ORIGINS OF THE MALAY RACE Options

[Betong]

Demo tengok dia claim yg ore Melayu asl dari Siam??? Logik ko dok??? Mmg dok logik... Bg kawe ni adalah dahyah utk katakan org Melyu Tani adalah ore Siam sebenarnya dan perjuangan mereka untuk memartabatkan bahasa dan bangsa adalah tidak logik.

[pattiasina]

Care to explain about this. Did the King Magrai only live about (1239-1317) and his Kingdom was ChiangRai ? and certainly Malay Malaysian culture was started long before that? And do you say that Ayudhya was actually a Malay (Thailand) kingdom by referring that Thailand (or maybe just southern part of Thailand???) was ancestor of Malay races..

No, his kingdom was not called Chaingrai. It was only a river tributary sate that expaned outwards into Cambodia, Laos and Indodonesia by trade. In fact King Mangri or Mangri the great was the only wriiten evidence of the Thai Empire since Neolophitc times. The Thai civilisation gave birth to two great Kingdoms - Sukhotai and Ayuthha . As you said, Ayuttha was a Maaly-Saimese Kingodm state empire. It was during thsi empire that Thai Buddhism reached its zeniteh and Theravda Buddhism spreaeded in to Laos and Vietnam. The cyncretism of Brahmah hinduism abd Thai Therevada Buddhism were the first campur religious influence on the Malay culture . this fact is most evident in thatthe Malay royality and political structure is still based on the hindu Brahmah caste system today , even though Malaysia is constitutionally sunni Islam and has not divorced from its animistic syncretic roots.
Ayuttha continued to prosper under the 10 great Kings after Mangri . It was the last king Nagrai or Nari who pursued extenstive trade and foreign diplomacy with its neighboring regions including China and India. After his reign marked the declined of Ayuttyha which suffered twice attacks burmese invasions, only to be re-unified by General King Pya Thaksin . He re-established his capital in Bangkok and changed Siam to Thailand , meaning Free alnd to commenrate his victorious exepedtion and proclaiming himself as the Rama I . His reign was the commencement of the Chakri dynasty and it is still so in present day known as the Rattionkosin period by Ramma 9 and its cabinet.

Menwhile, during the Burmese invasion, remaiins of the royal lineage fled Thailand into Java and formed the Sailender Kingdom . They built the famous East Javese borudurdur being adherent of vijarayan Buddhism and Mahanybna buddhism from tibet, Marked by several stupas after designs of the Thai hindu Braham architecture blended with influenceds from Sri Lanka . consequently, the Borubodur design was neither purely Thai or Indian or Indonesain but a mixtuire . Hence its influences up to today. Thus, the Malays were not Thai nor part of Thailand in a strict geographic sense but merely received Thai influences and belonged intially under Thai domince. Langasuka, Pan Pan and Pattani as early Maaly Kingdoms devoloped sparodically . their links were so close to the extent that the early indigenous intermaried with local Thais natives as according to the Melayu Sejarah. You can get the Melayu Sejarah website and it explains a lot clearer.

[kermit_criminal]

Conceptually, a 'Malay' person should be looked at 2 level: (1) A 'Malay' at a RACE, stock or racial stock level, and (2) A 'Malay' at the ETHNIC level. See Wikipedia explanation at:(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malay_race) and (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malay_people)

(1) Malay at the ethnic level

A person can be RACIALLY Malay but still ETHNICALLY not a Malay. But all ethnic Malays ara racially Malays. Confused? Ethnic Malays live mainly in Malaysia, Indonesia Thailand, Singapore and Brunei.

Other ethnic groups within the Malay RACE but definitely not ethnically Malays are Javanese, Sundanese, Bataks, Minangkabaus, Acehnese, Banjarese and Bugis (examples from Indonesia), Tetum, Mambae, Tukudede, Galoli and Kemak (examples from East Timor) and Tagalogs,Cebuano, Ilocano, Bisaya, Hiligaynon and Bikol (examples from Philippines).

Today there are 22 million ethnic Malays living in Malaysia (about 12 milion; 2006 census), Indonesia (about 7 milion; 2000 census), Thailand (about 2 million; 2006 census), Singapore (0.6 million; 2006 census) and Brunei (about 0.25 million; 2006 census).

Malaysia has the largest single group of ethnic Malays. Malaysia and Brunei are the only ethnic Malay states in the world. Ethnically, Indonesia and Philipines are not ethnic Malay states although they are Malay states at the race level.
Ethnic Malays are an ethnic group of the Austronesian peoples, they speak Bahasa Melayu (literally means Malay language), the language which is now the official/national language of Malaysia, Singapore and Brunei and in Indonesia where it is modified and renamed Bahasa Indonesia (literally means Indonesian language)

The Malay people are believed to have originated in Borneo and then expanded outwards into Sumatra and later into the Malay Peninsula. These people were descendants of Austronesian-speakers who migrated from the Philippines and originally from Taiwan. The main foundation of this school of thought lies in the fact that the oldest Malay settlements have been discovered in Sumatra and not in the Malay Peninsula. This suggests an upward - south to north - migratory route.

The word "Malay" was adopted into English via the Dutch word "Malayo", itself from Portuguese "Malaio", which originates from the Malay word "Melayu". According to one popular theory, the word Melayu means "migrating" or "fleeing", which might refer to the high mobility of these people across the region.

(2) Malay at the race, stock and racial stock level

Malay as a race not limited to just ethnic Malays is a concept espoused by westerners (Stamford Raffles and Johann Frederich Blumenbach). Malays as a single race refer to all indigeneous peoples of Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, Madagascar, Brunei, Singapore and East Timor. All indigeneous ethnic groups of these countries, Malays and otherwise, are al Malays racially. So, Javanese, Bataks, Bugis, Tetum, Mumbae, Bisaya, cebuano, Merina, Betsileo (Madagascar) .. and least but not least, ethnic Malaysa themselves are all MALAYS.

This means over 90% of people of Philippines and Indonesia are Malays, about 60% in Malaysia, about 70% in Brunei.

At racial level, Malaysia, Brunei, Indonesia, Philippines, Madagascar are all Malay states. Indonesia is correct when it says only 7% of its people are Malays. Philippines is also correct when it says 98% of its people are Malays. They use different levels to define 'Malay'.

In Malaysia. 'Malay' is defined very differently.

wow thanks for the very informative post, didnt know the term malay had two separate meanings. sort of explains how views of malaysians and other malay(racially) peoples differ in views regarding various malay related subjects

[Jc2]

Of course, people who come from Indonesia or Philippines to Malaysia TODAY are no longer accepted as "Malays" .. they are simply officially labeled as "Indonesians" or "Filipinos" in offical documents ... it is already past Malaysia Day ... so, they are constitutionally not "Malays" in Malaysia.

What if the person from Indonesia is a Malay speaking ethnic Malay from Sumatra. Would they still be included under "Indonesians" or "Malays"?

[Betong]

No, his kingdom was not called Chaingrai. It was only a river tributary sate that expaned outwards into Cambodia, Laos and Indodonesia by trade. In fact King Mangri or Mangri the great was the only wriiten evidence of the Thai Empire since Neolophitc times. The Thai civilisation gave birth to two great Kingdoms - Sukhotai and Ayuthha . As you said, Ayuttha was a Maaly-Saimese Kingodm state empire. It was during thsi empire that Thai Buddhism reached its zeniteh and Theravda Buddhism spreaeded in to Laos and Vietnam. The cyncretism of Brahmah hinduism abd Thai Therevada Buddhism were the first campur religious influence on the Malay culture . this fact is most evident in thatthe Malay royality and political structure is still based on the hindu Brahmah caste system today , even though Malaysia is constitutionally sunni Islam and has not divorced from its animistic syncretic roots.

Ooo sorry now we talking about Thai unofficial story??? I'm not a historic scolar but AFAIK that we can only trace the present of Thai people started from the first kingdom Sukhotai. And AFAIK that Thai got their Therevada Buddhism through their interaction with Khmer with establish their kingdom in present day Thailand as early as 2nd century??? So I really doubt about your claim that Thai was center for almost everything in SEA's mainland???

Ayuttha continued to prosper under the 10 great Kings after Mangri . It was the last king Nagrai or Nari who pursued extenstive trade and foreign diplomacy with its neighboring regions including China and India. After his reign marked the declined of Ayuttyha which suffered twice attacks burmese invasions, only to be re-unified by General King Pya Thaksin . He re-established his capital in Bangkok and changed Siam to Thailand , meaning Free alnd to commenrate his victorious exepedtion and proclaiming himself as the Rama I . His reign was the commencement of the Chakri dynasty and it is still so in present day known as the Rattionkosin period by Ramma 9 and its cabinet.

but for me I still believe Thailand means "Land of the Thai" just because it was change during the nationalist period??

Menwhile, during the Burmese invasion, remaiins of the royal lineage fled Thailand into Java and formed the Sailender Kingdom . They built the famous East Javese borudurdur being adherent of vijarayan Buddhism and Mahanybna buddhism from tibet, Marked by several stupas after designs of the Thai hindu Braham architecture blended with influenceds from Sri Lanka . consequently, the Borubodur design was neither purely Thai or Indian or Indonesain but a mixtuire . Hence its influences up to today. Thus, the Malays were not Thai nor part of Thailand in a strict geographic sense but merely received Thai influences and belonged intially under Thai domince. Langasuka, Pan Pan and Pattani as early Maaly Kingdoms devoloped sparodically . their links were so close to the extent that the early indigenous intermaried with local Thais natives as according to the Melayu Sejarah. You can get the Melayu Sejarah website and it explains a lot clearer.

Are we talking about the Thai or what here??? Are you claim the Thai was same as Funan who regarded themselves as king of the mountain???? Sorry but you do mess around with official history here and claim everything was Thai??? hahahaha, even you want to claim that everything own by the Khmer people was Thai??? I don't understand that???

[Betong]

What if the person from Indonesia is a Malay speaking ethnic Malay from Sumatra. Would they still be included under "Indonesians" or "Malays"?

If he Indonesian by nationality he was Indonesians regarding what happen.

[Esfandiari]

Demo tengok dia claim yg ore Melayu asl dari Siam??? Logik ko dok??? Mmg dok logik... Bg kawe ni adalah dahyah utk katakan org Melyu Tani adalah ore Siam sebenarnya dan perjuangan mereka untuk memartabatkan bahasa dan bangsa adalah tidak logik.

Betul betong .. saya rasa pandangan kamu betul. Mengaku bangsa Melayu berasal dari Siam mungkin satu dakyah untuk menghalalkan penerusan strangulasi Siam ke atas bangsa Melayu Pattani... saya akan respon pd teori dalam thread in berikutnys..

[Esfandiari]

What if the person from Indonesia is a Malay speaking ethnic Malay from Sumatra. Would they still be included under "Indonesians" or "Malays"?

I think Betong has answered that question very nicely .... regardless what, an Indonesian who comes to Malaysia TODAY or after August 31, 1963 (the day Malaysia was formed) is simply an "Indonesian" in official Malaysian category, not a "Malay", even if he/she is a Bahasa Melayu-speaking ethnic Malay Muslim from Sumatra.... the Constitution requires that.

[singapak2]

I think Betong has answered that question very nicely .... regardless what, an Indonesian who comes to Malaysia TODAY or after August 31, 1963 (the day Malaysia was formed) is simply an "Indonesian" in official Malaysian category, not a "Malay", even if he/she is a Bahasa Melayu-speaking ethnic Malay Muslim from Sumatra.... the Constitution requires that.

That is weird. What abt those from Singapore?
around 80% Singaporean Malay-race people are not of Malay ethnic and are mostly from Indonesia-Javanese, Bugis etc..

Those Singaporean Javanese-ethnic Malay-race, categorised as what when he or she comes to Malaysia after 31 August 1963?

[Esfandiari]

That is weird. What abt those from Singapore?
around 80% Singaporean Malay-race people are not of Malay ethnic and are mostly from Indonesia-Javanese, Bugis etc..

Those Singaporean Javanese-ethnic Malay-race, categorised as what when he or she comes to Malaysia after 31 August 1963?

My feelings is that, under Article 160 of Malaysian Constitution, Singaporean Malays may be treated like Indonesians too, i.e., constitutionally they may noy be considered "Malays". The Article below does say that Article 160 no longer applies to Singapore. But you need not worry whether Malaysia condiders you Malays or not. The most important is what does the Singapore government officialy Malays in Singapore? Does the Singapore Constitution group together as "Malays" all theMalay ethnic groups or does it officially classify them individually as "Javanese (Jawa)", "Boyans", "Bugis", etc, etc. I am myself am not familiar with Singapore laws, care to explain?

See below (Copied and pasted from: http://www.answers.com/topic/article-160-o...on-of-malaysia)

Article 160 of the Constitution of Malaysia
Article 160 of the Constitution of Malaysia defines various terms used in the Constitution. It has an important impact on Islam in Malaysia and the Malay people due to its definition of a Malay person under clause 2. It took effect after August 31 1957 ("Merdeka Day" or "Independence Day") in West Malaysia, and took effect in Singapore and East Malaysia when they merged with Malaya in 1963. The article no longer applies to Singapore, as it declared independence from Malaysia in 1965; however, it does affect the legal status of Malay Singaporeans when they enter Malaysia.


Definition of a Malay
The article defines a Malay as a Malaysian citizen born to a Malaysian citizen who professes to be a Muslim, habitually speaks the Malay language, adheres to Malay customs, and is domiciled in Malaysia or Singapore. As a result, Malay citizens who convert out of Islam are no longer considered Malay under the law. Hence, the Bumiputra privileges afforded to Malays under Article 153 of the Constitution, the New Economic Policy (NEP), etc. are forfeit for such converts.

Likewise, a non-Malay Malaysian who converts to Islam can lay claim to Bumiputra privileges, provided he meets the other conditions. A higher education textbook conforming to the government Malaysian studies syllabus states: "The non-Malay thought that is when a non-Malay embraces Islam, he is said to masuk Melayu (become a Malay in Malay language)[citation needed]. That person is automatically assumed to be fluent in the Malay language and to be living like a Malay as a result of his close association with the Malays."[1]

[Jc2]

Are Filipinos and Indonesians considered "bumiputra" in Malaysia?

[Esfandiari]

Are Filipinos and Indonesians considered "bumiputra" in Malaysia?

To asnwer your question, please read article below (taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumiputra )



Definition
The definition of Bumiputra in Malaysia are based on the Federal Constitution of Malaysia. These definition may be vary in different institution, organization or other government deparments and agencies.

According to the book entitled "Buku Panduan Kemasukan ke Institusi Pengajian Tinggi Awam, Program Pengajian Lepasan SPM/Setaraf Sesi Akademik 2007/2008", by Student Entry Management under Management Department of Higher Education Institution, Malaysia Higher Education Ministry; The definition of Bumiputra are as follow:

Peninsular Malaysia
"If one of the parent are Muslim Malay or Orang Asli as stated in Article 160 (2) Federal Constitution of Malaysia; thus the child is considered as a Bumiputra"
Sabah
"If a father is a Muslim Malay or indigenous native of Sabah as stated in Article 160A (6)(a) Federal Constitution of Malaysia; thus his child is considered as a Bumiputra"
Sarawak
"If both of the parent are indigenous native of Sarawak as stated in Article 160A (6)(b) Federal Constitution of Malaysia; thus their child is considered as a Bumiputra"


So, my feelings are that Indonesians and Filipinos are not Bumiputras.

[dalawapo]

malaysia did a beautiful thing representing their dusun tribes this year in the miss univeree pagaent. i hope they win!

[Betong]

That is weird. What abt those from Singapore?
around 80% Singaporean Malay-race people are not of Malay ethnic and are mostly from Indonesia-Javanese, Bugis etc..

Those Singaporean Javanese-ethnic Malay-race, categorised as what when he or she comes to Malaysia after 31 August 1963?

What weird Singa. Singaporean are Singaporean. Even if he comes before 1963 but due to fact that Singapore are in Malaysia Federation, they also can choose to be Malaysian citizen. You know if you don't want to be Singapore Malay anymore i think you can urge your govt to change it, y'know. In Malaysia we do refer to any Malay or Javanese or bugis or Boyan or Minang or Aceh or ???? as Melayu. And I don't see the urgency for us Malay Malaysians to declare their sub ethnicity like Javanese or Minang or whatever they want cause they already intermarried with its other.

[swingdoctor]

My feelings is that, under Article 160 of Malaysian Constitution, Singaporean Malays may be treated like Indonesians too, i.e., constitutionally they may noy be considered "Malays". The Article below does say that Article 160 no longer applies to Singapore. But you need not worry whether Malaysia condiders you Malays or not. The most important is what does the Singapore government officialy Malays in Singapore? Does the Singapore Constitution group together as "Malays" all theMalay ethnic groups or does it officially classify them individually as "Javanese (Jawa)", "Boyans", "Bugis", etc, etc. I am myself am not familiar with Singapore laws, care to explain?

See below (Copied and pasted from: http://www.answers.com/topic/article-160-o...on-of-malaysia)

Article 160 of the Constitution of Malaysia
Article 160 of the Constitution of Malaysia defines various terms used in the Constitution. It has an important impact on Islam in Malaysia and the Malay people due to its definition of a Malay person under clause 2. It took effect after August 31 1957 ("Merdeka Day" or "Independence Day") in West Malaysia, and took effect in Singapore and East Malaysia when they merged with Malaya in 1963. The article no longer applies to Singapore, as it declared independence from Malaysia in 1965; however, it does affect the legal status of Malay Singaporeans when they enter Malaysia.
Definition of a Malay
The article defines a Malay as a Malaysian citizen born to a Malaysian citizen who professes to be a Muslim, habitually speaks the Malay language, adheres to Malay customs, and is domiciled in Malaysia or Singapore. As a result, Malay citizens who convert out of Islam are no longer considered Malay under the law. Hence, the Bumiputra privileges afforded to Malays under Article 153 of the Constitution, the New Economic Policy (NEP), etc. are forfeit for such converts.

Likewise, a non-Malay Malaysian who converts to Islam can lay claim to Bumiputra privileges, provided he meets the other conditions. A higher education textbook conforming to the government Malaysian studies syllabus states: "The non-Malay thought that is when a non-Malay embraces Islam, he is said to masuk Melayu (become a Malay in Malay language)[citation needed]. That person is automatically assumed to be fluent in the Malay language and to be living like a Malay as a result of his close association with the Malays."[1]

I know of some Singapore malays who have moved to malaysia and been accepted as Bumiputera, I think Tanga also knows some.

[malaccan]

I know of some Singapore malays who have moved to malaysia and been accepted as Bumiputera, I think Tanga also knows some.

I've relatives who are still S'porean citizens but have Msian PR. They're treated as bumiputera. Along the same lines, Malay Singaporean and Bruneian citizens get bumiputera discount. Certainly for the developments around KLCC.

[singapak2]

My feelings is that, under Article 160 of Malaysian Constitution, Singaporean Malays may be treated like Indonesians too, i.e., constitutionally they may noy be considered "Malays". The Article below does say that Article 160 no longer applies to Singapore. But you need not worry whether Malaysia condiders you Malays or not. The most important is what does the Singapore government officialy Malays in Singapore? Does the Singapore Constitution group together as "Malays" all theMalay ethnic groups or does it officially classify them individually as "Javanese (Jawa)", "Boyans", "Bugis", etc, etc. I am myself am not familiar with Singapore laws, care to explain?[1]

Javanese, Bugis, Boyanese, Minang etc are all Malay race.

Therefore in Singapore, those people are classified as Malay although in their Identification Card says Javanese etc.

Lots of non-Malays here put themselves as Malay in their IC.
My friend, has Chinese father is "Malay" in IC, and is a Muslim, speaks Malay.
Alot of Arabs, say they are Malay in their IC, and they speak Malay too.

I think in Singapore, one can "choose" any race they want to be. lolx.

[dalawapo]

why do you need a racial identification cards in malaysia?

[Esfandiari]

Javanese, Bugis, Boyanese, Minang etc are all Malay race.

Therefore in Singapore, those people are classified as Malay although in their Identification Card says Javanese etc.

Lots of non-Malays here put themselves as Malay in their IC.
My friend, has Chinese father is "Malay" in IC, and is a Muslim, speaks Malay.
Alot of Arabs, say they are Malay in their IC, and they speak Malay too.

I think in Singapore, one can "choose" any race they want to be. lolx.

Thanks for explanation Singapak. In Malaysia, we have done away with 'sub-ethnic' classification of Jawa, Boyan, Minang, etc. Everbody in Malaysia is a Melayu (Malay) if he/she meets the conditions provided for in Article 160 of Malaysian Constituiton. Besides, there has been so much intermarriages among the sub-ethnics that it really makes no sense anymore to still identify oneself as Melayu, Jawa, Bugis, etc. Also, I have many Malay friends of Jawa or Bugis or other extractions who can't speak Jawa or Bugis anymore! Basically, these guys speak Malay as a mother tongue.

[Esfandiari]

I've relatives who are still S'porean citizens but have Msian PR. They're treated as bumiputera. Along the same lines, Malay Singaporean and Bruneian citizens get bumiputera discount. Certainly for the developments around KLCC.

I too once met a Sri Lankan Malay residing in Malaysia who has been accorded a PR and a Bumiputra status. Also, I think the Kristangs (Malaccan Portuguese) and ethnic Malaysian Siamese (quite many of these people in Kedah, Kelantan, Perlis and Perak) have officially been categorized by the Malaysian Parliament as Bumiputras, meaning that they are entitled to many special priviliges enjoyed by Malays and other Bumiputras. I do not know if the Chittys of Melaka (pre-European Hindu Indian immigrants to Malacca Sultanate who practice Malay culture but religiously Hindus) are categorized as Bumiputras.

So, I think it is possible for foreign Malays and Malaysia's non-Malay indigeneous people to be Bumiputras though I don't think they will be accorded the status of "Malay" unless they are Muslims.