Laos's Dam making Vietnam jumping up & down., what happen to 1977 treaty of friendship? Options

[XigonCongchua]

What kind of $hittty map is that? Tran ninh? What a good made up map?

That map was from

"Creating Laos: The Making of a Lao Space Between Indochina and Siam, 1860-1945" by Søren Ivarsson

and

"Việt Nam Sử Lược" by Trần Trọng Kim.

The boundary of Trấn Ninh was pretty extended in that map but that was because the map dates in the late 1800s, and we all know King Ming Mạng expanded Vietnam extensively.


I wrote a note under the map. The Trấn Ninh I was talking about for the most part only included Huaphan and Xieng khoang .

Of course Trấn Ninh is not well known because there's nothing but mountains up there, plus the French had cut it back to Laos. So no one mentions it anymore. Let's say if Lai Châu today is given to Laos. Then within 50 years, no Vietnamese would have a slightest idea of what Lai Châu was anymore since it's just a mountainous province with lots of minorities.

You accuse people of this and that but you're just a brainless Lao troll. You don't even have a slightest idea of the maps you post. You just post up whatever looks good to you.

This one, for example, is a map of French's gradual takeover of Southeast Asia. [Southern Vietnam was the first to be taken by the French through a 1863 treaty. Then other parts are slowly taken over.] It is NOT a map of political boundaries between Southeast Asian nations. But Lao trolls like you often use it as a political map, as if the lines drawn on the map should be boundaries of states.


I don't think you can even provide a the name of a credible author or institute where your map is from, let alone understanding the maps.

Edit: Need to highlight the bold line above because somebody couldn't read.

This post has been edited by XigonCongchua: Mar 12 2011, 05:32 PM

[Buddhalove]

That map was from

"Creating Laos: The Making of a Lao Space Between Indochina and Siam, 1860-1945" by Søren Ivarsson

and

"Việt Nam Sử Lược" by Trần Trọng Kim.

The boundary of Trấn Ninh was pretty extended in that map but that was because the map dates in the late 1800s, and we all know King Ming Mạng expanded Vietnam extensively.


I wrote a note under the map. The Trấn Ninh I was talking about for the most part only included Huaphan and Xieng khoang.

Of course Trấn Ninh is not well known because there's nothing but mountains up there, plus the French had cut it back to Laos. So no one mentions it anymore. Let's say if Lai Châu today is given to Laos. Then within 50 years, no Vietnamese would have a slightest idea of what Lai Châu was anymore since it's just a mountainous province with lots of minorities.

You accuse people of this and that but you're just a brainless Lao troll. You don't even have a slightest idea of the maps you post. You just post up whatever looks good to you.

This one, for example, is a map of French's gradual takeover of Southeast Asia. [Southern Vietnam was the first to be taken by the French through a 1863 treaty. Then other parts are slowly taken over.] It is NOT a map of political boundaries between Southeast Asian nations. But Lao trolls like you often use it as a political map, as if the lines drawn on the map should be boundaries of states.
[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_w9wdy6LQX6I/TRAWEdGqw-I/AAAAAAAAAyc/DUjOT1JNE-
I don't think you can even provide a the name of a credible author or institute where your map is from, let alone understanding the maps.

Really, miss fake historian? Little bit over 100 years before French and British arrival, Laos and Siam were the same country. Your so called Tran Ninh, which nobody recognized besides your own version of history, was the central administrative and the heart of Laos Lanxang. The area was populated by Tai/Lao people and Viet were just one of minorities in those area. Ming Mang might have told his future French master that those areas belong to Vietnam, which was not recognized by Siam or Lao ruler in Viengchan. You can not use “claiming” as your legitimated document. Claiming and actually controlling are not the same. It doesn’t sit well in the past, and doesn’t sit well today either. Recent messy claiming is about Paracel islands in the South China Sea. Have you noticed?

Sip Song Chu Tai claimed by Siam and Vietnam and French finally forced Siam to give up in 1888.

This is how Siam and Laos look before French and British arrival.



This post has been edited by Buddhalove: Mar 11 2011, 12:24 AM

[XigonCongchua]

For a moment, I've forgotten that there's no use in responding to a troll like Buddhalove. What a waste of time. You can talk whatever you want but anyone who does collect documentaries and valuable records of history from all sides knows what I'm talking about.

Adios. Hope you enjoy babbling about your fantasy with your other Lao fellows.

This post has been edited by XigonCongchua: Mar 11 2011, 12:49 AM

[Buddhalove]

I can not help it if you can not handle the truth, true is true, and it never died. Just think like this: Claiming is like clapping with one hand, it won't make much noise until you use both hands. Both Siam and Laos have to recognized that Tran Ninh belong to Vietnam for it to work, and non of them did. By telling French that it was part of your won't add up either and French agreed. That is why we have our lovely map today.



This post has been edited by Buddhalove: Mar 11 2011, 01:21 AM

[LaOpo]

I can not help it if you can not handle the truth, true is true, and it never died. Just think like this: Claiming is like clapping with one hand, it won't make much noise until you use both hands. Both Siam and Laos have to recognized that Tran Ninh belong to Vietnam for it to work, and non of them did. By telling French that it was part of your won't add up either and French agreed. That is why we have our lovely map today.

Not only that. China has to agree with the claim aswell.

Also, my mom said Northern and Central Viet are nice people. Since they are more understandable with our culture and ways if thinking, unlike those from the south or in Ho Chi Minh city people who are greedy and selfish. LMAO!! Sorry, just sharing my conversation with AF members. I thought it would be interesting to know, well from my mom view tho. Please don't get piss or be hatin at me now, especially Xigon.

This post has been edited by LaOpo: Mar 11 2011, 01:49 AM

[LonelyKitty]

Don't worry Xigon, i know what you have said is the truth, i belive and i and most of Vietnamese don't forget about our Golden Age yet, one day we'll try to show to the world our Shining Culture and History.

I only regret that Nguyen Tri Phuong is a worst strategist, even with a large army with almost 12.85 times of French army but still lose, he believed that those "Quy" Phu Lang Sa is immortal and undefeatable so he put our army in the defense position... while we ran out of support, and then the French use Guerilla tatics... we have lost.... and our emperor lost all the will to fight... he can't believed that with a small size army, french can defeated Nguyen Tri Phuong, so the emperor made a decision to signed in the French's Treaties...
of course i regarded him as a hero (cos he suicided when he knew that he lose to the french) , but not as a strategist...

Remember... about Trinh-Nguyen Lords time, Nguyen Lord Fire power used to be the strongest, His Army with only a few battle ship defeated 5 Dutch Battle Ship (Dutch navy knew as "undefeatable demon" on the sea"), only 1 small Dutch support ship can ranaway... he cut off all the Dutch army nose and ears and then put them in a gift and give it to Trinh Lord as a warning...

If only Nguyen Dynasty don't exist.... If Only Quang Trung didn't have to gone so young...

@Buddhalove: Who gonna trust you? you should know that we already knew the truth your lies is not gonna work...


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/vi/t...-Tonkin1893.jpg

This is the Truth man... Truth always hurt.

This post has been edited by LonelyKitty: Mar 11 2011, 02:29 AM

[XigonCongchua]

These idiots are always amusing. Using modern maps to justify a situation of the 15th century. Whatever floats your boat. Sure you love the modern map so much, then stick with it. We all should stick to modern maps Who was the one that moaned first about how a big part of Vietnam should have belonged to Laos? When shown the otherwise, you moved back to your defense position and endorse the modern boundary now. It's all great. At least you're being good and accept the boundary that has been set for over a century instead of barking over western Vietnam.

[Buddhalove]

as a warning...

If only Nguyen Dynasty don't exist.... If Only Quang Trung didn't have to gone so young...

@Buddhalove: Who gonna trust you? you should know that we already knew the truth your lies is not gonna work...


This is the Truth man... Truth always hurt.

Only south Vietnamese nationalist believe you and nobody else. Keep on clapping with one hand. Typical viet nationalist mentality: they only use some facts to support their claims and disregard facts that make them look bad. Makeing up stuffs along the way to make them look good is common rountine. Here is the true old map that Xigon probably like.

[Buddhalove]

These idiots are always amusing. Using modern maps to justify a situation of the 15th century. Whatever floats your boat. Sure you love the modern map so much, then stick with it. We all should stick to modern maps Who was the one that moaned first about how a big part of Vietnam should have belonged to Laos? When shown the otherwise, you moved back to your defense position and endorse the modern boundary now. It's all great. At least you're being good and accept the boundary that has been set for over a century instead of barking over western Vietnam.

Don't lost your cool Xigon, ain't you suppose to be a scholar? . Anyway I would like to pay tribune to Sip Song chu tai Never forget her.

[LonelyKitty]

Clash with Dali Empire:
1014: Clash with Dali Empire, captured Hà Giang and Vị Long a province of Tuyên Quang
1159: Clash with Dali again, captured Lào Cai and North Yên Bái.
= > Total 14 945, 8 km2 (square kilometres) (except Yên Bái and Tuyên Quang because no one know exactly about these area in the past)

Captured Chế Củ:
1069: captured king of Champa - Chế Củ exchange with 3 Province: Bố Chính, Ma Linh, Địa Lý, equivalent to Quảng Bình, Quảng Trị today.
= > total 12 809,6 square kilometres.

Châu Ô, Châu Rí:
1306: exchanged (there is no other word, this is exactly what they thought) Huyền Trân princess with these 2 province, equivalent to South Quảng Trị and Thừa Thiên – Huế today.
= > about 5 065,3 square kilometres ( except south Quảng Trị due to unknow exactly area).

Hồ Quý Ly:
about 1400 – 1403, Hồ Quý Ly with his ideal to create “Nam Bộ hậu phương” or "Southern Hinterland" of Central Vietnam today, so he attacked Champa, so he tried to capture Đà Nẵng, Quảng Nam and of course he captured them.
= > about 11 721,8 square kilometres.

Lê Thánh Tông:
1471: attacked Champa, capture Champa Citadel Vijaya ( Bình Định), so Champa people have to moved back to Khánh Hòa. Phú Yên become buffer. so this time Dai Viet Empire capture 2 province which is Quảng Ngãi and Bình Định.
1478: Massacred Bồn Man, capture Sơn La.
= > about 25 274,6 square kilometres.

Nguyễn Lord ( 1611 – 1680 - 1757; about 69 – 146 years): capture the entire our modern country, except Tây Nguyên ( KonTum, Gia Lai, Dak Lak, Đắc Nông).
= > capture 86 055,4 square kilometres.

Minh Mạng Emperor: captured Tây Nguyên
= > about 54 640,3 square kilometres
= > plus 60 184 kilometres of Laos and Cambodia.

Well look at this:



Minh Mang Expansion:

(Square Kilometres)

Laos:
Houaphan ( 16 500)
Cambodia:
Kampong Cham ( 9 799)
Kampong Chhnang ( 5 521)
Kampong Spe ( 7 017)
Kampot ( 4 873)
Kandal ( 3 568)
Kep ( 336)
Phnom Penh ( 290)
Sihanoukville ( 868)
Prey Veng ( 4 883)
Svay Rieng ( 2 966)
Takéo ( 3 563)
= > total: Laos ( 16 500 square kilometres) + Campuchia ( 43 684 kilometres equivalent ¼ area of Modern Cambodia) = 60 184 square kilometres.

[LonelyKitty]

Dai Nam map the year 1636:



No offense though, i'm neutral.

This post has been edited by LonelyKitty: Mar 11 2011, 06:32 AM

[LonelyKitty]

Thanks yevon for this, though i'm not asking him yet.

[XigonCongchua]

^ 1636? Don't you mean 1836?

Before I go, let me analyze this little map that our friend Buddhalove loves to [blindly] post everywhere


It doesn't take much brain to figure out that it's a map of French gradual takeover of Indochina.

Now let me ask you this: During the age of colonization, when a Western nation wanted to exert their power or influence over a region of an Asian country, which region would they target first and foremost? The prosperous and busy urban region or the quiet and poor rural mountainous region? Of course the busy and prosperous urban region (You can see example of this everywhere, I don't need to list). What did the Westerners want? They wanted markets, they wanted to sell their products, they wanted to gain access to rare products of Asia, they wanted to control trade (Hellooo, remember World History or European History, anyone? I need to say this because Buddhalove seems like a high school drop out). It was only logical that they targeted the commercially active regions.

Hence it's no surprise that Southern Vietnam was the first to fall into the French (Saigon - commercial center of VN), then Central Vietnam (Hội An and Đà Nẵng - top busiest ports of VN), then Northern Vietnam.

Now notice that it took 10 years for the French to gain control from one region of Vietnam to another. Yet it only took 4 years for the French to gain control of the mountainous region in Northwest Vietnam. Because that region was an autonomous area under administration of Vietnam. Once the Vietnam had fallen, it didn't take long for that area to fall too. And it's logical that such far isolated mountainous region would be the last in the nation to be obtained by the French.

If you say that area was under "administration" of Laos, it wouldn't make sense because why on earth would the French target that useless isolated mountainous region of Laos first while Southern Laos was much more easily to access and easily to conquer. You can look at this topography map and see for yourself.

Since much of Southern Laos was flat land and wasn't heavily separated from Vietnam by thick mountains, once you had control of Vietnam, it was always easier for you to shoot Southern Laos first, than for you to cross over those thick mountains to obtain an isolated region that doesn't bear much economic value. If you were the French colonists who craved for markets, trades, and resources, you wouldn't make that move. The Laos would have fought hard to protect their land, be it southern or northern.

It was only logical if that area was under administration of Vietnam, and hence fell to the French shortly after Vietnam fell.

Also, notice the area of Eastern Cambodia next to Southern Vietnam. It fell to the French shortly after Southern Vietnam fell too, right? And long before Central Vietnam fell. Yet, Eastern Cambodia didn't fall to the French until 1907. But the entire Cambodia was flat land. What prevented the French from making further move on Cambodian land? What made them delay until 1906 ~ 40 years later? Well, because Eastern Cambodia was under Vietnamese sphere of influence and Western Cambodia was under Siamese sphere of influence. That explained why Eastern Cambodia fell shortly after Southern Vietnam fell. The same thing that explained why that region in Northwest Vietnam fell shortly after Northern Vietnam fell.

This post has been edited by XigonCongchua: Mar 11 2011, 09:27 AM

[nguyenpride]

map of Nguyen Dynasty


Why we need to cares about these laos troll ? Laos and Cambodia already flooded with millions vietnamese , soon it'll be our anyways. I still blame the French for colonized Indochina, if not then Laos and Cambodian wouldn't be 2 countries like today.

This post has been edited by nguyenpride: Mar 11 2011, 03:31 PM

[nguyenpride]

Tran Ninh(Houaphanh Province) used to belong to Dai Viet kingdom .


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houaphanh_Province


The province was home of the Bon Man kingdom since 14th century. Following a Vietnamese invasion in 1478, it became Tran Ninh province of Dai Viet kingdom with the capital at Sam Chau (present-day Sam Nuea). It remained a Vietnamese outpost territory until the 19th century when ownership was switched to Laos during the French Colonial period.


It was the fu-king French's fault to return it back to Laos. Laos trolls need to thanks the french , otherwise, laos wouldn't even exist today.


This post has been edited by nguyenpride: Mar 11 2011, 02:01 PM

[Trias1991]

Tran Ninh(Houaphanh Province) used to belong to Dai Viet kingdom .


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houaphanh_Province


The province was home of the Bon Man kingdom since 14th century. Following a Vietnamese invasion in 1478, it became Tran Ninh province of Dai Viet kingdom with the capital at Sam Chau (present-day Sam Nuea). It remained a Vietnamese outpost territory until the 19th century when ownership was switched to Laos during the French Colonial period.


It was the fu-king French's fault to return it back to Laos. Laos trolls need to thanks the french , otherwise, laos wouldn't even exist today.

Seriously, I so much hate the French for that. Tran Ninh belonged around 400 years to Vietnam! It already sucks that they colonized Vietnam, but then take land from us away was too much!

[nguyenpride]

Seriously, I so much hate the French for that. Tran Ninh belonged around 400 years to Vietnam! It already sucks that they colonized Vietnam, but then take land from us away was too much!

16,500 km² land used to belong to Dai Viet, now they're gone . It's the right time to get our father's land back from Laos. Laos is too weak to defend themselve.


look at this map. The French not only gave back the land to Laos but some parts to Cambodia and China. Under Minh Mang rule, Phnompenh was name Nam Vang and occupied by vietnamese already.It's very sux that we lost too much land, but these Laos Khmer trolls keep claiming that they lost lands to vietnam. But they dont know that we lost the most land after french leave. If the French were not colonized Indochina, there wouldnt be Laos or Cambodia.


This post has been edited by nguyenpride: Mar 11 2011, 03:43 PM

[VietnamNo1]

Actually, Nguyen dynasty land was under French. The gaining was under French administrative. You have to give credit to French master, they gained those lands for you. Take a look at the map below.

the areas that are temporarily annexed were parts of Vietnam
Now BuddhaLove, can you explain to me why these lands belong to Vietnam before the French came?

This post has been edited by VietnamNo1: Mar 11 2011, 03:58 PM

[NiaGaoGao]

If Vietnam invade Laos in the future or encroached us like they did to Cambodia. Then that 40 years or so of Vietnam and Laos special relationship is nothing but ambition of Vietnam to steal more of our land. I think Laos is doing the right thing to move away from such untrustful fake relationship. Which we gain nothing from Vietnam in the last 40 years or that they have no respect for our country and our people. Just read all those responds in here. It showed alot and how sensative this issue can be...

This post has been edited by NiaGaoGao: Mar 11 2011, 03:56 PM

[Buddhalove]

the areas that are temporarily annexed were parts of Vietnam
Now BuddhaLove, can you explain to me why these lands belong to Vietnam before the French came?

Did you guys even read my post? I have no problem with the map you posted. But i have problem with the sh!tty map below posted by Xigon, scholar wanabe. Where it placed Hua Panh province as Tran Bien, while placing Northern half of Laos, including the capital Viengchan as Tran Ninh. Never in history Viengchan was part of Vietnam.




This post has been edited by Buddhalove: Mar 11 2011, 07:34 PM