Were the Siamese and the Lao related? Options

[preahvihear]

This was what I gathered from the Internet about the Siamese and the Lao.

The Portuguese were the first Europeans to describe the present-day Thailand the country as “Siam”, which they learned from the Chinese, who learned it from the Khmer. The peoples of Thailand never called themselves as the “Siamese” at all. The Thai were called “Siam” by the Angkorians and they appeared on the bas relief at Angkor Wat as a part of the army of Lavo kingdom which was the center of Khmer culture in Chao Phraya valley. The Thai chiefdoms in the Chao Phraya valley were put under the Angkorian control under strong monarchs, including Suryavarman II and Jayavarman VII.

During the 1980’s, Khmer-speaking refugees in various refugee-holding camps in Thailand could easily get killed by any Thai soldiers if they heard any Khmer-speaking person called them as “Siem”. Innocent Khmer-speaking people always called the Thais as “Siem”, the Lao as “Liev”, the Vietnamese as “Yuon”, the French as “Barang/Barangses”, the Chinese as “Chen”, the Indians as “Kleng” and so on. For some strange reason, even the Vietnamese hate it when they hear a Khmer-speaking person call them as “Yuon”. To some extent, the happy-go-lucky Lao also get offended when they get called “Liev”. I guess these immigrants think that the Khmer look down on them or something.

The Tai (also spelled Dai) are a linguistic group originating in southern China, which includes the Lao, the Siamese, the people of the Shan region of north-eastern Burma, the Zhuang people of Guangxi Province in China and the Tho and Nung people of northern Vietnam. Under pressure from the expansion of the Han Chinese, the Tai began to migrate into South-East Asia during the first millennium AD. In fact, the ancient Lao calendar and Thai calendar are both of Chinese origin (adapted from the "Heavenly Stem Branch Calendar"). These calendars were both part of the royal religion (preserved in epigraphy) and, apparently, part of popular religion (fortune telling) for centuries.

The Tai migration rouote was the Mekong River, but the strength of the Khmer Empire prevented the Tai from dominating the Mekong Valley. Instead the main area of Tai settlement was further south in the Chao Phraya Valley, where they formed a series of kingdoms ancestral to modern Siam.

The Thai are a subgroup of the Tai people. Linguistic studies suggested that the origin of the Tai people lies around the Chinese Province of Guangxi, where the Zhuang people are still a majority. The ancient Tai people should be the part of Chinese Nanyue or "southern barbarians".

To escape the Chinese pressure, the Tai people migrated south where they met classical indianized civilizations of the Southeast Asia. The Tai first established themselves at Mueng Thaen (Thai: เมืองแถน) or modern Dien Bien Phu, according to the Khun Borom Legend. The Tai later scattered all around the continental Southeast Asia threatening the classical kingdoms and then replacing them. The Tai Yuan established themselves in northern Thailand, the Tai Lao people in modern Laos, and the Shans in Burma.

The Tais from the north gradually settled in the Chao Phraya valley from the tenth century onwards, in lands of the Dvaravati culture, assimilating the earlier Austroasiatic Mon and Khmer people, as well as coming into contact with the Khmer Empire. The Tais were engulfed into the Hindu-Khmer culture and this gave rise to the Thai culture.

During the Mongol invasion of 1253, part of Kublai Khan's army advanced down the Mekong to attack the Khmers. In the wake of the Mongol withdrawal a new kingdom were founded by the Siamese at Sukhothai, which was later succeeded by a more powerful Siamese state with its capital at Ayutthaya (founded in 1351). The kingdom of Lān Nā, based at Chiang Mai and containing both Siamese and Lao elements, was also founded at this time. Ayutthaya Empire's continued conquests led to more Thai settlements in the Khmer Empire.

As the Tai peoples became established, they divided into a number of linguistic sub-groups. These included the Tai-Lao, who during the 11th and 12th centuries AD spread along the middle Mekong Valley and across the Khōrāt Plateau (now the Isan region of north-eastern Thailand). Their advance down the Mekong was blocked at Champāsak by the Khmers, who built the great temple at Wat Phū. The Lao in turn divided into further groups, based on where they lived in relation to the river. These were the Lao-Lum (Lao of the valley floor), the Lao-Thoeng (Lao of the mountain slopes) and the Lao-Sūng (Lao of the mountain tops). This latter group included various linguistic minorities only distantly related to the Tai. The Lao-Lum, having the best farming land and the best access to river transport, became the wealthiest of the Tai-Lao peoples. These divisions have haunted Lao history and still exist today, with many Lao-Thoeng and Lao-Sūng people having only a tenuous loyalty to a Lao-Lum dominated state.

The Tai-Lao rulers formed a new state of Luang Prabang, which was subject to the Mongol rulers of China, became the leading force among the Lao peoples. From about 1271 this state was ruled by a dynasty called the Phrayā. In about 1350 a prince of this dynasty, Fā Ngum, fled the court with his father after a dispute and sought refuge with the Khmers at Angkor, where he married a royal Khmer princess. In 1353 he returned at the head of an army (presumably with Khmer aid), captured Luang Prabang and founded a new Lao state which covered the whole Lao-speaking Mekong valley. This was Lān Xāng, the Kingdom of a Million Elephants.

Over the next decade Fā Ngum sought to bring all the Lao under his authority. He conquered most of the Khōrāt Plateau, as well as territory in what is now north-western Vietnam. The Khmer court considered him to be a Khmer vassal. His Khmer wife is credited with introducing Theravada Buddhism to Lan Xang. In 1368, however, Fā Ngum's Khmer wife died, and shortly after the Mongol dynasty in China was overthrown. These events broke two key relationships sustaining Fā Ngum's power, and in 1373 he was overthrown as a result of a court intrigue and replaced by his son Unheuan (half Lao/Half Khmer), who took the name Sāmsaentai ("Lord of 300,000 Tai").

[PeaceMan]

Never ending...

So I'll repeat what i've been repeated...


Ancient Chinese said the Merged of Sien(Suphan) and Lorhu(Lavo) became "SienLorhu" (Sri Ayuttaya)

Vietnamese said the Merged of Siem(Suphan) and LaHoi(Lavo) became "SiemLa"(Sri Ayuttaya)

Please read this carefully for more info on... How we Siamese form our Siamese identity...


" intermarriage with the indigenous ruling elite must have been a particularly important mean by which such Tai princes rose gradually to power, the most important of these dynastic connections were formed between the indigenous rulers of the towns of the western fringe of the Chaophraya valley and the house form by Price Phrom. Out of that web of political and kinship relation, centered on the old towns of Suphanburi and Phetburi."

"There was no temporary break in the grand earlier traditions of the region, but rather a fundamental transformation. Elements of earlier tradition persisted, but they were recast in a new mold shaped partly by the circumstances of the era and partly by the charecter of Tai tradition."


"Earlier a major center of Dvaravati civilization and resumably with its own ruling house, Lopburi(Lavo;Lawapura) maintained independence as late as the first years of the eleventh century."

"Lopburi repeated attempts at independence reflect more than political factionalism or regionalism within the Angkorian empire. Lavo, after all, maintained a cultural and religious tradition as heir to Dvaravati and seem to have expressed a non-Khmer ethinic identity based on an earlier Mon-conciousness now tempered by self-conscious (Theravada)Buddhist. As far as Angkor was concerned, Lobburi(Lavo) seem to have represented Syam(i.e.,"Siam") whether as the center of , or more likely as the administration responsible for, that population."

David K. Wyatt




U = (Tai) cradle

Thong= (Austro-Asiantic) gold

UThong = (Austro-Tai) golden cradle


King UThong established "Krungthep Dvaravati Sri Ayuttaya"

Dvaravati = the ancient Theravadha kingdoms of ancient Suwannabhumi

Ayudhaya = the undefeatable city of Sri Rarm

Rarmatibhodi = the title name of King UThong...


Now you do the math...

Sien/Siem/Syam/Siam are actually how they called people from "Suphan" which had strong tie with Lavo/lawapura/Lopburi...

King U-Thong's power base was actully in Lavo/Loburi....It's the sanctuary for Rarmasuan;his son, to seek refuge from his uncle,"Khun Luang Pngua" (ขุนหลวงพะงั่ว) ,his mother's older brother...

So "Siem/Siam" is most likely doesn't mean "black" as many assumed, but rather "gold" from the word "Suphan"...

[PeaceMan]

Let's hear from the third party...

In my very humble speculation Xiêm La (Syam La) was Lavo.


I added in a part about the formation of the name "Xiêm La". Not sure whether you read it.

According to the Annals of Đại Việt (not sure if it's true), originally there were two states in the area. One was called "Xiêm" (Siam) and the other was called Lộ Hạc/La Hồi (Lavo in my speculation). Later, Lavo grew strong and absorbed Siam. That region is then known as "Xiêm La" (Xiêm from Siam and La from La Hồi/Lavo).

So Syam La was basically Lavo absorbing Siam.

The Xiêm La mentioned in the quotes above was supposed to be "Xiêm" only, because at that time Lavo still existed as a separate entity (known as Lộ Hạc or La Hồi to Vietnamese).

However, it's written as Xiêm La in the quote above because later historians confused the original Xiêm with the later Xiêm La, to them Xiêm and Xiêm La were interchangeable.

Lavo was a Mon state as I know, which would make Syam La a Mon state too, but there likely were other ethnicities there, like Wa, Tai, Khmer. I'm not sure whether it has nothing to do with Lao.


Also in my humble belief, there's a strong connection between Lavo and Dvaravati because Xuanzang, famous monk of the Tang dynasty (See Journey to the West), refer to Lavo in his journal as Tou-lo-po-ti (Dvaravati)


Chenla is Khmer for me because it well included the Mekong delta (Southern Vietnam) and present-day Cambodia and the people there are Khmer. If you say they were Mon then where did the Khmer come from? You can't say from the Cham.

[yumyumgood]

Siamese = Thai

I think they are related.

[menghuy]

[quote name='yumyumgood' post='5094556' date='Jan 17 2013, 04:08 PM']Siamese = Thai

I think they are related.[/quot

This post has been edited by menghuy: Jan 24 2013, 01:56 PM