Ancient Artifacts, Ancient Paintings & More Options

[XigonCongchua]

^ People of different classes dress differently, not to mention regional variations, like áo tứ thân of Kinh Bắc region is different from other áo tứ thân, so those paintings only show one side of a multi-dimensional picture.


I've just taken a careful look at the slits of the Ming dress and the Cham/Indian dress, they're not at waist length like áo dài, áo tứ thân, and áo ngũ thân but at thigh length or "butt" length instead.








Vietnamese dresses always have slits at the waist, be it áo dài, áo tứ thân, áo ngũ thân, áo mệnh phụ, or even áo bà ba

ao dai



áo ngũ thân


áo tứ thân






áo mệnh phụ

(Trần dynasty)

áo bà ba




Seems to me that's something that never changes about Vietnamese dresses.

You know that modern áo dài designer can change almost everything about áo dài - the collar, the sleeves, the length of the flaps etc. but something that they never change is the slits. If they alter the slit, it's no longer áo dài in the eyes of Vietnamese people. So the slits must always be there and in the right location.

<-- combination of áo yếm and áo dài



This post has been edited by XigonCongchua: Mar 21 2011, 03:48 PM

[thumbsUp]

^ People of different classes dress differently, not to mention regional variations, like áo tứ thân of Kinh Bắc region is different from other áo tứ thân, so those paintings only show one side of a multi-dimensional picture.

Wow thats alot of pictures.

Of course itll only show one side of the picture but you can get a general sense of the style of clothing, especially how similar the dresses are to one another in the paintings. For different classes the designs may be different and headresses etc but the overall look of the clothing style can be seen.

Just like how the ao dai amd ao tu than is different but their overall look is similar like the slits of the long shirt, collar, the way its buttoned, the fabric, size of sleeves etc.



This post has been edited by thumbsUp: Mar 21 2011, 03:53 PM

[papen]

I see. It's indeed Vietnamese clothes. I asked my friend and he said the same

this is a picture about Vietnamese clothing (Viet Phuc), painted in 1714. zh.:日本九州大学文系合同圖書室所藏的《世界人物圖卷》（1714年）上的越南（東京）人。

Some more clothes of the emperors and officers 越服
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%B6%8A%E6%....9B.B8.E5.86.8A

This post has been edited by papen: Mar 21 2011, 04:27 PM

[DOUBLEMINT]

Áo Mệnh Phụ is basically a shirt with a long flowing outer jacket that women in wealthy/elite families wore. It doesn\'t have any definite shape.

Mệnh Phụ = 命婦

Áo Mệnh Phụ obviously changed from dynasty to dynasty and the áo mệnh phụ that Vietnamese know today is from the Nguyen dynasty.

However, not any outer shirt can be called áo mệnh phụ. It has to be long, flowy, often with intricate embroideries, basically it has to signify something different from the common class.


But this one can because it least it seems long and flowy to me


These are áo mệnh phụ of the Nguyen dynasty


Áo Mệnh Phụ of Princess Mỹ Lương

Áo Mệnh Phụ looks very 'vietnamese' to me.AlthoughI do find something very similar in hanfu.Its called "Beizi".

The splits at these dresses are at the waist too,I think.But the fabric makes them look very different from Áo Mệnh Phụ.


This post has been edited by DOUBLEMINT: Mar 21 2011, 08:15 PM

[XigonCongchua]

Beizi might have some influence on it.

[thumbsUp]

Who's this?

Chân dung Trịnh Đình Kiên

http://thoavan4.blogspot.com/2010/09/nhung...t-viet-nam.html


Đặng Tiến Đông (1738-?)


Thầy giáo Trương Văn Hiến
fr:http://donghuongbinhdinh.org/dh.binhdinh/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=957:thy-giao-trng-vn-hin-&catid=3:haokhitayson&Itemid=90


Tác phẩm “Kinh thành Thăng Long thế kỷ XVIII” – sơn dầu 1m40 x 1m60 – tranh phục dựng.


Tác phẩm “Vua Lê vi hành” – tranh phục dựng.
http://www.36phophuong.vn/Phuc-dung-Thang-...3_362_1876.html



Phủ Chúa Trịnh , tranh vẽ thế kỷ XVII


Triều đình vua Lê thế kỷ XVII.
fr:http://linhlinhp.violet.vn/entry/show/cat_id/3539397/entry_id/3936628

This post has been edited by thumbsUp: Mar 22 2011, 12:40 AM

[XigonCongchua]

Those Le-dynasty mandarin clothes are basically similar to Mandarin clothes of the Nguyen dynasty, but the Nguyen dynasty shortened the length of the rob

[thumbsUp]

Those Le-dynasty mandarin clothes are basically similar to Mandarin clothes of the Nguyen dynasty, but the Nguyen dynasty shortened the length of the rob

Sort of and sort of not.

What you're seeing is the outer jacket that's worn over a white underclothing usually
it's a white version of the style of clothing that is worn at the time.

The jacket has a circle cut out on top which reveals the top of what's underneath.

The Nguyen Dynasty reveals that those mandarins are wearing white Ao Dai style clothing underneath
whereas the Le I'm not sure but it seems they're wearing those a white robe type of dress underneath.

But I do agree the Jacket on the outside seems similar but the designs are definitely different.

[XigonCongchua]

Áo dài basically came from those robes. It's obvious. If you get your mind out of the Manchu clothes then you can see the connection much better.

Oh yeah the designs are different but I think it's just something that changed through time.

This post has been edited by XigonCongchua: Mar 22 2011, 01:30 AM

[thumbsUp]

Áo dài basically came from those robes. It's that obvious. If you get your mind out of the Manchu clothes then you can see the connection much better.

?? I'm not thinking about Manchu. I'm just seeing the obvious and comparing what I see with Nguyen and Le. Ao Dai is a long shirt style clothing,
the clothing style before it was Robe styled. That robe style may have evolved into the Ao Dai style but it doesn't make it the same.

I do agree that that outer one piece jacket/shirt thing still remained quite similar though. I didn't deny that. But since
the jackets are similar you have to look at whats different, and I was just stating what I see.

We can connect anything if we thought like that. Details matter and makes a big difference.

Which is why I don't like it when they make drama's like Ve Dat Thang Long with everyone
wearing Ao Dai styled clothing rather than Robe styled. Simply because it's historically
inaccurate.

[XigonCongchua]

There must be some point in history where people invented something called "buttons" and stopped tying their shirts with strings Or there must be some point where people were tired of tying their robes with string and buttoned them instead.





The latter looks much more convenient to me.

This post has been edited by XigonCongchua: Mar 22 2011, 01:36 AM

[thumbsUp]

There must be some point in history where people invented something called "buttons" and stopped tying their shirts with strings





The latter looks much more convenient to me.

Very much so.

The latter seems more modern too. More tight fitting and less loose.
Sleeves, top etc. It seems like the more modern and simplified version of asian clothing.

It's very much like the transformation of European clothing.
Just like Asian clothings, or at least Sino-influenced clothing it went from very loose and decorative to more simple and tight fitting.
It starts becoming more of a one piece shirt.

[XigonCongchua]

It's a good thing though. Áo dài looks better with tight chests









But I prefer loose pants since they flow in the wind


Basically a good áo dài to me should have loose pants, loose sleeves, but tight chests

This post has been edited by XigonCongchua: Mar 22 2011, 02:55 AM

[thumbsUp]

It's a good thing though. Áo dài looks better with tight chests







But I prefer loose pants since they flow in the wind


Basically a good áo dài to me should have loose pants, loose sleeves, but tight chests

This is what I meant. The Ao Dai even kept evolving and became more tighter.

I think in the future it's going to change even more, possibly shorter flaps and tighter pants.
It's just part of the process.

Now I already see girls in Vietnam wearing Ao Dai shirt with jeans or some other tight sort of pants.
It's just part of the changing trends in fashion.

The Ao Dai we have now is already less like it was before. The one you're showing above is not the traditional
Ao Dai. Fabric, style etc have changed. There's no reason that it'll just stop there.

I think for weddings we should use the more traditional loose Ao Dai especially ones that royalty wore. It'll
look more traditional and suitable for the occasion.

I saw some singers and pictures of students wearing Ao Dais like this:






This post has been edited by thumbsUp: Mar 22 2011, 02:04 AM

[DOUBLEMINT]

Are there any ancient paintings or photos about traditional vietnamese wedding?

[XigonCongchua]

Tight-fitting áo dài had come about in the early or mid 1900s. That's pretty long to me. When I speak about something new, I speak of something in the 1990s or 2000s

Look at these pictures, they're basically the same as the "generic" modern áo dài.

Paintings of Hanoi women in 1930



Pictures











Áo dài had evolved a lot but it pretty much keeps its "basic" form since the 1900s, not a lot of dramatic changes. The ones you see with jeans and stuff are only "short-lived" fashions. Just look at the áo dài worn by Vietnamese female teachers, news anchor, air flight attendants etc. They all keep the basic form.

This post has been edited by XigonCongchua: Mar 22 2011, 02:28 AM

[thumbsUp]

Are there any ancient paintings or photos about traditional vietnamese wedding?

Don't think so.
Sadly we have a very small collection of Ancient Paintings, if we can even call it a collection. We might have photos but they're usually quite recent.
Either the government haven't exposed most of them or we simply just lost a bunch of paintings.

If you can find anymore paintings from the Chinese records, please share.

Tight-fitting áo dài had come about in the early or mid 1900s. That's pretty long to me. When I speak about something new, I speak of something in the 1990s or 2000s

Look at these pictures, they're basically the same as the "generic" modern áo dài.
Paintings of Hanoi women in 1930

Áo dài had evolved a lot but it pretty much keeps its "basic" form since the 1900s, not a lot of dramatic changes. The ones you see with jeans and stuff are only "short-lived" fashions. Just look at the áo dài worn by Vietnamese female teachers, news anchor, air flight attendants etc. They all keep the basic form.

I know it's still quite old, but it doesn't change the fact that it's been altered to be more modern.
There's nothing wrong with it. It's just part of it's transformation to fit the lifestyles of a certain time period.
I kinda like how we keep on improving our own traditional dress to fit our modern lifestyles. It's just like how the
Europeans have adjusting their clothing. Now we're all wearing t-shirts but at least in Vietnam we still see
school girls wearing traditional styled clothing.

It may be short lived it may be not. The younger generations will be the ones to see how it changes or how it remains the same.

I'll watch the French Film Indochine and take some snapshots so we can compare.
I think they have Ao Tu Than too.

[XigonCongchua]

Are there any ancient paintings or photos about traditional vietnamese wedding?

These are from Hanoi during French occupation






I also found these, not wedding but some kind of ceremonies










This is funeral

[XigonCongchua]

Folk paintings

Vietnamese female musicians - 18th century


A Phú Xuân girl -18th century


Thạch Sanh - Lý Thông


Other folk paintings






















This post has been edited by XigonCongchua: Mar 22 2011, 03:19 AM

[LonelyKitty]

I love these costumes:

Tien Le Dynasty Costume:

This is one of most fearful emperors in Vietnamese History. Le Long Dinh:

Le Long Dinh Prince:



Acient Le Dynasty Costumes:

This post has been edited by LonelyKitty: Mar 22 2011, 06:12 AM