Secret history of the Mongols, Under Eternal Blue Heaven Options

[ANAND]

I heard the term "Mongol" came from Mengwu. It is said Kublai Khan himself endorsed this. Not really sure if true tho.

I think your chinese term Mengwu come from word MONGOL, just like you chinese say FAGUO for FRANCE, DAGUO for GERMANY on so on... So do not imply your language term as absolute

In the book "the secret history of the mongols" it states that there was a tribe of people called the Kerait, whom aligned with the mongols and were eventually absorbed by them. The book stated the kerait had auburn hair and green or grey eyes. Anyone know anything about these people?

Also Khereids were Nestorian Christian. They are Mongols. They moved to west as Chinggis conquers, become one of ancestors of Kazakhs

[出家人]

I think your chinese term Mengwu come from word MONGOL, just like you chinese say FAGUO for FRANCE, DAGUO for GERMANY on so on... So do not imply your language term as absolute

I'm not sure but I think the Mengwu Shiwei tribe existed around the 8th to 10th century. When did the term "Mongol" first appear pls?

Also, the present word for Mongol in Chinese is menggu.

are you trying to say we're kinsmen? I understand you might love and adore Mongols beyond sense because of what they did back in the days. unfortunately your love isn't shared on this side of the camp, but thanks anyway. we think we're different no matter what history may come up with. durp...

There are more Mongols in China than any place on earth so it's only logical someChinese take an interest in this minority. I don't know if majority Chinese see Mongols as kinsmen, but I'm sure most would agree it's a problem that needs to be eradicated

This post has been edited by 出家人: Mar 8 2006, 07:19 PM

[ANAND]

I'm not sure but I think the Mengwu Shiwei tribe existed around the 8th to 10th century. When did the term "Mongol" first appear pls?

Also, the present word for Mongol in Chinese is menggu.

Certainly MONGOL name existed before your chinese name, that is why you chinese came up with this mengwu shiwei, like word FRANCE was before your chinese FAGUO
MONGOLIA IS MONGOLIA, just like you are zhongguoren

This post has been edited by ANAND: Mar 8 2006, 07:18 PM

[出家人]

Certainly MONGOL name existed before your chinese name, that is why you chinese came up with this mengwu shiwei, like word FRANCE was before your chinese FAGUO
MONGOLIA IS MONGOLIA, just like you are zhongguoren

I read somewhere, can't recall at the moment, that the term Mongol didn't exist till Kublai Khan's time.

[Subedey]

and I read a good dozen books of non-Mongolians, and they all said Mongols are Mongols, Chinese are Chinese, horses are horses, dogs are dogs. hence, you're welcome to spare us from your offtopicking.

the word Dalai Lama is a Mongolian title by the way...

[出家人]

and I read a good dozen books of non-Mongolians, and they all said Mongols are Mongols, Chinese are Chinese, horses are horses, dogs are dogs. hence, you're welcome to spare us from your offtopicking.

the word Dalai Lama is a Mongolian title by the way...

Read better ok? Nobody is arguing whether Mongols are Mongols, we're just speculating the origins of Mongols. So stop going off-topic pls

[MING-LOYALIST]

I read somewhere, can't recall at the moment, that the term Mongol didn't exist till Kublai Khan's time.

The word mongol comes from one of the mongol tribes.
They normally identify themselves as tatars, naimans, keraits, merkits or whatever before being unified into one Mongol nation.

[Anda]

ED

This post has been edited by Anda: Mar 9 2006, 04:44 PM

[Bitterlemon]

Temujin - Chinggis Khaan was born as a prince of Khamag Mongol (All Mongol) tribe. This tribe had a long long history at that time. There's no way we got this name during Hubilai Khaan's time

[lovelytruth]

The word mongol comes from one of the mongol tribes.
They normally identify themselves as tatars, naimans, keraits, merkits or whatever before being unified into one Mongol nation.

All of these tribes were Mongol speakin.After -All(or Whole?) Mongol tribe conquered them.They all called themselves as Mongol.
Btw Mongol this word comes from ......There were one river that called <Mon> ......gol means in mongolian river !
Whole Mongol tribes have lived near by this river !

History of the warriors started 750000 years ago from now on, and that is subdivided into 8 parts according to historians:
1. Clan Structure- This generation covers the time of from t he first men lived on the current land of the Mongols till the 3rd Century BC.
2. Ancient Empires of the Mongols- The first Mongol and the first nomadic empire Khunnu was established 209 BC on the vast land of Central Asia for the first time- till the 13th Century AD.
3. Great Mongolian Empire and Mongol Empire- 13th Century- 14th Century
4. Political Splitting of the Empire- 15th Century to the 17th Century
5. Colony of Manchu Qing- 18th Century to the 19th Century
6. The Authonomy of Mongolia- 1911-1919
7. The Communist Revolution and the communist regime- 1921-1990
8. Democratic Revolution and Democratic Rules- 1990-till now on

Details:

· BC 750000- Man existed on the land of Mongolia
· BC 750000- 100000- Lower Paleolitics
· BC 100000- 40000- Middle Paleolitics
· BC 4000000- 12000- Upper Paleolitics
· BC 12000- 4000- Neolit
· BC 4000- 1000- Bronze Age
· BC 2000- People started having animal husbandry
· BC 1000- Iron Age
· BC 8-6th Century- Clan Structure
· BC 6-3th Century- The Great Wall was established in order to mark the borders between Chinese Han and Khunnu
· BC 3-1st Century- The first Mongolian Empire Khunnu existed
· BC 1st Century to 320 AD- The second Mongolian Empire Syanbi existed
· AD 330- 402- The 3rd Mongolian Empire Nirun existed
· AD 402-555- The 4th Mongolian Empire Jujan existed
AD 555-745- The 1st Turkic Empire existed on Mongolian Land
AD 745- 840- Uigur Empire existed
AD 840- Powerful Kirgiz nomads came to Central Asia
AD 10-12th Century- Kidan Empire existed
AD 12th Century- Khamag Mongol Tribe established
1162, the black horse year - Temujin the later became Chinggis Khan is born as a prince of Khamag Mongol Tribe
1170- Temujin is engaged to Borte, the princess of Khongirad Tribe
1177- Temujin marries to Borte
1179- Temujin wins in the war with Gurvan Merghid Tribe, his first son Zuchi is born
1183- Second son Tsagaadai is born
1186- Third son Ogoodei is born
1189- Temujin becomes the king of United Mongolia and is given the title of Chinggis Khaan ( Ocean or Sea Khaan)
1193- His 4th son Toului is born
1206- Chinggis Khaan becomes the Great Khaan of Greater Mongolia
1206- Uighur Mongolian Script becomes the official system of writing
1206- Mongolia produces coins showing the portrait of a horseman brandishing a sword
1215- Chinggis Khaan conqueres China
1219- Chinggis Khaan conqueres Southern countries
1220- The construction of Kharakhorum starts as the caopital of Great Mongolian Empire on the orders of Chinggis Khaan
1224- Chinggis Khaan sterts invading Middle East , Arabics, Western Countries, India
1224- The 'Chinggis Stone', the oldest known example of Mongolia script was erected
1227 - Chinggis Khaan passes away.
1228- Ogoodei was given the throne
1234- Ogoodei Khaan established the ortoo horse-relay courier system
1235- Tumen Amgalant Palace was built at Khahakhorum
1236- On the orders of Ogoodei Khaan, the world's first paper money was put into circulation
1240- The Secret History of Mongols was completed
1235-1259- The construction of Kharakhorum was completed
1246- Guyug became the Khaan.
1251- Munkh became the Khaan
1260- Arigh Bukh became the King
1261- War between Arigh Bukh and Khubilai started
1270- Khubilai Khaan established schools in the provinces, districts, and in the capital of the Mongolian Yuan Dynasty.
1274- Khubilai Khaan attacked Japan for the first time
1305- Great Mongolian philosopher Choiji-Odser wrote his famous work " Zurkhen Tolit".
1368- Mongolian rule in China failed and collapse of Mongolian Yuan Empire
1369- History of Yuan Empire was written
1370- Kharakhorum was renamed as the capital of the Empire
1382, 1408, 1439- The Mongols attacked Moscow
1466- Batmunkh Dayan Khaan became the Khaan
1577- Altan Khaan and Abtai Khaan accepted Buddhism
1586- Construction of Erdene Zuu, the 1st Buddhist Monastery was started
1616- The first Embassy of Russia was opened in Mongolia
1635- Zuunghar Empire established
1636- Inner Mongolia was captured by Manchu Qing.
1639- Zanabazar, the prince of Tusheet Khan Aimag was instated as the head of Buddhist Yellow Faith in Mongolia
1671- Galdan became the king of Zuungar
1686- Zanabazar created Soyombo script
1688-1697- The war between Zuunghar and Khalkha
1691- Khalkha Mongolia surrendered its autonomy into Manchu Qing Empire
1754- Zunghar was captured by Manchu Qing, Mongolia was captured completely
1754-1911- Under Manchu's Colony
1778- Capital Ikh Khuree found its current location on the bank of the River Tuul
1911- Mongolian Monrchy was declared with 8th Bogd as its head
1913- The first regular newspapers in Mongolia began to be published
1919-China invaded Mongolia
1921- Mongolia gained its independence with the help of Red Russians
1924- Bogd Khaan passes away and Mongolia became a republic
1937- Religious activities were banned and nearly all of Mongolian monasteries were destroyed by the communists
1990- Democratic Revolution, failure of Communist Regime
1996- Mongolian Democratic Coalition won in the Parlianmentary Election
2000 - Mongoliam Communist Party wins in the general parliamentary elections
2004- Mongolian democratic Coalition wins in the general parliamentary elections

[blitzkrieg]

are you trying to say we're kinsmen? I understand you might love and adore Mongols beyond sense because of what they did back in the days. unfortunately your love isn't shared on this side of the camp, but thanks anyway. we think we're different no matter what history may come up with. durp...

spare me, when in the post did i state mongols are chinese kinsmen. talk about kindergarten-level reading comprehension skill. i said mongols(at least the chinggisid mongols) were probably descendants of shiwei people who lived outside chinese domain. that's the most widely accepted theory of mongol origin around the world. another possible theory is that mongols are descended from the rouan-rouan(the northern nomads in the disney cartoon 'mulan') it's a moot point anyway because mongols have diverse blood.

also mind you, it took decades of hard wars for mongols to conquest china. (hell, conquest of northern china wasn't even achieved in chinggis's lifetime.) not to mention the chinese dynasties were split in four and they were all far past their prime. not to take anything away from the mongols because it still was a very difficult job.

I think your chinese term Mengwu come from word MONGOL, just like you chinese say FAGUO for FRANCE, DAGUO for GERMANY on so on...

NOW THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. NOBODY IS fu-kING ARGUING THAT MENGWU SHIWEI IS THE RIGHT TERM TO CALL MONGOLS.
bayrlalaa!

[出家人]

Oh ok, now I see what you guys(anand) are talking about concerning the name Mongol. Sometimes I am dumb as a brick. Excuse me pls...

[MING-LOYALIST]

Mongols are probrably descended from Shiwei of the Northern Xianbei group of the DongHu.

[lovelytruth]

Korean ppl consider themselves as their ancestor came from Mongolia(Central Asia) some thousand years ago.
In my opinion we have nothing similar with chinese ppl

[blitzkrieg]

well, nobody here argued that chinese have anything common with mongolians. acutally, i take that back. we all at one point came from east africa didn't we?

as for the central asian origin of koreans... well, most koreans i met seemed to disagree with it.

[Subedey]

2
I prefer this version of your story, despite the other one being brief. I'm no expert in history, but when a non-Chinese sees names like Shiwei, Menggu, or Xianbei, without notes alongside, the only thing that comes to the mind would be China. Thanks for your suggestion, but I have no time to take up Chinese name dictionary to improve my comprehension, let alone the wish.

Well, it's really sweet of you to invent names for others all alone, like intimate couples do. But instead be kind to post names in a manner understandable to all. If you can't, save the post for the Chinese chat because we don't know or are interested in the names you call or called people even if it's written in latin or cyrillic. It's a discussion of "Secret History of Mongols" after all and nomads of Central Asia have their own names for their tribes. The likes of Khereyid, Nayman, Tatar, Merkid were mentioned by my mates here. These are names generally recognized across from Mongolia, Turkey to Russia, if you travel.

Otherwise, you're welcome to post them in Chinese characters, it might have some cultural value at least.

Capisce?

залуусаа энэ нөхрийг тоож үзсэний хэрэггүй, үг өлгөж авч хэрэлдэх гэж ирсэн бна, битгий урхинд нь ороод флэймдчээрэй.

spare me, when in the post did i state mongols are chinese kinsmen. talk about kindergarten-level reading comprehension skill. i said mongols(at least the chinggisid mongols) were probably descendants of shiwei people who lived outside chinese domain. that's the most widely accepted theory of mongol origin around the world. another possible theory is that mongols are descended from the rouan-rouan(the northern nomads in the disney cartoon 'mulan') it's a moot point anyway because mongols have diverse blood.

also mind you, it took decades of hard wars for mongols to conquest china. (hell, conquest of northern china wasn't even achieved in chinggis's lifetime.) not to mention the chinese dynasties were split in four and they were all far past their prime. not to take anything away from the mongols because it still was a very difficult job.
NOW THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. NOBODY IS fu-kING ARGUING THAT MENGWU SHIWEI IS THE RIGHT TERM TO CALL MONGOLS.
bayrlalaa!

This post has been edited by Subedey: Mar 9 2006, 03:26 PM

[gangi788]

well, nobody here argued that chinese have anything common with mongolians. acutally, i take that back. we all at one point came from east africa didn't we?

as for the central asian origin of koreans... well, most koreans i met seemed to disagree with it.

Yeah right. Like how many Koreans do you know? Zero? Hey, aren't you the guy who called Koreans "kiggers". Mod, there's a warning/ban past due here.

Lately, there are so many Chinese wannabe Mongolians crawling all over the boards. It's quite disgusting.

[ANAND]

ED

This post has been edited by ANAND: Mar 9 2006, 10:38 AM

[ANAND]

ed

-
залуусаа энэ нөхрийг тоож үзсэний хэрэггүй, үг өлгөж авч хэрэлдэх гэж ирсэн бна, битгий урхинд нь ороод флэймдчээрэй.

Yag unen
iimerhuu nohdiig haysan deer bololtoi.

[Subedey]

In the book "the secret history of the mongols" it states that there was a tribe of people called the Kerait, whom aligned with the mongols and were eventually absorbed by them. The book stated the kerait had auburn hair and green or grey eyes. Anyone know anything about these people?

Also Khereids were Nestorian Christian. They are Mongols. They moved to west as Chinggis conquers, become one of ancestors of Kazakhs

Bulls eye! You guys are dead right. Naymans and Kereyids (also Kerait) were Nestorian Christians by religion, meaning those converted by Syrian missionaries sometime between 9th and 10th centuries. The Kereyid leader was a close friend (or Anda, like a brothers by friendship or bros!) of Chingis' father. That made it a little easier for him to put things in order the way he did.

About the auburn hair and greenish eyes, you're perhaps right because I've read that many times too. Seems like they kinda looked like Today's Northern, Center-Western Mongolians. Here's an article for the 13th century power play between tribes.



Also, anyone interested in the whole thing can find here .

Major Tribal Confederations (“Nations”) in 12th Century

Mongols

—Tribe of Temüjin (Chinggis Khan). First united under Qabul Khan, dispersed in 1161 by Tatars. Reunited in last quarter of the twelve century by Temüjin. Support from the Jin Dynasty from mid-1190s to early 1200s.

Qabul Khan (approx. 1125-1140).

Ambaghai Khan (approx. 1140-1145)

Kutula Khan (approx 1145-1161)

Diaspora (approx 1161-1180s)

Temüjin (1180s-1227)



Tatars

—Mongols’ enemies. Came to power in mid-twelfth century with support from Jin Dynasty. Destroyed in approximately 1196 by Mongols, Jin, and (maybe) Kereyids.



Kereyids

—Tribe of Toghrul (Wang Khan). As powerful as the Tatars for latter half of the twelfth century. Support form the Jin Dynasty from mid-1190s to 1203. Toghrul returned first by Yesügei, Temüjin’s father, then by Temüjin. Absorbed by Mongols in 1203.

Kyriakus (unknown-1160s)

Toghrul (1160s-1160s)

Toghrul’s brother (unnamed)

Toghrul (1160s-1194?)

Erke Qara (1194?-1196)

Toghrul (1196-1203)

Absorbed into Mongol confederation.



Merkit

—Tribe of Hö’elün, Temüjin’s mother. Abducted Börte, Temüjin’s wife, perhaps impregnating her with Jochi, Temüjin’s first son. Destroyed in early 1180s by Mongols and Kereyids.

Toqtoa’beki (unkown to 1180s. Survived until early 1200s)

Destroyed in early 1180s.



Naiman

—Final power opposing Mongol hegemony. Jin support from 1203-1204. Destroyed in 1204.

Buiruk Khan (unknown; active in early-to-mid 1190s)

Tayang Khan (unknown-1204)

Absorbed into Mongol confederation.

This post has been edited by Subedey: Mar 9 2006, 02:14 PM