Indonesia and Philippines, potential positive stories in 2006 Options

[Kanlungan]

I think it's you who needs to relax. You need ice in your head coz when I read your posts, your shifting from being objective to unobjective(or inobjective, whichever is the appropriate term). You're spoiling the image of your Indonesian co-forumers.

[Bohemian]

Guys, guys, guys.. I don't know what to do...

If we keep on comparing, blaming, attacking each other, what do we get at the end of day? Nothing!

Enough the terrorism, corruption, fundamentalism, accusations, etc, etc.

Why don't we start thinking what the two countries and peoples can do for the well-being of each other?

Maybe we can describe here what we can do. OK?

[halohalo]

man, u guys missed the point of this topic. It's not a competition between the 2 countries, or whose doing better. It's the potential that these countries can achieve if they keep going on the right positive track. So yeah, now that we got that cleared up, let's juz stop all this animosity and talk bout the good positive stuff we can achieve!

[Bohemian]

Let me start:

1. Why is PAL the only airlines flying from the Philippines to Indonesia and back? Why can't there be anyone else? Not that I don't like PAL or what, but it's just very difficult to fly between the 2 countries.. I don't understand why Garuda Indonesia hasn't resumed the Manila flight.

2. How many Filipinos live in Indonesia? Any idea?

Thanks!!

[Mulawin]

True, Rupiah is an indivisble denomination, because your inflation is so huge your gov't has to take away its denomination, that means 9,800 Rupiah= 1 US dollar..you divide that by 100 and you get [98] ..Philippine Peso has a 100 centavo denomination so it stays that way which is 52 Pesos...98 Rupiah to 52 Peso is still very far and wide...you do the math...our value is stronger..

Its good that your currency is the best performing in Asia, we only come second on that. Your Rupiah is so low it cant go anywhere but up...

But anyways, sarcasm aside..wealth is more distributed throughout your country than the Philippines..Which means, that while the Filipino Rich are richer that the Indonesian Rich, the good news to you (bad news for us) is that The Filipino Poor are poorer than the Indonesian Poor, which is not a bad thing in your part...

MALLS

The measure of how large a mall is is based on square meters (Land area).. SM mall of Asia has 454,000 square meters (purely mall ) w/ a land area of 19.5 hectares...yeah, its not the biggest Mall yet since the real opening will be on May 2006 which will be bigger than 454,000 square meters, it may not be the Third largest now, but its definitely one of the biggest malls (since there was this other mall in beijing which is bigger but warehouse supermarket is more of what i can describe about that beijing mall)..So tell me, Those Malls in Singapore, Thailand, and Malaysia (wheres Indonesia?) that you mentioned claiming to be the largest..can you show me theyre land area in hecatres and square meters..if you can produce the only square meter which is covered purely by the mall (without the outside land area)..it would be good..

LOL, don't believe every sensationalistic marketing gimmick you hear.

Just browsing in google, I can find four malls in Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, and Phillipines all claiming to be the largest mall in Southeast Asia. Obviously, such sensationalistic sobriquets are meaningless.
Actually rupiah is an indivisible currency, there is no cents in our currency. The smallest denomination is Rp 100.

About the strength of rupiah, it is clear our currency is much stronger than the Filipino peso:

Rupiah is Asia's best performing currency of this year

[Najjiah]

indonesia has killer tourism status, too. bali is like THE most sought after destinations in the world. the indonesian goverment rakes in so much money from all the tourists that go there.

someday, i hope boracay gets the same cult status bali gets. philippines deserves a fresh influx of money spending tourists, thats fo sho.

[Mulawin]

yes, but sad to say when people think of bali, they dont think Indonesia..its as if Bali itself was a country..ive asked this to some white folks here in cebu who have been there..they never thought it was part of Indonesia until they actually went there...

indonesia has killer tourism status, too. bali is like THE most sought after destinations in the world. the indonesian goverment rakes in so much money from all the tourists that go there.

someday, i hope boracay gets the same cult status bali gets. philippines deserves a fresh influx of money spending tourists, thats fo sho.

[Bohemian]

yes, but sad to say when people think of bali, they dont think Indonesia..its as if Bali itself was a country..ive asked this to some white folks here in cebu who have been there..they never thought it was part of Indonesia until they actually went there...

So, what's the POINT of all these chats, actually?

[purnomor]

I think it's you who needs to relax. You need ice in your head coz when I read your posts, your shifting from being objective to unobjective(or inobjective, whichever is the appropriate term).

No worries, I am always relaxed. This is just an online forum, anyways. BTW, I think I am pretty objective in presenting the facts

True, Rupiah is an indivisble denomination, because your inflation is so huge your gov't has to take away its denomination, that means 9,800 Rupiah= 1 US dollar..you divide that by 100 and you get [98] ..Philippine Peso has a 100 centavo denomination so it stays that way which is 52 Pesos...98 Rupiah to 52 Peso is still very far and wide...you do the math...our value is stronger..

Its good that your currency is the best performing in Asia, we only come second on that. Your Rupiah is so low it cant go anywhere but up...

Again, nominal value of a currency has nothing to do with a currency's strength, regardless of whether it is "divisible" or "indivisible". The strength of a currency reflects its appreciation in a timeframe over the US dollar. So, rupiah is the strongest currency in Asia.

Actually Indonesian inflation rate is historically lower than Philippines. Rupiah was nominally at around Rp 9800 per dollar because it was deliberately devalued (not depreciated) by the Suharto govt throughout its 32-years-rule in order to support our exports, plus the effects of the 1997 crisis.

Abt the size of malls, again nobody really cares about that since giant malls exists everywhere these days, not to mention there are heaps of malls claiming to be "the biggest malls" so such claims definately should be taken with lots of salt. Otherwise, Philippines is not a major shopping destination in Southeast Asia. If you say that dubious size of malls is the main pride of the Philippines, well that's kinda bemusing.

Which means, that while the Filipino Rich are richer that the Indonesian Rich

The richest Indonesian, R Budi Hartono (US$ 2.4 billion), is half a billion richer than the richest Filipino Lucio Tan (US$ 1.9 billion). Indonesia's number two and three richest man is also still richer than Lucio Tan. Additionally, there are more Indonesians than Filipinos is Southeast Asia's 40 richest persons.

http://www.forbes.com/2005/09/07/southeast..._05sealand.html

This post has been edited by purnomor: Mar 7 2006, 06:19 PM

[Ek-ek]

Nagsimula nanaman ang mga awayan dito!

[Mulawin]

The nominal value of a currency againt the US dollar has everything to do with the currency's strength....The US dollar is the world's default currency, there is every reason why international markets of the world has an exchange rate with their domestic currency to the US dollars..the more dollars you have in your domestic local economy the higher the purchaisng power of the local consumers...besides, it doesnt make sense to intentionally devalue your own currency in favor of your export economy, one thing it may be beneficial to the export industry in a short-term, but it does not favor the rest of the industries of your local economies in the long-term...

"World trade is now a game in which the US produces dollars and the rest of the world produces things that dollars can buy. The world's interlinked economies no longer trade to capture a comparative advantage; they compete in exports to capture needed dollars to service dollar-denominated foreign debts and to accumulate dollar reserves to sustain the exchange value of their domestic currencies. To prevent speculative and manipulative attacks on their currencies, the world's central banks must acquire and hold dollar reserves in corresponding amounts to their currencies in circulation. The higher the market pressure to devalue a particular currency, the more dollar reserves its central bank must hold. This creates a built-in support for a strong dollar that in turn forces the world's central banks to acquire and hold more dollar reserves, making it stronger. This phenomenon is known as dollar hegemony, which is created by the geopolitically constructed peculiarity that critical commodities, most notably oil, are denominated in dollars. Everyone accepts dollars because dollars can buy oil. The recycling of petro-dollars is the price the US has extracted from oil-producing countries for US tolerance of the oil-exporting cartel since 1973."

Secondly, you havent yet given me the area of malls considred to be the biggest in asia. Thirdly, Lucio Tan is worth 1.8 billion dollars is absurd, im sure its bigger..apparently, you didnt know how chinese tycoons reduce their wealth to a mere 1.8 billion dollars to escape heavy taxation burdens..Lucio Tan have had many Tax evation cases many times, unfortunately a dumb actor/ex-president pardoned him, but hes got another tax eveation case now..So, if this net worth you showed (Forbes top 40) were the real net worth of the Filipinos, we would probably have more in that list..but anyways, all is the same..Indonesian in the Forbes top 40 wealthiest for this year (2005) has 8, Philippines has 7 ......7 if those net worth were facts..and not simply to hide and escape tax burdens...

Again, nominal value of a currency has nothing to do with a currency's strength, regardless of whether it is "divisible" or "indivisible". The strength of a currency reflects its appreciation in a timeframe over the US dollar. So, rupiah is the strongest currency in Asia.

Actually Indonesian inflation rate is historically lower than Philippines. Rupiah was nominally at around Rp 9800 per dollar because it was deliberately devalued (not depreciated) by the Suharto govt throughout its 32-years-rule in order to support our exports, plus the effects of the 1997 crisis.

Abt the size of malls, again nobody really cares about that since giant malls exists everywhere these days, not to mention there are heaps of malls claiming to be "the biggest malls" so such claims definately should be taken with lots of salt. Otherwise, Philippines is not a major shopping destination in Southeast Asia. If you say that dubious size of malls is the main pride of the Philippines, well that's kinda bemusing.
The richest Indonesian, R Budi Hartono (US$ 2.4 billion), is half a billion richer than the richest Filipino Lucio Tan (US$ 1.9 billion). Indonesia's number two and three richest man is also still richer than Lucio Tan. Additionally, there are more Indonesians than Filipinos is Southeast Asia's 40 richest persons.

http://www.forbes.com/2005/09/07/southeast..._05sealand.html

[purnomor]

The nominal value of a currency againt the US dollar has everything to do with the currency's strength....

This is unfortunately not true. Curreny strength got everything to do with its appreciation against the US dollar overtime. Currency strength got nothing to do with nominal value. Japanese yen is nominally smaller than peso, but it is a much stronger currency.

The US dollar is the world's default currency, there is every reason why international markets of the world has an exchange rate with their domestic currency to the US dollars..the more dollars you have in your domestic local economy the higher the purchaisng power of the local consumers...besides, it doesnt make sense to intentionally devalue your own currency in favor of your export economy, one thing it may be beneficial to the export industry in a short-term, but it does not favor the rest of the industries of your local economies in the long-term...

"World trade is now a game in which the US produces dollars and the rest of the world produces things that dollars can buy. The world's interlinked economies no longer trade to capture a comparative advantage; they compete in exports to capture needed dollars to service dollar-denominated foreign debts and to accumulate dollar reserves to sustain the exchange value of their domestic currencies. To prevent speculative and manipulative attacks on their currencies, the world's central banks must acquire and hold dollar reserves in corresponding amounts to their currencies in circulation. The higher the market pressure to devalue a particular currency, the more dollar reserves its central bank must hold. This creates a built-in support for a strong dollar that in turn forces the world's central banks to acquire and hold more dollar reserves, making it stronger. This phenomenon is known as dollar hegemony, which is created by the geopolitically constructed peculiarity that critical commodities, most notably oil, are denominated in dollars. Everyone accepts dollars because dollars can buy oil. The recycling of petro-dollars is the price the US has extracted from oil-producing countries for US tolerance of the oil-exporting cartel since 1973."

Indonesia's foreign exchange reserve (mostly US dollar) = US$ 34 billion

Philippines foreign exchange reserve = US$ 18 billion

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/rp.html

Indonesia's dollar reserve is nearly twice the size of Philippines's. Hence, our currency is less prone to currency speculation compared with Filipino peso since our large forex reserve meant the Bank Indonesia is more able to intervene in case of speculative attack in a more effective manner compared with Filipino Central Bank.

Secondly, you havent yet given me the area of malls considred to be the biggest in asia.

I found this list of largest shopping malls in the world:
http://www.easternct.edu/depts/amerst/Malls.htm

No Filipino mall amongst the 14 largest malls in the world, so I totally doubt the veracity of the figures you gave. Again, don't be so insecure about this "size of malls" thingy since it turned out there are so many bigger malls around Asia and the world. Size of malls is truly one of the most meaningless measure of things.

Thirdly, Lucio Tan is worth 1.8 billion dollars is absurd, im sure its bigger..apparently, you didnt know how chinese tycoons reduce their wealth to a mere 1.8 billion dollars to escape heavy taxation burdens..Lucio Tan have had many Tax evation cases many times, unfortunately a dumb actor/ex-president pardoned him, but hes got another tax eveation case now..So, if this net worth you showed (Forbes top 40) were the real net worth of the Filipinos, we would probably have more in that list..but anyways, all is the same..Indonesian in the Forbes top 40 wealthiest for this year (2005) has 8, Philippines has 7 ......7 if those net worth were facts..and not simply to hide and escape tax burdens...

Yeah, unfortunately many Indonesian conglomerates also hid most of their money abroad (mostly in Singapore) to avoid taxation. So, it is undeniable that the richest Indonesian conglomerates are considerably richer than this Lucio Tan. I think the richest Indonesia is still Suharto, who is estimated to have earned US$ 15-35 billion in illegal income during his 32-year reign.

This post has been edited by purnomor: Mar 8 2006, 07:15 AM

[Mulawin]

This is unfortunately not true. Curreny strength got everything to do with its appreciation against the US dollar overtime. Currency strength got nothing to do with nominal value. Japanese yen is nominally smaller than peso, but it is a much stronger currency.
Indonesia's foreign exchange reserve (mostly US dollar) = US$ 34 billion

That is cow dung, currency strength got everything to do with the depreciaton againts the US dollar overtime not the other way around..check out all the first world countries and compare that to the third world country current exchaneg againts the US dollar..there is no doubt that the lower your exchange rate againts the dollar the hihger your purchasing power..Ive already explained this to you, the YEN is an indivisible denomination...any guy who took up economics can fully comprehend what I meant about this, my previous opinion apply...

Philippines foreign exchange reserve = US$ 18 billion

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/rp.html

Indonesia's dollar reserve is nearly twice the size of Philippines's. Hence, our currency is less prone to currency speculation compared with Filipino peso since our large forex reserve meant the Bank Indonesia is more able to intervene in case of speculative attack in a more effective manner compared with Filipino Central Bank

.


Indonesia's dollar reserved is twice the size of the Philippines alright, but this still goes back to your understanding of "Economics"..your population (indonesia) is the fourth largest in the world plus your land area is 5-6 times bigger than the PHilippines but your foreign reserve is ONLY TWICE the size of the Philippines????---> (clusters of islands peopled by 89 million people) I think you have a lot to worry about on that.. oh yeah, and before the Marcos Era, our gold reserve is almost the same as the gold reserves of Japan..

No Filipino mall amongst the 14 largest malls in the world, so I totally doubt the veracity of the figures you gave.

Ive browsed on that yesterday before youve even browsed on that just now, but where is thailand, malaysia and singapore that you claimed?? like i said SM mall of Asia will have its grand opening in may 2006

Yeah, unfortunately many Indonesian conglomerates also hid most of their money abroad (mostly in Singapore) to avoid taxation. So, it is undeniable that the richest Indonesian conglomerates are considerably richer than this Lucio Tan. I think the richest Indonesia is still Suharto, who is estimated to have earned US$ 15-35 billion in illegal income during his 32-year reign.

Many Filipino conglomerates also hid their money abroad, not in singapore but in switzerland, pitcairn or cayman islands and all other notorious banks where hitler and stalin hid their money too.. but you know we have anti-money laundering law so its hard for them to launder money anymore..all they can do now is hid thier wealth and reduce their net wealth 10 times less than thier actual net worth to avoid paying the taxes they suppose to pay...Suharto is the richest? Please browse 1987 Guiness Book of World Records and look for the World's Greatest Thief..You will find Ferdinand MArcos there 15-35 billion? thats nothing compared to what the MArcoses stole from our country...

This post has been edited by Mulawin: Mar 8 2006, 07:36 AM

[purnomor]

That is cow dung, currency strength got everything to do with the depreciaton againts the US dollar overtime not the other way around..check out all the first world countries and compare that to the third world country current exchaneg againts the US dollar..there is no doubt that the lower your exchange rate againts the dollar the hihger your purchasing power..Ive already explained this to you, the YEN is an indivisible denomination...any guy who took up economics can fully comprehend what I meant about this, my previous opinion apply...

LOLZ, unfortunately this is cow dung, currency strength got nothing to do with nominal value or "indivisible" currency. Anyone who took up economics can fully comprehend what I meant about this, my previous opinion apply. Rupiah is the strongest currency in Asia due to its appreciation over US dollar during 2005.

Indonesia's dollar reserved is twice the size of the Philippines alright, but this still goes back to your understanding of "Economics"..your population (indonesia) is the fourth largest in the world plus your land area is 5-6 times bigger than the PHilippines but your foreign reserve is ONLY TWICE the size of the Philippines????---> (clusters of islands peopled by 89 million people) I think you have a lot to worry about on that.. oh yeah, and before the Marcos Era, our gold reserve is almost the same as the gold reserves of Japan..

Indonesia do need to increase its forex reserve, but our reserve is sufficient to back-up the rupiah. Not to mention, our debt-to-GDP ratio (52%) is smaller than Philippines's 77.4 % and it is going down fast, so your forex is in a more precarious state as you'll need to use them up to serve your debts.

Ive browsed on that yesterday before youve even browsed on that just now, but where is thailand, malaysia and singapore that you claimed?? like i said SM mall of Asia will have its grand opening in may 2006

Calm down, mate. As I said, no need to get all insecure over size of malls. It is clear Asia's largest malls are in China.

Many Filipino conglomerates also hid their money abroad, not in singapore but in switzerland, pitcairn or cayman islands and all other notorious banks where hitler and stalin hid their money too.. but you know we have anti-money laundering law so its hard for them to launder money anymore..all they can do now is hid thier wealth and reduce their net wealth 10 times less than thier actual net worth to avoid paying the taxes they suppose to pay...Suharto is the richest? Please browse 1987 Guiness Book of World Records and look for the World's Greatest Thief..You will find Ferdinand MArcos there 15-35 billion? thats nothing compared to what the MArcoses stole from our country...

LOLZ Why are you so proud abt Marcos's corruption? Unfortunately, Suharto gained much more dough than your Marcos. Look at the most recent data: http://au.news.yahoo.com/040325/19/oa9p.html

Luckily, his family is still spending most of this ill-gotten income in domestic Indonesian investments, unlike Marcos or those African dictators who send all their loot to Swiss banks. Suharto's daughter Tutut isthe operator of Manila's tollways.

[Mulawin]

oh me? im calm as a feather in the forres gump movie..Take note im not proud about Marcos, i was merely stating as to what extent did he stole our money....10 billion dollars he stole right? that was like 30 years ago, so you can just imagine how much is it now, (10 billion dollars in a bank for 30 years...imagine..) hidden in some really shady banks, surely now it is more that 15-35 billion dollars now than what your suharto has stolen and our government is slowly claiming those money.. but anyways i sick of this, my only point here is that Philippine is wealthier than Indonesia..ill post that later, right now im logging off..

LOLZ Why are you so proud abt Marcos's corruption? Unfortunately, Suharto gained much more dough than your Marcos. Look at the most recent data: http://au.news.yahoo.com/040325/19/oa9p.html

Luckily, his family is still spending most of this ill-gotten income in domestic Indonesian investments, unlike Marcos or those African dictators who send all their loot to Swiss banks. Suharto's daughter Tutut isthe operator of Manila's tollways.

[purnomor]

oh me? im calm as a feather in the forres gump movie..Take note im not proud about Marcos, i was merely stating as to what extent did he stole our money....10 billion dollars he stole right? that was like 30 years ago, so you can just imagine how much is it now, (10 billion dollars in a bank for 30 years...imagine..) hidden in some really shady banks, surely now it is more that 15-35 billion dollars now than what your suharto has stolen and our government is slowly claiming those money.. but anyways i sick of this, my only point here is that Philippine is wealthier than Indonesia..ill post that later, right now im logging off..

Yeah, Marcos sure milked your country dry, this kind of corruption surely caused much poverty in Philippines. Too bad he died soon after getting overthrown, he never faced any trial.

This post has been edited by purnomor: Mar 8 2006, 10:01 AM

[Kokol]

REGARDLESS...if the Rupiah is stronger than the peso...so what

but...the point is that the Philippines is much richer than Indonesia


JUST CHECK THE GDP...COMPARE THE COUNTRIES

PHILIPPINES IS MUCH RICHER THAN INDONESIA


That should be the end of the discussion just check the d@mn GDP comparison!

And Philippines does have the 3rd largest mall....you did not believe our scources ...why should we believe yours

....and dont say that the GDP does not count because apparently IT DOES...

[purnomor]

REGARDLESS...if the Rupiah is stronger than the peso...so what

but...the point is that the Philippines is much richer than Indonesia
JUST CHECK THE GDP...COMPARE THE COUNTRIES

PHILIPPINES IS MUCH RICHER THAN INDONESIA
That should be the end of the discussion just check the d@mn GDP comparison!

And Philippines does have the 3rd largest mall....you did not believe our scources ...why should we believe yours

....and dont say that the GDP does not count because apparently IT DOES...

err.. again Indonesia's GDP is twice the size of Philippines' GDP, hence we are richer than Philippines. But, of course, Philippines GDP is larger than Bangladesh

This post has been edited by purnomor: Mar 8 2006, 10:58 AM

[Sirikittong]

Yea but your population is more than double theirs; proportion wise, the Philippines is richer than Indonesia.

Compare a nation of 86 million with a Gdp half of a nation of over 230 million.
If Indonesia's GDP was triple that of the Philippines, then that would say something different.

According to the CIA WORLD FACT BOOK:

Indonesia:
Population:
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
241,973,879 (July 2005 est.)
GDP (purchasing power parity):
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
$899 billion (2005 est.)
GDP (official exchange rate):
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
$245.3 billion (2005 est.)
GDP - real growth rate:
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
5.3% (2005 est.)
GDP - per capita:
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
purchasing power parity - $3,700 (2005 est.)

Philippines:
Population:
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
87,857,473 (July 2005 est.)
GDP (purchasing power parity):
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
$451.3 billion (2005 est.)
GDP (official exchange rate):
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
$90.3 billion (2005 est.)
GDP - real growth rate:
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
4.7% (2005 est.)
GDP - per capita:
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
purchasing power parity - $5,100 (2005 est.)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The Philippines has a HIGHER gdp per capita than Indonesia; almost 2 thousand dollars more than Indonesia's.

C'mon, seriously we're all ASEAN states. Wheres the brotherly love?

This post has been edited by Sirikittong: Mar 8 2006, 11:40 AM

[purnomor]

Yea but your population is more than double theirs; proportion wise, the Philippines is richer than Indonesia.

Compare a nation of 86 million with a Gdp half of a nation of over 230 million.
If Indonesia's GDP was triple that of the Philippines, then that would say something different.

According to the CIA WORLD FACT BOOK:

Indonesia:
Population:
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
241,973,879 (July 2005 est.)
GDP (purchasing power parity):
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
$899 billion (2005 est.)
GDP (official exchange rate):
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
$245.3 billion (2005 est.)
GDP - real growth rate:
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
5.3% (2005 est.)
GDP - per capita:
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
purchasing power parity - $3,700 (2005 est.)

Philippines:
Population:
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
87,857,473 (July 2005 est.)
GDP (purchasing power parity):
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
$451.3 billion (2005 est.)
GDP (official exchange rate):
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
$90.3 billion (2005 est.)
GDP - real growth rate:
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
4.7% (2005 est.)
GDP - per capita:
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
purchasing power parity - $5,100 (2005 est.)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The Philippines has a HIGHER gdp per capita than Indonesia; almost 2 thousand dollars more than Indonesia's.

C'mon, seriously we're all ASEAN states. Wheres the brotherly love?

That's bcoz Indonesia's population is nearly three times the population of RP, so our larger GDP has got to be divided for much more people, hence our slightly lower GDP per capita. Anyways, good that the Philippines will built that giant shopping mall, I just luv hanging out in these malls. Economically, Indonesia is just a bit slightly better than Philippines.

I think all ASEAN countries have very high nationalistic sentiments, so ASEAN brotherly love is still weak.