TAOISM - BEDROCK OF CHINESE CULTURE, Taoist influence on Modern Chinese Psyche Options

[elleX0]

TAO - Bedrock of Chinese Culture
The Chinese are unfathomable, as is often claimed. They are not. Chinese history exposes the total composition of her culture if we join the dots from the very beginning of time, all becomes crystal clear. But China's religious, moral, ethical, political and social philosophies are so fragmented and intermingled that even philosophers are muddled. This article attempts to unravel some of the confusion about Religious and non-religious beliefs or philosophies to see the elements that are significant and are predominant in Chinese religions and its impact of Chinese psyche.

Introduction
[Author's highlights or views are shown in "Italics or Bold-Italics." All quoted material is linked to source.]
To most people outside of Asia the Chinese people are unfathomable, and that is so because they have not taken the trouble to learn about the history and culture of the Chinese people. This article will attempt to look at the factors that are responsible for the basic culture of the Chinese people, and will attempt to look into the history and culture of these early isolated peoples going beyond recorded history to find the source of their soul. Only with an understanding of their history can we understand how their unchanging culture developed and has been sustained because it has not change that much in the thousands of years.
People have a tendency to ridicule or denigrate other people or their cultures that they are not familiar with, some out of spite and intolerance, and others out of ignorance. Where possible this paper will examine and discuss some of these differences from an impartial point of view.

SHANG-DI means, "The Heavenly Ruler." Records in the Statutes of the Ming Dynasty (1368AD) show the sentiments of the people for Shang-Di through their incantations.
"To Thee, O mysteriously-working Maker, I look up in thought.… With the great ceremonies I reverently honor Thee. Thy servant, I am but a reed or willow; my heart is but that of an ant; yet have I received Thy favouring decree, appointing me to the government of the empire. I deeply cherish a sense of my ignorance and blindness, and am afraid, lest I prove unworthy of Thy great favours. Therefore will I observe all the rules and statutes, striving, insignificant as I am, to discharge my loyal duty. Far distant here, I look up to Thy heavenly palace. Come in Thy precious chariot to the altar. Thy servant, I bow my head to the earth reverently, expecting Thine abundant grace. … O that Thou wouldest vouchsafe to accept our offerings, and regard us, while thus we worship Thee, whose goodness is inexhaustible!"
During the ceremony the Emperor would say this:

"Of old in the beginning, there was the great chaos, without form and dark. The five elements [planets] had not begun to revolve, nor the sun and the moon to shine. You, O Spiritual Sovereign, first divided the grosser parts from the purer. You made heaven. You made earth. You made man. All things with their reproducing power got their being."
This was uttered long before Genesis was written. [1]

Another recitation from the ancient "Border Sacrifice" rite:
"When Te (Shang-Di), the Lord, had so decreed, He called into existence (originated) heaven, earth, and man. Between heaven and earth He separately placed in order men and things, all overspread by the heavens."
Note that Shang-Di, "He called into existence" or commanded heaven and earth into existence and placed men and things therein.
The worship of Shang-Di, however, was gradually replaced by the worship of other gods that appealed to the fickle peasantry of China, as listed below, growing out of the many forms of shamanism, animism, divination, and geomancy, until the worship of Shang-Di deteriorated to the sacrificial ritual of, "The Border Sacrifice."

Religious Revival in China



After Mao died, the government loosened up on religion. It stated it made a mistake persecuting monks and nuns during the Cultural Revolution and quietly abandoned many of its atheist positions. Under these circumstances, religion has experienced a rebirth. Buddhist, Taoism, and Muslim religious centers have reopened; lots of time and money has gone into building temples; and superstition and folk religion have crept back in people’s lives.

In Yulin, a city of about 1 million people in northern Shaanxi, 50 major temples, 500 medium-size temples and thousands of smaller temples have been built or repaired since Mao’s death in 1976. A school teacher there took it upon himself to rebuild a temple honoring a maiden who got pregnant by eating a peach and gave birth to five dragons—black, red, white, green and yellow—through her nostrils, mouth and ears.

Ancestor worship, Buddhism, Christianity and devotion to local gods has returned in a big way in southern Chinese. Ancestor worship halls have sprung up in Guandong; Buddhist monks advertise on television in Fujian; shaman and yingyang masters have set up enterprises in rural communities; and Bibles are being printed up by the millions.

On his experiences entering houses in Shanghai’s oldest neighborhoods, Howard French wrote: “I had not expected to find so much evidence of China’s thriving quasi-underground religious culture here. In house after house, I found people worshiping privately as Christians or Buddhists. Asked how she had come to the church, a woman who had been sent to the countryside as a youth in the Cultural Revolution told me she had been converted by her neighbors. Everyone in this building believes in Christ, she said.” [Source: Howard W. French, New York Times, August 28, 2009]

A poll by a Shanghai university in 2007 found that 31 percent of Chinese 16 or older are religious. Among those most interested in religion are China’s wealthier classes. Members of the Communist Party are still banned from belonging to a formal religion.

As the interest in religion has grown a multitude of quack healers, self-proclaimed prophets and spiritual masters have appeared. Scholars have compared the Chinese to passengers on a rudderless boat drifting a sea. Every time the wind shifts they look for new direction and easily manipulated because they feel have nothing to lose.

In many cases the government views the revival as a threat but can do little to stop it because the movement is so widespread. One Chinese sociologist told Newsday, “The resurgence of folk religions reflects the pursuit of folk symbols of authority and new ways of communicating. It represents the rise of a new kind of rural power and authority.” Perhaps the biggest obstacle that religion has to overcome is money as it battles materialism for attention and the hearts and souls of many Chinese.
Reasons for Religious Revival in China

Religion addresses many questions that Communism doesn’t answer and there sometimes seem to be a need in China to address these questions. American sociologist William T. Liu told Time, "Chinese communism is a system of economic development, but there is no theology to explain what people should believe in.” Chinese that once believed in the Communist Party with religious zeal have lost faith partly as result of its widespread corruption and are looking to fill the void.

Many feel that China is experiencing a spiritual vacuum. Li Baiguang, a prominent lawyer and Chinese activist, told the Times of London, “Rising wealth means that more and more people have been able to meet their material needs, the need for food and clothing. Then they are finding that they need to satisfy their spiritual needs, to look for happiness for the soul. In addition, they are seeing a breakdown on the moral order as money tales over.”

Buddhism and Christianity have become especially popular with new believers who come from all segments of society, rich and poor, urban and rural. On religion and materialism, Aloysius Jin Luxian, Shanghai’s 92-year-old bishop who spent 27 years in labor camps and prison, said, “Souls become ever more empty, which affords religion room to expand.”

Chinese President Hu Jintao has repeatedly said there is place for spirituality religion in modern Chinese society, in part to fill the void left by the collapse of Communist ideology. But rather than being more accepting of existing religions he has attempted to steer Chinese towards traditional Marxist values and traditionally Confucian beliefs about society." [15]

To read the whole article with proper formatting go to:
http://knol.google.com/k/mbp-lee/tao-bedro...3x9udotn1a/161#

[Boron]

who wrote this trickster article? a christian?

[Hugham]

Moved from other post to the appropriate place.

What is Taoism? It worships many ancient, pre-shamanistic gods.
Buddhism is a philosophy! It does not involve the worship of god/gods. But in Chinese Buddhism, they have corrupted Buddhism with Taoist gods. They even worship Buddha as a god, but he has never claimed to be a god.
Confucianism is a philosophy. It does not involve the worship of god/gods.

Please tell me about it.

You are completely wrong about Taoism.

It is the essential core of Chinese civilization and people that has history more than 5000 years.

It's not just our religion, moral guidance and science, but it also our identity and history of our people as well.

The Taoism Deities are our ancestor and heroes.

From the first ancestor of Chinese people Fu Xi and Nu Wa, to our great hero like Yellow Emperor and GuanYi.


Taoism is like Jewish religion to Jewish people.

It's their identity, culture and history as well. From the Adam and Eve to Abraham and Moses.


If you are a Chinese, than you are automatically a Taoist.

[elleX0]

If you are a Chinese, than you are automatically a Taoist.
If you are a Chinese, than you are automatically a Taoist.
If you are a Chinese, than you are automatically a Taoist.

[WoahZtong]

Seems to Chinese-centric

Why not have something more secular and pan asian in nature, Confucianism? Confucian teachings not only can appeal to more asians in general but also avoid the problems of buddhist teachings such as karma, rebirth, and general focus on a "spiritual leader". If China really wants to win more hearts and minds, aside from fixing its own internal problems and excessive greed culture, it should avoid nationalistic/ethnocentric style culture.

This post has been edited by WoahZtong: Nov 12 2011, 01:47 PM

[elleX0]

Seems to Chinese-centric

Why not have something more secular and pan asian in nature, Confucianism? Confucian teachings not only can appeal to more asians in general but also avoid the problems of buddhist teachings such as karma, rebirth, and general focus on a "spiritual leader". If China really wants to win more hearts and minds, aside from fixing its own internal problems and excessive greed culture, it should avoid nationalistic/ethnocentric style culture.

WoahZtong, the purpose of these articles was not to proselytise Taoism or Buddhism, but to examine what you or I understand what it means to us. Many people speak about Taoism, or Buddhism, or Confucianism as though all of us see these religions in the same way. Most of us do not even know the real tenets of these religions but say this or that about it, as though they are authorities on the subject. My purpose is to show that most of us know hardly anything about these religions. For example, Chinese Buddhism is quite different from Tibetan Buddhism which is again quite different from Sri Lankan Buddhism, and that again is different from Thai Buddhism, and again quite different from Shinto Buddhism. Yet most of us speak of Buddhism as though it was the same concept and ideologies in all these regions. It is not.

Similarly, with Taoism, there are many phases of Taoism, that of pre-history in the neolithic period, and then that in the Shia and Shang Dynasty period, and then the Taoism corrupted by the philosophers like Confucius and LaoTzu and others. I am attempting to reach out into Pre-Historical Taoism, into the neolithic periods or even before that. But what is the real Taoism that has influenced Chinese culture. That is why I wanted to highlight Hugham's understatement,

"If you are Chinese, then you are automatically a Taoist."

Check it out. You will see the influence of Taoism in everything that is spiritually important in Chinese life even today. And this influence on the Chinese character and culture has lasted long over 6000 years, and has been there all the time.

This post has been edited by elleX0: Nov 13 2011, 05:27 AM

[Yerroperil]

WoahZtong, the purpose of the articles was not to proselytise Taoism or Buddhism, but to examine what you or I understand what it means to us. Many people speak about Taoism, or Buddhism, or Confucianism as though all of us see these religions in the same way. Most of us do not even knows the real tenets of these religions but say this or that as though they are authorities of the subject. My purpose is to show that most of us know hardly anything about these religions. For example, Chinese Buddhism is quite different from Tibetan Buddhism which is again quite different from Sri Lankan Buddhism, and that again is different from Thai Buddhism, and again quite different from Shinto Buddhism. Yet most of us speak of Buddhism as though it was the same in all these regions. It is not.

Similarly, with Taoism, there are many phases of Taoism, that of pre-history in the neolithic period, and then that in the Shia and Shang Dynasty period, and then the Taoism corrupted by the philosophers like Confucius and LaoTzu and others. But what is the real Taoism that has influenced Chinese culture. That is why I wanted to highlight Hugham's understatement,

"If you are Chinese, then you are automatically a Taoist."

Check it out. You will see the influence of Taoism in everything that is spiritually important in Chinese life even today. And this influence on the Chinese character and culture has lasted long over 6000 years, and has been there all the time.

How the hell is Shang di/Tian worship Taoist,I thought the Tao Te Ching was made during 4-6th century by Lao tze(real?),otherwise saying all folk religions before Tao Te Ching is Taoism is wrong. How the hell is Chinese history 6,000 years,if you lump in the rule of the 3 sovereigns and 5 emperors(which I doubt the existence of),is about 5,000 years not 6,000.

[Boron]

Moved from other post to the appropriate place.



You are completely wrong about Taoism.

It is the essential core of Chinese civilization and people that has history more than 5000 years.

It's not just our religion, moral guidance and science, but it also our identity and history of our people as well.

The Taoism Deities are our ancestor and heroes.

From the first ancestor of Chinese people Fu Xi and Nu Wa, to our great hero like Yellow Emperor and GuanYi.


Taoism is like Jewish religion to Jewish people.

It's their identity, culture and history as well. From the Adam and Eve to Abraham and Moses.


If you are a Chinese, than you are automatically a Taoist.

cool. thanks for telling me that. I like being Taoist. where can I help build some temples?

[thesecond]

You are completely wrong about Taoism.-------------------------your comments show u r totally ignorant about taoism

It is the essential core of Chinese civilization and people that has history more than 5000 years.-----which book said chinese civilization has more than 5000 history? do not tell me legend can prove it

It's not just our religion, moral guidance and science, but it also our identity and history of our people as well. -------Lmao I bet u know nothing about Taoism

The Taoism Deities are our ancestor and heroes.

From the first ancestor of Chinese people Fu Xi and Nu Wa, to our great hero like Yellow Emperor and GuanYi.------there is no legend said the first ancestor of chinese people r fuxi and nvwa , and guanyi? guanyin or guanyu ?


Taoism is like Jewish religion to Jewish people.
It's their identity, culture and history as well. From the Adam and Eve to Abraham and Moses.


If you are a Chinese, than you are automatically a Taoist.
chinese people has the right to choose their religion

Like I have said, most of so called nationalists here r totally faked. They know nothing about chinese culture. Lmao.

[Boron]

华夏祖先并非北京猿人 http://luoyue.net/show.aspx?tid=648
the2, you can now stop claiming common ancestry with huaxia.

[elleX0]

How the hell is Shang di/Tian worship Taoist,I thought the Tao Te Ching was made during 4-6th century by Lao tze(real?),otherwise saying all folk religions before Tao Te Ching is Taoism is wrong. How the hell is Chinese history 6,000 years,if you lump in the rule of the 3 sovereigns and 5 emperors(which I doubt the existence of),is about 5,000 years not 6,000.

Taoism was already in existence as Taoist gods, long before the arrival of Tao Te Ching. Taoism was the "Folk Religion of the primitive neolithic peoples in China."

[Yerroperil]

Taoism was already in existence as Taoist gods, long before the arrival of Tao Te Ching. Taoism was the "Folk Religion of the primitive neolithic peoples in China."

Which Taoist gods?

[Rayzor]

How the hell is Shang di/Tian worship Taoist,I thought the Tao Te Ching was made during 4-6th century by Lao tze(real?),otherwise saying all folk religions before Tao Te Ching is Taoism is wrong. How the hell is Chinese history 6,000 years,if you lump in the rule of the 3 sovereigns and 5 emperors(which I doubt the existence of),is about 5,000 years not 6,000.

The Yellow Emperor was credited with an enormous number of cultural legacies and esoteric teachings. While Taoism is often regarded in the West as arising from Laozi, Chinese Taoists claim the Yellow Emperor formulated many of their precepts.[47] In addition the texts mentioned above, he was also credited with composing the Four Classics of the Yellow Emperor,[48] the Yellow Emperor's Hidden Talisman Classic,[48] and the "Yellow Emperor's Four Seasons Poem" included in the Tung Shing fortune-telling almanac.[47] The Yellow Emperor's Inner Canon, which presents the doctrinal basis of traditional Chinese medicine, was also named after him.[49]

"Xuanyuan 12" (s 轩辕十二, t 軒轅十二) is also the Chinese name for Gamma Leonis.[50] In the Hall of Supreme Harmony in Beijing's Forbidden City, there is also a mirror called the "Xuanyuan Mirror".[51][52]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Empero...ietal_influence

In the west, it's Laozi but in China, according to Chinese Taoists, it's the Yellow Emperor, Huang Di who founded Taoism. The history and root of Taoism goes deeper even before Laozi was born.

This post has been edited by Rayzor: Nov 13 2011, 08:19 AM

[Yerroperil]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Empero...ietal_influence

In the west, it's Laozi but in China, according to Chinese Taoists, it's the Yellow Emperor, Huang Di who founded Taoism. The history and root of Taoism goes deeper even before Laozi was born.

It pains me to say so but imho I don't think Huangdi was a real being,Shujing(Classic of history) doesn't even mention Huangdi or any of the 3 sovereigns and 5 emperors rather it begins with Yao and Shun,Bamboo Annals on Wikipedia states "It begins at the earliest legendary times (Huangdi, 2497 BC to 2398 BC)" however I see no source,and the text itself is said to gone through revisions thus some say parts of it are forgery(omitting stories such as how Shun imprisoned Yao),your wikipedia link also states this "The most ancient extant reference" to Huangdi is an inscription on a bronze vessel made in the first half of the fourth century BCE by the royal family of the state of Qi. is interesting perhaps worship existed however it was not mainstream?,I also wonder why Confucius doesn't mention him at all only Yao and Shun as examples of sages,however I found one source Da Dai liji 大戴禮記 Wu di de 五帝德 stating how Zai Wo doubts Huangdis reign of 300 years and Confucius explained that Huangdi himself ruled for 100 years,worshiped for 100 years then people sought to emulate him for 100 years,Confucius also states that no one can be confident of sages before Yu, Sima qians 'Shiji(records of the grand historian) seems to base certain parts on Wu di de 五帝德 so imo Huangdi was viewed as "official" history during the Han.

[elleX0]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Empero...ietal_influence

In the west, it's Laozi but in China, according to Chinese Taoists, it's the Yellow Emperor, Huang Di who founded Taoism. The history and root of Taoism goes deeper even before Laozi was born.

Rayzor, there is much confusion, even among the sophisticated Chinese. You are right of course that the fundamental basis of Chinese religion, commonly known as Taoism did not begin with LaoTzu with his Philosophy I-Ching, based on observing Nature. But there are many people in China who believe that that is when religion started in China. As you said, the basis of Taoism goes even before the Yellow Emperor, Huang Di, and is based on shamanism and ancient "folk religions."

Huang Di, did not create gods. The gods were already a part of the ancient Chinese heritage even long before Huang Di. Ancient Chinese with the help of their shaman priests already worshipped the many gods that are a part of the Chinese religion, known today as Taoism, but basically hijacked by the followers of Lao Tzu.

[quote]Yerroperil said:"How the hell is Shang di/Tian worship Taoist,I thought the Tao Te Ching was made during 4-6th century by Lao tze(real?),otherwise saying all folk religions before Tao Te Ching is Taoism is wrong. How the hell is Chinese history 6,000 years,if you lump in the rule of the 3 sovereigns and 5 emperors(which I doubt the existence of),is about 5,000 years not 6,000.["/quote]

I am glad "yerroperil" raised this point, because that is what a lot of Chinese think and believe that the Chinese religion, Taoism, was started by Lao Tzu (604-531 BC) when he introduced his "natural philosophies or Tao I-Ching." Tao I-Ching, in my opinion, is a atheistic philosophy, not involving gods. While in my opinion, a religion is focused on a god/gods as the ultimate ruler of man.

Confucius or LaoTzu never invented or created any Chinese gods. The Chinese gods already existed,as I said, even before Huang Di. The Chinese gods were created by ancient Chinese with their shamans and were in existence thousands of years before "recorded history." Chinese gods are what Chinese religion is about, which includes a very important aspect of Chinese culture, ancestral worship, or respect for the dead ancestors. Even this pre-dates Shang Di.

It is all a matter of perspective of ancient time scale and accepting a freedom of views. The same argument equally applies to ancient Hinduism or to Ancient Judaism or Christianity or Islam.

[Rayzor]

It pains me to say so but imho I don't think Huangdi was a real being,Shujing(Classic of history) doesn't even mention Huangdi or any of the 3 sovereigns and 5 emperors rather it begins with Yao and Shun,Bamboo Annals on Wikipedia states "It begins at the earliest legendary times (Huangdi, 2497 BC to 2398 BC)" however I see no source,and the text itself is said to gone through revisions thus some say parts of it are forgery(omitting stories such as how Shun imprisoned Yao),your wikipedia link also states this "The most ancient extant reference" to Huangdi is an inscription on a bronze vessel made in the first half of the fourth century BCE by the royal family of the state of Qi. is interesting perhaps worship existed however it was not mainstream?,I also wonder why Confucius doesn't mention him at all only Yao and Shun as examples of sages,however I found one source Da Dai liji 大戴禮記 Wu di de 五帝德 stating how Zai Wo doubts Huangdis reign of 300 years and Confucius explained that Huangdi himself ruled for 100 years,worshiped for 100 years then people sought to emulate him for 100 years,Confucius also states that no one can be confident of sages before Yu, Sima qians 'Shiji(records of the grand historian) seems to base certain parts on Wu di de 五帝德 so imo Huangdi was viewed as "official" history during the Han.

To be honest, I also don't believe in the existence of Huang Di or even the likes of Chi You and Yan Di. However, for people who believe in the existence of Huang Di, Chi You and Yan Di, then I suppose they will agree with the theory propose by Chinese Taoist that Huang Di formulated many of Taoism's precepts.

Rayzor, there is much confusion, even among the sophisticated Chinese. You are right of course that the fundamental basis of Chinese religion, commonly known as Taoism did not begin with LaoTzu with his Philosophy I-Ching, based on observing Nature. But there are many people in China who believe that that is when religion started in China. As you said, the basis of Taoism goes even before the Yellow Emperor, Huang Di, and is based on shamanism and ancient "folk religions."

Huang Di, did not create gods. The gods were already a part of the ancient Chinese heritage even long before Huang Di. Ancient Chinese with the help of their shaman priests already worshipped the many gods that are a part of the Chinese religion, known today as Taoism, but basically hijacked by the followers of Lao Tzu.

Rayzor, there is much confusion, even among the sophisticated Chinese. You are right of course that the fundamental basis of Chinese religion, commonly known as Taoism did not begin with LaoTzu with his Philosophy I-Ching, based on observing Nature. But there are many people in China who believe that that is when religion started in China. As you said, the basis of Taoism goes even before the Yellow Emperor, Huang Di, and is based on shamanism and ancient "folk religions."

Huang Di, did not create gods. The gods were already a part of the ancient Chinese heritage even long before Huang Di. Ancient Chinese with the help of their shaman priests already worshipped the many gods that are a part of the Chinese religion, known today as Taoism, but basically hijacked by the followers of Lao Tzu.

Yerroperil said:"How the hell is Shang di/Tian worship Taoist,I thought the Tao Te Ching was made during 4-6th century by Lao tze(real?),otherwise saying all folk religions before Tao Te Ching is Taoism is wrong. How the hell is Chinese history 6,000 years,if you lump in the rule of the 3 sovereigns and 5 emperors(which I doubt the existence of),is about 5,000 years not 6,000.["/quote]

I am glad "yerroperil" raised this point, because that is what a lot of Chinese think and believe that the Chinese religion, Taoism, was started by Lao Tzu (604-531 BC) when he introduced his "natural philosophies or Tao I-Ching." Tao I-Ching, in my opinion, is a atheistic philosophy, not involving gods. While in my opinion, a religion is focused on a god/gods as the ultimate ruler of man.

Confucius or LaoTzu never invented or created any Chinese gods. The Chinese gods already existed,as I said, even before Huang Di. The Chinese gods were created by ancient Chinese with their shamans and were in existence thousands of years before "recorded history." Chinese gods are what Chinese religion is about, which includes a very important aspect of Chinese culture, ancestral worship, or respect for the dead ancestors. Even this pre-dates Shang Di.

It is all a matter of perspective of ancient time scale and accepting a freedom of views. The same argument equally applies to ancient Hinduism or to Ancient Judaism or Christianity or Islam.

Yeah, I think that is the case as well. Besides Huang Di(assume that he exist), there are many other Chinese sages that exist before Huang Di's time that formulated the Taoism. It just that compare to the likes of Laozi and Huang Di, their names are not known. Perhaps, that is why when you speak about Taoism founder, the name Laozi and Huang Di come across people mind. By the way, just curious, which Chinese gods are you talking about?

This post has been edited by Rayzor: Nov 13 2011, 10:32 AM

[Yerroperil]

To be honest, I also don't believe in the existence of Huang Di or even the likes of Chi You or Yan Di. But for people who believe in the existence of Huang Di, Chi You and Yan Di, then I suppose they will agree with the theory propose by Chinese Taoist that Huang Di fourmulated many of Taoism's precepts.

Imho calling animist/shamanistic rituals and gods Taoism is wrong since its basically lumping anything before the Tao Te Ching and calling making Taoism a catch all term for all Chinese folk religion,my opinion is that Tao Te Ching was more philosophical and it became syncretised with folk religion and Buddhism,no way of confirming worship of the jade emperor or any other Taoist deities existed anyone have proof? btw my opinion about Chinese history is that Xia does exist I've seen enough evidence but Yao and Shun may be semi mythical what about you?

[Rayzor]

Imho calling animist/shamanistic rituals and gods Taoism is wrong since its basically lumping anything before the Tao Te Ching and calling making Taoism a catch all term for all Chinese folk religion,my opinion is that Tao Te Ching was more philosophical and it became syncretised with folk religion and Buddhism,no way of confirming worship of the jade emperor or any other Taoist deities existed anyone have proof? btw my opinion about Chinese history is that Xia does exist I've seen enough evidence but Yao and Shun may be semi mythical what about you?

I think I mentioned somewhere before in a thread in Hmong chat that I don't think Xia dynasty and Sanmiao exist. I think the thread was deleted. Anyway, it's up to you what you want to believe. Regarding 'calling animist/shamanistic rituals and gods Taoism is wrong', are you directing that statement to me or elleX0 because I don't remember saying anything about that.

This post has been edited by Rayzor: Nov 13 2011, 10:44 AM

[elleX0]

Rayzor, not sure if you were asking me? But if so, I generally refer to the pantheon of all Taoist gods like those depicted here:

http://www.china.org.cn/english/daodejingforum/208124.htm

I tend to separate gods with their significance to Chinese worship from atheistic philosophies that have been added to or superimposed on Taoism or Buddhism and integrate it into their worship. To me they are philosophies, quite distinct from religious philosophies.

[Yerroperil]

I think I mentioned somewhere before in a thread in Hmong chat that I don't think Xia dynasty and Sanmiao exist. I think the thread was deleted. Anyway, it's up to you what you want to believe. Regarding 'calling animist/shamanistic rituals and gods Taoism is wrong', are you directing that statement to me or elleX0 because I don't remember saying anything about that.

Xia imo is probably a state which swallowed other states as what Shang and Zhou did,strange why would the thread got deleted probably flaming... I'm directing that statement to anyone who bothers to read it.