Why both Japanese and Korean nationalists lust after Manchuria Options

[EazyMoney]

Seems like Manchuria has nothing do with them at all.
It beats me


Anyway, just a shoutout.


peace

[depthcharge]

well, japan puppeted it for a time. they had a lot of emigrants that went there. most of the early industry was japanese built. If chinese feel we have some right to mongolia, just imagine japanese feeling.

koreans? they feel like their ancestors lived there and got chased out.

[meitoufu]

Seems like Manchuria has nothing do with them at all.
It beats me


Anyway, just a shoutout.


peace

During WW2, Japanese generals called Manchuria the "lifeline of Japan".

[crabdonut]

Japan was sought by Japan during WWII, because Manchuria had a strategic location and offered natural resources. I'm not sure about Korean but I'm guessing the ancestor thing.

[Eidolon]

The Japanese want it for Lebensraum. In their eyes Japan is too small and prone to disaster - not exactly a land from which premier nations are built.

The Koreans have a sentimental attachment to it. Their nationalist historians like to trace Korean roots to a series of tribal confederations/kingdoms in Manchuria (Gojoseon, Goguryeo, etc.) So, they like to think that the land they lost over a thousand years ago might still be reclaimed. It gives Korean nationalism a goal to strive towards.

As for ourselves (Chinese), Manchuria is a strategic and economic acquisition. It is a gateway to the North China plains, and has historically been the land of our enemies and invaders. Our possession of it today symbolizes our triumph over them, and keeps China safe. Manchuria in another nation's hands threatens us greatly - as four out of the five foreign dynasties that managed to conquer parts of China (or all of it) rode out of this land, and it was a general headache for past emperors. To prevent a repeat of history, Manchuria must not be allowed to fall into other nations' hands. To this end, we should develop the region's economy and encourage even more patriotic Chinese to migrate into the area.

This post has been edited by Eidolon: Jun 10 2009, 10:15 PM

[depthcharge]

Manchuria is definitely strategic for us. It means we get to bottle up both mongolia and korea, our two most favorite neighbors

In Han Chinese hands our history in Manchuria really begins after 1912. There's even a drama series about this migration 闯关东. Japanese followed very soon in the 20's and 30's. This is another reason Japan feels naggy about Manchuria. Don't forget in 60's chinese discovered 大庆 oil fields in manchuria, propelling us to become Asia's biggest oil producer. If Japan knew there was oil there in the 40's they wouldn't have needed to attack pearl harbor... Manchuria is a national pain for Japanese. They just try not to think about it.

[Suijen]

^ Solid post.

[JohnnyReb]

The Japanese want it for Lebensraum. In their eyes Japan is too small and prone to disaster - not exactly a land from which premier nations are built.

The Koreans have a sentimental attachment to it. Their nationalist historians like to trace Korean roots to a series of tribal confederations/kingdoms in Manchuria (Gojoseon, Goguryeo, etc.) So, they like to think that the land they lost over a thousand years ago might still be reclaimed. It gives Korean nationalism a goal to strive towards.

As for ourselves (Chinese), Manchuria is a strategic and economic acquisition. It is a gateway to the North China plains, and has historically been the land of our enemies and invaders. Our possession of it today symbolizes our triumph over them, and keeps China safe. Manchuria in another nation's hands threatens us greatly - as four out of the five foreign dynasties that managed to conquer parts of China (or all of it) rode out of this land, and it was a general headache for past emperors. To prevent a repeat of history, Manchuria must not be allowed to fall into other nations' hands. To this end, we should develop the region's economy and encourage even more patriotic Chinese to migrate into the area.

Excellent post.

[zaza9000]

The Japanese want it for Lebensraum. In their eyes Japan is too small and prone to disaster - not exactly a land from which premier nations are built.

The Koreans have a sentimental attachment to it. Their nationalist historians like to trace Korean roots to a series of tribal confederations/kingdoms in Manchuria (Gojoseon, Goguryeo, etc.) So, they like to think that the land they lost over a thousand years ago might still be reclaimed. It gives Korean nationalism a goal to strive towards.

As for ourselves (Chinese), Manchuria is a strategic and economic acquisition. It is a gateway to the North China plains, and has historically been the land of our enemies and invaders. Our possession of it today symbolizes our triumph over them, and keeps China safe. Manchuria in another nation's hands threatens us greatly - as four out of the five foreign dynasties that managed to conquer parts of China (or all of it) rode out of this land, and it was a general headache for past emperors. To prevent a repeat of history, Manchuria must not be allowed to fall into other nations' hands. To this end, we should develop the region's economy and encourage even more patriotic Chinese to migrate into the area.

Although I dislike China's occupation of Manchuria, I agree with this posting - it sums up well China's strategic interests and plans in Manchuria.

By the way, how many Manchurians speak manchurian today? I read from China Daily that there are few hundred old women -manzu ren - speak Manchurian? Is that true?

First is Manchuria and Manchurians to vanish, next is Southern Mongolia and Southern Mongolians, then, Tibet and Eastern Turkestan. That is why Dalai Lama is mad about Chinese occupation of Tibet and migration of Han Chinese there. So sad! But I do not blame the Chinese. The Chinese are smart people, and they know that they must fight for these lands until their last drop of blood. On the other hand, Tibetans are naive and stupid - they think that their praying to their Buddhas will liberate their land from Chinese occupation. That will not happen. No nation should give up their piece of land without fight. In this sense, I really admire the Chinese people - they are smart.

[Manders]

There is no "occupation" of China's Dongbei anymore than an American occupation of New England. No foreign power is capable of wresting any territory away from China.

[EazyMoney]

Then We forgot to ask what those Manchurians want? I know they don't want Korea and Japan.
They wanted China.

[Eidolon]

Although I dislike China's occupation of Manchuria, I agree with this posting - it sums up well China's strategic interests and plans in Manchuria.

By the way, how many Manchurians speak manchurian today? I read from China Daily that there are few hundred old women -manzu ren - speak Manchurian? Is that true?

First is Manchuria and Manchurians to vanish, next is Southern Mongolia and Southern Mongolians, then, Tibet and Eastern Turkestan. That is why Dalai Lama is mad about Chinese occupation of Tibet and migration of Han Chinese there. So sad! But I do not blame the Chinese. The Chinese are smart people, and they know that they must fight for these lands until their last drop of blood. On the other hand, Tibetans are naive and stupid - they think that their praying to their Buddhas will liberate their land from Chinese occupation. That will not happen. No nation should give up their piece of land without fight. In this sense, I really admire the Chinese people - they are smart.

China's presence in Manchuria is about as much of an "occupation" as Europe's presence in America, probably even less so since Han Chinese were let in by the previous, legal owners of the land (Manchus) themselves, whereas America was taken from the Red Indians by a combination of violence and deception.

Time for a history lesson. The reality is that at the end of the 19th century, there was a race between the regional powers (China, Russia, Japan) for possession of Manchuria, which up to that point had been sparsely populated - like America, Canada, and Australia before European colonization. Yes, there were native people, but by the standards of the 19th century, there was room for many more people, so it was up to the competition to see who would ultimately control it.

The Manchu rulers themselves, who by that point were sinicized and faced with increasing pressure from the Chinese revolutionaries for being ineffective rulers and losing Chinese land to foreign empires, decided as a last ditch strategic effort to migrate Han Chinese into Manchuria in the hopes that it'll allow them to keep a hold of it. The Manchus eventually capitulated anyways; the Japanese, meanwhile, were irritated to no ends that the League of Nations refused to allow them to colonize Manchuria, even though their own country was overflowing with population (this policy was for the League's own interests - they didn't want the Japanese to colonize China, which at the time was a much easier country to boss around and exploit than Japan). Through independent action by the Kwantung Army, the Japanese flaunted the League of Nations and conquered Manchuria anyways, swaying a number of Qing officers (including the "last emperor" Puyi, even though the Qing had already abdicated by that point) to their Manchukuo project, by which they intended to legitimize the creation of a new state into which they could then mass import Japanese as a ruling caste.

While the Japanese gained political and military control of Manchuria, the Han Chinese population, by that point, was already the vast majority in the area (something like 30 million). Most of this population consisted of farmers, which the Japanese treated like second-class citizens - kicking them off good land and offering it instead to new arrivals from Japan. All the while they did this, the Japanese were propagandizing that they were building in Manchuria a multi-ethnic nation where everyone was equal, which, as you might imagine, wasn't very effective among the Han Chinese because the reality on the ground was so different. At any case, the Japanese planned to import some five million or more Japanese into Manchuria within a few decades and began industrializing the area. Many Koreans (about a million or so) were also in Manchuria at this time; some were natives to the area, others were labor imported by the Japanese.

But Japan's vision of a new frontier for the Yamato race was not to be. Within two decades, Japan began losing the war. The Soviets, who resented the Japanese for defeating Russia earlier, took control of Manchuria and then handed it over to the Chinese Communists as a gesture of Communist brotherhood. Upon hearing of the Soviet advance, and knowing that they were hated by both the Russians and the Chinese, the Japanese migrant population (which I think at the time numbered around a million) fled Manchuria; in the chaos of their flight, they left many of their children behind. These children were later adopted by Chinese parents and many of them eventually went back to Japan once the Japanese instituted a program for repatriation. The Communists redistributed Manchurian land to loyal Chinese, and, making use of the industrial infrastructure the Japanese left behind, began using it as a base of operations from which to conquer the rest of China from the Nationalists. Koreans were allowed to stay partly as a gesture of goodwill towards the Korean Communists.

Throughout this period, the Manchus themselves tried their best to survive amidst the immense upheavals that were taking place in China. Having lost their status as a ruling caste, and fearing reprisal from the Han Chinese who suffered under them, many Manchus essentially abandoned their Manchu identity and faded into the Han Chinese population. Some of the elites went over to the Japanese side, but switched over again when the Chinese took over. There was a significant amount of intermarriage between Han and Manchu, to the extent that most Manchus could probably claim descent from both, and did so at their own convenience. For political reasons, they did not under the ROC (which was very anti-Manchu), and even not under the early PRC. Later, the PRC adopted the multi-ethnic China ideology and preferential policies for minorities; consequently, Manchus began reclaiming their ethnic status, but by that point many probably thought it wasn't worth it and either stayed as Han Chinese or claimed to be Manchu on paper but were practically Han Chinese. Today, Manchus make up about 10% of the population in Manchuria, or, perhaps more appropriately, Northeast China (Dongbei).

End of history lesson.

This post has been edited by Eidolon: Jun 11 2009, 01:02 PM

[EvilAsianDude]

Koreans dont want Manchuria nor is such a belief encouraged/supported by the government, media, mainstream etc.

There are however a lot of delusional Chinese nationalists who believe theres a secret plot to invade China and take Manchuria. Pure fantasy and paranoia. No different from those fabricated lies by Chinese netizens who believe Koreans are trying to steal Confucius, Chinese characters, Soymilk, Mao Zedong, Michael Phelps, the moon and slice bread.

Its like punching a brick wall and getting mad at it for hurting your hand. In Chinas case they make up lies about Korea in order to get mad at them and cry about Koreans hurting their feelings.

This post has been edited by EvilAsianDude: Jun 11 2009, 01:05 PM

[gaogouli]

Manchu decided to take over China.

Thats the link between you two.

[Eidolon]

Koreans dont want Manchuria nor is such a belief encouraged/supported by the government, media, mainstream etc.

There are however a lot of delusional Chinese nationalists who believe theres a secret plot to invade China and take Manchuria. Pure fantasy and paranoia. No different from those fabricated lies by Chinese netizens who believe Koreans are trying to steal Confucius, Chinese characters, Soymilk, Mao Zedong, Michael Phelps, the moon and slice bread.

Its like punching a brick wall and getting mad at it for hurting your hand. In Chinas case they make up lies about Korea in order to get mad at them and cry about Koreans hurting their feelings.

Korean politicians have asked for parts of Manchuria to be "returned" to them before. Do a search of the literature. You might learn something.

Manchu decided to take over China.

Thats the link between you two.

There's also the fact of intermarriage. Unpleasant, I know, but there are theories that Kangxi, the great Manchu emperor, had a Han mother, which would make him at least half-Han.

The story is murkier than you imagine.

This post has been edited by Eidolon: Jun 11 2009, 01:09 PM

[EazyMoney]

Manchu decided to take over China.

Thats the link between you two.

why they don't want to take over korea and Japan? yet both wanted Manchuria real bad. Seems like one sided love??

[gaogouli]

why they don't want to take over korea and Japan? yet both wanted Manchuria real bad. Seems like one sided love??

The difference is, Korea and Japan would want to take over Manchu.
But hell no, we don`t want to be taken over by Manchu like China.

Enjoy your Manchu love, Han Chinese.

[EvilAsianDude]

Korean politicians have asked for parts of Manchuria to be "returned" to them before. Do a search of the literature. You might learn something.

They are still in the minority. There are Japanese politicians who believe Nanking never happened. Alaskan politicians who believe Alaska should secede from America. African American politicians who believe Africans should be given half of America. Taiwanese politicians who believe Taiwan should be absorbed by the Japanese.

I know the concept of democracy might seem alien to you Chinese but in the free world, you are free to believe and say whatever you want. Just because a politician says something doesn't mean its supported by the mainstream.

[Eidolon]

They are still in the minority. There are Japanese politicians who believe Nanking never happened. Alaskan politicians who believe Alaska should secede from America. African American politicians who believe Africans should be given half of America. Taiwanese politicians who believe Taiwan should be absorbed by the Japanese.

I know the concept of democracy might seem alien to you Chinese but in the free world, you are free to believe and say whatever you want. Just because a politician says something doesn't mean its supported by the mainstream.

I don't know about the concept of democracy being alien to Chinese, but you seem to have a problem with reading comprehension. Where did anyone claim that the views are held by the mainstream? The thread refers to Korean nationalists, and even then, where did we say that *all* Korean nationalists claimed Manchuria?

The fact of the matter is, the claim exists, so pretending that it doesn't or that Chinese made it up is futile. Hell, some of your most prominent nationalist historians are involved in the claim. Look up Shin Chae-Ho.

You are free to believe whatever you want, and we are free to judge those beliefs.

This post has been edited by Eidolon: Jun 11 2009, 01:32 PM

[Eidolon]

The difference is, Korea and Japan would want to take over Manchu.
But hell no, we don`t want to be taken over by Manchu like China.

Enjoy your Manchu love, Han Chinese.

Sounds like sour grapes to me.

I don't deny that the Manchu conquest was a shameful period of Chinese history, but that's partly because the Chinese nation was yet to awaken. Most Chinese during that time couldn't care less who the emperors were because before the advent of nationalism, people were largely interested in their own local communities and thought only in terms of those communities. They didn't care about the Chinese nation-state because there was none; there was no unity, and therefore no strength. The Manchus walked all over us because we stabbed each other in the back with constant rebellions and a slew of traitors and turncoats (ie Wu Sangui), without whom the Manchus could not have triumphed.

Things are different, today, and hopefully will be in the future. Chinese people must understand that nationalism is their only defense against the machinations of foreign nations. The sooner they do, the better.

This post has been edited by Eidolon: Jun 11 2009, 01:47 PM