China may be open to democracy in the future Options

[KraterosHellas]

here is the full translation of the report in English, lets discuss the report, its content, connotations, feasibility of its intended goals. without our political orientation and personal differences. deep down I hope Dr, Sun Yet Sen's dream and his idealogy didn't died.


The Chinese Communist Party meets amid calls for democratization

The Plenum of the Communist Party of China opened in Beijing Friday, Oct. 15

Premier Wen Jiabao has created the surprise early October 15 with unpublished reports to U.S. television network CNN censored China, AP / Virginia Mayo
The Plenum of the Communist Party of China opened in Beijing Friday, Oct. 15 admids multiple calls for democratization in China, encouraged by the award of the Nobel Peace dissident Liu Xiaobo a week ago. Officially, the five-year plan 2011-2015, which is on the agenda of the plenary session taking place behind closed doors in a large hotel in downtown Beijing. But it could be the scene of intense political battles.

The 12th Five Year Plan should contain few surprises and validate the policy now to promote domestic demand to reduce the dependence of China's exports and improve social security coverage to avoid a further deepening the gap between rich and the poor. However, political reforms should generate debate, probably alive, as we approach the end of the mandates of President Hu Jintao and Premier Wen Jiabao in 2013

UNPUBLISHED REPORTS

Wen, generally perceived as more liberal than Mr. Hu, was created in early October surprise with unpublished reports to U.S. television network CNN, censored in China. "I believe freedom of expression is essential in all countries, he said, calls for democracy and freedom will become irresistible." "Recent statements by Wen Jiabao represent the opinion of a faction within the party that hopes to move quickly [on the reform plan], but this faction does not necessarily prevail, "said Willy Lam of the Chinese University of Hong Kong

This week, former senior officials of the CPC and Chinese media have challenged the government in a very direct style petition denouncing the lack of freedom of expression. "If the Communist Party did not reform itself, if not transformed, he will die a natural death, " say the authors of the letter published on the Internet before being cleared by the censors. On Friday, another bold letter gathering hundreds of signatures calling on leaders to free the Nobel Liu Xiaobo and other dissenters, and to "implement a peaceful social transition to make China a democratic country, endowed with rule of law worthy of the name

A week after the award of the Nobel Peace Prize, Beijing is still furious. Blaming the West, the Global Times newspaper, close to the regime, insisted Friday on the "progressive political reform" under way in China and "stability [that] the Chinese cherish

u're going to see more of this in the future as the common people become wealthier and more educated and internationally exposed. it will come gradually and peacefully. nothing like the french revolution. i hope the pro-reform faction does prevail. if not now we'll definitely see more of them in the next generation of leaders.

[elleX0]

What ever form of government evolves in China, it will never imitate the American Democratic model. Each country has to develop a government that suits it people, its culture, its religion, its philosophy, its effectiveness to rule. China has 1.5 billion people and not all of them are law abiding types, and so the laws have to be tailored accordingly.

[PeterKChan]

I am OK and support democracy in China (as I assume this was the same vision Dr. Sun had in his days), only if:

1) the democracy is on Chinese people's own terms (no foreign influences or infiltration)
2) China be allowed to continue expanding its military and never become a 'lap dog' (Mao's term) to the West, jewish, etc.
3) the currency and economy be kept in its original structure and not align totally with West (just look at South Korea and Japan being at West's mercy)

[elleX0]

China should draw up their own Civil Rights, or Bill of Rights to suite China and to counter-balance the Universal Convention of Human Rights.

[KraterosHellas]

China should draw up their own Civil Rights, or Bill of Rights to suite China and to counter-balance the Universal Convention of Human Rights.

i think the prc will allow at least that.

[Suijen]

China should draw up their own Civil Rights, or Bill of Rights to suite China and to counter-balance the Universal Convention of Human Rights.

You mean its constitution? The PRC still follows the UN Human Rights Charter; it's just that it emphasizes some things more than others.

[elleX0]

I did not realise there have been several replies that I should be making. There can be some confusion about the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that nation states have signed up to and tried to observe. This Declaration was drawn up by Western Nations to suit their vision of what "Human Rights" should be according to their own standards, which is a Western Christian Standard.

Some of us (civilians) in Britain seem to get the impression that these Human Rights seem to protect the criminal more than it protects the innocent victim. This may sound crazy, but in Britain we cannot deport some Jihadist terrorist criminals (proven in a court of law as such) to their country of origin because their original country still observe the death penalty and so we would be violating the criminals Human Rights. So we have to keep such criminals in Britain, provide them with all the "welfare benefits" housing, medical, schooling, etc at taxpayers expense. Most of them even have a higher standard of living as a convicted criminal out on license than the local inhabitants. This is crazy.

We even have to let in known murderers and other criminals because of the EU laws of immigration and we cannot stop them. Our national sovereignty has been neutralised because of the Human Rights conventions and EU regulations. It has become farcical. So much so that Britain has raised the possibility of writing our own "Bill of Rights" in order to regain some independence for our legal system. This is what I mean that the Human Rights Declaration has been badly written and has neutered national sovereignty. This must change.

Also the Islamic Ummah has sought to draft their own codes for Islamic Human Rights and it is quite different from that of the UN version. To compare go to this link:
Universal Islamic Declaration of Human Rights

China's problems are different from that in Europe and America and they should have their own codes to follow. It should be similar but it should be adjusted to fit Eastern cultural needs.

[Suijen]

Canada has that problem also in deporting corrupt Chinese officials and businessmen back to China. Because their crimes are considered quite heinous, it is probable that they'd be executed, so Canada keeps the officials there for humanitarian reasons.

But as I understand it, the Human Rights Declaration is not enforceable, but really more of a set of aspirations for countries to follow.

[African]

Its good to be honest with what one says.

[ReindeerGirl]

Hi all,
It would be interesting to see how China would approach democracy. I'm sure it wont be the same style as the US and most likely better for that. Westerners often try to demonize communism but China has been redefining those definitions to uniquely fit China ( as democracy isnt the only way to have a successful government ).
It may also help bring more stability to the east asian region and help take away reasons for U.S. to be in SK and Japan. As a korean, it really bothers me for that region to be militiarily colonized by western powers. Id much rather prefer for them to leave. This isnt to say that they havent helped us (from Japan) but I mean, the entire reason Japan was on a rampage was to drive Britain, France, and Russia from our region.

I think its also essential to realize that democracy =/= western and communism =/= non western
Theyre just both paths to manage a country. If we really wanted to pick at it, neither forms of government are really asian at all. Communism is German (marx) and Lenin(RUssian) . Maybe China can create a new style thats none of those things! They kind of are...

SOrry for the scattered post!

[elleX0]

Hi all,
It would be interesting to see how China would approach democracy. I'm sure it wont be the same style as the US and most likely better for that. Westerners often try to demonize communism but China has been redefining those definitions to uniquely fit China ( as democracy isnt the only way to have a successful government ).
It may also help bring more stability to the east asian region and help take away reasons for U.S. to be in SK and Japan. As a korean, it really bothers me for that region to be militiarily colonized by western powers. Id much rather prefer for them to leave. This isnt to say that they havent helped us (from Japan) but I mean, the entire reason Japan was on a rampage was to drive Britain, France, and Russia from our region.

I think its also essential to realize that democracy =/= western and communism =/= non western
Theyre just both paths to manage a country. If we really wanted to pick at it, neither forms of government are really asian at all. Communism is German (marx) and Lenin(RUssian) . Maybe China can create a new style thats none of those things! They kind of are...

SOrry for the scattered post!

ReindeerGirl, you have actually expressed yourself well. Western democracy may fit America well, because of their religious, educational, historical, and cultural past, but it definitely is not suitable for places like China, or India, or Africa, where the history, culture, religion and history is so much different from that in the West. That America feels that their form of democracy should be adopted by all is sheer arrogance and stupidity. The mental attitudes of a common Chinese or Indian is entirely different from that of a caucasian walking around in Chicago or New York or Paris, so why should some alien system be imposed upon them? Let them evolved their own system which they have for the past 4000 year successfully or they would not be around today.

[x22x]

ReindeerGirl, you have actually expressed yourself well. Western democracy may fit America well, because of their religious, educational, historical, and cultural past, but it definitely is not suitable for places like China, or India, or Africa, where the history, culture, religion and history is so much different from that in the West. That America feels that their form of democracy should be adopted by all is sheer arrogance and stupidity. The mental attitudes of a common Chinese or Indian is entirely different from that of a caucasian walking around in Chicago or New York or Paris, so why should some alien system be imposed upon them? Let them evolved their own system which they have for the past 4000 year successfully or they would not be around today.

This dream of the whites for a "one government" system around the world has instigated a lot of catastrophic incidents which wiped out millions of innocent lives across the globe. So much sin and blood in their hands.

This post has been edited by x22x: Sep 5 2011, 03:42 PM

[elleX0]

This dream of the whites for a "one government" system around the world has instigated a lot of catastrophic incidents which wiped out millions of innocent lives across the globe. So much sin and blood in their hands.

x22, that must be the primitive tribal culture surfacing from the sub-conscious? Conformity?

[LoveNStrife]

The key is not how the government is chosen, but how interventionist the government is.

A democracy which controls every aspect your life is worse than a authoritarian regime which leaves you alone.

[freezingpoint]

The key is not how the government is chosen, but how interventionist the government is.

A democracy which controls every aspect your life is worse than a authoritarian regime which leaves you alone.

i disagree. Iran is a far better place to live in than the Congo and this is typical "totalitarian democracy" vs. "noninterventionist autocracy".

The military dictatorship in the Congo is so noninterventionist, if you get shot in the head with an AK-47 it won't care.

[LoveNStrife]

i disagree. Iran is a far better place to live in than the Congo and this is typical "totalitarian democracy" vs. "noninterventionist autocracy".

The military dictatorship in the Congo is so noninterventionist, if you get shot in the head with an AK-47 it won't care.

Well, personally I don't know much about Congo, but I would doubt your comparison is particularly apt. A country I regard as generally minimalist would be Switzerland. As a city, Hong Kong is a good example, too.

China is in a strange sort of way libertarian - For instance, it's far easier to start up a restaurant in China than in the US. This is because the government does not have enough power to enforce its regulations. Right now, it's still possible to succeed in China as an entrepreneur. In a decade, this will no longer be possible.

I don't know much about Iran, but from what I understand, the government survives by "bread and circus". The economy is wrecked, it's running out of oil, etc.

A good example of interventionism would be France and other European countries. Some people like France. There's no doubt, however, that the European economy is hampered by excessive rules and regulations. I personally would not want to live there.

When bureaucracy becomes too big, it drains productive power away from society. Sometimes, this merely stifles the dynamism of the society. Sometimes, it leads to a hard fall when the government must radical downsize.

A quote from Mencius would be appropriate here:

尊賢使能，俊傑在位，則天下之士皆悅而願立於其朝矣。市廛而不征，法而不廛，則天下之商皆悅而願藏於其市矣。關譏而不征，則天下之旅皆悅而願出於其路矣。耕者助而不稅，則天下之農皆悅而願耕於其野矣。廛無夫里之布，則天下之民皆悅而願為之氓矣。信能行此五者，則鄰國之民仰之若父母矣。率其子弟，攻其父母，自生民以來，未有能濟者也。如此，則無敵於天下。無敵於天下者，天吏也。然而不王者，未之有也。

As we can see, Mencius was in favour of a low tax rate. When a country has low tax rates, then merchants will go to it from all over the world. People from other places would also want to immigrate there.

This is not to say there should be no tax. Instead, the correct tax rate is roughly ten percent:

曰：“夫貉，五穀不生，惟黍生之。無城郭、宮室、宗廟、祭祀之禮，無諸侯幣帛饔飧，無百官有司，故二十取一而足也。今居中國，去人倫，無君子，如之何其可也？陶以寡，且不可以為國，況無君子乎？欲輕之於堯舜之道者，大貉小貉也；欲重之於堯舜之道者，大桀小桀也。”

Both Switzerland and Hong Kong have slightly higher tax rates than this, but they approximate Mencius's recommendation. These are also two well-known, prosperous small places, which have flourished despite having few natural resources.

This post has been edited by LoveNStrife: Sep 6 2011, 05:42 PM

[martin_nuke]

Democracy means freedom of Religion which Buddhism, Christianity and Islam will have freedom to practice and will spread very fast but is PRC ready for that?

This post has been edited by martin_nuke: Sep 6 2011, 07:08 PM

[LoveNStrife]

Democracy means freedom of Religion which Buddhism, Christianity and Islam will have freedom to practice and will spread very fast but is PRC ready for that?

Yes, if China became democratic, then religion will become the center of Chinese political, social, and cultural life, just like Korea or the US.

I'm not sure which religion will dominate, though. I think Christianity already has a foothold in China which cannot be easily shaken, but China will not become a Christian-majority country like South Korea. Current politics favours Buddhism - I have great hopes for it.

[port19]

Take for example Greece..the root of democracy?? Now it's CHAOS there! We also don't know who is now in charge there? One guy say this, the other guy says that. Almost monthly you have demonstrations. Nobody is doing work but keep on demonstrating. And even in democracy, they afraid of enacting a referendum(basic right of democracy) to consult the people on majority of issues. Look at UK PM, stopping referendum plan in parliment when their own people calls for it. Greece as well, stopping referendum and has to take orders from Germans & Frenchies. Greece is now like a slave country.

[KraterosHellas]

Take for example Greece..the root of democracy?? Now it's CHAOS there! We also don't know who is now in charge there? One guy say this, the other guy says that. Almost monthly you have demonstrations. Nobody is doing work but keep on demonstrating. And even in democracy, they afraid of enacting a referendum(basic right of democracy) to consult the people on majority of issues. Look at UK PM, stopping referendum plan in parliment when their own people calls for it. Greece as well, stopping referendum and has to take orders from Germans & Frenchies. Greece is now like a slave country.

the problem with europe right now is the LACK of democracy. the EU have been continuosly and incrementally scraping away national democracy and self-determination in its constituent member states for a while now. it was politcally motivated and now it's failing eocnomically. EU is basically a leviathan without its head. it's autocratic within (which is not healthy model for a a group of 27 different countries and cultures) and interally dysfunctional. i thinkt he best model for china is to keep the strong autocratic exterior but build democracy at the domestic level so u don't get anything like what's happening in the EU