Ancient Artifacts, Ancient Paintings & More Options

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People keep criticizing Lý Công Uẩn - Đường đến Thăng Long, but after looking at their costumes, I found that they're actually pretty history-accurate. What do you expect? All their customs were designed by the author of the popular documentary series "Đi Tìm Trang Phục Việt" as I heard. They just hate because of the director. People just get too emotional and don't think. Also thanks the oversea anti-communists for exaggerating and fueling the hatred, now the movie is banned. Happy?

Agreed. They know nothing but they like to judge just because there's a "Chinese" director.

Ly Cong Uan is probably the most historically accurate with the ancient costumes but Vietnamese
people aren't used to seeing those types of costumes as Vietnamese. They don't know what Vietnamese
clothing looked before the 20th century and like to assume our clothing never changed.

I want to see that show so bad.
It's not banned, it's still in the process of approval.

It's just weird that Tran Thu Do didn't show yet either.

[DOUBLEMINT]

vietnamese people in an ancient chinese painting.

[XigonCongchua]

^ Thanks for the contribution.

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The dress from the clip you post is obviously ethnic Muong dress. Even her hat is from ethnic Muong.

I forgot to mention.

Ao Tu Than shows up @ 2.17 LOL. First one is ethnic Muong dress which is probably also from the same roots
as Ao Tu Than and evolved separately.

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vietnamese people in an ancient chinese painting.

Nice!

Do you know the date of this painting?

[DOUBLEMINT]

Nice!

Do you know the date of this painting?

1751-1757.《皇清职贡图》

[XigonCongchua]

Agreed. They know nothing but they like to judge just because there's a "Chinese" director.

Ly Cong Uan is probably the most historically accurate with the ancient costumes but Vietnamese
people aren't used to seeing those types of costumes as Vietnamese. They don't know what Vietnamese
clothing looked before the 20th century and like to assume our clothing never changed.

I want to see that show so bad.
It's not banned, it's still in the process of approval.

It's just weird that Tran Thu Do didn't show yet either.

I really hate it when people act irrationally. People complain about that drama being "too Chinese", but really do they even know what is "too Chinese" and what's not? I guess they just watch too much Chinese drama and they don't know what is Vietnamese anymore. We should make a TV series to show them distinction between "what is Chinese" and "what is Viet". Eg: Clothes of Vietnamese royalty prior to the Le dynasty often have red color instead yellow. Speaking of color of Vietnamese royalty, I just remember that in the series "Về Đất Thăng Long", they use yellow for the kings' clothes while in Đường Đến Thăng Long red is used for royal clothes, and OMG they protest DDTL as being "too Chinese" but not "Về Đất Thăng Long"? God, they even let the king wear manchu clothes (not aodai) in one of the scenes in Về Đất Thăng Long. DDTL seems much more historically accurate. People are just too ignorant.

[XigonCongchua]

Reconstructed clothings from research

Mạc Dynasty

This one is similar to that picture


Funny it's from the same dynasty.

Servant to the queen



Statue of princess of the Lê dynasty

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1751-1757.《皇清职贡图》

Thanks. Paintings like this really help us get a clearer picture of Vietnam's past.

I don't know what happened to all Vietnamese paintings before the Nguyen Dynasty because they're nearly nonexistent.
Possibly burnt throughout all those wars.

I really hate it when people act irrationally. People complain about that drama being "too Chinese", but really do they even know what is "too Chinese" and what's not? I guess they just watch too much Chinese drama and they don't know what is Vietnamese anymore. We should make a TV series to show them distinction between "what is Chinese" and "what is Viet". Eg: Clothes of Vietnamese royalty prior to the Le dynasty often have red color instead yellow. Speaking of color of Vietnamese royalty, I just remember that in the series "Về Đất Thăng Long", they use yellow for the kings' clothes while in Đường Đến Thăng Long red is used for royal clothes, and OMG they protest DDTL as being "too Chinese" but not "Về Đất Thăng Long"? God, they even let the king wear manchu clothes (not aodai) in one of the scenes in Về Đất Thăng Long. DDTL seems much more historically accurate. People are just too ignorant.

Yeup definitely.
Most likely a result of watching too many foreign movies instead of focusing on improving our own.
Most Vietnamese, especially ones overseas know more about foreign history (Chinese, Korean etc) than our own because
of these dramas which is possibly why they criticized DDTTL. They don't know anything about their own culture besides
what happened in the past 200 years.

I just hate how there are some Viet Kieu who are utilizing this to criticize the government as Chinese sellouts etc. They're just
making the situation worse.

[XigonCongchua]

They actually bear similarity to áo ngũ thân in the 19th century. The major difference is that áo ngũ thân doesn't show the "inner shirt"


You can see the strongest similarity in the 3rd row, 3rd person from the left, walking in red.



This post has been edited by XigonCongchua: Mar 21 2011, 02:03 AM

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They actually bear similarity to áo ngũ thân in the 19th-20th century. You can see the strongest similarity in the 3rd row, 3rd person from the left, walking in red. The major difference is that áo ngũ thân doesn't show the "inner shirt"

The difference is the outer shirt/coat style.

It went from these:



To this:


Was it possible that we had gotten influence from Qing dynasty also?
It would explain the change in the outer shirt and the shirt collar and the similarity of Ao Dai to Qipao.

[hoang_1989]

I like this thread. It is interesting to follow xigon's and thump up's conversation. both of you give quite constructive arguments.

[XigonCongchua]

Lord Nguyen decreed that "women dresses had to sewn together", speaking in Vietnamese, áo yếm and áo ngoài phải mai chặt với nhau, so the inner shirt doesn't show.

BTW don't you see that áo ngũ than and áo dài never revealed any button like qipao does? Also the "high slit" of aodai is also more similar to áo tứ thân than to qipao.

I feel that in Manchu dresses, they create a low slit at around the knee just to make walking easy, not to make the dress "flow".



The high slits of aodai (which it inherited from áo ngũ thân and áo tứ thân) are there to make the dress "flow".





This post has been edited by XigonCongchua: Mar 21 2011, 02:16 AM

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Lord Nguyen decreed that "women dresses had to sewn together", speaking in Vietnamese, áo yếm and áo ngoài phải mai chặt với nhau, so the inner shirt doesn't show.

Which Nguyen Lord was that?

Here is something interesting.

We went from this:



To this:



To this:

[DOUBLEMINT]

Was it possible that we had gotten influence from Qing dynasty also?
It would explain the change in the outer shirt and the shirt collar and the similarity of Ao Dai to Qipao.

Its possible.This painting is called 《安南國王至避暑山莊》 from 《十全敷藻圖冊》.Its about the king of vietnam went to beijing and asked the Qing emperor's permission to change viet clothing to Qing clothing.The emperor was very happy ,he even wrote a peom about it:《安南國王阮光平乞遵天朝衣冠》.


This post has been edited by DOUBLEMINT: Mar 21 2011, 02:23 AM

[thumbsUp]

Lord Nguyen decreed that "women dresses had to sewn together", speaking in Vietnamese, áo yếm and áo ngoài phải mai chặt với nhau, so the inner shirt doesn't show.

BTW don't you see that áo ngũ than and áo dài never revealed any button like qipao does? Also the "high slit" of aodai is also more similar to áo tứ thân than to qipao.

I feel that in Manchu dresses, they create a low slit at around the knee just to make walking easy, not to make the dress "flow".



The high slits of aodai (which it inherited from áo ngũ thân and áo tứ thân) are there to make the dress "flow".

I know that slit difference and that's really what makes Ao Dai different, along with the fabric.
But the collar and the way it's buttoned seems the same (going straight down, or to the right and down the side).
There are ao dai that reveals buttons. I remember posting some old photos of Vietnamese
in the 20th century with them wearing Ao Dai with buttons showing. Add to that the pants that are worn with it.
Remember Vietnamese wore skirts up until Nguyen Dynasty.

It just feels so coincidental that we all of a sudden added in a collared style clothing similar to Qing clothing, and pants
whereas before it was nonexistent as seen in old paintings.

Its possible.This painting is called 《安南國王至避暑山莊》 from 《十全敷藻圖冊》.Its about the king of vietnam went to beijing and asked the Qing emperor‘s permission to change viet clothing to Qing clothing.The emperor was very happy ,he even wrote a peom about it:<安南國王阮光平乞遵天朝衣冠>

Wow. So coincidental.

You just answered a question that I just asked. lol

[XigonCongchua]

Which Nguyen Lord was that?

Lord Nguyễn Phục Khoát decreed,

"Thường phục thì đàn ông, đàn bà dùng áo cổ đứng ngắn tay, cửa ống tay rộng hoặc hẹp tùy tiện. Áo thì hai bên nách trở xuống phải khâu kín liền, không được xẻ mở. Duy đàn ông không muốn mặc áo cổ tròn ống tay hẹp cho tiện khi làm việc thì được phép ..." - from Đại Nam Thực Lục Tiền Biên

Translation of that bold part: "The upper garment, from the shoulders/armpits down, has to be sewn together, can't have open split".

Basically you can't reveal inner shirt anymore.

[XigonCongchua]

Its possible.This painting is called 《安南國王至避暑山莊》 from 《十全敷藻圖冊》.Its about the king of vietnam went to beijing and asked the Qing emperor's permission to change viet clothing to Qing clothing.The emperor was very happy ,he even wrote a peom about it:《安南國王阮光平乞遵天朝衣冠》.

That doesn't make sense. The Kings of Vietnam at that time period were Lê folks and China recognized that. People under Lê rule always wore áo tứ thân. The Nguyễn folks were just "lords" and they wouldn't be able to have ambassadors to China representing "Annam". Only Lê kings would send ambassadors. Furthermore, Nguyễn folks were never recognized as "kings" of the country within Vietnam or China.

This post has been edited by XigonCongchua: Mar 21 2011, 02:34 AM

[DOUBLEMINT]

That doesn't make sense. The Kings of Vietnam at that time period were Lê folks and China recognized that. People under Lê rule always wore áo tứ thân. The Nguyễn folks were just "lords" and they wouldn't be able to have ambassadors to China representing "Annam". Only Lê kings would send ambassadors. Furthermore, Nguyễn folks were never recognized as "kings" of the country within Vietnam or China.

According to the title of that painting,its not an ambassador,its the king himself.And the Qing emperor in the painting is Qianlong.So are you sure Lê was the only king during the Qianlong period ?Im sorry i dont know that much about vietnam history,I was simply quoting from the internet.

This post has been edited by DOUBLEMINT: Mar 21 2011, 02:44 AM

[XigonCongchua]

Which Nguyen Lord was that?

Here is something interesting.

We went from this:

That's one of the "earlier" kings of the Nguyễn dynasty right?

That shows the Nguyễn didn't really change their clothes to "Qing clothes" because if they did, you wouldn't see that picture.

Look at the picture of King Ming Mạng, he still wore "Hanfu-like" clothes. And this was in the 1830s


Under Thiệu Trị's reign (1841-1847)


The last pictures you show were late Nguyễn dynasty, when "áo dài" had already been revolutionized into its modern form.

This post has been edited by XigonCongchua: Mar 21 2011, 02:48 AM