Luzon as the Lesser Song Dynasty and related topics, Not for Sinophobes. Options

[ocrapdm]

The Luzon Empire (呂宋國)

Written History:
In 1279 AD, in the Naval Battle of Yamen (崖門戰役) at the Pearl River Delta (珠江), the final conflict between the Mongol Forces (元) and the Southern Sung Empire (南宋國) was fought. The Mongol forces managed to advance to the center of the Southern Sung fleet and attack the boat of the child emperor Songdi Bing (宋帝昺). Seeing no hope of breaking free, the Minister of the Left (重臣) Liu Xiufu (陸秀夫) decided to commit suicide with the boy emperor rather than be captured by the Mongols. He jumped into the sea with the boy emperor and many officials and concubines followed suit. A few days later, the tattered remains of the boy emperor was found floating in Shekou Bay(蛇口). This sealed the fate of the Southern Song Empire.

Purported Oral History:
Before the final sea battle at Yamen (崖門戰役), Minister of the Left Liu Xiufu (陸秀夫) disguised his own son to look like the boy emperor Songdi Bing (宋帝昺). When the Mongols finally managed to attack the center of the Southern Sung fleet, Liu Xiufu committed suicide with his own son disguised as the emperor. The finest and most loyal of the Southern Sung fleet under the command of Grand General Zhang Shijie (張世傑). managed to break off from the battle with the real emperor and escape across the sea. There they established the Lesser Song Empire (呂宋國) at its capital Tondo (東都).

Facts:
1. Even though the corpse of the last emperor of the Southern Song Empire was reportedly found, no graveyard was ever erected.
2. Chinese historians agree that the Southern Sung Fleet under the command of Grand General Zhang Shijie (張世傑) did survive the final Battle of Yamen (崖門戰役) and that they simply vanished from record.
3. Tondo (東都) was the capital of an empire recorded by the Ming Dynasty (大明國) as the Luzon Empire (呂宋國).
4. Luzon Empire (呂宋國) was conquered by the Spaniards in 1571 and the province of Pampanga was the first colonial province carved out of it. The whole northern island was named Luzon. Tondo (東都) still exist today as a mere suburb of Manila.

___________________________________________

"The Philippines then was made up of many little kingdoms with chieftains who were friendly or hostile to each other, but who recognized each other's independence. Trade and commerce was carried on among themselves and with foreigners. The Chinese, Japanese, Arabs, Siamese, Sumatrans and other neighboring traders had brought to the country their various customs and cultures, without attempting to bring the authority of their kings."


Certain tribes such as Tinggianes and Sambals have even the same hairstyles as the Chinese.

Even as Legaspi conquered the various kingdoms of Luzon, he noticed that there are already hundreds of thousands of Chinese concentrated in the central plains and western coasts of Luzon, either living in the city-states of the natives, OR LIVING IN THEIR OWN CITY-STATES. SO with regard to the last sentence, DO CHINESE have the right to the PHILIPPINES? THE ANSWER IS A RESOUNDING YES!

The Philippines belongs not only to the Taiwanese Aboriginal descendants or Malays but ALSO to the Chinese who settled here.

___________________________________________

Ming annals have reported kingdoms in Luzon and called their kings as "wang" / "ong" (in Hokkien). If not for their Chinese connection, they would be called and treated as "barbarian rulers".

The following selection talks about internal politics (and way of life including crimes) in Luzon and the large numbers and way of life of the Hokkien in Luzon. It also attests the closeness of Luzon to Zhangzhou (Fujian province).

The Ming Annals about Luzon in Chinese:
http://web.archive.org/web/20080618154044/...ztyz/ms323.html

___________________________________________

"Duck culture was also practiced by the natives, particularly those around Pateros and Taguig City. This resembled the Chinese methods of artificial incubation of eggs and the knowledge of every phase of a duck's life. This tradition is carried on until modern times."

"Some of them used compass similar to those used among maritime communities of Borneo and traders of China, although most had no need for such devices."

Even agricultural and farming methods in the Philippines were reportedly brought over from Mainland China, according to Prof. Arsenio Manuel and many archaeologists.

___________________________________________

The Haplotype O3 in many Filipinos (especially in Luzon) also attests to a migration from Mainland China.

The premier ruler of Luzon come from a long line of rulers (mixed Bruneian-Chinese) who settled in what is now Pampanga. They thus share bloodlinks with the present Brunei royalty, as well as with the royalties of Tang Dynasty and Song Dynasty of China. If you take a look at it, ALL the world's royalties are interrelated to one another, and this includes the original Chinese ruler of Luzon who intermarried with a Bruneian sultan and eventually gave rise to the Luzon Empire/Kingdom.

Kapampangans have oral traditions about the existence of a large "empire" that traded with other nations. Yes, this is the Lesser Song Dynasty of China, eventually localized into the Liu-sung-kuo, or Luzon Empire.

Manila north of Pasig River was still Kapampangan during the 1500s. Only around 1600s did the Tagalogs capitulated the Kapampangans and occupied Manila, Bulacan, Bataan, and Nueva Ecija. Otherwise, all these are Kapampangan territory. Kapampangans are largely descendants of AMI PEOPLE FROM TAIWAN, not Malay immigrants. On the other hand, Tagalogs and Visayans are partly Malays. Tagalogs were considered to be a Visayan people before (and up to now, pure linguists consider Tagalog to be a Visayan language). Tagalog region during the 1500s only consisted of Batangas up to the Pasig River in Manila, and a few plains in Laguna. Large swathes of Rizal and Quezon then were still largely Negrito/Proto-Ainuid/Australoid.

There were many city-states (city-kingdoms) in Luzon then. The city-states were not only made by natives - in fact, there were A LOT OF CITY-STATES FOUNDED BY JAPANESE, SIAMESE, and CHINESE MIGRANTS!

__________________

So as you can see, the forced imposition of Malay ideals and supposed Malay connection to Luzon is stupid. Luzon is mostly Taiwanese Aboriginal with Chinese and of course, the usual Australoid suspects again. And the haplotypes attests to this.

The reason Luzon natives don't look Chinese for obvious reasons is that Luzonians, like other Filipino peoples, have heavy Australoid admixtures (6-35%, depending on the source), but still, that does not justify the willful erasure of the Chinese origins of the Luzon empire or the Chinese connection of Luzon's peoples.

This post has been edited by ocrapdm: Jan 11 2012, 09:17 PM

[moppom]

how is it that you have time to write this, but dont have time to

a) answer the chinese posters who write to you in chinese

b) explain what "yo habla espanol" means

c) explain why your chinese school has a lot of spanish mestizos

d) explain how you have delicate and soft eurasian features, yet your "chinese relatives are pango."

e) explain why you continue to pretend you are chinese, when you blatantly stated 3 years ago, "No, I'm not Chinoy."

[ocrapdm]

how is it that you have time to write this, but dont have time to

a) answer the chinese posters who write to you in chinese

b) explain what "yo habla espanol" means

c) explain why your chinese school has a lot of spanish mestizos

d) explain how you have delicate and soft eurasian features, yet your "chinese relatives are pango."

e) explain why you continue to pretend you are chinese, when you blatantly stated 3 years ago, "No, I'm not Chinoy."

a) LOL. I did. I even answered one as soon as he posted it.
b) Like I said, it was a typographical error.
c) I did not say that it has LOTS of Spanish Mestizos. I said it has SOME.
d) Well well, a pure pango Pinoy can surely have a Mestizo Eurasian cousin, isn't that right? LOL
e) Chinoy has several meanings. You keep on posting that phrase and yet you never posted the next sentence: "I'm not Chinoy, but I am of Chinese ancestry". By that I referred to Chinoy as 1/2 Chinese and 1/2 Pinoy.

So my question to you is: Why, PinkCream, do you keep harassing users here? I already answered YOUR stupid questions. Sooner or later, if you won't stop your harassment, you're gonna get banned, including your IP.

And don't derail the discussion. I won't mind if you didn't reply to my questions above.

This post has been edited by ocrapdm: Jan 11 2012, 10:34 PM

[moppom]

a) LOL. I did. I even answered one as soon as he posted it.
b) Like I said, it was a typographical error.
c) I did not say that it has LOTS of Spanish Mestizos. I said it has SOME.
d) Well well, a pure pango Pinoy can surely have a Mestizo Eurasian cousin, isn't that right? LOL
e) Chinoy has several meanings. You keep on posting that phrase and yet you never posted the next sentence: "I'm not Chinoy, but I am of Chinese ancestry". By that I referred to Chinoy as 1/2 Chinese and 1/2 Pinoy.

So my question to you is: Why, PinkCream, do you keep harassing users here? I already answered YOUR stupid questions. Sooner or later, if you won't stop your harassment, you're gonna get banned, including your IP.

And don't derail the discussion. I won't mind if you didn't reply to my questions above.

a) thats odd, from what im reading, most chinese posters conclude that you are not chinese due to basic amateur mistakes, which all point to a 100% google translated sentence

b) No - you said it was actually correct - only to flip flop to your current stance that it was typographical - besides how can it be a typo if a is nowhere next to o on the keyboard?

c) You can't flip flop your story and say "a lot" means "some" - first of all you refuse to address the fact that your chinese school has spanish mestizos at all, which in itself is highly suspect. Second, this is a complete 180 from what you said before. You used to go on about how your school was all chinese with some tagalog - then you added in koreans to try avoid getting caught, then even worse, you added in spanish mestizos lmao..

d) technically correct - although your sentence implies that you [supposedly 87.5% chinese] have 100% pango chinese relatives..I repeat: "My chinese relatives are pango."

e) lmao - you cant all of a sudden change the benchmarks. What your sentence implies is that you do not have enough chinese blood to consider yourself chinese, but you do after all have some chinese blood. Which may or may not be true - the fact is that even if you do, it is not enough for you to truly consider yourself chinese. Besides, what chinese blood you do have, you admitted that your chinese relatives are pango!! [YOU said it, not me ]




There is a plethora of statements made by you in the past which completely contradicts everything you are saying today. Mind you, this is only the tip of the iceberg, as this was only 5 of about 10 or 12 contradictions you made....the most interesting of which is how you went from illiterate to fluent to advanced spanish all in the space of one week !

[ocrapdm]

a) thats odd, from what im reading, most chinese posters conclude that you are not chinese due to basic amateur mistakes, which all point to a 100% google translated sentence

b) No - you said it was actually correct - only to flip flop to your current stance that it was typographical - besides how can it be a typo if a is nowhere next to o on the keyboard?

c) You can't flip flop your story and say "a lot" means "some" - first of all you refuse to address the fact that your chinese school has spanish mestizos at all, which in itself is highly suspect. Second, this is a complete 180 from what you said before. You used to go on about how your school was all chinese with some tagalog - then you added in koreans to try avoid getting caught, then even worse, you added in spanish mestizos lmao..

d) technically correct - although your sentence implies that you [supposedly 87.5% chinese] have 100% pango chinese relatives..I repeat: "My chinese relatives are pango."

e) lmao - you cant all of a sudden change the benchmarks. What your sentence implies is that you do not have enough chinese blood to consider yourself chinese, but you do after all have some chinese blood. Which may or may not be true - the fact is that even if you do, it is not enough for you to truly consider yourself chinese. Besides, what chinese blood you do have, you admitted that your chinese relatives are pango!! [YOU said it, not me ]

There is a plethora of statements made by you in the past which completely contradicts everything you are saying today. Mind you, this is only the tip of the iceberg, as this was only 5 of about 10 or 12 contradictions you made....the most interesting of which is how you went from illiterate to fluent to advanced spanish all in the space of one week !

a) Oh really? The fact is that they said I made ONLY ONE mistake. And you see, that ONE mistake is due to the fact that Mandarin and Hokkien initially didn't share the same writing system. As ONE Hokkien in that thread later confirmed, the article "chhi-ge" is really USED in Hokkienese language. Even Cantonese and Mandarin writing systems don't always match. I can give you a lot of examples but it simply isn't worth the time...

b) I already said what is needed to be said. If you don't accept it, then don't. JUST DON'T DERAIL THIS THREAD, OK?

c) What all Chinese? It IS a Chinese school alright. But that doesn't preclude Tagalogs, Koreans, and those with Spanish ancestry from entering the school. Of course all Chinese schools somehow would have SOME students of Spanish ancestry - after all, this is the Philippines, a former Spanish colony. And besides, the Spanish Mestizos I am talking about are mostly Chinese-Spanish, NOT Filipino-Spanish.

d) I said that of the pango relatives I have are those who are Chinese. This is vastly different from saying that ALL my Chinese relatives are pango.

e) Like I said, not Chinoy means 1/2 Chinese-1/2 Filipino. You see, all old members here know that I am Chinese since the outset. If you're not convinced, then don't believe me. LOL

f) What Spanish-illiterate? Like I said before, I can read Spanish books, and in fact, I do read Spanish books.


And even if I deliberately chose to lie about my identity (which isn't the case anyway), WHAT IS THAT TO YOU?!?! Are you my KEEPER?

And honestly, I don't see why a Filipino would like to claim to be PURE Chinese. Only the ones who are Chinese would claim to be so.

This is my last reply to you, considering you're here to DERAIL THIS TOPIC.

If you hate the Chinese (which you do, considering your White heritage), you better get out of the Philippines because like it or not, the Philippines, whatever it is now, is partly based on its Chinese heritage. LOL. Just LOL.

This post has been edited by ocrapdm: Jan 12 2012, 05:47 AM

[moppom]

a) Oh really? The fact is that they said I made ONLY ONE mistake. And you see, that ONE mistake is due to the fact that Mandarin and Hokkien initially didn't share the same writing system. As ONE Hokkien in that thread later confirmed, the article "chhi-ge" is really USED in Hokkienese language. Even Cantonese and Mandarin writing systems don't always match. I can give you a lot of examples but it simply isn't worth the time...

b) I already said what is needed to be said. If you don't accept it, then don't. JUST DON'T DERAIL THIS THREAD, OK?

c) What all Chinese? It IS a Chinese school alright. But that doesn't preclude Tagalogs, Koreans, and those with Spanish ancestry from entering the school. Of course all Chinese schools somehow would have SOME students of Spanish ancestry - after all, this is the Philippines, a former Spanish colony. And besides, the Spanish Mestizos I am talking about are mostly Chinese-Spanish, NOT Filipino-Spanish.

d) I said that of the pango relatives I have are those who are Chinese. This is vastly different from saying that ALL my Chinese relatives are pango.

e) Like I said, not Chinoy means 1/2 Chinese-1/2 Filipino. You see, all old members here know that I am Chinese since the outset. If you're not convinced, then don't believe me. LOL

f) What Spanish-illiterate? Like I said before, I can read Spanish books, and in fact, I do read Spanish books.


And even if I deliberately chose to lie about my identity (which isn't the case anyway), WHAT IS THAT TO YOU?!?! Are you my KEEPER?

And honestly, I don't see why a Filipino would like to claim to be PURE Chinese. Only the ones who are Chinese would claim to be so.

This is my last reply to you, considering you're here to DERAIL THIS TOPIC.

If you hate the Chinese (which you do, considering your White heritage), you better get out of the Philippines because like it or not, the Philippines, whatever it is now, is partly based on its Chinese heritage. LOL. Just LOL.

a) No they didnt - they said your ENTIRE SENTENCE was one giant mistake lol. And despite your self-proclaimed 90% chinese heritage, you still avoid chinese chat like the plague and have not gone there after over 1 year and attempted to correct it. Your sentence was google translated, just like your spanish sentece, and you were foudn out.

b) Im confused here... I first asked what that meant, and your reply was along the lines of

"Yo habla espanol is correct"

and today's response

"It was a typo"

which is amusing because a and o, are nowhere near each other on the keyboard so it sure as hell wasnt a typo.



c)Well here you are flip flopping again. So now its spanish-chinese mestizos...ok - but that doesnt explain all those anglo-american nordic looking mestizos you were talking about in one of your other posts.

d) Hence, you have pango chinese relatives - perhaps you ought to thank your 1% filipino genes for your delicate soft eurasian features lmao


e) your story is obvious bull$hit, it was an admission that you werent chinese enonugh to be considerd chinoy, but still had a smal amount of chinese blood...


ill just play along though - if you did not consider yourself chinoy back then, then what did you consider yourself?



f) You lie again - you went from

"I used to speak fluent Spanish when I was a kid but by now, I only know English, Tagalog, and Hokkien. "

to

"Anyways, I do speak fluent Hokkien, Spanish, and can get by with Mandarin."

to

"Why would I use a translator when I know advanced Spanish (not fluent, but at least advanced)????"

all in the space of one week

hence why i asked: how did you go from illeterate to fluent to "just advanced"

lmao


and this literally is only the tip of the iceberg

[trismegistos]

I think this theory was originally conceptualized by Mike Pangilinan together with his Fil-Chinese friends.

What is proven however is Ong Sum Bing/Ping or Huang Sen Ping, probably a Ming prince or an official, was given a title of Pengiran Maharaja Lela by a Bruneian Sultan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huang_Senping

Nakhoda/Nakoda Ragam or the Bruneian Sultan Bolkeiah or known locally as Gat Lontok together with his uncle, Ong Sum Ping, invaded the Luzon kingdom in order to monopolize the China trade. Some historians even confounded this Srilela as the first ruler of Manila, another Srilela regarded as Raja Soliman I, which was actually the son of Nakhoda Ragam with the princess daughter of the vanquished Majapahit ruler of Luzon. Another Majapahit prince, Prince Balagtas, the son of Angka Wijaya with Princess Sasaban of the Kingdom of Sapa(Kingdom of Luzon), married the daughter of Sultan Bolkeiah.

The Bruneian rulers were indeed of mixed ancestry with Arabic, Indian and Chinese admixture on indigenous Malay/Bisayan root ancestry as symbolized on their royal ceremonies.

This post has been edited by trismegistos: Jan 13 2012, 01:32 AM

[ocrapdm]

I think this theory was originally conceptualized by Mike Pangilinan together with his Fil-Chinese friends.

What is proven however is Ong Sum Bing/Ping or Huang Sen Ping, probably a Ming prince or an official, was given a title of Pengiran Maharaja Lela by a Bruneian Sultan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huang_Senping

Nakhoda/Nakoda Ragam or the Bruneian Sultan Bolkeiah or known locally as Gat Lontok together with his uncle, Ong Sum Ping, invaded the Luzon kingdom in order to monopolize the China trade. Some historians even confounded this Srilela as the first ruler of Manila, another Srilela regarded as Raja Soliman I, which was actually the son of Nakhoda Ragam with the princess daughter of the vanquished Majapahit ruler of Luzon. Another Majapahit prince, Prince Balagtas, the son of Angka Wijaya with Princess Sasaban of the Kingdom of Sapa(Kingdom of Luzon), married the daughter of Sultan Bolkeiah.

The Bruneian rulers were indeed of mixed ancestry with Arabic, Indian and Chinese admixture on indigenous Malay/Bisayan root ancestry as symbolized on their royal ceremonies.

The amount of Chinese annals regarding Luzon can't be discounted. Likewise, the large amount of Filipinos especially in Luzon bearing the Haplotype O3 can't be discounted as well. There's bound to be at least some Chinese influence or Chinese descendants among Filipinos today who are descendants of precolonial migrants to Luzon.

I think it's not farfetched to say that Luzon Kingdom was in fact established by Chinese nobility from the Song Dynasty, built on a pre-existing political structure built by Bruneian royalty, centered in what is now Pampanga province.

But.. there's no proof as of now that Majapahit did control Luzon (at the most, it did controlled only Sulu). Likewise, there is this confounding information on whether the Bisayas of Borneo are similar and one as the Bisayas of the Philippines and whether they really derived their name from the Srivijayan empire.

Anyhow, with the above data you're presenting, it seems like the datus, rajahs, and sultans were really NOT locals, but Bruneian or foreigners.

[trismegistos]

The amount of Chinese annals regarding Luzon can't be discounted. Likewise, the large amount of Filipinos especially in Luzon bearing the Haplotype O3 can't be discounted as well. There's bound to be at least some Chinese influence or Chinese descendants among Filipinos today who are descendants of precolonial migrants to Luzon.

I think it's not farfetched to say that Luzon Kingdom was in fact established by Chinese nobility from the Song Dynasty, built on a pre-existing political structure built by Bruneian royalty, centered in what is now Pampanga province.

But.. there's no proof as of now that Majapahit did control Luzon (at the most, it did controlled only Sulu). Likewise, there is this confounding information on whether the Bisayas of Borneo are similar and one as the Bisayas of the Philippines and whether they really derived their name from the Srivijayan empire.

Anyhow, with the above data you're presenting, it seems like the datus, rajahs, and sultans were really NOT locals, but Bruneian or foreigners.

Well, yeah, the Indonesians too have a lot of O3. But these O3 are much older phylogenetically or molecularly speaking than the relatively recent subclades from the Chinese pointing the Southern Origin of O3 for both Chinese and Indonesians including Filipinos. The same is the case for O1 and O2.

The Majapahit Nagakertagama document mentioned Soloot(Sulu) and Saludong, ancient name by the ancient Indonesians for Luzon similar to the way the Bruenians called Luzon or Lusung as Selurung.
Link> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagarakertagama

Nick Joaquin, Isabelo delos Reyes, Austin Craig and Otley Beyer talked about the Majapahit rulers of Manila as attested by the Will of Pansonum written circa 17th century. That Majapahit ruler Angka Wijaya married Dayang Sasaban of the Kingdom of Sapa and begotten Prince Balagtas who married a daughter of Sultan Bolkeiah of Brunei, from his wife, a daughter from the vanquished Lord of Luzon.

I remember Nick Joaquin writing in the PDI claiming that the Kapampangans came from Southern China as the latter are lighter skinned compared with the other natives. He must probably mixed it up the Bellwood's theory.

The ancient royals had a penchant of marrying other ancient royals for trade and political alliances and thus born the Srivijayan and Majapahit networks with Old Malay as lingua franca. And thus the companion of Magellan from Malacca could converse with the native rulers of Central Visayas and understood one another. In Malacca at those time btw, there were lots of Luzonian traders and officials in fact the custom commisioner and police chief, which was second only to the Sultan of Malacca in rank was from Luzon and had a rich relative also from Luzon who traded pepper to China. The rich trader from Luzon also rented his ships and mariners to the Portuguese explorers to teach the Portuguese the trade routes to China and Japan as documented by Tome Pires.

As mentioned, those foreign nobilities had married into the native nobilities to continue the bloodlines for their native subjects. The native subjects considered the offsprings of foreign rulers marrying with their native rulers as their own so much so that they think they too were from Borneo or from Sumatra. Like the Bisayans claiming they are from Borneo or Kapampangans coming from both Borneo and Sumatra. Must be the result of centuries of western colonization. Looking for outside for their lost roots and identity.

The Laguna Copperplate inscription circa 10th century AD, showed the Ruler of Tondo acting as judge and commander in chief to his allies as far as Butuan(Diwata) and Medang in Sumatra/Java. And the language used is not Chinese but a mixture of Old Malay, Old Kapampangan and Old Tagalog written in Kavi script with use of Sanskrit titles and time reckoning terminologies. At that time Srivijayan was at its peak. Isn't that Srivijayan networking at work?

There was even the claim that Srivijayan capital was in Luzon and not in Palembang(Palinfong in Chinese writings) in Sumatra. It was actually the westerner Coedes who coined the term Srivijayan empire for what the Chinese called Shilifoshi or Sanfotsi or Sanfoqi or what the Arabs called Zabag or Zabag(Saba)[Kingdom of Sapa? or Rizal's Tawalisi] and Coedes speculated Srivijayan empire aka Zabag or Sanfotsi as centered in Palembang because of the Bukit inscription found near Palembang mentioned the word Vijaya meaning glorious. Zabag or Sanfotsi was a world of marvels to various adventurers as the Gold Isles with a maharaja who ruled among rajas, an entrepot, an epitome of wealth. And so the Portuguese at the turn of Western discovery of East Indies saw the Luzonians as more eminent and wealthy than the Chins(Chinese). According to Al Biruni, the residence of the Majaraja of Zabaj or Zabag was just east of Champa kingdom and not south where Palembang is, the supposed capital of the Srivijayan empire. Luzon is exactly east of Champa now Vietnam.
http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/sanfotsizabag.htm

The Chinese accounts of Sanfotsi and Toupo started from about the 10th century and 5th century respectively, and both continued up until about the late 1200's. During most of this time, the Muslim geographers also wrote on the same area, basing their accounts on the tales of merchants, ambassadors, etc., to the region. Most scholars are in agreement that Sanfotsi was known to the Muslims as Zabag, while Toupo was known as Wak-wak.

Al-Biruni, a noted writer during this period who travelled to India wrote that Zabag was placed on the eastern side of the Sea of Sanf (Champa or coastal central/south Vietnam)[NOW SOUTH CHINA SEA]. This is confirmed by another famous geographer, Masudi, who stated Zabaj was oriented toward Khmer, which comprises modern Cambodia and South Vietnam, as Ceylon is oriented toward Madurai in South India. It was known as an island rich in gold mines.

Mas'udi noted that this kingdom had on its east side an ocean of unknown extent, which was basically the same as the Great Eastern Ocean-Sea of the Chinese. The latter ocean was also located to the east of Sanfotsi and Toupo, and it was here that the weilu was located, where waters began to go "downward." It is interesting to note that the Muslim writers mention some interesting flora and fauna when describing the main island of the kingdom of Zabaj. Among them were the dwarf buffalo, the python and the giant camphor tree. Now the dwarf buffalo must be either the tamaraw of Mindoro, or the anoa of Celebes. The python is native to both the Philippines and Borneo, as are the giant camphor trees, although these are more common in Borneo.

"In the sea of Champa (off central/south Vietnam) is the empire of Maharaja, the king of the islands, who rules over an empire without limit and has innumerable troops. Even the most rapid vessels could not complete in two years a tour round the isles which are under his possesssion. The territories of this king produce all sorts of spices and aromatics, and no other sovereign of the world gets as much wealth from the soil." (Mas'udi, AD 943)

"the eastern islands in this ocean (Sea of Champa), which are nearer to China than India, are the islands of Zabaj, called by the Hindus, Suvarnadvipa, i.e. the gold islands*... because you obtain much gold as deposit if you wash only a little of the earth of that country." (Al-Biruni, 1030 AD)

"On its shores (i.e. of the sea of Sanf or Champa), are the dominions of a King called Mihraj, who possesses a great number of populous and fertile islands, covered with fields and pastures, and producing ivory, camphor, nutmeg, mace, clove, aloeswood, cardamom, cubeb..." (Idrisi, 1150)

"The gold is plentiful, the horse bits, the chains and necklaces of monkeys, dogs and other beasts are of gold. The chiefs used golden bricks for their houses and forts and official decrees are engraved upon golden paper." (Hordadzbeh)
"Some people told me they had seen a man who had been to Wak-wak, to do business there. He had told of the riches of the country and the islands. I do not mean that their country is so important, but that the people of Wak-wak are numerous. Among them are men who look like Turks. Of all God's creatures none are more capable or clever in the arts; but they are sly, cunning, deceitful and very quick and knowledgeable in everthing they undertake." (Shariyar, 10th century)

*On the subject of the gold of Wak-wak, Pigafetta stated that when he reached the Philippines that even the common people had massive gold ornaments and that everyone ate from gold plates and partly covered their houses with gold. The Philippines still has world-class gold reserves.

This post has been edited by trismegistos: Jan 13 2012, 09:11 AM

[AnybodyKiller]

"The Laguna Copperplate inscription circa 10th century AD, showed the Ruler of Tondo acting as judge and commander in chief to his allies as far as Butuan(Diwata) and Medang in Sumatra/Java. And the language used is not Chinese but a mixture of Old Malay, Old Kapampangan and Old Tagalog written in Kavi script with use of Sanskrit titles and time reckoning terminologies. At that time Srivijayan was at its peak. Isn't that Srivijayan networking at work?"

"And so the Portuguese at the turn of Western discovery of East Indies saw the Luzonians as more eminent and wealthy than the Chins(Chinese). According to Al Biruni, the residence of the Majaraja of Zabaj or Zabag was just east of Champa kingdom and not south where Palembang is, the supposed capital of the Srivijayan empire. Luzon is exactly east of Champa now Vietnam."

Good points. Usually when I bring it up elsewhere, people seem to hint that we're merely a subject or conquered city-state.

Nothing against China at all. But I don't like it when people, even our own perpetuate ideas that certain groups are destined to be our leaders.

[moppom]

"The Laguna Copperplate inscription circa 10th century AD, showed the Ruler of Tondo acting as judge and commander in chief to his allies as far as Butuan(Diwata) and Medang in Sumatra/Java. And the language used is not Chinese but a mixture of Old Malay, Old Kapampangan and Old Tagalog written in Kavi script with use of Sanskrit titles and time reckoning terminologies. At that time Srivijayan was at its peak. Isn't that Srivijayan networking at work?"

"And so the Portuguese at the turn of Western discovery of East Indies saw the Luzonians as more eminent and wealthy than the Chins(Chinese). According to Al Biruni, the residence of the Majaraja of Zabaj or Zabag was just east of Champa kingdom and not south where Palembang is, the supposed capital of the Srivijayan empire. Luzon is exactly east of Champa now Vietnam."

Good points. Usually when I bring it up elsewhere, people seem to hint that we're merely a subject or conquered city-state.

Nothing against China at all. But I don't like it when people, even our own perpetuate ideas that certain groups are destined to be our leaders.

You have to take everything ocrap says with a grain of salt especially when he claims

to have gone from illiterate to fluent to advanced spanish in the space of one week [however, his attempts suggest he is in fact illiterate --> see point 4]

was not chinoy 3 years ago, but is today a proud 90% chinese man who basically just lives in the philippines, but is otherwise chinese.

went to chinese school for 10 [12?] years, yet is incapable of constructing even a simple chinese sentence - on the other hand, his tagalog is excellent

vehemently claimed "yo habla espanol" is correct, only to do a complete 180 and now brush it off as a mere typo.



oh and i forgot to mention: claimed to blend in PERFECTLY in hong kong - yet he supposedly has soft and delicate eurasian features. I'm not certain whether we can believe either one, however he did admit to having pango chinese relatives so maybe that fits in somewhere in the equation.

[Leox]

I know these aren't directed at me and this isn't even the kind of topic I normally post on since I really don't care that much about ancient history, I'm more of a today and the future kind of poster, but I felt the need to comment on some things.

And honestly, I don't see why a Filipino would like to claim to be PURE Chinese. Only the ones who are Chinese would claim to be so.

I'm pure ethnic Chinese myself and see no reason why that would make me less Filipino, my grandparents immigrated from China, but I was born and raised here as a Filipino citizen and never really learned how to speak Chinese even the Chinese school I went to didn't teach it well enough since everyone spoke english and tagalog anyway.

Sometimes it seems like you (Ocrap) are so "Pro-Chinese" that you're actually Anti-Chinese, I mean seriously with such statements as these...

DO CHINESE have the right to the PHILIPPINES? THE ANSWER IS A RESOUNDING YES!

It's almost as if you're purposely trying to piss people off at us ethnic Chinese instead of promoting something constructive, you appear to be trying to emphasize some kind of racial/cultural superiority like white supremacists "We started everything, we're so awesome". I get that your proud of your Chinese ancestry, so am I but geez tone it down and don't flaunt it. Post historical facts as you like, we shouldn't suppress information, but statements like that quote above are highly flammable.

Whatever empire historically held the Philippines anyway has come and gone, the only people who has a right to the Philippines today are Filipino citizens, and regardless of ethnicity if you make a livelihood here, pay your taxes to the Philippine government and have your Philippines' best interest at heart you are Filipino. One's race should be irrelevant, nationality is what counts, and what culture one practices is merely out of personal preference.

I don't know if I'm misunderstanding you or what, I'm just commenting on what it looks like and clearly other posters see it that way.

Nothing against China at all. But I don't like it when people, even our own perpetuate ideas that certain groups are destined to be our leaders.

This post has been edited by Leox: Jan 13 2012, 05:26 PM

[ocrapdm]

Well, yeah, the Indonesians too have a lot of O3. But these O3 are much older phylogenetically or molecularly speaking than the relatively recent subclades from the Chinese pointing the Southern Origin of O3 for both Chinese and Indonesians including Filipinos. The same is the case for O1 and O2.

The Majapahit Nagakertagama document mentioned Soloot(Sulu) and Saludong, ancient name by the ancient Indonesians for Luzon similar to the way the Bruenians called Luzon or Lusung as Selurung.
Link> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagarakertagama

Well, don't forget that Indonesians are also partly Daics. Some Daics also have O3, and that's where Indonesians probably got their O3. But see, Indonesians have much lesser O3 than do Filipinos. And in fact, I think it's safe to deduce that those with O3 are the ones in Indonesia with the lighter skin, while those who have darker skin (and look kinda Veddoid) are O2 or O1.

Likewise, the Ming Annals and other Hokkien commercial documents refer to Luzon as "liu-sung", considering it as part of the "liu-chiu" (Ryukyu) group of islands. Considering both Chinese and Indonesian, I think the word "liu-sung" has a meaning in Chinese. I guess it's just a place name in Indonesian. And in Chinese, it allegedly means :"backbone of the Song", being bastion for the overthrown Song rulers of China.

Nick Joaquin, Isabelo delos Reyes, Austin Craig and Otley Beyer talked about the Majapahit rulers of Manila as attested by the Will of Pansonum written circa 17th century. That Majapahit ruler Angka Wijaya married Dayang Sasaban of the Kingdom of Sapa and begotten Prince Balagtas who married a daughter of Sultan Bolkeiah of Brunei, from his wife, a daughter from the vanquished Lord of Luzon.

I remember Nick Joaquin writing in the PDI claiming that the Kapampangans came from Southern China as the latter are lighter skinned compared with the other natives. He must probably mixed it up the Bellwood's theory.

Majapahit rulers? More like Majapahit envoys. The ONLY direct connection that the Filipinos have to the "other Malays" is through Borneans, specifically Bruneians. Never to Majapahit rulers from Java. And anyway, the endpoint is this: that Luzon's rulers were still foreign.

Well, it's true. Kapampangans are the direct descendants of Taiwanese aboriginals from Taiwan and are not mixed with Daic (through Indonesian) blood. That's why the Northern Filipino peoples' languages such as Ilocano, Cordillera languages, Kapampangan, Gaddang, Ibaloi, and Ivatan are VERY MUCH SIMILAR to Formosan languages, whereas all the Central and Southern Filipino languages are grouped together and are similar to Bornean languages.

The ancient royals had a penchant of marrying other ancient royals for trade and political alliances and thus born the Srivijayan and Majapahit networks with Old Malay as lingua franca. And thus the companion of Magellan from Malacca could converse with the native rulers of Central Visayas and understood one another. In Malacca at those time btw, there were lots of Luzonian traders and officials in fact the custom commisioner and police chief, which was second only to the Sultan of Malacca in rank was from Luzon and had a rich relative also from Luzon who traded pepper to China. The rich trader from Luzon also rented his ships and mariners to the Portuguese explorers to teach the Portuguese the trade routes to China and Japan as documented by Tome Pires.

As mentioned, those foreign nobilities had married into the native nobilities to continue the bloodlines for their native subjects. The native subjects considered the offsprings of foreign rulers marrying with their native rulers as their own so much so that they think they too were from Borneo or from Sumatra. Like the Bisayans claiming they are from Borneo or Kapampangans coming from both Borneo and Sumatra. Must be the result of centuries of western colonization. Looking for outside for their lost roots and identity.

Yeah, Luzon people had a colony in Melaka. But Tome Pires, in his accounts, as well said that the Luzon (Lucoes) people had NO king but were governed by a group of elders. Perhaps he was referring to some islands near Luzon, or to some barangays in Luzon which were relatively independent of the Luzon Kingdom (Liu-sung-kuo).

Old Malay was understood throughout the "Malay" Archipelago because it was the primary language of the colonizers who styled themselves as rulers of the Philippine locals. The "native" royalty intermarried with the royalty of Brunei because firstand foremost, these "native rulers" were in fact migrants from Brunei. Seeing that the Filipino peoples were not united, chose to capitulate them and make them subordinates.

Ergo, Philippines has no MALAY roots at all. But it has Formosan and Bornean roots.

The Laguna Copperplate inscription circa 10th century AD, showed the Ruler of Tondo acting as judge and commander in chief to his allies as far as Butuan(Diwata) and Medang in Sumatra/Java. And the language used is not Chinese but a mixture of Old Malay, Old Kapampangan and Old Tagalog written in Kavi script with use of Sanskrit titles and time reckoning terminologies. At that time Srivijayan was at its peak. Isn't that Srivijayan networking at work?

There was even the claim that Srivijayan capital was in Luzon and not in Palembang(Palinfong in Chinese writings) in Sumatra. It was actually the westerner Coedes who coined the term Srivijayan empire for what the Chinese called Shilifoshi or Sanfotsi or Sanfoqi or what the Arabs called Zabag or Zabag(Saba)[Kingdom of Sapa? or Rizal's Tawalisi] and Coedes speculated Srivijayan empire aka Zabag or Sanfotsi as centered in Palembang because of the Bukit inscription found near Palembang mentioned the word Vijaya meaning glorious. Zabag or Sanfotsi was a world of marvels to various adventurers as the Gold Isles with a maharaja who ruled among rajas, an entrepot, an epitome of wealth. And so the Portuguese at the turn of Western discovery of East Indies saw the Luzonians as more eminent and wealthy than the Chins(Chinese). According to Al Biruni, the residence of the Majaraja of Zabaj or Zabag was just east of Champa kingdom and not south where Palembang is, the supposed capital of the Srivijayan empire. Luzon is exactly east of Champa now Vietnam.
http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/sanfotsizabag.htm

Brunei is also "east" of the Champa kingdom.

I don't see why the Laguna Copperplate Inscription must be held in high esteem. It just talks about the AFFAIRS of foreign Bruneian rulers. Since it was a ROYAL document, it is therefore logical that it would use Old Malay and Kawi script with Sanskrit terminologies. Most likely, these Bruneian rulers are descended from Indianized rulers as well, so they just brought the Indian influence to their new colonies in the Philippines.

In fact, there are three other artifacts with undecipherable inscriptions: the Butuan silver strip (14th century), the Butuan ivory seal (10th century), and the Calatagan jar (15th century).

So if one argues for the "MALAYAN/SRIVIJAYAN" colonization of the Philippines using the Laguna Copperplate Inscription, I might as well use the hundreds of Chinese artifacts and coins also dating back 10th century that are found throughout Philippine seas, especially in Luzon. Their numerical superiority versus Indo-Malayan artifacts of Hindu/Buddhist design shows that the Chinese did settle in Luzon, a fact now being acknowledged by many historians.

Majapahit and Srivijayan COLONIZATION, if ever it did happen (which I doubt, anyway), did not leave significant traces that could document their supposed occupancy/colonization of the Philippines. Most Hindu and Buddhist artifacts found in the Philippines are singular, meaning, they were acquired most likely through trade rather than settlement of Indianized Malays.

If one argues that the Philippines is a Malay country, given the facts above, then I might as well argue that the Philippines is a Chinese country. Obviously, NEITHER ONE IS CORRECT, since the Philippines is basically a country populated by Taiwanese Aboriginal descendants later ruled by Bruneian-Chinese hybrid rulers (not Javanese or Sumatran Srivijayans/Majapahits). Also, we can deduce that before the coming of the Bruneian-Chinese rulers, the locals had no singular authority - rather, they were governed by a group of elder people, which is compatible with Austronesian culture anyway.

[ocrapdm]

I'm pure ethnic Chinese myself and see no reason why that would make me less Filipino, my grandparents immigrated from China, but I was born and raised here as a Filipino citizen and never really learned how to speak Chinese even the Chinese school I went to didn't teach it well enough since everyone spoke english and tagalog anyway.

Sometimes it seems like you (Ocrap) are so "Pro-Chinese" that you're actually Anti-Chinese, I mean seriously with such statements as these...

Yup. Pure Ethnic Chinese born in the Philippines are no less Filipino than the Taiwanese Aboriginal Filipinos (i.e., the natives/locals).

Chinese-Filipinos are BOTH and EQUALLY Chinese and Filipino. The problem is that some other users can't see that as a fact.

LOL. About the school... tell that to pommop/moppom above. He INSISTS that all CHINESE-FILIPINOS should speak fluent Mandarin and use Chinese characters flawlessly. However, as you and I know, this isn't the case in the Philippines where the Chinese are somehow assimilated to the dominant culture.

However, as a PURE Chinese person, I think you should learn somehow to speak your OWN language - if not Mandarin, at least some Hokkien (otherwise called here in the Philippines by Chinese as "lan-lang-oe" - our people's language). Not to mention that it brings more business contacts - most Singaporean Chinese and Taiwanese people speak Hokkien. Just my two cents though.

About the chhut-si-ia (who are mostly pai-hua anyway), they can deny their Chineseness for all they want. Anyway, they aren't Chinese anymore.

It's almost as if you're purposely trying to piss people off at us ethnic Chinese instead of promoting something constructive, you appear to be trying to emphasize some kind of racial/cultural superiority like white supremacists "We started everything, we're so awesome". I get that your proud of your Chinese ancestry, so am I but geez tone it down and don't flaunt it. Post historical facts as you like, we shouldn't suppress information, but statements like that quote above are highly flammable.

Whatever empire historically held the Philippines anyway has come and gone, the only people who has a right to the Philippines today are Filipino citizens, and regardless of ethnicity if you make a livelihood here, pay your taxes to the Philippine government and have your Philippines' best interest at heart you are Filipino. One's race should be irrelevant, nationality is what counts, and what culture one practices is merely out of personal preference.

I don't know if I'm misunderstanding you or what, I'm just commenting on what it looks like and clearly other posters see it that way.

Yeah, but you gotta admit that the quote above hits anti-Chinese sentiments/comments. Look left and right online, there are a lot of locals who are vehemently anti-Chinese (and pro-America/West). Sometimes, you need to hit below the belt so they'll see, know, realize, and recognize who is the true hero/contributor and who is not.

The second paragraph is so true. Chinese-Filipinos are Filipinos and have EVERY RIGHT to the country just as the so-called "locals" do.

And just as you posted your reply in this thread, another Chinese-Filipino compatriot has been brutally killed by criminals the other day, with the police force, staffed by the locals, turning a blind side again. According to writer Amy Chua, the policemen are also envious of the economic success of the Chinese that they actually support/condone the killings by simply doing nothing about it.

Of course, let's not pretend to be blind and deny the thousands of Chinese kidnap for ransom victims.
Given that the Chinese-Filipinos have every right to the Philippines, if the Philippine government doesn't look at the plight of the Chi-Fils and do nothing about the rampant crimes targeting Chi-Fils, WE HAVE EVERY right to declare our own GOVERNMENT that will give us the protection and the RECOGNITION that we DESERVE and that we should ENJOY. Now, isn't that right? And I know that is a flaming conclusion, but again, it's reality. You can't keep on pretending like there's nothing wrong with the rampant thievery, kidnap-for-ransom, kidnap-slaying, and murder of scores of Chinese-Filipinos. These in fact have led to an upsurge of Chinese pride among the Chinese-Filipino youths of today, most of whom have visions of themselves living abroad.

Stupid comments made by some locals include blaming the melamine, drug smuggling, and other issues on Chinese-Filipinos. LOL. Most can't and don't recognize the difference between the local Chinese and mainland Chinese and even Koreans.

[moppom]

Yup. Pure Ethnic Chinese born in the Philippines are no less Filipino than the Taiwanese Aboriginal Filipinos (i.e., the natives/locals).

Chinese-Filipinos are BOTH and EQUALLY Chinese and Filipino. The problem is that some other users can't see that as a fact.

LOL. About the school... tell that to pommop/moppom above. He INSISTS that all CHINESE-FILIPINOS should speak fluent Mandarin and use Chinese characters flawlessly. However, as you and I know, this isn't the case in the Philippines where the Chinese are somehow assimilated to the dominant culture.

However, as a PURE Chinese person, I think you should learn somehow to speak your OWN language - if not Mandarin, at least some Hokkien (otherwise called here in the Philippines by Chinese as "lan-lang-oe" - our people's language). Not to mention that it brings more business contacts - most Singaporean Chinese and Taiwanese people speak Hokkien. Just my two cents though.

About the chhut-si-ia (who are mostly pai-hua anyway), they can deny their Chineseness for all they want. Anyway, they aren't Chinese anymore.



Yeah, but you gotta admit that the quote above hits anti-Chinese sentiments/comments. Look left and right online, there are a lot of locals who are vehemently anti-Chinese (and pro-America/West). Sometimes, you need to hit below the belt so they'll see, know, realize, and recognize who is the true hero/contributor and who is not.

The second paragraph is so true. Chinese-Filipinos are Filipinos and have EVERY RIGHT to the country just as the so-called "locals" do.

And just as you posted your reply in this thread, another Chinese-Filipino compatriot has been brutally killed by criminals the other day, with the police force, staffed by the locals, turning a blind side again. According to writer Amy Chua, the policemen are also envious of the economic success of the Chinese that they actually support/condone the killings by simply doing nothing about it.

Of course, let's not pretend to be blind and deny the thousands of Chinese kidnap for ransom victims.
Given that the Chinese-Filipinos have every right to the Philippines, if the Philippine government doesn't look at the plight of the Chi-Fils and do nothing about the rampant crimes targeting Chi-Fils, WE HAVE EVERY right to declare our own GOVERNMENT that will give us the protection and the RECOGNITION that we DESERVE and that we should ENJOY. Now, isn't that right? And I know that is a flaming conclusion, but again, it's reality. You can't keep on pretending like there's nothing wrong with the rampant thievery, kidnap-for-ransom, kidnap-slaying, and murder of scores of Chinese-Filipinos. These in fact have led to an upsurge of Chinese pride among the Chinese-Filipino youths of today, most of whom have visions of themselves living abroad.

Stupid comments made by some locals include blaming the melamine, drug smuggling, and other issues on Chinese-Filipinos. LOL. Most can't and don't recognize the difference between the local Chinese and mainland Chinese and even Koreans.

lmao except you said that you did learn fluent chinese in school.

And besides, the most damning evidence of all is that you yourself said 3 years ago, "No I'm not Chinoy."

[moppom]

I know these aren't directed at me and this isn't even the kind of topic I normally post on since I really don't care that much about ancient history, I'm more of a today and the future kind of poster, but I felt the need to comment on some things.


I'm pure ethnic Chinese myself and see no reason why that would make me less Filipino, my grandparents immigrated from China, but I was born and raised here as a Filipino citizen and never really learned how to speak Chinese even the Chinese school I went to didn't teach it well enough since everyone spoke english and tagalog anyway.

Sometimes it seems like you (Ocrap) are so "Pro-Chinese" that you're actually Anti-Chinese, I mean seriously with such statements as these...


It's almost as if you're purposely trying to piss people off at us ethnic Chinese instead of promoting something constructive, you appear to be trying to emphasize some kind of racial/cultural superiority like white supremacists "We started everything, we're so awesome". I get that your proud of your Chinese ancestry, so am I but geez tone it down and don't flaunt it. Post historical facts as you like, we shouldn't suppress information, but statements like that quote above are highly flammable.

Whatever empire historically held the Philippines anyway has come and gone, the only people who has a right to the Philippines today are Filipino citizens, and regardless of ethnicity if you make a livelihood here, pay your taxes to the Philippine government and have your Philippines' best interest at heart you are Filipino. One's race should be irrelevant, nationality is what counts, and what culture one practices is merely out of personal preference.

I don't know if I'm misunderstanding you or what, I'm just commenting on what it looks like and clearly other posters see it that way.

Just a question; if you really did go to chinese school, perhaps you could help us out with ocrap's odd situation

were there a lot of

filipinos

koreans

spanish mestizos [chinese spanish mestizos that is]

nordic looking anglo-americans?


ocraps chinese school apparently contained a healthy mix of the above in addition to the ethnic pure chinese.

[Leox]

Just a question; if you really did go to chinese school, perhaps you could help us out with ocrap's odd situation

were there a lot of

filipinos

koreans

spanish mestizos [chinese spanish mestizos that is]

nordic looking anglo-americans?


ocraps chinese school apparently contained a healthy mix of the above in addition to the ethnic pure chinese.

Depends on the school from my experience, generally Chinese schools here just mean they have a chinese class and practice things like Chinese new year and traditions, there are some smaller schools that emphasize more on Chinese I would assume the students there all speak Chinese probably more recent immigrants, not a lot of Filipinos speak Chinese so as you might expect those schools cater to a minority.

I studied in a bigger more recognized school and all general subjects were taught in english, Filipino and Philippine history were taught in tagalog and only one Chinese class. A lot of wealthy fil-chi tend to donate to these bigger schools so its heavily influenced by the fil-chi community. Students were mostly Filipino and Tsinoy, I personally find it hard to distinguish mestizos by appearance unless I know them by name, there were almost no Americans, some others like me pure ethnic Chinese but most of us didn't speak a lot of Chinese those few that did spoke Hokkien, Chinese (Mandarin) was the most annoying subject they pretty much just made us memorize words and sentences didn't learn much from that, I heard they revamped the teaching method after I left, pity would've been useful to learn mandarin.

My grandfather only spoke Hokkien no english or tagalog. My parents can speak Hokkien but having also been born and raised here they have difficulty reading and writing it. They didn't bother much to teach me and I regret not trying to learn earlier on.

This post has been edited by Leox: Jan 13 2012, 11:15 PM

[Leox]

Yeah, but you gotta admit that the quote above hits anti-Chinese sentiments/comments. Look left and right online, there are a lot of locals who are vehemently anti-Chinese (and pro-America/West). Sometimes, you need to hit below the belt so they'll see, know, realize, and recognize who is the true hero/contributor and who is not.

That seriously doesn't even make any sense... I have never had a person see things more my way by busting their balls. If anything they get more defensive, and I wouldn't characterize us Fil-Chinese in general as heroes anyway its just that we run a lot of businesses so we contribute a lot towards productivity and job creation, but we don't get into that out of philanthropy like anyone else we're motivated by capitalism.

Regarding racial crimes that problem does exist to an extent but I don't see how you help the issue by going about the superiority of Chinese history if anything it just enforces the belief that we're different and that the Chinese think they're better than Filipinos, which leads to further racial hatred. You're stirring up a hornets nest.

WE HAVE EVERY right to declare our own GOVERNMENT that will give us the protection and the RECOGNITION that we DESERVE and that we should ENJOY. Now, isn't that right?

Actually that sounds crazy but giving you the benefit of the doubt, could you please clarify exactly what you mean, are you saying that we should have our own Chinese government in the Philippines just for Chinese? Maybe I just misunderstood you.

Out of curiosity where do you live now?

This post has been edited by Leox: Jan 13 2012, 11:50 PM

[ocrapdm]

Just a question; if you really did go to chinese school, perhaps you could help us out with ocrap's odd situation

were there a lot of

filipinos

koreans

spanish mestizos [chinese spanish mestizos that is]

nordic looking anglo-americans?


ocraps chinese school apparently contained a healthy mix of the above in addition to the ethnic pure chinese.

LOL.

I said that there were a lot of Koreans and some Spanish Mestizos and Filipinos. What Anglo-Americans?!?!?!

[ocrapdm]

Depends on the school from my experience, generally Chinese schools here just mean they have a chinese class and practice things like Chinese new year and traditions, there are some smaller schools that emphasize more on Chinese I would assume the students there all speak Chinese probably more recent immigrants, not a lot of Filipinos speak Chinese so as you might expect those schools cater to a minority.

I studied in a bigger more recognized school and all general subjects were taught in english, Filipino and Philippine history were taught in tagalog and only one Chinese class. A lot of wealthy fil-chi tend to donate to these bigger schools so its heavily influenced by the fil-chi community. Students were mostly Filipino and Tsinoy, I personally find it hard to distinguish mestizos by appearance unless I know them by name, there were almost no Americans, some others like me pure ethnic Chinese but most of us didn't speak a lot of Chinese those few that did spoke Hokkien, Chinese (Mandarin) was the most annoying subject they pretty much just made us memorize words and sentences didn't learn much from that, I heard they revamped the teaching method after I left, pity would've been useful to learn mandarin.

My grandfather only spoke Hokkien no english or tagalog. My parents can speak Hokkien but having also been born and raised here they have difficulty reading and writing it. They didn't bother much to teach me and I regret not trying to learn earlier on.

Well, the Chinese schools I know have at least three subjects: Hua-gi ("Chinese Language/Grammar"), Tiong-hap ("Chinese Communication"), and Suan-sut (Mathematics taught in a Chinese way). Some of the Christian Chinese schools have foreign students like one or two Americans or even Nigerians, but most are still Chinese, with some Filipino and now, Korean.

LOL. Pommop/moppom insists that ALL Chinese educated in Chinese schools CAN READ AND WRITE in fluent Chinese characters. Hahaha. Good thing you confirmed that Chinese-Filipinos can talk fluently in Hokkien, but do poorly in written Chinese. He doesn't wanna listen.

Most Chinese schools attempt to revamp the curriculum but almost all graduate without being able to speak fluent and read/write in Mandarin and Chinese characters, because rote memory is still the norm in teaching Chinese. On the other hand, for clans/families who speak Hokkien in a daily basis like mine, most family members are fluent in conversation but certainly not in reading and writing.

That seriously doesn't even make any sense... I have never had a person see things more my way by busting their balls. If anything they get more defensive, and I wouldn't characterize us Fil-Chinese in general as heroes anyway its just that we run a lot of businesses so we contribute a lot towards productivity and job creation, but we don't get into that out of philanthropy like anyone else we're motivated by capitalism.

Regarding racial crimes that problem does exist to an extent but I don't see how you help the issue by going about the superiority of Chinese history if anything it just enforces the belief that we're different and that the Chinese think they're better than Filipinos, which leads to further racial hatred. You're stirring up a hornets nest.

Maybe, but if that's the only way there is to raise their awareness, then so be it.

Not just Chinese-Filipinos, but even Mainland China. The "heroism" of China despite giving and lending billions of dollars to the Philippines and extending help in calamities has been consistently downplayed in favor of America. This is wrong. Most of modern Philippines has been built from Chinese-Filipino capital and money. There should be at least some recognition of that.

Actually that sounds crazy but giving you the benefit of the doubt, could you please clarify exactly what you mean, are you saying that we should have our own Chinese government in the Philippines just for Chinese? Maybe I just misunderstood you.

Out of curiosity where do you live now?

Yep, that's it.

Like Singaporean Chinese, Philippine Chinese do NOT want to separate from their host country.

But look at Singapore, the Malaysian government did not do anything to protect the Chinese community from the rampant race riots then and in fact went on a word-war with Chinese ministers. The result is an independent Singapore that does much better than Malaysia.

If the Philippines government fails in its responsibility to protect the lives and assets of the Philippine Chinese, WE MIGHT AS WELL START our own country and government. I'm sure it'll do much better than the rest of the Philippines, JUST LIKE SINGAPORE, because it has the capital and the necessary education and workforce. Just like Singapore, a large chunk of upper middle classes will move to that Chinese state in the Philippines.

As of now, that's still a hypothetical situation, but as the number of Chinese victims in the Philippines rises, that situation is not too farfetched. Almost everyday there's always Chinese-Filipinos getting robbed, mugged, harassed, or dissed in an online forum or radio/TV commentaries.

Maybe in the new generation, we can find some champions of Chinese-Filipino rights and if the hate crimes are not solved by the Philippine government, we can even have champions of Chinese-Filipino sovereignty.

The culture differences of the current Chinese-Filipinos with the rest of the Filipinos as well as the rest of the Chinese are already wide enough. We constitute our own nationality/ethnicity, with about 60% of the "pure Chinese" in the Philippines having at least one Spanish or Filipino great grandfather and practice mixed Chinese/Filipino/Hispano-American culture and traditions.

This post has been edited by ocrapdm: Jan 14 2012, 02:27 AM