Ancient Artifacts, Ancient Paintings & More Options

[XigonCongchua]

According to the title of that painting,its not an ambassador,its the king himself.And the Qing emperor in the painting is Qianlong.So are you sure Lê was the only king during the Qianlong period ?Im sorry i dont know that much about vietnam history,I was simply quoting from the internet.

If that painting was indeed in the 1750s then I'm certain about what I said. The Lê dynasty lasted until 1788.

There were Trịnh lords (from the Trịnh clan) and Nguyễn lords (from the Nguyễn clan) fighting each other, but officially they both were "subjects" to Lê king. Ancestors of the Nguyễn clan was actually a loyal subject to Lê kings who assisted the Lê when the Mạc took the throne. So both Nguyễn lords and Trịnh lords descended from people who wanted to assist the Lê.

The Chinese emperor recognized the Lê as kings of Vietnam, so it wouldn't make sense if any Chinese emperor accepted ambassadors from Nguyễn lords and refer to them as "King of Annam". If that was Qianlong, then the same Chinese emperor also sent a large army down with the reason "to help the Lê clan protect their throne" when Nguyễn Huệ was about to overthrow the Lê-Trịnh regime. So it didn't make sense to me that Chinese emperor would accept ambassadors from Nguyễn lords as if they were sent by Vietnamese "king".

[LonelyKitty]

This is Quan Huyện Phủ:
You see the 2 guarding front of the gate is our Police:



they equipped with a long blade as you can see... its called "Trảm Mã Đao", it also can be use in execution:

Minh Mang executor execute a Foreigner Missonary with Trảm Mã Đao:





Tri Phủ:



Bậc Nho Sĩ:



Quý Tộc Phong Kiến:

This post has been edited by LonelyKitty: Mar 21 2011, 03:03 AM

[LonelyKitty]

Its possible.This painting is called 《安南國王至避暑山莊》 from 《十全敷藻圖冊》.Its about the king of vietnam went to beijing and asked the Qing emperor's permission to change viet clothing to Qing clothing.The emperor was very happy ,he even wrote a peom about it:《安南國王阮光平乞遵天朝衣冠》.

Bull$hit This is Le Chieu Thong he used to be our king, but he is now a betrayer.

[thumbsUp]

That's one of the "earlier" kings of the Nguyễn dynasty right?

That shows the Nguyễn didn't really change their clothes to "Qing clothes" because if they did, you wouldn't see that picture.

Look at the picture of King Ming Mạng, he still wore "Hanfu-like" clothes. And this was in the 1830s


Under Thiệu Trị's reign (1841-1847)


The last pictures you show were late Nguyễn dynasty, when "áo dài" had already been revolutionized into its modern form.

It's too coincidental to have the collar like that.

The picture of Minh Mang is similar to Qing dynasty clothing. Just because the clothing is loose doesn't mean
it's Hanfu. It's the collar area I'm focusing on.

The second picture is different I know. I seen that before but that clothing was reserved for Nho Si people only
everyone else had to change to the Qing influenced clothing which was altered to Vietnamese tastes.

[LonelyKitty]

I mean the headdress in this pic, look much much different from chinese headdress, even Soldier had their own Headress and shoes, i would say this and Tay Son Dynasty is much better than Nguyen Dynasty, take a look at the costume too:



This post has been edited by LonelyKitty: Mar 21 2011, 03:11 AM

[XigonCongchua]

The mandarin dresses of early Nguyễn dynasty don't look like Qing dress to me. They look more "Hanfu".

So Lord Nguyễn Phúc Khoát ordered for women to wear pants instead of skirt and to sew/close their upper garment together (so inner shirt won't be reviewed), but I don't think he really adopted Qing-style clothes.

I guess there were two variations of dresses by the early Nguyen dynasty.

This type was more for mandarin class

<-- notice the see-through two layers

This was more for commoner and scholars

<-- similar see-through two-layers


Nowadays those see-through two layered dresses are called "áo the"




This post has been edited by XigonCongchua: Mar 21 2011, 03:20 AM

[XigonCongchua]

It's too coincidental to have the collar like that.

The picture of Minh Mang is similar to Qing dynasty clothing. Just because the clothing is loose doesn't mean
it's Hanfu. It's the collar area I'm focusing on.

The second picture is different I know. I seen that before but that clothing was reserved for Nho Si people only
everyone else had to change to the Qing influenced clothing which was altered to Vietnamese tastes.

Of course the collar was an influence from the Manchu. But other aspects were derived from earlier clothes.

And do you know what clothes for Manchu kings looked like?



Notice the sleeves (as well as the collar maybe)

These Nguyen clothes are obviously closer to Hanfu



Compare those clothes to the one in Nguyễn Trãi portrait (from early Lê dynasty - 1400s)

[thumbsUp]

Of course the collar was an influence from the Manchu. But other aspects were derived from earlier clothes.

And do you know what clothes for Manchu kings looked like?



Notice the sleeves (as well as the collar maybe)

These Nguyen clothes are obviously closer to Hanfu



Compare those clothes to the one in Nguyễn Trãi portrait (from early Lê dynasty - 1400s)

Again the key here is the Collar.

The sleeves and everything can be loose or tight. But the collar change is significant in the difference.

Look at how these guys:

They have collars instead of like Hanfu or old Vietnamese clothing wehre there was no collar.

Pretty much it reveals they're wearing a ao dai style shirt with an overcoat on top which has a circle cut to reveal the
collar:


Now look at Ly dynasty clothing.


Similar but very different because this one shows that there is no collar but the outercoat makes the undershirt seems like there's a collar.
This one reveals that the clothing underneath is something like a hanfu:

[XigonCongchua]

Again the key here is the Collar.

The sleeves and everything can be loose or tight. But the collar change is significant in the difference.

Look at how these guys:

They have collars instead of like Hanfu or old Vietnamese clothing wehre there was no collar.

Pretty much it reveals they're wearing a ao dai style shirt with an overcoat on top which has a circle cut to reveal the
collar:


Now look at Ly dynasty clothing.

Of course they look similar to ao dai because aodai was derived from them (with a tint of Manchu influence)! Aodai didn't come from Qing clothes. They were derived from earlier Vietnamese clothes, which bear similarities to Hanfu.

Also you seem to forget that ancient clothes changed through time

^ Top row, 3rd from the left. That's basically áo dài with skirt.

And 2nd row, 3rd from the left. That's similar to áo mệnh phụ (royal áo dài) with skirt




Also what makes you think the key to aodai is the "collar"? Didn't you see that aodai's collar changed dramatically through time? Without the collar, it's still aodai. The key to aodai is the slit at waist-length. Without this slit, it's no longer aodai.

As I said, the collar was of course an influence from the Manchu.

Here are some "early aodai" they don't have the Manchu collar





Also let me clarify this, there are many types of "collar"
This type was an influence from Manchu


But this low collar is not necessarily from the Manchu


You see the same type of collar in many minorities of Vietnam

Ethnic Tày


Ethnic Thái


Their clothes weren't influenced by Manchu and they still have that type of collar.

This post has been edited by XigonCongchua: Mar 21 2011, 04:03 AM

[thumbsUp]

Of course they look similar to ao dai! But aodai didn't come from Qing clothes. They were derived from earlier Vietnamese clothes, which bear similarities to Hanfu.

Also you seem to forget that ancient clothes changed through time

^ Top row, 3rd from the left. That's basically áo dài with skirt.

Also what makes you think the key to aodai is the "collar"? Didn't you see that aodai's collar changed dramatically through time? Without the collar, it's still aodai. The key to aodai is the slit at waist-length. Without this slit, it's no longer aodai.

As I said, the collar was of course an influence from the Manchu.

I guess that means we both agreed there was some influence from Manchu.

I'm not looking for the key to Ao Dai but the key to which clothing influenced the Ao Dai.
Manchu clothing, especially the chest up and collar is like Ao Dai, Han Fu is more like ancient Ao Tu Than.
What I was trying to say was, Ao Dai's collar was influenced by Manchu clothing because before then
our clothing was collarless like the Hanfu.

Nguyen dynasty clothing like the ones you posted above show a transition in the change from collarless to collar.
So scholars still wore hanfu styled clothing but the King and Queen and commoners etc had switched to a more
Manchu influenced (even though there was still Vietnamese characteristics like the slits).

[XigonCongchua]

Pardon me but I would highly disagree if you call these Qing clothes just because of something that look remotely like the Manchu collars to you.


Not any sign of collar originate from the Manchu and furthermore, the "collars" you see in that picture are more like from inner shirt




Not like the Manchu collar which is from outer shirt





This post has been edited by XigonCongchua: Mar 21 2011, 04:30 AM

[DOUBLEMINT]

I guess that means we both agreed there was some influence from Manchu.

I\'m not looking for the key to Ao Dai but the key to which clothing influenced the Ao Dai.
Manchu clothing, especially the chest up and collar is like Ao Dai, Han Fu is more like ancient Ao Tu Than.
What I was trying to say was, Ao Dai\'s collar was influenced by Manchu clothing because before then
our clothing was collarless like the Hanfu.

Nguyen dynasty clothing like the ones you posted above show a transition in the change from collarless to collar.
So scholars still wore hanfu styled clothing but the King and Queen and commoners etc had switched to a more
Manchu influenced (even though there was still Vietnamese characteristics like the slits).

I think both of you are wrong.The so called \"Mandarin collar\" is actually \"Hanfu\" influence.It started around Late Ming Dynasty among women .Manchurian clothing didnt have this type of collar till the late Qing,much later than Ao Dai.Also Ao Dai collar is much closer to the Ming style collar.What do you guys think?

Early Qing Qifu



Ming style collar







This post has been edited by DOUBLEMINT: Mar 21 2011, 04:37 AM

[thumbsUp]

Pardon me but I would highly disagree if you call these Qing clothes just because of something that look remotely like the Manchu collars to you.


Not like the Manchu collar which is from outer shirt

I guess you can't see what I'm seeing about the collar.

@DOUBLEMINT
Okay now I'm confused.

I didn't know Ming had that collar style. I thought it was a Machurian influence.


Hmm. It looks like she's wearing an Ao Dai with Ao Menh Phu jacket.
Got any more pictures?



This post has been edited by thumbsUp: Mar 21 2011, 04:33 AM

[XigonCongchua]

I think both of you are wrong.The so called "Mandarin collar" is actually "Hanfu" influence.It started around Late Ming Dynasty among women .Manchurian clothing didnt have this type of collar till the late Qing,much later than Ao Dai.Also Ao Dai collar is much closer to the Ming style collar.What do you guys think?

Early Qing Qifu


Ming style collar

Yes, I always felt that the "original" collar of áo dài wasn't similar to Manchu collar but I didn't know where they were from. Thanks for this information. The Ming dynasty actually annexed Vietnam briefly for 20 years from 1407 to 1427 (if I remember the years correctly), so that would explain the collar.

The collar of early áo dài look similar to the collar of the Ming dress you posted.




<-- It's actually "áo ngũ thân" but people call it "áo dài" anyway since it looks "close enough" to "modern ao dai"

vs

What I was trying to say was, Ao Dai's collar was influenced by Manchu clothing because before then
our clothing was collarless like the Hanfu.

Some version of colarless aodai still exist today but I don't think it's like Hanfu.



















Put it this way,

Ancient Vietnamese clothes (áo tứ thân) bear similarities with Hanfu, but then the two evolved away from one another. In Vietnam áo tứ thân evolved into áo ngũ thân, then with some influence from the French and Manchu, it eventually evolved into áo dài. So now, even though its precursor bears similarities to Hanfu, áo dài itself is not like Hanfu.

[thumbsUp]

Some version of colarless aodai still exist today but I don't think it's like Hanfu.


Put it this way,

Ancient Vietnamese clothes (áo tứ thân) bear similarities with Hanfu, but then the two evolved away from one another. In Vietnam áo tứ thân evolved into áo ngũ thân, then with some influence from the French and Manchu, it eventually evolved into áo dài. So now, even though its precursor bears similarities to Hanfu, áo dài itself is not like Hanfu.

I didn't mean that type of collarless. I meant like .
What I meant was before the Ao Dai, our clothing had no collar like this picture^
I don't know if you can call that collarless.

But somehow we switched to having a collared shirt.
When you look at the Le-Trinh and Japanese paintings you can see that we didn't have that Ao Dai type collar.

What I meant was our clothing was like this:

or
This:


Then suddenly switched to Ao Dai, and I was trying to figure out why it did.

We pretty much just went in circles cause you didn't understand what I was saying.
So in the end, pretty much we agree on the same thing. lol

[DOUBLEMINT]

I guess you can't see what I'm seeing about the collar.

@DOUBLEMINT
Okay now I'm confused.

I didn't know Ming had that collar style. I thought it was a Machurian influence.

Hmm. It looks like she's wearing an Ao Dai with Ao Menh Phu jacket.
Got any more pictures?

As I said,manchurians didnt have collar at first.

Ming clothing






This post has been edited by DOUBLEMINT: Mar 21 2011, 05:06 AM

[LonelyKitty]

Yeah Chinese influence the world with their Collardress, thanks to chinese we have this kind of "dress" which is very convient nowadays:

[papen]

Please verify this pic

This one's from another Japanese book " Thế giới nhân vật đồ quyển, năm 1714"

I can't read all the characters in the details as It's in Japanese but the title is Japanese people 東京人

It begins with 東京八(?)古 So I guess it's Ancient Japan.
I can't find any characters links to An Nam (old Vietnam name) and the closest is Quảng Nam 廣南 ??

[XigonCongchua]

Hm...because Lord Nguyen decreed that people to sew/close the upper garment "from armpits down".

So before it was like that


But after "closing the upper garment from armpit down", it became something similar to these




The decree lord nguyen specifically said that you can't "xẻ mở" or "split open" the upper garment "from armpits down".


Plus the styles you show were not the only "áo tứ thân"

These are called "áo tứ thân" too and they're pretty similar to the áo ngũ thân I posted




vs.







(notice the way one flap is put "over" another, creating a similar shape...oh and those áo tứ thân have low collar too)

I think those pics show a transition from "áo tứ thân" to "áo ngũ thân" and later áo dài.

This post has been edited by XigonCongchua: Mar 21 2011, 05:06 AM

[DOUBLEMINT]

Please verify this pic



I can't read all the characters in the details as It's in Japanese but the title is Japanese people 東京人

It begins with 東京八(?)古 So I guess it's Ancient Japan.
I can't find any characters links to An Nam (old Vietnam name) and the closest is Quảng Nam 廣南 ??

It says 交趾.