New Theory on Angkor, Who were the last Varman kings? Options

[LoveIsAllAround]

Cambodia is Country name and Khmer is its people of cause there is also some of other ethnic as well...~ ^^ but it was call Khmer because the inscription was found is in Khmer language not in Chinese,Tai, or other languages.. ^^

It sounds like Khmer is just ancient nationality, not even an ethnic. LOL

Even today, you use Khmer as nationality, everybody no matter their ethnic background in Cambodia are Khmer.

[LoveIsAllAround]

While look at your Avator and don't be ashamed of Thai who trying to be Chinese!! ^^ Anyways Kong Xi fu-k Cai!!!

It's not Thai members problem if you have Chinese blood or not. We really don't care. But it's you khmer to start this 'blood maniac' first. Don't ack like some Lao trolls, when they lose they will say all Thai members are Chinese (true Thais dont' bash on them) LOL Now, Khmer member started this same lao shiet, saying Thai members can't discuss becos we are Chinese. Damn, look at yourselves, Many Khmer Chens in here. No Thais fuking care!!!

[SEAhistory]

Most of the Khmer language inscriptions are found in the far south, including Angkor Borei. In the early 7th century they indicate strong religious and social structures, And analysis of their distribution throughout the 7th century show gradual movement northward.

[SabaiSabai]

Most of the Khmer language inscriptions are found in the far south, including Angkor Borei. In the early 7th century they indicate strong religious and social structures, And analysis of their distribution throughout the 7th century show gradual movement northward.

Why lie? The early inscriptions found using the "Khmer" language was used to list slaves and possessions. Lol

[BinjbinjKai]

Why lie? The early inscriptions found using the "Khmer" language was used to list slaves and possessions. Lol

Wow! You are so very racist Thai. You must of really hate the Khmer or something?

[SEAhistory]

Why lie? The early inscriptions found using the "Khmer" language was used to list slaves and possessions. Lol

And later Thai took it because it was so freaking awesome?

[SEAhistory]

Can someone please explain me this. The first inscription found on Surat Thani was this one:



How the hell does it relate to Angkor?

[SabaiSabai]

Wow! You are so very racist Thai. You must of really hate the Khmer or something?

shows how little you know about the subject. Nothing racist about my post. The first inscriptions found with this language was to list slaves and possessions. What is so racist about it? your imagination strikes again. Go read a book or something. Save yourself from your own stupidity lol

[SabaiSabai]

And later Thai took it because it was so freaking awesome?

what language were Siamese people speaking? they were already using the language in Chenla. Chenla is in Siamese territory. Did you think Ancient Chenla was in Cambodia? lol

Everything must be from Cambodia in your head it seems.

[SabaiSabai]

Can someone please explain me this. The first inscription found on Surat Thani was this one:



How the hell does it relate to Angkor?

Well how about you explain what it is, what it says. When it was dated etc etc.

From what information you have provided. It is a stone inscription. it is old. Angkor has old stone inscriptions. This is how its related lol

[SabaiSabai]

And later Thai took it because it was so freaking awesome?

What makes it an awesome language? because it is Khmer? lol yes we know how your mind works. Everything must be belong to Khmer and that anything attached to Khmer is awesome.

Siamese were already speaking this language from the beginning. The only new factor to be added in was the Tai language which came later. If you knew anything about the language and history of Thai language it would be quite obvious. But unfortunately your too Khmercentric to try and learn about the other side.

Siamese and Khmer is a similar language. This language came from Chenla. And no, Chenla was not in Cambodia.

[BinjbinjKai]

shows how little you know about the subject. Nothing racist about my post. The first inscriptions found with this language was to list slaves and possessions. What is so racist about it? your imagination strikes again. Go read a book or something. Save yourself from your own stupidity lol

You said in you're past post that Khmer never existed. But you insisted on saying they actually do exist.
Maybe you should save yourself from being a dumb @$$ for flip flopping.

[SEAhistory]

Well how about you explain what it is, what it says. When it was dated etc etc.

From what information you have provided. It is a stone inscription. it is old. Angkor has old stone inscriptions. This is how its related lol

I am just looking for evidence of a relation between the area you say Funan actually was, with Angkor. So far I can not find anything. Can you maybe help me? Also, I don't find any connection between Ayutthuya and Angkor.

[SEAhistory]

what language were Siamese people speaking? they were already using the language in Chenla. Chenla is in Siamese territory. Did you think Ancient Chenla was in Cambodia? lol

Everything must be from Cambodia in your head it seems.

“The Siamese language began its formation not only from its original elements but also from a foreign root, the Khmer language to be specific.”Saveros Pou.

This kind of statement might be taken as an insult by some Thais. This is a sensitive issue, especially since this ridiculous clash about Preah Vihear temple. (A good adage in politics: to divert people from real problems, make up a good old chauvinist crisis).

Note that curiously the fact that ราชาศัพท์ comes from Khmer will be better accepted.

Khmer is a language of the Mon-Khmer family, Thai is a language of the Tai-Kadai family.

I don’t need to teach you this: The Khmer people had lived in peninsular southeast Asia long before the Tai people came from Yunnan.

But now take a look at the website of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Thailand, “About Thailand”:


This theory has been altered by the discovery of prehistoric artifacts in Ban Chiang. It now appears that the Thais might have originated here in Thailand and latter scattered to various parts of Asia, including some parts of China.

Nice shortcut: A settlement from the bronze age has been found in Ban Chiang (the oldest one in the world it seems), so they were Thai people, the Thais come from Ban Chiang !!

Note that the more historically convincing (to say the least) theory of the Yunnan origin is used by some Chinese to assert that southeast Asia belong to the people’s republic of China…

So if you want to calm down a staunch partisan of the “Thai language doesn’t owe anything to those bumpkin เขมร“, here are a few facts.

Many borrowed words trace back to the สุโขทัย era. They are everyday words still in use today: for instance เดิน, “to walk”.

ราชดำเนิน means the king passage.

ดำเนิน is “the walking”. It comes from ดำเนิน, “to walk”. This is not a Thai way of coining words, this is a typical Khmer way of coining words (which is called infixation). Because เดิน is a Khmer word (today pronounced daoe (diphthong xะ เxอ) in Khmer).

We can find the original Thai word for “to walk” still in use today in Lao: ย่าง. Lao has been a little less influenced by Khmer than Siamese (or at least Lao has retained more original Thai words in parallel).

As for ราช, “the king” of course it’s an Indian word (maharajah), but it must be stressed that all the Sanskrit and Prakrit words you can find in Siamese (that makes a real big chunk) have entered Siamese through old Khmer, because the direct Indian influence had already vanished when the Siamese founded their kingdoms.

And of course, modern Thai script stems from Khmer script (but the old ones didn’t: Lanna and Tham stem from Mon).

Note that Khmer script is still used today in ยันต์and tattoo, and if your staunch partisan has this kind of tattoo, he will tell you this is ขอม, not เขมร (which is exactly the same of course).

Here are a few examples:
จมูก “nose”, in Lao you say ดัง
สะพาน “bridge”, in Lao you say ขัว
ยาย “maternal grandmother”, in Lao you say แม่ตู้
กำลัง for continuous tense, in Lao you (can also) say พวม

This Lao/Thai trick is not a general rule:
ก๋วยเตี๋ยวin Lao you say เฝอ. Of course this one is not true: ก๋วยเตี๋ยว is a Teochew word and เฝอa Vietnamese word.

Some other words:
วัด“monastery” and also “to measure” (both from Mon-Khmer root meaning “to make a circle, to mark the boundary”)
ผสม “to mix”
ตำนาน “legend”
ตำบล “district” (from old Khmer “cluster of houses”)
สะอาด “clean”
เรียน“to learn”
อาจ “can” (the final จ gives away the Khmer origin)
เสมียน “clerk”
ทะเบียน“register”
ถนน “street”
ตรวจ“to examine” and ตำรวจ “police” (you see the khmer coining of words as in “to walk”)
นัก prefix for profession (meaning “a person” in khmer), as in นักเรียน and guess what, เรียน also comes from Khmer.

Some grammatical words now:
สำหรับ “for”
เพราะ“because”
หรือ “or”
โดย“by way of”

And this is a very small (untidy…) sample of words of Khmer origin.

เขมร is of Khmer origin! Today in Cambodia it’s pronounced khmae (diphthong xะ แx). But in Surin they didn’t drop the ร, they pronounce a beautiful rolled ร. (I love those rolled ร, บุรรรรีรรรรัมย์ !!).

And it’s a general rule, Khmer Surin tends to be more conservative than Cambodian Khmer in its pronunciation. So we can say that if you want to hear “pure” Khmer, you have to go to Surin…

Sua noy

[LoveIsAllAround]

“The Siamese language began its formation not only from its original elements but also from a foreign root, the Khmer language to be specific.”Saveros Pou.

This kind of statement might be taken as an insult by some Thais. This is a sensitive issue, especially since this ridiculous clash about Preah Vihear temple. (A good adage in politics: to divert people from real problems, make up a good old chauvinist crisis).

Note that curiously the fact that ราชาศัพท์ comes from Khmer will be better accepted.

Khmer is a language of the Mon-Khmer family, Thai is a language of the Tai-Kadai family.

I don’t need to teach you this: The Khmer people had lived in peninsular southeast Asia long before the Tai people came from Yunnan.

But now take a look at the website of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Thailand, “About Thailand”:


This theory has been altered by the discovery of prehistoric artifacts in Ban Chiang. It now appears that the Thais might have originated here in Thailand and latter scattered to various parts of Asia, including some parts of China.

Nice shortcut: A settlement from the bronze age has been found in Ban Chiang (the oldest one in the world it seems), so they were Thai people, the Thais come from Ban Chiang !!

Note that the more historically convincing (to say the least) theory of the Yunnan origin is used by some Chinese to assert that southeast Asia belong to the people’s republic of China…

So if you want to calm down a staunch partisan of the “Thai language doesn’t owe anything to those bumpkin เขมร“, here are a few facts.

Many borrowed words trace back to the สุโขทัย era. They are everyday words still in use today: for instance เดิน, “to walk”.

ราชดำเนิน means the king passage.

ดำเนิน is “the walking”. It comes from ดำเนิน, “to walk”. This is not a Thai way of coining words, this is a typical Khmer way of coining words (which is called infixation). Because เดิน is a Khmer word (today pronounced daoe (diphthong xะ เxอ) in Khmer).

We can find the original Thai word for “to walk” still in use today in Lao: ย่าง. Lao has been a little less influenced by Khmer than Siamese (or at least Lao has retained more original Thai words in parallel).

As for ราช, “the king” of course it’s an Indian word (maharajah), but it must be stressed that all the Sanskrit and Prakrit words you can find in Siamese (that makes a real big chunk) have entered Siamese through old Khmer, because the direct Indian influence had already vanished when the Siamese founded their kingdoms.

And of course, modern Thai script stems from Khmer script (but the old ones didn’t: Lanna and Tham stem from Mon).

Note that Khmer script is still used today in ยันต์and tattoo, and if your staunch partisan has this kind of tattoo, he will tell you this is ขอม, not เขมร (which is exactly the same of course).

Here are a few examples:
จมูก “nose”, in Lao you say ดัง
สะพาน “bridge”, in Lao you say ขัว
ยาย “maternal grandmother”, in Lao you say แม่ตู้
กำลัง for continuous tense, in Lao you (can also) say พวม

This Lao/Thai trick is not a general rule:
ก๋วยเตี๋ยวin Lao you say เฝอ. Of course this one is not true: ก๋วยเตี๋ยว is a Teochew word and เฝอa Vietnamese word.

Some other words:
วัด“monastery” and also “to measure” (both from Mon-Khmer root meaning “to make a circle, to mark the boundary”)
ผสม “to mix”
ตำนาน “legend”
ตำบล “district” (from old Khmer “cluster of houses”)
สะอาด “clean”
เรียน“to learn”
อาจ “can” (the final จ gives away the Khmer origin)
เสมียน “clerk”
ทะเบียน“register”
ถนน “street”
ตรวจ“to examine” and ตำรวจ “police” (you see the khmer coining of words as in “to walk”)
นัก prefix for profession (meaning “a person” in khmer), as in นักเรียน and guess what, เรียน also comes from Khmer.

Some grammatical words now:
สำหรับ “for”
เพราะ“because”
หรือ “or”
โดย“by way of”

And this is a very small (untidy…) sample of words of Khmer origin.

เขมร is of Khmer origin! Today in Cambodia it’s pronounced khmae (diphthong xะ แx). But in Surin they didn’t drop the ร, they pronounce a beautiful rolled ร. (I love those rolled ร, บุรรรรีรรรรัมย์ !!).

And it’s a general rule, Khmer Surin tends to be more conservative than Cambodian Khmer in its pronunciation. So we can say that if you want to hear “pure” Khmer, you have to go to Surin…

Sua noy

LOL That's what we say Khom words: Khmer (original Cham) adopted Khom language. That's why current Khmer langauge have many Cham word but Thai don't.

Siamese call their religious script as Khom script, not Khmer script. LOL We just abandoned this script about 70 years for being official religious script. But we still using it by our Buddhist monks, or when tattooing (Sak Yant). We never say this script or language as Khmen (Khmer) but Khom. If Khom and Khmer are same people. Why Siamese, Tai Lanna, and Lao differentiate Khmer and Khom?

It's obvious that Syam, ancestors of Siamese are Austro-Asiatics. Syam homeland is Central/Southern Thailand. The land of Dvaravti and Lavo. Siam Ayutthaya are descent of Dvaravati and Lavo. Dvaravati and Lavo both are documented as Khom. Siamese surely are same people of Khom. If Siamese are descent of Khom, they no need to borrow from Khmer. LOL

[Leeporter]

I am just looking for evidence of a relation between the area you say Funan actually was, with Angkor. So far I can not find anything. Can you maybe help me? Also, I don't find any connection between Ayutthuya and Angkor.

I don't know where you got that stone script of Suratthani from and what it said.

But let me show you how Chaiya related to Varman king of Funan and Chenla.
I've posted it earlier here.
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=329725

Let me repost it here.

This stone script was found in Ta Gua Pa (Tagola) near Chaiya, southern Thailand and possible dated 6-7th century



It was written in Tamil language and Tamil alphabets.

And this is the translation (not complete) by German (Dr. Hultzsch) in English and in Thai.

“The tank, (by) name Çr -(Avani)-N ra am, which was ī ā ņ
dug (near) Na g r by . . . ravarman Gu( a) . . ,(m) n ń ū ņ ā
himself, (is placed under) the protection of the members of
Ma igr man and of the man of the vanguard and of the ņ ā
cultivators”.

สระชื่อศรีอวนินารณัม ซึ่ง................รวรมัน คุณ..............ได้
ขุดเอง ใกล้(เมือง) นงคูร อยู่ในการรักษาของสมาชิกแห่งมณี
ครามแลของกองทัพระวังหน้ากับชาวไร่ชาวนา.........



Do you see that "Varman" word in the script?

The link to the record of this stone script is here in Thailand's stone script database.
http://www.sac.or.th/databases/inscription...3&id_part=1

This stone script was found on a hill called "Narayana mountain" on the way from Taguapa to Chaiya.

I believe that it's the same place with the one in this clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJv2sUTngro

It's cleared that we have the word Varman mentioned in stone script in Chaiya in Chenla period and I believe that the king's name in this stone script should be Indravarman or something similar.

And G. Cedes didn't want to explain how could "Khmer" came to Taguapa and wrote script in "Tamil" language.



This post has been edited by Leeporter: Jan 24 2012, 03:34 AM

[Leeporter]

And I've tracked from the first period of Funan (Hun Tien) until the early period of Chenla (around 610) and I still can't find anything related to Khmer yet.

This was the last stone script I read about King Mahendravarman (590 – 610) or Prince Chitasena, which believed to be a Mon lineage from King Fa Daad and Soon Yang of Kalasin.

http://www.sac.or.th/databases/inscription...hp?f=/342_1.jpg

This script was in Sanskrit. You can see translation of this script into French (by G.Cedes) and into thai (by Chaom Kaewklai) here.

http://www.sac.or.th/databases/inscription...hp?f=/342_1.jpg

This stone script was found in Ubonratchathani, northeastern Thailand.

It was talking about King Chitasena who was Sriveravarman's son, a grandson of Srisa(something), a brother of Sribhavavarman. He was given a title "Sri Mahendravarman". After conquering "Kampotch", he built this stone sctipt.

I believed that during his period, he took over Funan and forced them to retreat to Chaiya (and became Srivijaya) because Funan sent the last tribute to China in 572 and disappeared during Sri Mahendravarman (590-610)

Davarati (Po-li-lo-cha) sent first envoy to China in 583.

So, I guess there must be something big happened during this period and must be related to his conquering of ""Kampotch" in the stone scripts.

Still I can't find anything related to "Khmer" yet. Please don't tell me that "Kampotch" mean Khmer, "Kampotch" became the name of a country call Cambodia in a much recent period, not during those period. And the name "Kampotch" was from India, not a Khmer word.

And there was no "Khmer" script in Sri Mahendravarman period!

Prove me wrong, if you can.

[SabaiSabai]

That post about language was epic fail rofl just give me a shout if you want me to explain, it's a bit hard typing on my iPhone.

[Leeporter]

SEAhistory, if you still insist that Varman kings in Funan and Chenla period were Khmer, answer us a simple question why the old Chronicle of Cambodia put Nippean Bat (1340-1346) as the first king of Cambodia and never mentioned Jayavarman IX (1327-1336) his predecessor?

Jayavarman IX died around 1336 and Nippean Bat became king a few years later and still lived in the same city

How could your people know only Nippean Bat and didn't know about the "last Varman" king????

If Angkor was so great and built by Khmers, your Khmer people should have put those Varman kings in their chronicles in the first place.

They don't have to wait until the French came in 18th century and rewrote their history to fit the French's hidden purpose.

If not because they were ashamed of being slave under Khom Varman, answer us, why?

[LoveIsAllAround]

I hope you are not same guy with this Khamer ladyboyfarang.

“The Siamese language began its formation not only from its original elements but also from a foreign root, the Khmer language to be specific.” Saveros Pou.

This kind of statement might be taken as an insult by some Thais. This is a sensitive issue, especially since this ridiculous clash about Preah Vihear temple. (A good adage in politics: to divert people from real problems, make up a good old chauvinist crisis).

Note that curiously the fact that ราชาศัพท์ comes from Khmer will be better accepted.

Khmer is a language of the Mon-Khmer family, Thai is a language of the Tai-Kadai family.

I don’t need to teach you this: The Khmer people had lived in peninsular southeast Asia long before the Tai people came from Yunnan.

But now take a look at the website of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Thailand, “About Thailand”:

This theory has been altered by the discovery of prehistoric artifacts in Ban Chiang. It now appears that the Thais might have originated here in Thailand and latter scattered to various parts of Asia, including some parts of China.

Nice shortcut: A settlement from the bronze age has been found in Ban Chiang (the oldest one in the world it seems), so they were Thai people, the Thais come from Ban Chiang !!

Note that the more historically convincing (to say the least) theory of the Yunnan origin is used by some Chinese to assert that southeast Asia belong to the people’s republic of China…

So if you want to calm down a staunch partisan of the “Thai language doesn’t owe anything to those bumpkin เขมร“, here are a few facts.

Many borrowed words trace back to the สุโขทัย era. They are everyday words still in use today: for instance เดิน, “to walk”.

ราชดำเนิน means the king passage.

ดำเนิน is “the walking”. It comes from ดำเนิน, “to walk”. This is not a Thai way of coining words, this is a typical Khmer way of coining words (which is called infixation). Because เดิน is a Khmer word (today pronounced daoe (diphthong xะ เxอ) in Khmer).

We can find the original Thai word for “to walk” still in use today in Lao: ย่าง. Lao has been a little less influenced by Khmer than Siamese (or at least Lao has retained more original Thai words in parallel).

As for ราช, “the king” of course it’s an Indian word (maharajah), but it must be stressed that all the Sanskrit and Prakrit words you can find in Siamese (that makes a real big chunk) have entered Siamese through old Khmer, because the direct Indian influence had already vanished when the Siamese founded their kingdoms.

And of course, modern Thai script stems from Khmer script (but the old ones didn’t: Lanna and Tham stem from Mon).

Note that Khmer script is still used today in ยันต์ and tattoo, and if your staunch partisan has this kind of tattoo, he will tell you this is ขอม, not เขมร (which is exactly the same of course).

Here are a few examples:
จมูก “nose”, in Lao you say ดัง
สะพาน “bridge”, in Lao you say ขัว
ยาย “maternal grandmother”, in Lao you say แม่ตู้
กำลัง for continuous tense, in Lao you (can also) say พวม

This Lao/Thai trick is not a general rule:
ก๋วยเตี๋ยว in Lao you say เฝอ. Of course this one is not true: ก๋วยเตี๋ยว is a Teochew word and เฝอ a Vietnamese word.

Some other words:
วัด “monastery” and also “to measure” (both from Mon-Khmer root meaning “to make a circle, to mark the boundary”)
ผสม “to mix”
ตำนาน “legend”
ตำบล “district” (from old Khmer “cluster of houses”)
สะอาด “clean”
เรียน “to learn”
อาจ “can” (the final จ gives away the Khmer origin)
เสมียน “clerk”
ทะเบียน “register”
ถนน “street”
ตรวจ “to examine” and ตำรวจ “police” (you see the khmer coining of words as in “to walk”)
นัก prefix for profession (meaning “a person” in khmer), as in นักเรียน and guess what, เรียน also comes from Khmer.

Some grammatical words now:
สำหรับ “for”
เพราะ “because”
หรือ “or”
โดย “by way of”

And this is a very small (untidy…) sample of words of Khmer origin.

เขมร is of Khmer origin! Today in Cambodia it’s pronounced khmae (diphthong xะ แx). But in Surin they didn’t drop the ร, they pronounce a beautiful rolled ร. (I love those rolled ร, บุรรรรีรรรรัมย์ !!).

And it’s a general rule, Khmer Surin tends to be more conservative than Cambodian Khmer in its pronunciation. So we can say that if you want to hear “pure” Khmer, you have to go to Surin…

Sua noy

http://womenlearnthai.com/index.php/khmer-influence-in-thai/

without khmer thai would be jumping like monkeys.