New Theory on Angkor, Who were the last Varman kings? Options

[LoveIsAllAround]

One primary thing without citing any evidence or documents: Are Mon people sea-farers? I have looked information about this, but I can not find anythin related to Mon people and ships.. Hmmm..

Mon did not to be seafarer to march their troop from southern Thailand to Cambodia. Southern Thailand and Cambodia is not too far or too dangerous to sail. It's Siam gulf, a shallow sea, not deep Pacific ocean.

Mon in Isan, NE Thailand had this art, and this art were found in Phnom Kulen temple, which is predate Angkor Art. Khmer. Do you think there are anything relation between Mon art and what you call Khmer art?

Mon art from Faa Daed Song Yang, Mon Ancient city.

[LoveIsAllAround]

I guess us Lao people were right after all. Siamese today are of Khmer/Mon people and not the Tai as the modern Thai trying to portrayed today.

Same as Lao, but Lao love to be Chinese/Korean/Japanese. Too bad you don't want to look at your real face. (my signature, the lower right)

[LoveIsAllAround]

Is this a cultural trait?

Siamese pride

Syamese is Mon. Siamese is Syamese-Tai.

[Jin4life]

It doesn't matter because Siamese are still much darker then Lao people anyways. Just look at the difference! LOL!



This post has been edited by Jin4life: Feb 8 2012, 09:41 PM

[SEAhistory]

Mon did not to be seafarer to march their troop from southern Thailand to Cambodia. Southern Thailand and Cambodia is not too far or too dangerous to sail. It's Siam gulf, a shallow sea, not deep Pacific ocean.

Mon in Isan, NE Thailand had this art, and this art were found in Phnom Kulen temple, which is predate Angkor Art. Khmer. Do you think there are anything relation between Mon art and what you call Khmer art?

Mon art from Faa Daed Song Yang, Mon Ancient city.

yeah, the relation is that since Khmer expanded territory into Isan the Khmer style is seen in this area. This unique and greatly praised architecture was not seen anywhere in SEA except for Southern Cambodia. As much as the style of the Khmer temples are influenced by other kingdoms, all scholars praise them for their uniqueness. Not a single piece of evidence shows any cultural element of the uniqueness of Khmer architecture predating Chenla outside of Khmer territory.

As for the word Hun Tien. I have figured out with the help of my Chinese class mate what is the meaning. Hun is a word widely used to describe the world ruler. This word predates the Thai word Khun and holds no relation. The word Tian or Tien was used to describe a Veda, and also predates any Thai word. Soon I will post the translations in Chinese.

As for the 5 number base counting: The Khmer use number 5 counting together with 20 number base counting. This biquinary system was also used in Angkor. The wolof only has a number 5 base counting system and is not related to Khmer language whatsoever, lol.
Khmers also use base 20 = mphey. for example 21 = phey + muy. In Angkor period, Khmer also count 20 as mphey, 40 in Angkor count as mphlon. Currently, Khmer count Mphlon as 40 also but use for counting fruit only.

Thammasat University library, title: Khmerr-Thai, The great change in the history of the thai language of Chao Phraya Basin, By Wilaiwan Khanittanan, Department of Linguistic, Faculty of Liberal Arts, Thammasat University.

[KhmerBoi]

Funan base on Srivijaya_Empire map by KhmerBoiken, on Flickr

Thank you all!

Loves


Nice job! Look at my posting above, it is almost similar. We are heading to the thruth of Angkor history!

SEAhistory,

I am so proud of you.. you have always calm talking with this Thai people.. and keep provided us very good and used full solid evidences.. I hope I can learn from you some.. I have some documents talking about Southern Thailand, Thai relationship toward SEA.... If you like I will give you those documents.... Thank you so much.

Regards,

KhmerBoi

[SEAhistory]

You are lost in time and space, ok? What you call Khmer art did influence Mon in Lavo but it is late Dvaravati period. You cant' ignore Early and middle Dvaravati art. You can't name all Dvaravati art as Khmer art. This is really simple logic. If I use your logic, your Khmer art is nothing but Cham art or Malayu art. This is not in case that there are no really Khmer art Angkor arts are actually Mon-Malayu art and Cham/Malayu art.

Those art found in Pattani is Dvaravati art, not Malay. Early Sri vijara is Sri Bodhi or Chaiya, Mon was indigenous in Southern Thailand, not Malay or even NOT Khmer. You can't claim Mon Dvaravati art to Malay art (so you can link your Khmer to Cham and then to Malay, it's too many tricky steps. )

In order to claim this you have to prove that Langkasuka was mon and not Malay. Langkasuka was Malay ethinicity.

[SEAhistory]

Mon did not to be seafarer to march their troop from southern Thailand to Cambodia. Southern Thailand and Cambodia is not too far or too dangerous to sail. It's Siam gulf, a shallow sea, not deep Pacific ocean.

Mon in Isan, NE Thailand had this art, and this art were found in Phnom Kulen temple, which is predate Angkor Art. Khmer. Do you think there are anything relation between Mon art and what you call Khmer art?

Mon art from Faa Daed Song Yang, Mon Ancient city.

So... Mon are not Seafarers. Interesting.. I will show you some evidence pretty soon...

[SEAhistory]

It doesn't matter because Siamese are still much darker then Lao people anyways. Just look at the difference! LOL!

I think real Thai people are beautiful. It are those Thais intermixed with Chinese that are ugly as hell (no offence to Chinese, lol).

[SEAhistory]

SEAhistory,

I am so proud of you.. you have always calm talking with this Thai people.. and keep provided us very good and used full solid evidences.. I hope I can learn from you some.. I have some documents talking about Southern Thailand, Thai relationship toward SEA.... If you like I will give you those documents.... Thank you so much.

Regards,

KhmerBoi

yeah sure! Any info is welcome!

[LoveIsAllAround]

yeah, the relation is that since Khmer expanded territory into Isan the Khmer style is seen in this area. This unique and greatly praised architecture was not seen anywhere in SEA except for Southern Cambodia. As much as the style of the Khmer temples are influenced by other kingdoms, all scholars praise them for their uniqueness. Not a single piece of evidence shows any cultural element of the uniqueness of Khmer architecture predating Chenla outside of Khmer territory.

Those Mon art is Theravada Buddhist art, How could it be Khmer. And it had been created before Angkor established. This Sema art was found in Cambodia, this bas relief art might influenced khmer art in Angkor wall.

As for the word Hun Tien. I have figured out with the help of my Chinese class mate what is the meaning. Hun is a word widely used to describe the world ruler. This word predates the Thai word Khun and holds no relation. The word Tian or Tien was used to describe a Veda, and also predates any Thai word. Soon I will post the translations in Chinese.

If it was Khmer ruler, why Chinese didn't write it as 'kam mun tin' for Kamratin?

Tai's Taen/Tan and Chinese's Tien/Tian are same word, mean god/heaven
Tai's Luang and Chinese's Huang (Wang) are same word, mean king

As for the 5 number base counting: The Khmer use number 5 counting together with 20 number base counting. This biquinary system was also used in Angkor. The wolof only has a number 5 base counting system and is not related to Khmer language whatsoever, lol.
Khmers also use base 20 = mphey. for example 21 = phey + muy. In Angkor period, Khmer also count 20 as mphey, 40 in Angkor count as mphlon. Currently, Khmer count Mphlon as 40 also but use for counting fruit only.

Thammasat University library, title: Khmerr-Thai, The great change in the history of the thai language of Chao Phraya Basin, By Wilaiwan Khanittanan, Department of Linguistic, Faculty of Liberal Arts, Thammasat University.

Khmer number system is really interesting and it may help prove something misterious. Khmer got Thai's counting 30-100, 1000, 10000, 100000, 1000000 from Thai. This is also interesting that why Khmer replace Thai counting to Khmer language.

[XigonCongchua]

I'm lost now.

And I don't know why you both have to argue over this. Can't Khmer and Thai both have a similar heritage?

Well I guess I can understand why Khmer and Thai are fighting over this heritage, but I don't understand why Lao members bash their own heritage. I mean Lao culture is pretty much inherited from the Mon culture or whatever you call it in that region.

[KhmerBoi]

To Leeporter:

I have read one of your posted talking about Khmer and Lao who the confuse identity.. and My answer is No!! It is your Thai government who try to confuse your guy about Thai identity.. and you have told me too that you are Chinese. So I am feeling so sorry how Chinese-Thai mentality work in this Direction you might the decented of Thaksin who was once become King of Siam? I know that King is so aggressive but he help you Thai from Burmese who you think the most evil and your number one enemy?

While: I understand of your imperial knowlege again your nagbour as I can see you actually claim everything belong to Tai.. even though the Tai them self have no idea about that? Or Chinese like you want to become the France?

Thai people here said Khmer brainwash by France Khmer own nothing.. there is no Khmer Empire...
And Chinese like you said: Tai is everything in this region they own Thailand who is the modern Empire in this region? and claiming all the ancient power base in this region speak Tai?? where the solid evidence you got from.. i wonder why I never found any of them internationally?

France took Cambodia from Siem Influence and trying to make people aware of the Khmer Empire even though it for gain their power for their colonial but at least it base on the truth and lead the world to believe too...

What about you Chinese-Thai?? When you release your article for international and let debate?

Okay: From what I can see is Thailand national identity crisis: you know why?

Khmer, Lao and Thai these three have a very similar culture compare to other but it seem only Khmer and Lao who have a very strong believe in her original identity but Thai people still don't know who they really are?

Some Thai say Thai is a muti-ethnic nation.. Because I think most of country is the muti-ethnic population too..
Thai people say Khmer confuse with their national identity.. and Khmer is not a ethnic.. I wonder how this Thai think it that way???

OKay let me clear that.. Malaysian, Indonesian, Vietnam, Deutschland (Germany), Holland or the Netherlands, England... look at those nation they are very old races and still they keep their identity. Khmer and Lao is the same.

Thai really don't know what are they talking about here: For me Thai, is just like new countries American, Canadian, Australia in this term but the difference is those country learn and accepted their truth about their history..
like American have Thanksgiven Day to say thank to the Native American... but what Thailand the same American in education is the Imperial knowledge.. So they keep their right to invaded other nation!!!

These all all simple fact which existed in Thai mentality...

So Leeporter, without biasing here will you start a conversation of Q/A here about this Ancient History with me? If you not coward then we can started!!!

[LoveIsAllAround]

So... Mon are not Seafarers. Interesting.. I will show you some evidence pretty soon...

TBH, I really don't know. I just said it doesn't have to be a seafarer to sail from Southern Thailand to Cambodia.

But Mon are real indigenous in mainland SEA. Mon were found in Myanmar, Thailand and north of Malaysia. They inhabited both inland and seashores. Mon in Southern Myanmar in Tvoy, a major trade port to Arab/Indians, might be sea merchants becos there are trade records of Mon in ancient India.

[LoveIsAllAround]

In order to claim this you have to prove that Langkasuka was mon and not Malay. Langkasuka was Malay ethinicity.

Yes, they were Mon to begin with and they got Malay-ized to speak and adopt Malay (Indian) culture. Finally they are Mon-Malayu-Indian mixed blood.

[XigonCongchua]

I remember a long time ago some member hypothesized that Funan was Malay. Thus Chenla/Angkor, the succeeder of Funan is a mix of Malay + [enter another ethnic].

And hence Khmer people today would be a fusion of different ethnics that had once been to this area.

Am I right?

[Leeporter]

Why dont you give us some solid evidence in backing up your theory.

What kind of evidence you want?

About Bung Fai?

Go get your self some reading about Pha Taen or Khun Taen and the Toad. It's the legend of Tai-speaking people. And you have to explain why people in Chenla had such rocket playing when ZDG was there.

So much for your drum bronze;

Dating back to the Neolithic Age, the first bronze drums, called the Dong Son drums have been uncovered in and around the Red River Delta regions of Vietnam and Southern China. These relate to the prehistoric Dong Son Culture of Vietnam. Song Da bronze drum's surface, Dong Son culture, Vietnam

Dai Viet people also share the same frog story. Go ask Xigon, she knows it.

Thanks, it is pretty clear now that Malay were responsible for ruling the whole coastline of SEA, and Mon had nothing to do with Angkor.

How could you explain the Khun title of Malay?????
You idiot just shift it from Khmer to Cham and then from Cham to Malay, and skip the obvious evidence to tell who the rulers of Funan were.

Their title was "Khun", their name are pure Tai, Pan Wang = thousand palace, Pan Pan = thousand trays etc.

What you did is closing your eyes to the name of the rulers of Funan.

One primary thing without citing any evidence or documents: Are Mon people sea-farers? I have looked information about this, but I can not find anythin related to Mon people and ships.. Hmmm..

Tai-speaking people cruised to China and India all the times.
Who do you think brought elephants to China and went to Sri Lanka for Theravada mission?

Uhh, this proves a lot. Peoples cultures evolve and seeing this evolvements indicate links. A new culture doesnt suddenly appear from out of nowhere.

But no offense taken in the retard word, it just proves your like 16 or so.

Err. what you did is your label those art/culture with the word "Khmer" and cliam that Khmer influence Mon.

Zou Daguan described the slaves but said nothing about them being bhuddists or wearing the orange sarong. The normal people, however, all wore the orange sarong according to him. Also, I caught you on a fu-king lie, because Theravada Bhuddism was already very big in Kamboja, for instance:

King Rudravarman (514-539 AD) is said to have claimed that in his country there was a long Hair Relic of Lord Buddha for his people to worship. The Tharavada with Sanskrit language flourished in Funan in the fifth and earlier part of the sixth centuries AD. Around seventh century AD, the popular usage of Pali language in southern region suggested the strong appearance of Theravada Buddhism in Cambodia.

Idiot, can't you distinguish Theravada and Mahayan buddhist?

[KhmerBoi]

I'm lost now.

And I don't know why you both have to argue over this. Can't Khmer and Thai both have a similar heritage?

Well I guess I can understand why Khmer and Thai are fighting over this heritage, but I don't understand why Lao bash their own heritage. I mean Lao culture is pretty much inherited from the Mon culture or whatever you call it in that region.

No!! XigonCongchua, your presented here always importance.. what I can see you have to protect about your Dong Sum Drum Civilization? and keep provided us what you know about it...

[LoveIsAllAround]

Now, let's go back to the style of the Khmer temples.

many elder temples on Phnom Kulen shows both Cham (e.g. Prasat Damrei Krap) and Javanese influences (e.g. the primitive "temple-mountain" of Aram Rong Cen and Prasat Thmar Dap), even if their asymmetric distribution seems typically khmer.

Javanese influences, bacause the temples on Java show some aspects incorporated into Khmer style temples. For instance:



whom were responsible for these temples?

Answer: Sailendra

The area of Chaiya, in Surat Thani Province, Thailand, was already inhabited in prehistoric times by Semang and Malayan tribes. Founded in the 3rd century, the Srivijaya kingdom dominated the Malay Peninsula and much of the island of Java from there until the 13th century.

The nature of the Sailendras is more mysterious to me. They ruled over western and central Java, considerably far from Palembang but yet, they played a huge role in Srivijayan politics.

The background of several maharajas of Srivijaya further does not make the situation any clearer. The 8th century maharaja Dharmasetu was not a member of the Sailendras but he was mentioned as the head of Sailendra. Succeeding Dharmasetu as the maharaja was his son-in-law, a Sailendra. Samarantungga, another maharaja in Palembang, was a member of the Sailendras whom married Dharmasetu’s daughter, Dewi Tara.

The son-in-law which became the maharaja, known as Vishnu, was the one that started the construction of the Borobudur. Here is yet another question: Srivijaya was known for its Buddhism while the Sailendras were Hindus. Why a Sailendran would build not only a Buddhist monument, but the largest Buddhist monument in the whole wide world at its time?

By the time of Vishnu, the one thing that I know is that the Sailendras married into the existing Srivijayan royal blood and from there on, they took over the helm of Srivijaya. After Vishnu, the Srivijayan throne went to Samarantungga, yet another Sailendran. His son Balaputra also became the maharaja of Srivijaya.

Balaputra began as a weak head of the Sailendra. During this time, the Sailendras saw their influence being challenged by the Sanjayas. Now, the relationship between the Sailendras and the Sanjayas is another issue lost in history. That notwithstanding, The Sailendras were forced to leave Java by the Sanjayas during a power struggle in the 9th century. The Sailendra retreated and settle in Palembang, the home city of Balaputra’s mother, Dewi Tara. After the overthrow of the Sailendras by the Sanjayas in Java, Balaputra became the maharaja of Srivijaya.

After Balaputra, somehow, the Sailendras ceased to come up in my reading despite the fact the Srivijaya lasted for at least another 400 years. This could be explained by the expulsion of the Sailendras from Java by the Sanjayas but this that would treat the Sailendras as a kingdom, and not a family, which is another cause for confusion.

But in any case, the Sanjayas continued to build the Mataram kingdom. They ruled of western and central Java until Srivijaya eliminated them in the 11th century. As a side note, the fall of Mataram led to the formation of a Javanese royalty by the name of Airlangga to build the kingdom of Kahuripan. This kingdom is the precursor to the kingdom of Singhasari which later led to the Majapahit kingdom. The Srivijayan empire came to an end when Majapahit occupied Palembang and Jambi in the 13th century.

It is worth noting that the rivalry between the Sailendras and the Sanjayas may well be the beginning of the famed Malay-Javanese rivalry.

To make matter more confusing, the Sanjayas were actually part of the Sailendra dynasty.

While the home of the Sailendra was central Java, they were not of Javanese origin. So for from my reading, they might have come from Sumatra, Funan or India. The strongest possibly in my opinion on the moment is that they came from Sumatra. The reason is that Old Malay instead of Sanskrit were extensively used in matter related to the Sailendras.



Now, please tell me? Where do Mon come in the picture?

Also, interesting Java/Champa connection:

Have you finished this research about Chaiya/Srivijaya? What I got from this work. Chaiya is Sri Bodhi. Sir Bodhi is Early Srivijaya. So Early Srivijaya is Funanese-Mon, not Malay.
http://www7.plala.or.jp/seareview/newpage6Sri2011Chaiya.html

[Leeporter]

He also said that slaves spoke a different language then the rulers, so what language they spoke? Youre such a liar. He never said the Siamese spoke the same language as the rulers, which he obviously had metioned if this was the case.

SEAhistory, for sure slave in Chenla spoke Khmer, no doubt about that.

For the rulers, go check many Chinese's record since Funan.

The chineses recorded that the rulers of Funan and Chenla has the title "Kun Long" or "Khun Luang"

And their name "Khun Tian", "Khun Pan Wang", "Khun Pan Pan" are obvious a Tai name.

You have to explain it if you think it's a Khmer or Malay title and names.