New Theory on Angkor, Who were the last Varman kings? Options

[Leeporter]

Now, let's go back to the style of the Khmer temples.

<garbage deleted>

See? What you did is to label things as "Khmer"

You havn't proved that the ruler of Funan and Chenla were Khmer or not.

What you did is to label everything on mainland SEA as "Khmer"

And make it like "Khmer Slave" knew how to do those things since they were born.

You don't want me to call you "retard" you want me to call you what?

why do you keep discredit Mon? Are you fear that they will take everything you named as Khmer?

Well, that's what he did. He just label everything as "Khmer" and claim that every other people copied "Khmer" style.

And say "see? Mon got Khmer influence"

What a retard he is, you think so?

[Leeporter]

As for the word Hun Tien. I have figured out with the help of my Chinese class mate what is the meaning. Hun is a word widely used to describe the world ruler. This word predates the Thai word Khun and holds no relation. The word Tian or Tien was used to describe a Veda, and also predates any Thai word. Soon I will post the translations in Chinese.

ha ha ha ... Tell us which race.tribes in SEA mainlander used the word "Hun" or "Khun" as the ruler, if not Tai.

Tien is the name of "Taen" or Khun Taen/ Pya Taen in the legend of Tai-speaking people.

You got to explain why "Khmer" rulers of Funan and Chenla would use the title "Khun" and "Khun Luang"

And explain why their names, "Pan Wang", "Pan Pan" etc. were in Tai.

We have no doubt that the slaves of Chenla spoke Khmer, I won't take that from you.

We are talking about the rulers of Funan and Chenla.

Explain why they use Tai title and names.

[XigonCongchua]

Khun Luang?

It's recorded that in ancient Vietnam, the son of a King (a Prince) was called Quan Lang, whereas the daughter of a king (a princess) was called "Mị Nương"

Today, Mường people (who's closely related to the ancient Viet) call eldest son of a village chief "lang kun"

[KhmerBoi]

SEAhistory, for sure slave in Chenla spoke Khmer, no doubt about that.

For the rulers, go check many Chinese's record since Funan.

The chineses recorded that the rulers of Funan and Chenla has the title "Kun Long" or "Khun Luang"

And their name "Khun Tian", "Khun Pan Wang", "Khun Pan Pan" are obvious a Tai name.

You have to explain it if you think it's a Khmer or Malay title and names.

So Far there is only one record from China about Funan that is call Book of Liang.

The Book of Liang records the story of the foundation of Funan by the foreigner Hùntián (混塡): "He came from the southern country Jiào (徼, an unidentified location, perhaps on the Malaysian Peninsula or in the Indonesian archipelago) after dreaming that his personal genie had delivered a divine bow to him and had directed him to embark on a large merchant junk. In the morning, he proceeded to the temple, where he found a bow at the foot of the genie's tree. He then boarded a ship, which the genie caused to land in Fúnán. The queen of the country, Liǔyè (柳葉, "Willow Leaf") wanted to pillage the ship and seize it, so Hùntián shot an arrow from his divine bow which pierced through Liǔyè's ship. Frightened, she gave herself up, and Hùntián took her for his wife. But unhappy to see her naked, he folded a piece of material to make a garment through which he made her pass her head. Then he governed the country and passed power on to his son, who was the founder of seven cities." Nearly the same story appeared in the Jìn shū 晉書 ("History of the Jìn Dynasty" or "Book of Jin"), compiled by Fáng Xuánlíng 房玄齡 (578–648) in AD 648; however, in the Book of Jin the names given to the foreign conqueror and his native wife are "Hùnhuì" 混湏 and "Yèliǔ" 葉柳.

混塡 read as Hùn tián so how it read as Khun Tien?? if it were Kh not H Chinese should used Q instead of H for Kh.. I think you should have known this if you are Chinese or you are fake Chinese, and jsut want to make Chinese look bad here?

This post has been edited by KhmerBoi: Feb 8 2012, 10:50 PM

[XigonCongchua]

Character 混 is read "Cổn" in Vietnamese (another reading is "Hỗn"), so a K- initial in Old Chinese is most plausible.

However, relation of Huntien to Khun Thaen could be merely coincidence. I don't think Tai people were down in Cambodia at that time.


Here's a thread on the connection of Funan to Malay
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4314


In my opinion, they could be either Malay or Khmer, or should I say, an ancient group of people that was related to Malay or Khmer.

[Leeporter]

Have you finished this research about Chaiya/Srivijaya? What I got from this work. Chaiya is Sri Bodhi. Sir Bodhi is Early Srivijaya. So Early Srivijaya is Funanese-Mon, not Malay.
http://www7.plala.or.jp/seareview/newpage6Sri2011Chaiya.html

He doesn't want to read it. It's too new for him.

He prefer to stick to the outdated theory of Srivijaya at Pamembang.

Such theory was proved to be wrong like 20 years ago, not just now.

But many Coedes's follow still keep it although it doesn't fit so many evidences..

[LoveIsAllAround]

...

This post has been edited by LoveIsAllAround: Feb 8 2012, 11:01 PM

[Leeporter]

Character 混 is read "Cổn" in Vietnamese (another reading is "Hỗn"), so a K- initial in Old Chinese is most plausible.

However, relation of Huntien to Khun Thaen could be merely coincidence. I don't think Tai people were down in Cambodia at that time.


Here's a thread on the connection of Funan to Malay
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4314


In my opinion, they could be either Malay or Khmer, or should I say, an ancient group of people that was related to Malay or Khmer.

How do you know that no Tai-speaking people down in Cambodia or southern Thailand?
Because the French' s theory, right?

One name, Hun Tien may be coincidence, but several names such as Khun Pan Wang, Khun Pan Pan etc.

How could you still say it's coincidence?

And also the rocket playing ZDG saw in Chenla was surely related to the legend of Taen of the Tai-speaking people.

What a coincidence, isn't it?

[LoveIsAllAround]

He doesn't want to read it. It's too new for him.

He prefer to stick to the outdated theory of Srivijaya at Pamembang.

Such theory was proved to be wrong like 20 years ago, not just now.

But many Coedes's follow still keep it although it doesn't fit so many evidences..

He MUST read it.

TBH, I just had time to read it yesterday, still haven't finished all of it. But it change my perspective of Srivijaya. I thought it was Malay as a whole. (Same Like I thought Angkor/Chenla/Funan was Khmer as a whole). Thanks for your link too.

[Leeporter]

Character 混 is read "Cổn" in Vietnamese (another reading is "Hỗn"), so a K- initial in Old Chinese is most plausible.

Thank you for confirming that it was a "K" sound.

[KhmerBoi]

Character 混 is read "Cổn" in Vietnamese (another reading is "Hỗn"), so a K- initial in Old Chinese is most plausible.

However, relation of Huntien to Khun Thaen could be merely coincidence. I don't think Tai people were down in Cambodia at that time.


Here's a thread on the connection of Funan to Malay
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4314


In my opinion, they could be either Malay or Khmer, or should I say, an ancient group of people that was related to Malay or Khmer.

I don't know it in Vietnamese.. the thing is I have to make it clear is that those two sound can be replace in old Chinese or not.. Anyways Vietnamese language also in Austroasiatic or or Mon-Khmer language family.. I heard that before the Vietnamese adopted the Chinese civilization they also used the Indian script too, am I correct?

This post has been edited by KhmerBoi: Feb 8 2012, 11:06 PM

[XigonCongchua]

Not just the French, but world linguists seem to all agree that dispersal of Tai-Kadai languages to SEA occurred relatively late. They mostly just concentrated on the Northern part of SEA, like Viet people, and didn't expand south until much later.

It seems that if I accept this theory, I have to disregard virtually all works on Tai-Kadai languages by linguists over many decades.

The contradiction is too great for me to make.

[Leeporter]

He MUST read it.

TBH, I just had time to read it yesterday, still haven't finished all of it. But it change my perspective of Srivijaya. I thought it was Malay as a whole. (Same Like I thought Angkor/Chenla/Funan was Khmer as a whole). Thanks for your link too.

You must read another paper from Silpakorn U. I posted earlier here.

http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?...t&p=4997476

Man! I was too late, they found it like so many years ago.

But anyway, it confirmed what I believe.

Except that they haven't tried to link Hun Tien with Pya Taen yet.

I will search to see whether anyone noticed this and came up with any theory about it yet.

[Leeporter]

Not just the French, but world linguists seem to all agree that dispersal of Tai-Kadai languages to SEA occurred relatively late. They mostly just concentrated on the Northern part of SEA, like Viet people, and didn't expand south until much later.

That's simple, Xaigon.

Because they ignored those names like Khun Tian, Khun Pan Wang, Khun Pan Pan, Khun Luang etc.

The French colonists, for their political purpose, made an assumption that Tai-speaking people were not there until after 12th century.

So, they ignored the possibility that these names can be Tai because of their assumtion.

And they use it to confirm that no Tai presence there. Unbelievable way to distort the history, isn't it?

And they still couldn't find out what those names are.

It seems that if I accept this theory, I have to disregard virtually all works on Tai-Kadai languages by linguists over many decades.

The contradiction is too great for me to make.

Sure, it't not only you. It's hard for Thai themselves to accept it.
They have been brainwashed by the French's distort version of history for decades.
And that's why it's called "New theory" here

If you started with the assuption that no Tai presence here, then you will look into one direction only and that's why the history of Funan, Chenla are still mysterious today.

[XigonCongchua]

I don't know it in Vietnamese.. the thing is I have to make it clear is that those two sound can be replace in old Chinese or not.. Anyways Vietnamese language also in Austroasiatic or or Mon-Khmer language family.. I heard that before the Vietnamese adopted the Chinese civilization they also used the Indian script too, am I correct?

I need a date on when the Chinese wrote that record. Because if it was prior to the Tang dynasty, the initial was most likely a K, not an H- like in modern Mandarin, which developed during the Ming dynasty.

Yes Vietnamese is an AA language, but it separated from Mon and Khmer 6000 years ago (according to the data Peiros in 2004), Sidewell's data in 2009 indicated no internal branching in AA, so the separation point was over 8000 years ago, prior to the dispersal of Mon-Khmer to Southeast Asia. Hence, Viet culture was relatively separate, they didn't adopt Indian script like Mon and Khmer people. There was indeed an ancient Viet writing that was lost, but it wasn't an Indian-based script.

[LoveIsAllAround]

So Far there is only one record from China about Funan that is call Book of Liang.

The Book of Liang records the story of the foundation of Funan by the foreigner Hùntián (混塡): "He came from the southern country Jiào (徼, an unidentified location, perhaps on the Malaysian Peninsula or in the Indonesian archipelago) after dreaming that his personal genie had delivered a divine bow to him and had directed him to embark on a large merchant junk. In the morning, he proceeded to the temple, where he found a bow at the foot of the genie's tree. He then boarded a ship, which the genie caused to land in Fúnán. The queen of the country, Liǔyè (柳葉, "Willow Leaf") wanted to pillage the ship and seize it, so Hùntián shot an arrow from his divine bow which pierced through Liǔyè's ship. Frightened, she gave herself up, and Hùntián took her for his wife. But unhappy to see her naked, he folded a piece of material to make a garment through which he made her pass her head. Then he governed the country and passed power on to his son, who was the founder of seven cities." Nearly the same story appeared in the Jìn shū 晉書 ("History of the Jìn Dynasty" or "Book of Jin"), compiled by Fáng Xuánlíng 房玄齡 (578–648) in AD 648; however, in the Book of Jin the names given to the foreign conqueror and his native wife are "Hùnhuì" 混湏 and "Yèliǔ" 葉柳.

混塡 read as Hùn tián so how it read as Khun Tien??[b] if it were Kh not H Chinese should used Q instead of H for Kh.. I think you should have known this if you are Chinese [/b] or you are fake Chinese, and jsut want to make Chinese look bad here?

another lie? LOL

Q is ch sound, not Kh sound.

Hun Tien to Thai's Khun Tien is closer than Funan to Khmer's Vanom.

[KhmerBoi]

How do you know that no Tai-speaking people down in Cambodia or southern Thailand?
Because the French' s theory, right?

One name, Hun Tien may be coincidence, but several names such as Khun Pan Wang, Khun Pan Pan etc.

How could you still say it's coincidence?

And also the rocket playing ZDG saw in Chenla was surely related to the legend of Taen of the Tai-speaking people.

What a coincidence, isn't it?

If it were Tai-people tell me why southern Thailand speak with Khmer words? and have similar tradition of what we do in Cambodia not like in central Thailand?

Okay Rocket Play is also found in country of Cambodia... but it was bamn by government because of the civilwar of Cambodia.. a Wow thanoo in Thailand is in Khmer call Khleang Eak that that kite was invented by Thun Chei during his migrated in China.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_Festival

It so much interesting that.. Khmer Culture have influence directed to Northeastern Thailand as well not through Siem of central Thailand! ^^

[LoveIsAllAround]

How do you know that no Tai-speaking people down in Cambodia or southern Thailand?
Because the French' s theory, right?

One name, Hun Tien may be coincidence, but several names such as Khun Pan Wang, Khun Pan Pan etc.

How could you still say it's coincidence?

And also the rocket playing ZDG saw in Chenla was surely related to the legend of Taen of the Tai-speaking people.

What a coincidence, isn't it?

It's be a coincident if there is only 1 word. But there are many word that can be Tai name and ancient Tia titles. Good historians shouldn't debunk this possibility. As we can see, nobody believe that Viets are related to Mon-Khmer than Thais, if they didn't learn that Viet language is Mon-Khmer.

[Leeporter]

If it were Tai-people tell me why southern Thailand speak with Khmer words? and have similar tradition of what we do in Cambodia not like in central Thailand?

Because Southern Thailanders then were your master!

Okay Rocket Play is also found in country of Cambodia... but it was bamn by government because of the civilwar of Cambodia.. a Wow thanoo in Thailand is in Khmer call Khleang Eak that that kite was invented by Thun Chei during his migrated in China.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_Festival

It so much interesting that.. Khmer Culture have influence directed to Northeastern Thailand as well not through Siem of central Thailand! ^^

So, you means your Khmers share the same story of Pha Dang and Nang Ai and the story of Pya Taen with the Tai-speaking people?

This post has been edited by Leeporter: Feb 8 2012, 11:48 PM

[KhmerBoi]

another lie? LOL

Q is ch sound, not Kh sound.

Hun Tien to Thai's Khun Tien is closer than Funan to Khmer's Vanom.

So then tell me the V sound in Chinese and which the closest sound of Chinese to the V in Khmer?