Islamic religion questions Options

[Ken]

I came across the following quote in today newspaper: "The (Islamic) law is very strict. Anyone who converts (to Christianity) receives three days time to reconsider. After that, he must be killed", said Muhammed Maarouf, 26, imam of the Kabul University mosque.

Can someone of the Muslim faith comment on whether this is a mainstream belief or one held by a minority or fringe element?

The context of the comment was a person converting to Christianity. Would the same consequence befall a person who chose to become a Hindu or any other non-Islamic religion or become an athiest?

[華夏無產]

I came across the following quote in today newspaper:  "The (Islamic) law is very strict.  Anyone who converts (to Christianity) receives three days time to reconsider.  After that, he must be killed", said Muhammed Maarouf, 26, imam of the Kabul University mosque.

  Can someone of the Muslim faith comment on whether this is a mainstream belief or one held by a minority or fringe element?

  The context of the comment was a person converting to Christianity.  Would the same consequence befall a person who chose to become a Hindu or any other non-Islamic religion or become an athiest?

Where'd you get that from, the Jew York Times? I don't think it's true among the mainstream. Only Islamic extremists would think such.

[PrismKnight7]

Islam is based on servitude and submission for the purpose of conquering new lands and people. Used by the Muhammadan Arabs to control their subjects who were like savages that only cared for sex and violence. It contains poetic language but the meaning is very demeaning(especially to women), and akward because the people who wrote the Koran were ignorant . The later scholars who interpreted Islam take a more civilized slant, but its still barbaric, desert myth in its bones.

[Ken]

I came across the following quote in today newspaper:  "The (Islamic) law is very strict.  Anyone who converts (to Christianity) receives three days time to reconsider.  After that, he must be killed", said Muhammed Maarouf, 26, imam of the Kabul University mosque.

  Can someone of the Muslim faith comment on whether this is a mainstream belief or one held by a minority or fringe element?

  The context of the comment was a person converting to Christianity.  Would the same consequence befall a person who chose to become a Hindu or any other non-Islamic religion or become an athiest?

Where'd you get that from, the Jew York Times? I don't think it's true among the mainstream. Only Islamic extremists would think such.

The quote came from an article in today's Dallas Morning News entitled "Religious RIGHT--In Afganistan, evangelicals and Muslims are in a potentially deadly standoff" "Where does my religion stop and yours begin?"

I am trying to learn truth on this issue, hopefully from practicing Muslims. I have read of the virtual religious war that is being waged in the Netherlands and find this entire issue most troubling.

[abdulrachid]

Question :


What is the Islamic ruling on someone who is a Muslim(who is in Islam) but converts to some other religion later on???

Answer :

Praise be to Allaah.

Apostasy (riddah) means disbelieving after being Muslim. There is no bad deed that cancels out all good deeds apart from apostasy. If a person dies in a state of apostasy all his good deeds will be wiped out, but if he returns to Islam, the reward for his good deeds will be restored and he does not have to make up any prayers or fasts that he missed during the period of his apostasy.

Shaykh al-Islam [Ibn Taymiyah] said:

With regard to apostasy from Islam, whereby a person becomes a kaafir, whether a mushrik or a Jew or Christian, if he dies in that state then all his good deeds will be wiped out, according to scholarly consensus, as the Qur’aan says in more than one place. For example Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter”

[al-Baqarah 2:217]

“And whosoever disbelieves in Faith, [i.e. in the Oneness of Allaah and in all the other Articles of Faith i.e. His (Allaah’s) Angels, His Holy Books, His Messengers, the Day of Resurrection and Al‑Qadar (Divine Preordainments)], then fruitless is his work”

[al-Maa’idah 5:5]

“But if they had joined in worship others with Allaah, all that they used to do would have been of no benefit to them”

[al-An’aam 6:88]

Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 4/257, 268)

With regard to the shar’i rulings on apostates, if the apostate does not return to Islam, he must be executed.

It was narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood said: the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a Muslim who bears witness that there is no god except Allaah and that I am the Messenger of Allaah except in one of three cases: a soul for a soul (i.e., punishment for murder), a married man or woman who commits adultery, and one who leaves his religion and separates from the jamaa’ah (main body of Muslims).”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6484; Muslim, 1676

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6922).

Then if he is executed, he has died as a kaafir, so he is not to be washed or shrouded; the funeral prayer is not to be offered for him, and he is not to be buried in the Muslim graveyard. On the Day of Resurrection he will be one of the people of Hell who will abide therein for eternity.

The earth rejected the body of an apostate during the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), as a lesson and a warning to the onlookers.

It was narrated that Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: There was a Christian man who became Muslim. He used to recite al-Baqarah and Aal ‘Imraan, and he used to write down (the revelation) for the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Then he returned to Christianity and he used to say, “Muhammad knows nothing but what I have written for him.” Then Allah caused him to die, and the people buried him, but in the morning they saw that the earth had thrown his body out. They said, “This is the doing of Muhammad and his companions. They dug the grave of our companion and took his body out of it because he had run away

from them.” They again dug the grave deeply for him, but in the morning they again saw that the earth had thrown his body out. They said, “This is the doing of Muhammad and his companions. They dug the grave of our companion and threw his body outside it, for he had run away from them.” They dug the grave for him as deep as they could, but in the morning they again saw that the earth had thrown his body out. So they realized that what had befallen him was not done by human beings and they had to leave him thrown (on the ground).

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3421; Muslim, 2781.

And Allaah knows best.



Islam Q&A (www.islam-qa.com)

[Ken]

Question :


What is the Islamic ruling on someone who is a Muslim(who is in Islam) but converts to some other religion later on???

Answer :

Praise be to Allaah. 

Apostasy (riddah) means disbelieving after being Muslim. There is no bad deed that cancels out all good deeds apart from apostasy. If a person dies in a state of apostasy all his good deeds will be wiped out, but if he returns to Islam, the reward for his good deeds will be restored and he does not have to make up any prayers or fasts that he missed during the period of his apostasy.

Shaykh al-Islam [Ibn Taymiyah] said:

With regard to apostasy from Islam, whereby a person becomes a kaafir, whether a mushrik or a Jew or Christian, if he dies in that state then all his good deeds will be wiped out, according to scholarly consensus, as the Qur’aan says in more than one place. For example Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter”

[al-Baqarah 2:217]

“And whosoever disbelieves in Faith, [i.e. in the Oneness of Allaah and in all the other Articles of Faith i.e. His (Allaah’s) Angels, His Holy Books, His Messengers, the Day of Resurrection and Al‑Qadar (Divine Preordainments)], then fruitless is his work”

[al-Maa’idah 5:5]

“But if they had joined in worship others with Allaah, all that they used to do would have been of no benefit to them”

[al-An’aam 6:88]

Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 4/257, 268)

With regard to the shar’i rulings on apostates, if the apostate does not return to Islam, he must be executed.

It was narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood said: the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a Muslim who bears witness that there is no god except Allaah and that I am the Messenger of Allaah except in one of three cases: a soul for a soul (i.e., punishment for murder), a married man or woman who commits adultery, and one who leaves his religion and separates from the jamaa’ah (main body of Muslims).”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6484; Muslim, 1676

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” 

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6922).

Then if he is executed, he has died as a kaafir, so he is not to be washed or shrouded; the funeral prayer is not to be offered for him, and he is not to be buried in the Muslim graveyard. On the Day of Resurrection he will be one of the people of Hell who will abide therein for eternity.

The earth rejected the body of an apostate during the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), as a lesson and a warning to the onlookers.

It was narrated that Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: There was a Christian man who became Muslim. He used to recite al-Baqarah and Aal ‘Imraan, and he used to write down (the revelation) for the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Then he returned to Christianity and he used to say, “Muhammad knows nothing but what I have written for him.” Then Allah caused him to die, and the people buried him, but in the morning they saw that the earth had thrown his body out. They said, “This is the doing of Muhammad and his companions. They dug the grave of our companion and took his body out of it because he had run away

from them.” They again dug the grave deeply for him, but in the morning they again saw that the earth had thrown his body out. They said, “This is the doing of Muhammad and his companions. They dug the grave of our companion and threw his body outside it, for he had run away from them.” They dug the grave for him as deep as they could, but in the morning they again saw that the earth had thrown his body out. So they realized that what had befallen him was not done by human beings and they had to leave him thrown (on the ground).

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3421; Muslim, 2781.

And Allaah knows best.



Islam Q&A (www.islam-qa.com)

It seems from these texts that a Muslim who becomes apostate may be allowed to live his life apart from Islam. Or, depending on whose interpretation is applied, the apostate may be killed for leaving Islam.

I respectfully ask, is application of this death penalty a mainstream practice (belief) or is it considered an extreme or minority position among Muslims?

What sects would consider the death penalty appropriate? Which would be more tolerant?

[Thanol]

Why is this in Chinese chat? There aren't too many chinese who are muslim.

[Ken]

Why is this in Chinese chat? There aren't too many chinese who are muslim.

While the number of Muslims as a percentage of total population is low, it is substantial: over 20 million Muslims in China.

Furthermore, understanding these issues is timely and will grow in importance with time.

This post has been edited by Ken: Dec 13 2004, 07:55 PM

[Nordicman]

Yes, according to mainstream, conservative Islamic theology there is the death penalty for leaving Islam. Many ex-Muslims live in fear for their lives even today. Check out this site:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/index.htm

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/

News about Islam:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/

[User1]

Yes, according to mainstream, conservative Islamic theology there is the death penalty for leaving Islam. Many ex-Muslims live in fear for their lives even today. Check out this site:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/index.htm

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/

News about Islam:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/

I always knew you weren't Chinese, Frontier_Relic/PrismKnight7. These links, the exact links Frontier_Relic has on CNA as his signature, just proves it. You were the one who was egging the Chinazis on, even if inadvertently, feeding them false and inaccurate information.. that anyone speaking an Austronesian language, SE Asians, and southern Chinese are all full negritos..
Do you even know what a negrito is?
Who are you on Stormfront?

This post has been edited by User1: Dec 14 2004, 02:43 PM

[abdulrachid]

Salaamoe alaikoem warahmatoe Allah.

Brother, you can't choose in Islam, you take it all, and you surrender your will to Allah.

The death penalty is very appropriate.

We hate this things, that's because we have no knwoledge about it, because if you're going to study this matters, you will understand it better, insha'Allah.


Then you will know that Allah's laws are perfect.

And Allah swt knows best.

[abdulrachid]

These are very bad sites, they contain only lyes, and misinterpreation.

Let the ones who maid these sites by punished for there deads.

Amien.

[華夏無產]

After finding out what "CNA" is, I contacted a member there. Those are not the same links as were in his signature. This member also further informed me, that "frontier_relic" has an interest in western religions from a sociological aspect.

You were the one who was egging the Chinazis on, even if inadvertently, feeding them false and inaccurate information.. that anyone speaking an Austronesian language, SE Asians, and southern Chinese are all full negritos..

Austronesians are NOT Chinese.
Furthermore, some southern Chinese DO have some admixture of proto-Malay (in costal areas), and Daic blood. The Zhuang ethnic group and several others, including the matrifocal minority ethnicities are indeed pure Daic or Mon-Khmer stock.

This post has been edited by 華夏無產: Dec 14 2004, 04:03 PM

[User1]

After finding out what "CNA" is, I contacted a member there.  Those are not the same links as were in his signature.  This member also further informed me, that "frontier_relic" has an interest in western religions from a sociological aspect.

You were the one who was egging the Chinazis on, even if inadvertently, feeding them false and inaccurate information.. that anyone speaking an Austronesian language, SE Asians, and southern Chinese are all full negritos..

Austronesians are NOT Chinese.
Furthermore, some southern Chinese DO have some admixture of proto-Malay (in costal areas), and Daic blood. The Zhuang ethnic group and several others, including the matrifocal minority ethnicities are indeed pure Daic or Mon-Khmer stock.

Give it a rest. You guys have been led by a White racialist qwack who has spread dissention between northern and southern Chinese. The feud between north and south is all his doing.

Those are the exact same links. "ApostatesofIslam.org"... "FaithFreedom.org".. That's one linked organization. GO check

And the three even talk the same..

PrismKnight7 calls southern Chinese negritos, just like Frontier_Relic.
How can Frontier_Relic be Chinese when he calls Shanghainess negritos? What Chinese in their right mind would call Shanghainess negritos?
And how they use the same kind phrases such as "Mohammadan Arab".. What Chinese says that?

If this isn't Frontier_Relic, with his bumbling wax philosophical attempt that betrays his stupidity, then I don't know who is. I mean you go to Harvard right? It doesn't take a genius to see that Frontier_Relic writes in the exact same way with the exact same phrases and ideas:

A lot of people in the forums dont seem to take a realistic stance and are more involved with ethnic or cultural hubris, than even their own personal well-being. They are stressed by pursing 'liberalization movements' for their people like the Tibetan mongrels and the Hmong monkeys. The so-called, more evolved Mongoloids in East Asia supposedly claim their culture is superior than everyone elses(Koreans and Chin'os), but dislike connecting it with their false sense of culture or admitting that is was a big part of it(ie foot-binding, female infanticide, child-prostitution, chauvinism etc). The collective thinking of these people takes away from their own individual thoughts, because they are not adequately able to discern or criticize the society they live in(if in their homeland), or they adapt a cynical view of others not part of their group. They view national propaganda or regional folklore as a truth, over scientific study or logical reasoning. They claim to be different from other mongoloids, but without any reasonal explanation, often depicting their ancestors as celestial beings or dragons, and claim to be descendants of upper class people. They dont associate themselves with the majority of their group, who are often illiterate, under oppression, or tepid habitual existence. On social matters they emphasize their customs as a natural habit and are not able to formulate other varied methods of socializing. They reject what is different, and respect whatever is tired and true, over innovative, in terms of thinking. Even in modern life with new possibilities for humankind, they are more concerned with a global competition of their their home country against others in commercial matters. In the personal level they can either feel extreme depression, or maniacal illusions, and any middle ground they find themselves in is due to confusion and objects of reality they have no explored for whatever reason.

This post has been edited by User1: Dec 14 2004, 04:48 PM

[華夏無產]

After finding out what "CNA" is, I contacted a member there.  Those are not the same links as were in his signature.  This member also further informed me, that "frontier_relic" has an interest in western religions from a sociological aspect.

You were the one who was egging the Chinazis on, even if inadvertently, feeding them false and inaccurate information.. that anyone speaking an Austronesian language, SE Asians, and southern Chinese are all full negritos..

Austronesians are NOT Chinese.
Furthermore, some southern Chinese DO have some admixture of proto-Malay (in costal areas), and Daic blood. The Zhuang ethnic group and several others, including the matrifocal minority ethnicities are indeed pure Daic or Mon-Khmer stock.

Give it a rest. You guys have been led by a White racialist qwack who has spread dissention between northern and southern Chinese. The feud between north and south is all his doing.

Those are the exact same links. "ApostatesofIslam.org"... "FaithFreedom.org".. That's one linked organization. GO check

And the three even talk the same..

PrismKnight7 calls southern Chinese negritos, just like Frontier_Relic.
How can Frontier_Relic be Chinese when he calls Shanghainess negritos? What Chinese in their right mind would call Shanghainess negritos?
And how they use the same kind phrases such as "Mohammadan Arab".. What Chinese says that?

If this isn't Frontier_Relic, with his bumbling wax philosophical attempt that betrays his stupidity, then I don't know who is. I mean you go to Harvard right? It doesn't take a genius to see that Frontier_Relic writes in the exact same way with the exact same phrases and ideas:

A lot of people in the forums dont seem to take a realistic stance and are more involved with ethnic or cultural hubris, than even their own personal well-being. They are stressed by pursing 'liberalization movements' for their people like the Tibetan mongrels and the Hmong monkeys. The so-called, more evolved Mongoloids in East Asia supposedly claim their culture is superior than everyone elses(Koreans and Chin'os), but dislike connecting it with their false sense of culture or admitting that is was a big part of it(ie foot-binding, female infanticide, child-prostitution, chauvinism etc). The collective thinking of these people takes away from their own individual thoughts, because they are not adequately able to discern or criticize the society they live in(if in their homeland), or they adapt a cynical view of others not part of their group. They view national propaganda or regional folklore as a truth, over scientific study or logical reasoning. They claim to be different from other mongoloids, but without any reasonal explanation, often depicting their ancestors as celestial beings or dragons, and claim to be descendants of upper class people. They dont associate themselves with the majority of their group, who are often illiterate, under oppression, or tepid habitual existence. On social matters they emphasize their customs as a natural habit and are not able to formulate other varied methods of socializing. They reject what is different, and respect whatever is tired and true, over innovative, in terms of thinking. Even in modern life with new possibilities for humankind, they are more concerned with a global competition of their their home country against others in commercial matters. In the personal level they can either feel extreme depression, or maniacal illusions, and any middle ground they find themselves in is due to confusion and objects of reality they have no explored for whatever reason.

Any retard can realize that PrismKnight7 is simply a moron Latino who is imitating another's style, while having no scientific basis in his thoughts.

[User1]

Not as retarded as a bunch of Chinazis being led by a Latino or Nordicman or whatever he is all this time. What a joke. And why would a Latino want to copy Frontier_Relic's style is beyond me.

This post has been edited by User1: Dec 14 2004, 05:20 PM

[華夏無產]

Not as retarded as a bunch of Chinazis being led by a Latino or Nordicman or whatever he is all this time. What a joke. And why would a Latino want to copy Frontier_Relic's style is beyond me.

Perhaps because he wants to "mock" those "Chinazis", and discredit them by making them look stupid. Furthermore, if you know anything about the English language, you'd be able to tell how different the anthopological perspectives of PrismKnight7 and Frontier are (i just registered there, to check it out, btw).

And I must say, you've been looking for a way to disprove these facts, just because they do not suit you.

This post has been edited by 華夏無產: Dec 14 2004, 05:30 PM

[User1]

Not as retarded as a bunch of Chinazis being led by a Latino or Nordicman or whatever he is all this time. What a joke. And why would a Latino want to copy Frontier_Relic's style is beyond me.

Perhaps because he wants to "mock" those "Chinazis", and discredit them by making them look stupid. Furthermore, if you know anything about the English language, you'd be able to tell how different the anthopological perspectives of PrismKnight7 and Frontier are (i just registered there, to check it out, btw).

And I must say, you've been looking for a way to disprove these facts, just because they do not suit you.

They have the same theories buddy.. Go search up PrismKnight's posts..

And don't you ever wonder why Frontier_Relic doesn't know jack $hit about Chinese culture, not really. I've never seen him type Chinese or post a pic.

How does it feel to be led by a Latino/Nordicman.. It just proves that Chinazis are a buncha morons..

How did you get into Harvard?

This post has been edited by User1: Dec 14 2004, 05:34 PM

[Fil-Am]

Not as retarded as a bunch of Chinazis being led by a Latino or Nordicman or whatever he is all this time. What a joke. And why would a Latino want to copy Frontier_Relic's style is beyond me.

Perhaps because he wants to "mock" those "Chinazis", and discredit them by making them look stupid. Furthermore, if you know anything about the English language, you'd be able to tell how different the anthopological perspectives of PrismKnight7 and Frontier are (i just registered there, to check it out, btw).

And I must say, you've been looking for a way to disprove these facts, just because they do not suit you.

They have the same theories buddy.. Go search up PrismKnight's posts..

And don't you ever wonder why Frontier_Relic doesn't know jack $hit about Chinese culture, not really. I've never seen him type Chinese or post a pic.

How does it feel to be led by a Latino/Nordicman.. It just proves that Chinazis are a buncha morons..

How did you get into Harvard?

This post has been edited by Fil-Am: Dec 14 2004, 08:34 PM

[華夏無產]

I will give you one example. In this example, frontier_relic and prismknight7 fully contradict each other.

An excerpt from a post by PrismKnight7

These molecular studies show that the eastern part of China, Shandong in this case was originally composed of non-Sinitic(Sino-Tibetan/wet-rice agriculturalist/HuaXia). Therefore we can conclude that the Dong Yi are a product of the westward moving proto-Sinics and aboriginal southeast derived populations/ or Caucasian admixes. Post more information or sources.

A post on the other forum, combined with a correspondence by frontier relic provides the rebuttal:

Various ancient DNA studies have also attempted toreconstruct population movements in Asia, and in particulary in China and Mongolia (Oota et al. 1999; Wang etal. 2000; Keyser-Tracqui et al. 2003). The results of twoof these studies initially suggested that 2500 years ago thehuman population from Linzi, Shandong province, hadgenetic affinities with present Europeans (Wang et al.2000). However, a reanalysis of the Linzi sequences in thelight of the HVS-I (hypervariable control region 1 of themtDNA) substitutions associated to specific mtDNAhaplogroups(Yaoetal.2003),demonstratestheopposite—that the ancient population did not have anyspecific affinity to the European gene pool, and instead isrelated to modern southern Chinese populations.

This is just ONE example out of many of PrismKnight's bogus theories. The fact that he misplaces the racial nucleus of Chinese in what were, in ancient times, proto-Mon-Khmer races, also contradict with Relic's theories.

But I guess, throwing together a bunch of $hit for evidence doesn't prevent you from seeing what you wanted to see. You didn't seem able to be able to put two and two together to figure out that the anti-china extremist(s) freelance and poison_arrow were the same. But whenever a pro-china poster comes up on this or other forums, you somehow have to discredit him...

also, LTY has a university minor in anthropology or something. 80% of his research on ancient china was done independently of him.

as for "culture", your friend UrbanPoet doesn't exactly practice much chinese culture, but you're willing to let him by. A double standard perhaps?

This post has been edited by 華夏無產: Dec 14 2004, 09:43 PM