AsiaFinest Islamic Society Options

[Nefer]

Asalama Alaikum Samsparky...I don;t know if you are wilfully misunderstanding my point.

Yes I affirm the attributes and names of Allah but when we say hand that doesn't mean as in human hand rather it is part of the Qayb (the unseen) and Allah subahana'wa'taala doesn't resemble his creation acudubi'Allah and only Allah knows his own true form.

People like me are the only ones upon the correct path and Alhamduliah Ahlul sunnah wal Jamaah is spreading here in the UK

Akhii please do not spread these lies against the Dawah of the salaf us salih.

I repeat under no circumstances do we liken Allah to his creation rather we bear witness to his names and attributes like the Messenger of Allah sallahu alewasalam taught us.
We follow only the Quran and Sunnah upon the understanding of the Salaf which are the Prophet and his companions May Allah be pleased with them

For more info inshallah go on: http://www.qss.org/articles/salafi/text.html

And next time Sam please gain knowledge before you speak regarding that which you do not know as was the case with the salafi dawah.

[Nefer]

Also look at this inshallah and maybe then will your misconceptions be cleared inshallah

http://www.thewahhabimyth.com/

This post has been edited by Nefer: Mar 9 2009, 10:49 AM

[samsparky]

Are YOU wilfully misunderstanding?

Let me make it easy for you. Do you know what an Arabic dictionary is?

Look up the word "Yad" in that dictionary. NOT hand because "hand" was not attributed to Allaah in the Qur'aan, "yad" was.

And come back and tell us how many meanings you found and what they were.

[Nefer]

Are YOU wilfully misunderstanding?

Let me make it easy for you. Do you know what an Arabic dictionary is?

Look up the word "Yad" in that dictionary. NOT hand because "hand" was not attributed to Allaah in the Qur'aan, "yad" was.

And come back and tell us how many meanings you found and what they were.

.........................................

[Nefer]

Sam what Madhab do you follow if you follow any that is and have you read my post and the links I've provided?

Do you take your knowlegde from the Ulema such as Al-Albani Raheemahu'Allah, Ibn Baz Rahemahu'Allah Sheikh ul Islam Abdul Wahab Raheemahu'Allah, Shiekh Ubayd Al Jabiree Hafidahu'Allah etc?
These Ulema are upon the Sunnah

Who do you take you knowledge from or do you interpret the deen yourself?

I ask this in order to understand where you've gone wrong in your assumptions?
For judging by your posts it doesn't seem like you have much knowledge in issues of figh or deen.
No offence meant

[samsparky]

I follow the Shaafi^iyy math-hab. The links you posted are not new to me - wahhabis have posted links like those to me before to try to deny that they are known by that name.

Most of the people you listed are classed by the Muslim nation as : wahhabis, and I do not take my knowledge from wahhabis.

I do not take the knowledge by merely reading books, conducting an internet search or watching satellites. I take my knowledge in person and most of the people who read this thread will testify to the fact that I never make my own interpretations of Islam.

In conclusion, you have avoided my question about the dictionary.

Is that because your wahhabi leaders do not believe that there is any correct Arabic dictionary that was written by the scholars of Islam?

[Nefer]

Sam I see you are bent on insulting me by calling me Wahabi when we do not ascribe ourselves to this name.

I see you blind follow Imam Shaffii Rahemahu'Allah....

It funny that you think Ahlul Sunnah wal jamaa'h are misguided when all we do is follow the Sunnah and the Quran according to the salaf us salih.

Pray tell who do you take you 'knowledge' from in person...no doubt ukhtii you are misguided.

The Ulema I mentioned are upon the Haqq and knowing that you don't take from them has confirmed that you are upon misguidence and what a great evil this is.

All I can do is direct you to a an authentic source which is the Quran and Sunnah and the Pious Ulema upon the correct way.

I fear for you ukhtii...no innovation is good innovation.

For someone who says they take ilm in person you do not seem to possess a great deal...for if you did you would not based your sole point on the name 'Wahabi' when I have already refuted you and told you that we do not call ourselves that name.

Know ukhtii that when you slander an Ulema its like eating poison according to the Messenger of Allah sallahu alyewasalam


This post has been edited by Nefer: Mar 12 2009, 07:02 AM

[jrockerz]

hey guys, Assalamualaikum

Islam and Science: Notes on an Ongoing Debate
Ibrahim Kalin
College of the Holy Cross

http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/kalin/Isla...d%20Society.doc


This post has been edited by jrockerz: Mar 12 2009, 07:42 PM

[samsparky]

Nefer,

Ahlussunnah waljamaa^ah are not only 1 or 2 million in number.

Rather, Ahlussunnah waljamaa^ah were mentioned by the Prophet to be as-sawaad al-a^THam and alJamaa^ah.

Do not say that hundreds of millions of Muslims are kaafirs just because muhammad ibn abdilwahhaab, ahmad ibn taymiyah and those who follow them today believe that every innovation is a bad one.

Those people who follow these 2 are KNOWN AS wahhaabis and of course they do not call themselves that straight out, otherwise they would be known to the people as radicals, deviants and a group that believes that all those who claim to be Muslims are kaafirs except for them.

If I follow Imaam ash-shaafi^iyy blindly, I would be better off than following muhamad ibn abdil-wahhaab and his supporters blindly.

At least Imaam ash-shaafi^iyy is praised by most of the Muslim nation whereas ahmad ibn taymiyah and muhammad ibn abdilwahhaab are dispraised by most of the Muslim nation.

[Nefer]

Ukhtii trying to have a valid discussion with you is useless as you have yet to bring Daleel to support your views from the Quran and sunnah the links I gave you have sufficient proofs from the Quran and sunnah and yet you persist in in airing your pwn biased personal views.

I have yet to call a muslim a kafir pray tell where did you see me declaring takfeer on a muslim?
Do not get me confused with the Kawarijj!

As for you saying that you blind follow Imam Shafi'ii Rahemahu'Allah then alas you are upon misguidence ukhtii.

In Islam we do not blind follow and no I don't blind follow any Ulema but rather I do as they've said countless times 'Take from me that in which I am correct and leave that in which I am incorrect'

Remember Imam Shafi'ii Rahemahu'Allah was only Human and humans make mistakes!


People such as yourself insists on calling us names which we have not affirmed for ourselves but alhamduliah the Messenger of Allah sallahu alyewasalam said 'Islam shall return as something strange so give glad tidings to the strangers'
Our Dawah seems strange to people because we follow the Quran and Sunnah literally and upon the understanding of the Salaf, and we are harsh against innovation.

Ukhtii I am saddened that you are not open minded and that you are biased so much so that you have not even taken the time to read the link i gave you called 'introduction to the salafi dawah' and that you continue to discuss without any proof other than calling me a 'wahabi' when once again I have refuted you.

As Ahlul sunnah wal jamaaha then we follow all the Ulema upon the manhaj of the salaf us salih including Imam Shafi'ii, Imam Malik, Imam hanafi and Imam Hanbal Rahemahu'Allahu
And we do not blind follow as you have admitted you do.

I leave this pointless discussion sister and May Allah have mercy upon you and guide you ameen...for any questions do not hesitate to pm me.

[samsparky]

Let me tie up some loose ends.

I opened the link. Did you open the dictionary? Did you look up the word "yad"? Did you find out that to say "hand" is not the same thing as to say "yad"?

Surat Al-^Imran, Verse 7 means:

[Allaah is the One Who has sent down to the Prophet the Book that contains muHkam Verses, which are the foundation of the Book, and other Verses which are mutashaabih. Those who have perversity in their hearts, follow the mutashaabih Verses, seeking discord and searching for unbefitting meanings based on their delusions. No one knows their true meanings except Allaah and those who are firmly rooted in the knowledge of the Religion. The latter {i.e, those firmly rooted in the knowledge} say: "We believe in it, all of it is from our Lord" and none will understand the message, except the men of comprehension.]


And by the way I didn't say I blindly follow - but said that IF I blindly followed Imaam ash-Shaafi^iyy I would be better off than following ahmad ibn taymiyah who was jailed for his radical and new beliefs.

Yes, those who call themselves the salafis today are introducing new matters such as writing (T) after the name of Allaah and writing (S) after the name of the Prophet instead of writing the full words. This is a bad innovation but yet they claim that they are fighting all innovations.

If you want to fight innovations, then fight your own innovations - who other than your group said that tawhid is split up into 3 parts? who other than your group said that the blasphemers have one of the types of tawheed? NO ONE!!!

In fact, the claims of your group were refuted in the magazine of al-Azhar University.

This post has been edited by samsparky: Mar 20 2009, 08:39 PM

[samsparky]

Praise be to Allaah and may Allaah raise the rank of Prophet MuHammad, his Al and Companions.

Thereafter;

The scholars of the sunnah said what means:

“The dividing of tawheed of some people into 3 tawheeds is a bad and rejected innovation. It is not stated in the Qur’aan or in the Hadeeth nor did any person of the Salaf (in the first 300 years after Hijrah) say it or any reputable scholar. Rather, it is an innovation exclusive to a group which are the likeners of this time (they liken Allaah to the creations). This group, despite claiming to fight innovation, have introduced this innovation.

The proof that their division is incorrect is that the Prophet, Sallallaahu 3alayhi wa sallam said what means: ‘I was ordered to fight the people until they testify that no one is God except Allaah and that I am the Messenger of Allaah,’ The Prophet did not say ‘until they make 3 tawheeds’. That Hadeeth is mutawaatir. It was narrated about the Prophet Sallallaahu 3alayhi wa sallam by a group of Companions – among them the famous ten promised to Paradise. It was related by al-Bukhaariyy in his SaHeeH.

The intention of the likeners by this innovation is to declare as blasphemer the Muslim who practises tawheed if he asks Allaah by the Prophet or by a highly pious Muslim. They claim that this person is not practising tawheed uluhiyya. They also intend by their innovation to declare as blasphemers those who do ta’weel to the mutashaabih Verses of the Qur’aan for dismissing the apparent meaning which might give a meaning which does not befit Allaah. From the above mutawaatir Hadeeth, it is clear that their division of tawheed into 3 is invalid and that they are in reality the innovators even if they claim to fight innovation.

“They included in Islam a new innovation – not said by the Muslims. It is that tawheed uluhiyya (tawheed of Godhood) alone is not enough to have Iman but that rather one must have tawheed rububiyya (tawheed of Lordship). This is against the saying of the Prophet which means: ‘I was ordered to fight the people until they testify that no one is God except Allaah and that I am the Messenger of Allaah,’ because the Prophet regarded the testification of the person that there is only one God and that he is the Messenger of God as enough. If the blasphemer uttered with this, he would be considered by the Prophet, Sallallaahu 3alayhi wa sallam, as a Muslim and the Prophet would order him to Pray (make Salaah) before ordering him with other obligations. This is in accordance with the Hadeeth related by al-Bayhaqiyy in his book “al-i^tiqaad”. Those likeners made a new religion and it is the insufficiency of testifying to the 2 matters mentioned and that is from their ignorance.

“In reality, tawheed uluhiyya (tawheed of Godhood) is tawheed rububiyya (tawheed of Lordship). The proof for this is that regarding the Questioning in the grave there is a Hadeeth with the phrase of the Testification of faith and a Hadeeth with the phrase of: Allaah is my Lord. This is proof that testifying that no one is God except Allaah is testifying that Allaah is the Lord. What a huge calamity to the Muslims this group is.”


And in the book ‘misbaaH al-anaam’ chapter 2 for ^alawiyy bin AHmad al-Haddaad:

“Tawheed uluhiyya is included in tahweed rububiyya. The proof is that at the time when the oath was made on the offspring of Adam and Allaah said to them (His Speech is Eternal without letters sound or language and can not be imagined): ?? ?? (am I not your Lord) He did not say “your God”. It was enough to say that He is the Lord.

From among what is known is that whoever admits the Lordship to God has admitted the Godhood because the Lord is not other than God, rather the Lord is God. Also it is narrated in a Hadeeth that the 2 Angels ask the person in his grave saying “who is your Lord” and not saying “who is your God”. That is proof that tawheed of Lordship covers it.

And from what is strange is the saying of a liar to one who testifies that no one is God except Allaah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah and is a Muslim “you do not know tawheed – tawheed is 2 types: tawheed of Lordship which the blasphemers and those who associate partners with Allaah have, and tawHeed of Godhood which the Muslims have and that is what brings you into Islam but tawheed of Lordship doesn’t.”

“How strange – does the blasphemer have a correct tawheed? If his tawheed was true it would have gotten him out of Hellfire because no person who has tawheed will stay in Hellfire as explicitly stated in the Hadeeths. O Muslims, did you ever hear in the Hadeeths and narrations that the Prophet, Sallallaahu 3alayhi wa sallam, when Arabs came to him to become Muslims, said to them about tawheed of Godhood and tawheed of Lordship?...What are these lies and falsifications about Allaah and the Prophet. The one who does tawheed of the Lord has done tawheed of God and whoever associates partners with the Lord has associated partners with God. The Muslims do not have a God other than the Lord so if they say no one is God except Allaah, they believe that He is their Lord and they deny the Godhood of other than Him as they deny the Lordship of other than Him and they affirm His Oneness in His Self (Reality), Attributes and Actions.”


The saying of a group of innovators that, “The Prophets were not sent except for tawheed of Godhood and it is worshipping only God; but as for tawheed of Lorship which is believing that Allaah is the Lord of the Worlds - the One who manages the creations – none of those who associate partners with Allaah nor the Muslims deny this as Allaah said: (? ?? ? ? ) which means: {If you asked them who created the skies and earth they would say Allaah.}”

Their words are rejected and invalid in their claim of equality of Muslims and non-Muslims who associate partners with Allaah in having Tawheed of Lordship.

As for the saying of the non-Muslims who associate partners with Allaah that Allaah created the skies and earth, it is only by their tongues. It does not mean that they are doing tawHeed to the Lord of the worlds.

The Prophet, Sallallaahu 3alayhi wa sallam, did not used to say to anyone upon their entering into Islam that there are 2 tawheeds and in order to be a Muslim you must do tawheed of Godhood and it is not enough to do tawheed of Lordship only.

Another proof against them is the saying of Allaah about Yusuf peace be upon him to his companions in the jail when calling them to tawHeed:

( ? ? ?? ? )

Here Yusuf called them to tawHeed of the Lord, the One Who deserves to be worshipped, Who is God, the one who is clear of all the non-befitting attributes that the blasphemers attribute to Him.


And from the magazine called ‘noor al-Islaam’ by the shaykhs of al-Azhar ash-shareef, Rabee^ ath-thaanee, year 1352 H ‘Invalidation of dividing tawHeed into Godhood and Lordship’ by the ^al-laamah Yusuf ? ? who died in the year 1365 H:

“Their statement: ‘tawHeed is divided into tawHeed of Lordship and tawHeed of Godhood’ is a division unknown to anyone before ibn taymiya, and it is also impossible as you will know. The Prophet, Sallallaahu 3alayhi wa sallam, did not say to anyone who entered Islam: ‘There are 2 tawheeds and you would not be a Muslim unless you do tawheed of Godhood’, and he did not indicate that even with 1 word and this was not heard from any of the Salaf who they always claim to follow in everything nor the meaning of this division.

“…as for His saying:
( ? ?? ? ? )
Which means: {If you asked them who created the skies and earth they would say Allaah.}

“They say with their tongue what is not in their hearts desperate for that because of the evidence. The proof for this is that they also utter words which contradict this and attribute the creation of benefit and harm to other than God. Also they are ignorant of God. They said to Hud peace be upon him:

( ?? ? ? )

“So how does ibn taymiya say: ‘They believe that the idols do not benefit or harm…’?

“And look also at what they say about their plants and animals:
? ?? ?? ? ? )

“They held their gods higher than God in the smallest of matters. Allaah said in revealing their belief about their idols:

( ? ?? ? ?? ?? ? ? ?? )
“Here is it mentioned that they believed the idols are partners. From among that is what abu sufyaan said: ( ) a word of praise to something they worshipped other than God. The Prophet Sallallaahu 3alayhi wa sallam answered him by saying ‘God is greater.’

“Look at these and tell me what you see of the tawHeed that ibn taymiya attributes to them and says: ‘They are equal with the Muslims (in tawheed of Lordship) and they only differed in tawheed of Godhood’?” The words of the shaykhs of al-Azhar summarized.

[Protoculture]

then do yourself a favour and step out of the outlets of the group who call themselves jama^ah islaamiyyah or JI ...

Jamaah Islamiyyah is a terrorist organisation in Malaysia & SE Asia. Many members are detained, whose organisation responsible for spate of bombings in Indonesia. I hated terrorists, or hated to being associated with them irregardless of which ideologies or faiths they subscribed to.

Sam, we can always agree to disagree, right?

This post has been edited by Protoculture: Mar 30 2009, 03:41 AM

[Protoculture]

Dear Samsparky,

Despite your obvious anti-Wahabist tendencies, you can't simply disregard the fact that the Salaf-Wahabist movement (I'm differentiating them from moderate Salaf) in spreading da'wah in Western world. In fact, the 4 Sunni schools do not influenced the da'wah movement that much in West bloc, apart from catering to non-native Muslim migrants to the Western world.

Yes, I myself strongly disagrees with with the Wahhabists, but I do not blindly follow Shafie madhab just like that. The beauty of being a moderate Salaf is that we can still remain taqleed to our Sunni madhab, while at the same time rejecting unnecessary cultural baggages & additional bidaah. I mean, I can change my taqleed from Shafie madhab to Maliki madhab easily if I'm travelling to Pakistan, so that I can integrate with Pakistani Muslims there. Moderate salafs find themselves very flexible because we do not need to sacrifice our taqleed to our madhabs, but yet, flexible enough to integrate with other Sunni madhabs by simply switching taqleed to other madhabs.

Many learned Muslims in Asia are moderate Salafs. This scenario is on the rise.

Wassalam

[samsparky]

Do those who call themselves modern salafis say tawheed is divided into 3 or not? If they do then they do innovate. Please read my post about the reply of al-Azhar about what deviant sects say about tawheed.

[ayzn]

merhaba!

so glad to see this clan thriving!!

khuda hafiz

x

[Protoculture]

Do those who call themselves modern salafis say tawheed is divided into 3 or not? If they do then they do innovate. Please read my post about the reply of al-Azhar about what deviant sects say about tawheed.

Instead of unifying Muslims here, you're hell bent to disuniting us. Seriously, apart from Ahmadiyya & Nation of Islam which are obviously deviants, the Sunnis & Shiites are Muslims, only differing in various jurispudence.

Heck, I could easily say I'm better than you because I'm of Shafie madhab, the most orthodox Sunni & we Malays inherited the Madhab since birth & become better Muslims because we're better Muslims than those Muslims in Western countries, such as Australia. Hell, you Muslims Ozzies are secularists to the core since you upheld Ozzie secular laws, then you guys are no better than Kemalist seculars in Turkey! Sunnis worldwide, moderate or conservative, hated Kemalists!

I could easily say that, but we both know its not true. The above statement is as divisive as your current anti-Wahabbi drive. Instead becoming a glue to the ummah, you want to disunite us. You're doing more harm to Sunnis cause above anything else.

Sincere advice Sam, focused on similarities, not differences. The beauty of Sunnis, we adapted. As for Shiites, they revolutionised. As for Wahabbis, well, they're well sponsored.

Leave it be. If you're hell bent on discrediting Wahhabist, I suggest you take it further by lobbying all true blue Sunnis to boycott hajj or umra to Mecca, since Mecca is under Saudi Arabia, whose custodians are hardcore Wahhabists. Can you do that? Do you have the guts campaigning the world that Wahhabist now control the Saudi Kingdom & Custodian to two Holy Mosques as 'deviants'? Would you rise to the challenge to declare world-wide Sunni jihad against the Saudis since they're Wahhabists, & thus 'deviants' in your book?

Can you do that, or just spouting mere rhetorics?

[samsparky]

Let me tell you something. Unity amongst Muslims is not by leaving them ignorant to their differences. Do you want Muslims to be united by name only? True Unity amongst Muslims comes by protecting the mainstream of Muslims from deviants. Those who wrote the article in the magazine of the Azhar University of Egypt are obviously wiser than me and you about unity among Muslims. They mentioned and warned against the bad innovation of claiming that tawheed is divided into 3 -- Not to disunite the Muslims but to unite the ones on the correct path and protect them from the minority deviant groups.

[samsparky]

You don't seem to realise the danger of 'leaving it be' when it comes to wahhabis do you?

Do you know why wahhabis and those who claim to be salafis (but are also really following wahhabi teachings) claim that tawheed is divided into 3? One reason is to teach their students that the thousands of millions of Muslims who ask God by the rank of the Prophet are blasphemers (non-Muslims).

What is scary about that? you might ask.

The scary thing about it is that they will then use their students to wage war on every Muslim - male, female and child who does not follow them and many examples of this happened in history.

I pity you if one day they convince you to wear a suicide bombing suit and go to Chechnia to kill MUSLIMS because they declare them as blasphemers.

Today my war against the wahhabis is a war of words. I will and already am educating many Muslims about what 'leaving it be' will result in when it comes to wahhabis - as it did result in many times in the past.

True Muslims will never boycott Makkah but they will boycott believing in the misguidance contained in the colourful books that wahhabis distribute for free at Hajj time which contain statements declaring as blasphemers the Muslims who visit Prophet MuHammad's grave and ask ALLAAH by the rank of Prophet MuHammad.

[samsparky]

it might be said
UNITY AMONG MUSLIMS

We start with the name of Allah. We praise Allah and thank Allah for the blessing of Islam. We humbly ask Allah to raise the rank of Prophet Muhammad and his kind Al and Companions and to protect his nation from that which he fears for them. Thereafter:

Solidarity, cooperation, and standing together are important and basic elements for constructing a sound, united Islamic society. If the sincere Muslim were to take a brief look at the situation of Muslims throughout the world today, it would be enough to make him active in establishing unity among Muslims. A quick glance at the situation before and after the renewal of the call to Islam by Prophet Muhammad would shed bright light on the sound foundation for unity among Muslims.

Prophet ^Isa, Jesus, peace be upon him, came before Prophet Muhammad. The followers of Prophet ^Isa who adhered to the Religion of Islam but began to diminish in numbers after Prophet ^Isa was raised to the sky. Ignorance then began to spread among the people. Before Prophet Muhammad renewed the call to Islam, the people were living in an era of ignorance. It was a period of time when widespread ignorance prevailed. This period of time, before Prophet Muhammad renewed the call to Islam, was called the time of ignorance because ignorance prevailed among the people. The Arabs in the Arabian Peninsula at that time were scattered tribes, dispersered throughout the land, fighting and plundering each other. The intensity of their wars drove some of them to bury their daughters alive, hoping to escape scandal should their daughters be captured by the enemy.

The strong did injustice to the weak. Women were considered worthless just because they were female. Drinking alcohol was prevalent. Some had dozens of wives. People unrightfully worshipped stones and idols. Some even worshipped idols made from dates, and when they felt hungry, they ate them!! Many buried their daughters out of fear of proverty. Prostitution became widespread unjust tribal solidarity (^asabiyyah) prevailed. People blindly adhered to their tribal judgements, even when these were unjust (^asabiyyah). This was the situation that prevailed before the Prophet came with his Message. People were living in ignorance and darkness.