New Theory on Angkor, Who were the last Varman kings? Options

[SabaiSabai]

I think all you Funan is Malay people keep forgetting one thing. There is 1 record written by the Chinese regarding the language spoken by the people of Funan.

It is written the people of Funan spoke the same language was the people of Tun Sun (tenessarim). Anyone want to tell me when the Mon people of Tun Sun magically turn into Malays or Khmers lol

Oh and another thing. Just because they were not known for seafaring does not mean they did not know how to sail. The Mon were in control of many important port cities. Did you think it didn't cross their minds to make short voyages? Lol once again very 2D way of thinking.

[KhmerBoi]

I think all you Funan is Malay people keep forgetting one thing. There is 1 record written by the Chinese regarding the language spoken by the people of Funan.

It is written the people of Funan spoke the same language was the people of Tun Sun (tenessarim). Anyone want to tell me when the Mon people of Tun Sun magically turn into Malays or Khmers lol

Oh and another thing. Just because they were not known for seafaring does not mean they did not know how to sail. The Mon were in control of many important port cities. Did you think it didn't cross their minds to make short voyages? Lol once again very 2D way of thinking.

I don't think Mon and Khmer have so much difference dialect at that time~ Do you know when I listen to the Mon and look at the Mon script they haven't change much, unlike Khmer have so much change!!! and I am understand why you guy trying to deny Khmer because Khmer is your future competition even now we already started... And Mon is already absorbed by Siem and become Thai already!!!

[XigonCongchua]

I don't think Mon and Khmer have so much difference dialect at that time

Well, even if we take the view that there's indeed some internal branching among AA, then Monic and Khmeric languages separated over 5000 years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AustroAs..._Peiros2004.png

That is very long before the formation of kingdoms in Southeast Asia

So Chinese named your kingdom as Funan after your kingdom's name 'Vnan'? Show me your proof that you khmer have a kingdom name 'Vnan' in Funan period.

People keep making mistakes by referring to the Mandarin pronunciation

It should be Bhanam, Bhunam, Bhanom, Bhunom, Bhanǝ̄m, Bhunǝ̄m...

Anything that sounds similar to the above could be a good candidate

[LoveIsAllAround]

Khmer like me never forget that Java (from Malay-Peninsular) was the once Khmer King..

Yes, Khmer were ruled by Cham, Malayu, Mon-Malayu, Mon-Siamese, Thai, Viet, French except Lao. Thank gods.

Don't forget the word Chaiya is come from the word Srivijaya they have power before you guy capture those area as well,

Chaiya is Thai pronunciation of Saskrit Jaya. I think Malays pronounce Jay. Srivijaya is Mon-Funanese since the beginning. Then they were more and more Malay. Learn to research ok? Don't stay in your French history. It's very outdated and stupid.

why Don't you ask you self why Sri Thamarath always trying to put back Siem influence in that region?

What a retard!!! ROTFLMAO!!!

Dont you know Sri Thammarat kings were the most close ally to Siamese Ayuthayan kings. They were the king of all southern Kings in Malay penn. You ignorant Khmer is really funny. Stop dreaming and Lying!!!

You Siem king receive Angkorian Heritage (by invaded and burn Angkor city) of the Malay-Peninsula but it doesn't mean those people are accept your power toward them..

LOL Khmer slaves didn't own any culture. Ayutthayan were Syamese. Syamese were ancient Chenla, who ruled your KHmer asses. You first true Khmer king is Trosok Peam, a Jerai/Cham king. LOL KHmer is Cham's bastards, plain fact.

And please note that your Sokothai Inscription actually a fake one!! Don't tell me that you don't know about that story^^

It's scientifically, linguistically proved that it's real. Why you bother for our Thai inscription, We thais never care to mention that you Khmer are all faked even though some stupid 'sruk khmer' carved on it. LOL btw, You dad, UNESCO, also prove and guarantee that Sukhothai inscription is real. Trust your dad., ok? Chamboi

[LoveIsAllAround]

I don't think Mon and Khmer have so much difference dialect at that time~ Do you know when I listen to the Mon and look at the Mon script they haven't change much, unlike Khmer have so much change!!! and I am understand why you guy trying to deny Khmer because Khmer is your future competition even now we already started... And Mon is already absorbed by Siem and become Thai already!!!

LOL

If Siamese/Thai really afraid you kHmer, then we wouldn't give and teach you Khmer to dance, dress, build...etc from our Siamese/Thai culture.

and you know why your language was change too bad? Becos Khmer is bastardized version of Khom mixed with Cham. Real Khom langauge is still preserved in Thailand not Cambodia.

[KhmerBoi]

Well, even if we take the view that there's indeed some internal branching among AA, then Monic and Khmeric languages separated over 5000 years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AustroAs..._Peiros2004.png

That is very long before the formation of kingdoms in Southeast Asia



People keep making mistakes by referring to the Mandarin pronunciation

It should be Bhanam, Bhunam, Bhanom, Bhunom...

Is is Bh is sound Ph is Vietnam?

[LoveIsAllAround]

People keep making mistakes by referring to the Mandarin pronunciation

It should be Bhanam, Bhunam, Bhanom, Bhunom, Bhanǝ̄m, Bhunǝ̄m...

Anything that sounds similar to the above could be a good candidate

Should it be Ba Lam? LOL Hainanese version.

[Leeporter]

It should be Bhanam, Bhunam, Bhanom, Bhunom, Bhanǝ̄m, Bhunǝ̄m...

Anything that sounds similar to the above could be a good candidate

How about Bho - Nan?

Will you buy it?

[XigonCongchua]

@LoveIsAllAfound: The N/L confusion is something common among some Cantonese and Fujianese, but it's not what Old Chinese was like.

@KhmerBoi: No

Not all consonants found in ancient languages can be found in modern languages.

How about Bho - Nan?

Will you buy it?

No.

The merging in -m ending and -n ending occurred very late in Mandarin. Even Old Mandarin, which developed in the 14th century still preserved the -m ending.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_Chinese

Old Mandarin

After the fall of the Northern Song dynasty, and during the reign of the Jin (Jurchen) and Yuan (Mongol) dynasties in northern China, a common speech developed based on the dialects of the North China Plain around the capital, a language referred to as Old Mandarin. New genres of vernacular literature were based on this language, including verse, drama and story forms.[7]

The rhyming conventions of the new verse were codified in a rhyme dictionary called the Zhongyuan Yinyun (1324). A radical departure from the rhyme table tradition that had evolved over the previous centuries, this dictionary contains a wealth of information on the phonology of Old Mandarin. Further sources are the 'Phags-pa script based on the Tibetan alphabet, which was used to write several of the languages of the Mongol empire, including Chinese, and the Menggu Ziyun, a rhyme dictionary based on 'Phags-pa. The rhyme books differ in some details, but overall show many of the features characteristic of modern Mandarin dialects, such as the reduction and disappearance of final plosives and the reorganization of the Middle Chinese tones.[7]

In Middle Chinese, initial plosives and affricates showed a three-way contrast between tenuis, voiceless aspirated and voiced consonants. There were four tones, with the fourth, or "entering tone", comprising syllables ending in plosives (-p, -t or -k). Syllables with voiced initials tended to be pronounced with a lower pitch, and by the late Tang Dynasty, each of the tones had split into two registers conditioned by the initials. When voicing was lost in all dialects except the Wu group, this distinction became phonemic, and the system of initials and tones was rearranged differently in each of the major groups.[8]

The Zhongyuan Yinyun shows the typical Mandarin four-tone system resulting from a split of the "even" tone and loss of the entering tone, with its syllables distributed across the other tones (though their different origin is marked in the dictionary). Similarly, voiced plosives and affricates have become voiceless aspirates in the "even" tone and voiceless non-aspirates in others, another distinctive Mandarin development. However, the language still retained a final -m, which has merged with -n in modern dialects, and initial voiced fricatives. It also retained the distinction between velars and alveolar sibilants in palatal environments, which later merged in most Mandarin dialects to yield a palatal series (rendered j-, q- and x- in pinyin).[7]

The flourishing vernacular literature of the period also shows distinctively Mandarin vocabulary and syntax, though some, such as the third-person pronoun tā (他), can be traced back to the Tang Dynasty.[9]

So even in the 14th century, the pronunciation was still nam. Nan is a late development.

The record of Funan was written in the 7th century. At that time, the pronunciation should be Nam.

[KhmerBoi]

another lie? LOL

Q is ch sound, not Kh sound.

Hun Tien to Thai's Khun Tien is closer than Funan to Khmer's Vanom.

What about Qiáochénrú 僑陳如 for Kaundinya?

[LoveIsAllAround]

The N/L confusion is something common among some Cantonese and Fujianese, but it's not what Old Chinese was like.

But the Chinese envoys most were traders who most Southern Chinese. Real name of Funan might be Southern Chinese accent Ba Lam and write it and Bha Nam in Old Chinese.

[KhmerBoi]

The N/L confusion is something common among some Cantonese and Fujianese, but it's not what Old Chinese was like.

@KhmerBoi: No

Not all consonants found in ancient languages can be found in modern languages.

I don't mean related Bh to Ph for Phnom it clear that ancient writing was Vunan and it normal in Khmer language that the V is change to P/Ph but it doesn't mean to match the word Funan to the modern word Phnom is help.. the meaning of it already enough for me. So for me I am really believe that the word Funan or Bhunan is from teh word Vunon.

I just wonder what you guy pronoun Bh here? because it is clear that in Khmer Bh pronoun as Ph for example the word: Sovannabhumi we pronoun and write as Sovannaphumi.


This post has been edited by KhmerBoi: Feb 9 2012, 02:07 AM

[KhmerBoi]

But the Chinese envoys most were traders who most Southern Chinese. Real name of Funan might be Southern Chinese accent Ba Lam and write it and Bha Nam in Old Chinese.

Oh now you change your theory?? I think this one is much better then the old one~! ^^ But Can you explain what why Chinese call Cambodia 柬埔寨 Jiǎnpǔzhài?

This post has been edited by KhmerBoi: Feb 9 2012, 02:02 AM

[LoveIsAllAround]

What about Qiáochénrú 僑陳如 for Kaundinya?

K in Kaundinya is /k/ not /kh/

Since when you are expert of Chinese?

[Leeporter]

No.

The merging in -m ending and -n ending occurred very late in Mandarin. Even Old Mandarin, which developed in the 14th century still preserved the -m ending.

So even in the 14th century, the pronunciation was still nam. Nan is a late development.

The record of Funan was written in the 7th century. At that time, the pronunciation should be Nam.

How about the first syllable "Bho" or Buddha?

Possible?

[LoveIsAllAround]

Oh now you change your theory?? I think this one is much better then the old one~! ^^ But Can you explain what why Chinese call Cambodia 柬埔寨 Jiǎnpǔzhài?

It doesn't matter if funan is really Bhanam, balam,bunam or any variations becos there are no links to any Khmer kingdoms.

[XigonCongchua]

But the Chinese envoys most were traders who most Southern Chinese. Real name of Funan might be Southern Chinese accent Ba Lam and write it and Bha Nam in Old Chinese.

Most Chinese dialects developed from Late Middle Chinese (Translation: they separated at the time of Late Middle Chinese)

Which means: prior to Late Middle Chinese, most Southern Chinese dialect didn't exist


The records were written in the 7th century

Late Middle Chinese starts from the 11th century


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Chinese_phonology

The terms "Old Chinese" and "Middle Chinese" refer to long periods of time in and of themselves, during which significant changes occurred. Although there is no standard system for subdividing these periods, the following is an approximate chronology leading from the oldest writings in the oracle bone script up through modern Standard Mandarin:

Axel Schuessler uses the term Early Zhou Chinese to refer to the language from the earliest records down to the end of the Western Zhou period (c. 1250 to 771 BC).

W. A. C. H. Dobson uses the term Early Archaic Chinese to refer to the same period ("10th to 9th century BC"), although Schuessler suggests that the term should refer to a slightly later period.
Dobson uses the term Late Archaic Chinese to refer to the "4th to 3rd century BC", i.e. the period near the beginning of the Han Dynasty.

Late Han Chinese (LHC) is c. 200 AD. This is around the time that the Min Chinese languages diverged from the others.

Old Northwest Chinese (ONWC), c. 400 AD, is a reconstruction by Weldon South Coblin of the language of the northwestern Chinese provinces of Gansu and Shaanxi that is immediately ancestral to a set of northwestern dialects documented by various early Tang dynasty authors.

Early Middle Chinese (EMC), c. 600 AD, is the language of the Qieyun rime dictionary, the first stage for which we have direct and detailed phonetic evidence. This evidence is not enough by itself to directly determine the sound system of the language, however, as it only subdivides characters into an initial consonant and non-initial portion, without further decomposing the latter into phonemes.

Late Middle Chinese (LMC), c. 1000 AD, is the native language of the authors of the Yunjing rime table and the oldest stage that can be reconstructed from modern non-Min varieties by the comparative method.

Early Mandarin, c. 1300 AD (sometimes specifically given as 1269-1455), is the language of the 'Phags-pa script, the first native script that directly encodes phonology. It is also documented in the

Zhōngyuán Yīnyùn (中原音韻 "Sounds and Rhymes of the Central Plains", an opera manual of 1324 AD written by Zhou Deqing).

Middle Mandarin, up through c. 1800 (sometimes specifically given as 1455-1795), documented in numerous Chinese, Korean and European sources. Among these are Chinese-Korean pedagogical texts such as Hongmu Chôngyun Yôkhun (1455) and Sasông T’onghae (1517); the Portuguese-Chinese dictionary (1583–1588) of the Christian missionary Matteo Ricci; and Chinese rhyme manuals such as the Yunlue Huitong (1642).

Modern Standard Mandarin, a standardized form of the dialect of Beijing that is little changed from the 19th century.

To a large degree, Late Middle Chinese (LMC) of c. 1000 AD can be viewed as the direct ancestor of all Chinese varieties except Min Chinese; in other words, attempting to reconstruct the parent language of all varieties excluding Min leads no farther back than LMC. See below for more information.

[KhmerBoi]

K in Kaundinya is /k/ not /kh/

Since when you are expert of Chinese?

Lol as I am Khmer sound K sometime become Kh.

This post has been edited by KhmerBoi: Feb 9 2012, 02:10 AM

[XigonCongchua]

How about the first syllable "Bho" or Buddha?

Possible?

Not possible because Buddha was transcribed as 佛陀 (But-da --- Futuo in modern Mandarin)

[LoveIsAllAround]

Most Chinese dialects developed from Late Middle Chinese (Translation: they separated at the time of Late Middle Chinese)

Which means: prior to Late Middle Chinese, most Southern Chinese dialect didn't exist


The records were written in the 7th century

Late Middle Chinese starts from the 11th century


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Chinese_phonology

Thanks

Lol as I am Khmer sound K sometime become Kh.

Becos you speak Khmer. LOL Those Funanese whom Chinese met, they spoke Sanskrit. K must be K not Kh.