Korean interpretation of Chinese History, KBS Korea Eastern China was a colony of Baekje Options

[BurdenOfAges]

Someone's bound to be asking it. You seem to be commenting quite a lot on Chinese history, but I don't recall you ever once making reference to any Chinese language material or study. When it comes to pre-modern Chinese history, the use of English can only get you so far. This leads me to conclude that you don't actually understand Chinese, just like these other Korean pseudo-history buffs here.

Then I should say that I know enough Classical Chinese to understand what a particular passage in an ancient text means, most of the times. Modern Mandarin gives me some trouble; however, most pre-modern Chinese texts were not written in a vernacular format, so it's not a prerequisite. It does unfortunately mean that I am not very schooled in Chinese-language articles published in the PRC. That is a limitation that I deal with by following people who do keep up with the research there, and who publish summaries of them from time to time. But if you asked me to cite the last ten articles published in China about, say, the relationship between Wei and Qi during the Warring States, I wouldn't be able to do it.

As for the Korean pseudo-history buffs, you should understand that they don't actually do the research themselves. Like I said, there are networks of nationalist historians in Korea that provide the material, and these people do know Chinese, even if they sometimes distort it to suit their agendas.

This post has been edited by BurdenOfAges: Mar 11 2010, 12:37 AM

[Kanadian]

The problem is that there is no evidence. The program on KBS actually shows how flimsy the existing evidence is - much of it based on a few lines of text in later records being interpreted "generously," to say the least. Where is the archaeological and anthropological support? If Baekje had a significant presence on many coastal areas of China there should be Baekje tombs, architecture, material goods, skeletons, and so on. Going to a village in Guangxi and showing that the locals "believe" they came from Shandong is not proof of anything - how is Shandong equivalent to Baekje?

It is possible that Baekje raided China's coasts and took over, or were granted, a few trading towns in concession. Beyond that, where's the archaeological and anthropological evidence?

Having said that, I think that Liaoxi (the western part of Liaoning + the eastern tip of Hebei) might indeed have fallen under Baekje or Goguryeo control for a time. The records must be checked against that of nearby Xianbei kingdoms, however.

The video has given tons of evidence. Unless you can find stronger evidence that completely opposes it, I have to go with the superior position.

[BurdenOfAges]

The video has given tons of evidence. Unless you can find stronger evidence that completely opposes it, I have to go with the superior position.

Actually, that's the problem. The video doesn't give much concrete evidence at all.

I'll give you a few examples off the top of my head:

Chinese records stated that Baekje held territory in Yoseon and Jinpyung

This is an oft-cited sentence. It is, in fact, present in the Songshu, which likely got it from the Liangshu, which later Chinese historians seemed to have simply copied. Where is Yoseon? Well, it is thought to be between Liaodong and Hebei, so the natural candidate is Liaoxi. This isn't too far-fetched. Liaoxi was close enough to Baekje and Goguryeo for the two to contest it, and a war between the Xianbei state and Baekje may indeed have taken place over such a territory, which they would've bordered. There is no archaeological evidence of a major Baekje presence in Liaoxi, and if we read the Weishu (of the Xianbei dynasty in question) we note that Liaoxi was thought to have been lost for only about 8 years, not 100+, but so far, it's credible.

Here is where the problems start. So where is Jinping? Jinping, in the Song record, sounds like it became the name of the district Baekje took over in Liaoxi (晋平, the Chinese characters for the province in question, likely derives from the 晋 of the 晋 state, which was a major northern Chinese power in the years preceding Baekje's rise). The video, however, claims that Jinping is in fact in Guangxi, near Vietnam, northeast of the capital at Nanning, based on the name of a later Song Dynasty district.

How sensible is this? For Baekje to invade Guangxi it would have to pass through Guangdong and circumnavigate the whole of China. Maritime travel would literally take months, and for what? Jinping, according to the video, is located northeast of Nanning. Nanning is an inland capital, and northeast of it is nowhere close to the coast. Thus, we would have to believe that, after they stopped along Guangxi's coast, the Baekje fleet traveled up a river to the middle of a jungle to establish a colony that it can't possibly govern from home.

Is this a logical interpretation of the texts?

Interviews with Chinese villagers

The video makers claim to visit Baekje Hur in Guangxi. It then claims that there are no traces of Baekje Hur to be found, just Chinese countryside. It then discovers the Zhuang (a Tai speaking ethnic group with affinities to Vietnamese) minority, finds a handful of traditional cooking tools that "look just like Korean traditional cooking tools," and declares that the Zhuang must've been from Baekje.

...

Really?

Baekje prince in land of black-teeth => Baekje conquered Southern Asia

The first half of the program was dedicated to proving that Japan was colonized by Baekje. So, you would think, the video makers would know that painting their teeth black was a custom that the ancient Japanese practiced. Yet, for seemingly arbitrary reasons, they suddenly declare that "black teeth = Southern Asian" and that therefore Baekje must've held territories in southern Asia.

...

Again, really?

This post has been edited by BurdenOfAges: Mar 11 2010, 04:04 AM

[Kanadian]

Actually, that's the problem. The video doesn't give much concrete evidence at all.

I'll give you a few examples off the top of my head:



This is an oft-cited sentence. It is, in fact, present in the Songshu, which likely got it from the Liangshu, which later Chinese historians seemed to have simply copied. Where is Yoseon? Well, it is thought to be between Liaodong and Hebei, so the natural candidate is Liaoxi. This isn't too far-fetched. Liaoxi was close enough to Baekje and Goguryeo for the two to contest it, and a war between the Xianbei state and Baekje may indeed have taken place over such a territory, which they would've bordered. There is no archaeological evidence of a major Baekje presence in Liaoxi, and if we read the Weishu (of the Xianbei dynasty in question) we note that Liaoxi was thought to have been lost for only about 8 years, not 100+, but so far, it's credible.

Here is where the problems start. So where is Jinping? Jinping, in the Song record, sounds like it became the name of the district Baekje took over in Liaoxi (晋平, the Chinese characters for the province in question, likely derives from the 晋 of the 晋 state, which was a major northern Chinese power in the years preceding Baekje's rise). The video, however, claims that Jinping is in fact in Guangxi, near Vietnam, northeast of the capital at Nanning, based on the name of a later Song Dynasty district.

How sensible is this? For Baekje to invade Guangxi it would have to pass through Guangdong and circumnavigate the whole of China. Maritime travel would literally take months, and for what? Jinping, according to the video, is located northeast of Nanning. Nanning is an inland capital, and northeast of it is nowhere close to the coast. Thus, we would have to believe that, after they stopped along Guangxi's coast, the Baekje fleet traveled up a river to the middle of a jungle to establish a colony that it can't possibly govern from home.

Is this a logical interpretation of the texts?



The video makers claim to visit Baekje Hur in Guangxi. It then claims that there are no traces of Baekje Hur to be found, just Chinese countryside. It then discovers the Zhuang (a Tai speaking ethnic group with affinities to Vietnamese) minority, finds a handful of traditional cooking tools that "look just like Korean traditional cooking tools," and declares that the Zhuang must've been from Baekje.

...

Really?



The first half of the program was dedicated to proving that Japan was colonized by Baekje. So, you would think, the video makers would know that painting their teeth black was a custom that the ancient Japanese practiced. Yet, for seemingly arbitrary reasons, they suddenly declare that "black teeth = Southern Asian" and that therefore Baekje must've held territories in southern Asia.

...

Again, really?

Are you sure you're not misunderstanding or confusing something? I didn't find anything strange about the video.

Korean seafarers from Kaya sometimes took ships as far as India. Baekje was even more of a maritime power Kaya, they had strong armies too, and were expansionist.

The rulers of Baekje were nation builders who knew how to conquer territory and create states. In a way they are kind of like the Normans, who sail around creating kingdoms everywhere. The rulers of Baekje originally came from a kingdom in northern Manchuria called Buyo.

You neglected to mention that there are records about 100,000 horseman attacking Baekje territory and losing, even though such an event would be impossible unless Baekje had territories in China during the times of chaos in China. Just ask yourself this.. why would you need 100,000 horseman to attack Baekje if they only had a little village?

[BurdenOfAges]

Are you sure you're not misunderstanding or confusing something? I didn't find anything strange about the video.

Korean seafarers from Kaya sometimes took ships as far as India. Baekje was even more of a maritime power Kaya, they had strong armies too, and were expansionist.

The rulers of Baekje were nation builders who knew how to conquer territory and create states. In a way they are kind of like the Normans, who sail around creating kingdoms everywhere. The rulers of Baekje originally came from a kingdom in northern Manchuria called Buyo.

You seem to have an overly high opinion of Baekje, but fails to address the actual issue: why would Baekje create a single colony in inland Guangxi? Because Jinping and Liaoxi are all the Chinese records offer. There is no actual textual support of further Baekje expansionism in China. In fact, Baekje was only really expansionist in the late 4th century. Before, it was considered a regional power in Korea, and afterwards, Goguryeo would consistently best Baekje in peninsular conflicts.

You neglected to mention that there are records about 100,000 horseman attacking Baekje territory and losing, even though such an event would be impossible unless Baekje had territories in China during the times of chaos in China. Just ask yourself this.. why would you need 100,000 horseman to attack Baekje if they only had a little village?

Because Baekje likely did hold Liaoxi for a short period of time. I've already said this above and you actually responded to that post. It is entirely unnecessary to hold territory within China proper to be attacked by Northern Wei, since Northern Wei was a semi-nomadic dynasty that was not confined to the Chinese sphere.

This post has been edited by BurdenOfAges: Mar 11 2010, 05:10 AM

[SantaKlaws]

This theory, solely based on Chinese historical text, is disputed among Korean scholars due to lack of archaeological evidence. I guess BurdenOfAges did all the talking for me.

[Kanadian]

It's a theory worth looking into. There is nothing implausible about Baekje creating territories in China during China's period of fragmentation. There is even evidence of it in Chinese historical texts.

What is there to dispute at this point? Get digging!

There is nothing wrong with using HISTORICAL texts to paint a picture of history. You even use historical texts to interpret your finds in archeology.

This post has been edited by Kanadian: Mar 11 2010, 05:51 AM

[BurdenOfAges]

It's a theory worth looking into. There is nothing implausible about Baekje creating territories in China during China's period of fragmentation. There is even evidence of it in Chinese historical texts.

What is there to dispute at this point? Get digging!

There is nothing wrong with using HISTORICAL texts to paint a picture of history. You even use historical texts to interpret your finds in archeology.

Outside of Liaoxi, there is little to no evidence even in Chinese historical texts. If we accept that the Chinese knew about Baekje enough to record its brief conquests in northeast China, then there is no reason to believe that they would not have also recorded its conquests elsewhere, if such conquests had occurred. The video's attempt to stretch - if not outright distort - philological details to exaggerate Baekje's expansion is what makes makes it dubious, even disturbing - such as in the declaration that "Koreans would have an easy time expanding into Eastern China because they were Dongyi, and Dongyi were Korean kin," which is simply a rehash of the "Dongyi = Tungus = Korean" idea started back in the 80s of Korean nationalist historiography, presented without any critical examination, as if it were something that the rest of the history community accepts.

As a way to encourage further inquiry, it's an interesting hypothesis. As a way to present history to the Korean public, which is, after all, what the KBS program was designed to do, it is deleterious, and only further contributes to discrepancies between Koreans' understanding of history and the world's. Through this program and a few others, it has become obvious to me that KBS is more interested in tooting the nationalist horn and waxing about how great the Korean race is than in actually examining the facts. Perhaps they see it as a way to counter Chinese claims on Goguryeo, but if so, they are simply lowering themselves to the same level.

This post has been edited by BurdenOfAges: Mar 11 2010, 12:47 PM

[Titanium]

I really cannot understand why everyone is all up in arms about this in the first place. I mean really who cares what a bunch of crazy nationalists think? They're going to believe what they want anyways, therefore just let them. Meanwhile the rest of us will continue living on planet earth.

[BurdenOfAges]

I really cannot understand why everyone is all up in arms about this in the first place. I mean really who cares what a bunch of crazy nationalists think? They're going to believe what they want anyways, therefore just let them. Meanwhile the rest of us will continue living on planet earth.

All that it takes for lies to spread is for honest people to do nothing.

Besides, this isn't just some crazy nationalists talking. KBS is a major Korean broadcasting network. Its programs are notable, at least in Korea itself, and are widely watched.

[Titanium]

All that it takes for lies to spread is for honest people to do nothing.

Besides, this isn't just some crazy nationalists talking. KBS is a major Korean broadcasting network. Its programs are notable, at least in Korea itself, and are widely watched.

Exactly, it's a South Korean channel that broadcasts to 50 million people in a world of 6.5 billion. Again I ask, why should it matter and how is it relevant? If the channel was an American broadcast that programs to 300 million Americans, maybe then I'd be concerned but KBS? LOL. I respect your valiant effort and academic prowess, I just prefer not to waste my time on such trivial matters.

[ShandongDaHan]

Exactly, it's a South Korean channel that broadcasts to 50 million people in a world of 6.5 billion. Again I ask, why should it matter and how is it relevant? If the channel was an American broadcast that programs to 300 million Americans, maybe then I'd be concerned but KBS? LOL. I respect your valiant effort and academic prowess, I just prefer not to waste my time on such trivial matters.

Yeah which can now be broadcast on Youtube where the rest of the human population can get easy access to it and be misinformed. While you are well intentioned, this pacifist approach allows more people to spread myths and lies. At least here, people can see both sides of the argument and its up to them who they want to believe.

[Titanium]

Yeah which can now be broadcast on Youtube where the rest of the human population can get easy access to it and be misinformed. While you are well intentioned, this pacifist approach allows more people to spread myths and lies. At least here, people can see both sides of the argument and its up to them who they want to believe.

You do have a point but on the same token not everyone in the world has internet and most that do....have no interest in Asian history much less Korean distorted Asian history. I don't have a problem with defending our viewpoint, I just hope no one makes more to it than what it is. There are even more offensive claims to Chinese history such as Eurocentrists claiming that the white man founded the entirety of Chinese civilization....likewise for Afrocentrists. Maybe I'm just too idealistic to assume that most people are smart enough to buy into lies and propaganda.

[Kanadian]

Outside of Liaoxi, there is little to no evidence even in Chinese historical texts. If we accept that the Chinese knew about Baekje enough to record its brief conquests in northeast China, then there is no reason to believe that they would not have also recorded its conquests elsewhere, if such conquests had occurred. The video's attempt to stretch - if not outright distort - philological details to exaggerate Baekje's expansion is what makes makes it dubious, even disturbing - such as in the declaration that "Koreans would have an easy time expanding into Eastern China because they were Dongyi, and Dongyi were Korean kin," which is simply a rehash of the "Dongyi = Tungus = Korean" idea started back in the 80s of Korean nationalist historiography, presented without any critical examination, as if it were something that the rest of the history community accepts.

As a way to encourage further inquiry, it's an interesting hypothesis. As a way to present history to the Korean public, which is, after all, what the KBS program was designed to do, it is deleterious, and only further contributes to discrepancies between Koreans' understanding of history and the world's. Through this program and a few others, it has become obvious to me that KBS is more interested in tooting the nationalist horn and waxing about how great the Korean race is than in actually examining the facts. Perhaps they see it as a way to counter Chinese claims on Goguryeo, but if so, they are simply lowering themselves to the same level.

Researchers will present their findings even if it is flimsy in order to increase funding so they can keep digging. But I should add that not all of it was flimsy. Like you said, there is good evidence that Liaoxi was conquered by Baekje for a time.

During the Dark Ages, the Vikings didn't use their longboats to try to conquer just one locations. They invaded many places. It's possible that Baekje tried to conquer other regions in Eastern China as well.

You don't need to worry. South Koreans are some of the most educated people in the world. They're not going to fall for anything stupid.

This post has been edited by Kanadian: Mar 12 2010, 11:19 AM

[kimbongnam3]

You don't need to worry. South Koreans are some of the most educated people in the world. They're not going to fall for anything stupid.

It's a shame how some ultra-nationalistic people can go delusional tho. But not many Koreans are what the Chinese view as, they are few. And KBS and MBC are idiots, they forget what they should be representing. A year ago, MBC had a documentary as 'Kim's ancestor is Xiongno', but that's just one part of theory and even though it's true they were just part of it. Not like Shinla was founded by them, but effect on some people were huge, that some often used its theory to distort people from Kyongsang province

[Wolfpack]

Then I should say that I know enough Classical Chinese to understand what a particular passage in an ancient text means, most of the times. Modern Mandarin gives me some trouble; however, most pre-modern Chinese texts were not written in a vernacular format, so it's not a prerequisite. It does unfortunately mean that I am not very schooled in Chinese-language articles published in the PRC. That is a limitation that I deal with by following people who do keep up with the research there, and who publish summaries of them from time to time. But if you asked me to cite the last ten articles published in China about, say, the relationship between Wei and Qi during the Warring States, I wouldn't be able to do it.

As for the Korean pseudo-history buffs, you should understand that they don't actually do the research themselves. Like I said, there are networks of nationalist historians in Korea that provide the material, and these people do know Chinese, even if they sometimes distort it to suit their agendas.

So pretty much, you don't understand Chinese, correct? What is your background then?

I don't understand how not knowing vernacular Chinese (the misnomer "Mandarin" has nothing to do with written language) has anything to do with examining pre-modern sources. And I don't see how not being "schooled in Chinese-language articles published in the PRC" is relevant to anything. Are you suggesting you can are somehow "schooled" in Chinese language articles published outside the PRC?

Whether or not there is a "network" of "nationalist historians" in South Korea is not my concern. The Koreans not exactly well known when it comes to the study of Chinese history (or even their own history). This probably has to do with their incompetence in understanding the written Chinese script. If anything, the Japanese are by far, much more well regarded when it comes to studying Chinese history.

This post has been edited by Wolfpack: Mar 14 2010, 05:31 PM

[thoopnon]

Korean History and Civilization

KBS: Korean Civilization
KBS: Korean Civilization 2

"The vast land of the Manju, which is now Chinese territory, has a living and breathing history of Korean ancestors."
"The discovery of 5000 year old Goddess statues in Oct 1984, have shocked the Chinese archaeological society."
"The excavation reveals the sign of the birth of new civilization."
"Among East Asian Civilization, this area has the oldest and most developed civilization."
"This has been termed 'Yoha Civilization'."
"Prof. Yi Hyunggyu who has studied 'Yoha Civilization' for 30 years declares that Yoha civilization is strongly related with us Koreans, not Chinese."
"In Wuharyan, 5500 year old remains along with the temple of the Goddess are concentrated."

KBS: Korean Civilization 3

"Since the 1980s, the cultures older and more developed than Yellow River civilization have been discovered in northeastan asia, outside the chinese wall."
"However, recently, as a huge number of ancient historic sites and remains have been unearthed in northern asia, outside the wall, they are now trying to
make the rich cultures proven from the discoveries the root of the Hua civilization, which is a self-contradictory non-sense."
"China has got upset with the fact that outside the chinese wall (northeastern asia), more developed civilization than the Hua civilization (Chinese civilization) has been
found:"

This post has been edited by thoopnon: May 18 2010, 09:23 PM

[Titanium]

Why revive an old thread??? Anyways this issue is a goner, the Dongbei Region (The area that Pan-Altai nationalist looneys nut over) is already sinified. I for one am not concerned about who it belonged to in the past, it doesn't matter now just as it doesn't matter that the entire New World was once dominated by Native Indians, that was then this is now.




This post has been edited by Titanium: May 20 2010, 09:50 AM

[EliteFighter]

Maybe they should get reunited first before talking about conquering lost stretches of ancestral homeland in China's Northeast.

If you can't get your present situation under control, don't even think about talking about something you lost 1600 years ago.

[Taln]

Exactly, it's a South Korean channel that broadcasts to 50 million people in a world of 6.5 billion. Again I ask, why should it matter and how is it relevant? If the channel was an American broadcast that programs to 300 million Americans, maybe then I'd be concerned but KBS? LOL. I respect your valiant effort and academic prowess, I just prefer not to waste my time on such trivial matters.

Titanium, KBS is broadcast in the U.S. It is almost the sole source Americans have for Korean information, especially Korean history. Not that it takes any notable market share in American broadcasting, but it has no opposition to anything it broadcasts that is presented as truth. American who don't take the time to question historical dramas or documentaries coming KBS have only very westernized productions to give any other viewpoint - and those are usually even more distorted than what comes from KBS. There are a occasional Chinese produced programs broadcast here about Chinese history on a Chinese network, but only if you have one of the rare satellite providers that airs it. but that is maybe 12 episodes of one show vs. maybe 12 shows in the course of a single month from KBS.