When did the Khmer adopt the chopsticks as their eating utensils? Options

[preahvihear]

please read the title of the topic before you start going crazy . this post was to educate us about chopsticks in khmer history.

Thank you for your backup and the very nice succint summary. Yeah Sa-Van, why don't you learn to read the topic of the threat, huh? The key word "adopt" already means that the author didn't claim that the Khmer were inventors of the chopsticks. The word "adopt" means "to take up and practice as one's own; to make one's own what in some fashion one owes to another".

[Buddhalove]

Did the Khmer invent "chopsticks"? There is no research up to date, but there are stone carvings on the Angkor Wat galleries showing people in the Khmer Empire eating noodles with chopsticks. When did the Khmer started using chopsticks to eat their noodles? Perhaps as early as the third century A.D because according to the legend of Thon Chey while he was in China he had served the Chinese Emperor the Khmer Nom Banchok (Khmer noodles) to be eating with chopsticks already. When Thon Chey returned to Cambodia, he brought along with him thousands of Chinese immigrants who entered Cambodia in the Third Century AD. So...

Preavihear was suggesting that there is possibility that Thon Chey while he was in China he had served the Chinese Emperor the Khmer Nom Banchok (Khmer noodles) to be eating with chopsticks already.

So he was leading the readers to believe that Khmer might have introduced chopstick to Chinese emperor.

[Viesnabotkampuji...]

Here is a clip of Thon jay in China , when, he served the Chinese emperor nom banh jok with chopsticks. The story was written by my uncle, maybe I can find out from him. As far as 99.99999% khmer always knew that chopsticks were made by Chinese. Thon Jay, himself, proably learnt how to use chopsticks when he was in China,and returned to Cambodia and influenced us. According to history,Chinese came to contact with the Khmer empire many centuries before the fall of the Khmer empire.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KukwoyEN4A

But the Khmer were the first people who invented firework, according to Chau tha Guan , the Chinese embassador( spy ) who came to Cambodia in 1294-1297 . He brought the invention of firework and fire crackers back to China. Also, the model of Angkor wat (one of Chau tha Guan favorite temple ) was sketched in Chinese fashion to make the forbidden kingdom in Beijing.


This post has been edited by Viesnabotkampujia: Mar 6 2010, 11:50 AM

[Mid-Night_Sun]

But the Khmer were the first people who invented firework, according to Chau tha Guan , the Chinese embassador( spy ) who came to Cambodia in 1294-1297 . He brought the invention of firework and fire crackers back to China. Also, the model of Angkor wat (one of Chau tha Guan favorite temple ) was sketched in Chinese fashion to make the forbidden kingdom in Beijing.

thats a cute story.

China had rockets by 1200s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireworks#History


as for that ridiculous Forbidden Kingdom claim...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbidden_City#Symbolism


Symbolism
Imperial roof decoration of highest status on the roof ridge of the Hall of Supreme Harmony

The design of the Forbidden City, from its overall layout to the smallest detail, was meticulously planned to reflect philosophical and religious principles, and above all to symbolise the majesty of Imperial power. Some noted examples of symbolic designs include:

* Yellow is the color of the Emperor. Thus almost all roofs in the Forbidden City bear yellow glazed tiles. There are only two exceptions. The library at the Pavilion of Literary Profundity (文渊阁) had black tiles because black was associated with water, and thus fire-prevention. Similarly, the Crown Prince's residences have green tiles because green was associated with wood, and thus growth.[38]
* The main halls of the Outer and Inner courts are all arranged in groups of three — the shape of the Qian triagram, representing Heaven. The residences of the Inner Court on the other hand are arranged in groups of six — the shape of the Kun triagram, representing the Earth.[11]
* The sloping ridges of building roofs are decorated with a line of statuettes lead by a man riding a phoenix and followed by an imperial dragon. The number of statuettes represents the status of the building — a minor building might have 3 or 5. The Hall of Supreme Harmony has 10, the only building in the country to be permitted this in Imperial times. As a result, its 10th statuette, called a "Hangshi", or "ranked tenth" (Chinese: 行什; pinyin: Hángshí),[50] is also unique in the Forbidden City.[62]
* The layout of buildings follows ancient customs laid down in the Classic of Rites. Thus, ancestral temples are in front of the palace. Storage areas are placed in the front part of the palace complex, and residences in the back.[63]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbidden_City#Influence

Influence
Glazed building decoration

Architecture

The Forbidden City, the culmination of the two-thousand-year development of classical Chinese and East Asian architecture, has been influential in the subsequent development of Chinese architecture, as well as providing inspiration for many modern constructions. Some specific examples include:

* Emperor Gia Long of Vietnam built a palace and fortress that was intended to be a smaller copy of the Chinese Forbidden City in the 1800s. Its ruins are in Huế. In English it is called the "Imperial City". The name of the inner palace complex in Vietnamese is translated literally as "Purple Forbidden City", which is the same as the Chinese name for the Forbidden City in Beijing.

* The 5th Avenue Theatre in Seattle, Washington was designed to incorporate elements of classical Chinese architecture and interior decoration. The ceiling of the auditorium features a dragon panel and chandelier reminiscent of the dragon caisson and Xuanyuan mirror found in the Forbidden City.[73]

This post has been edited by Mid-Night_Sun: Mar 6 2010, 04:34 PM

[preahvihear]

thats a cute story. China had rockets by 1200s.

MNS, you must allow that some of the Chinese cultural elements were in fact OWNED by the people of the Khmer Empire because I think the Chinese sailors "who took up permanent residence in Cambodia, living and marrying with the Khmer women" continued to practice the Chinese cultural elements within the Khmer context. Chinese sailors living in Cambodia at the time were not allowed to return to their ancestral land of China because according to the Chinese law at the time, those Chinese sailors were considered to be traitors to the homeland.

[Mid-Night_Sun]

MNS, you must allow that some of the Chinese cultural elements were in fact OWNED by the people of the Khmer Empire because I think the Chinese sailors "who took up permanent residence in Cambodia, living and marrying with the Khmer women" continued to practice the Chinese cultural elements within the Khmer context. Chinese sailors living in Cambodia at the time were not allowed to return to their ancestral land of China because according to the Chinese law at the time, those Chinese sailors were considered to be traitors to the homeland.

and that supports those hilarious claims how?

[preahvihear]

and that supports those hilarious claims how?

Read it for yourself then:

A CHINESE COURT OFFICIAL’S VISIT TO THE KHMER EMPIRE By Michelle Vachon – The Cambodia Daily

Phnom Penh, Cambodia - In 1295, a young Chinese diplomat by the name of Zhou Daguan left the port of Mingzhou in southeast China, bound for Angkor as part of an official Chinese delegation. Little is known of Zhou Daguan — even his name would vary in docu¬ments after his death — except for the fact that he took copious notes on life in the Khmer kingdom dur¬ing his 11 month stay, which were probably kept for an official report but later turned into a book.

"A Record of Cambodia: Its Land and its People" by Zhou Daguan. Translated by Peter Harris.

Zhou Daguan’s observations of Angkor ended up being the only remaining record on daily life and cus¬toms at the Khmer citadel.

According to his writing, the Chinese delegation was sent by Emperor Temur Oljeytu Khan to deliver an edict to Khmer King Indravarman III. The diplomats arrived in the Angkorian capital, then called Yasodharapura, in 1296 and returned home in 1297.

In the Khmer capital, gold was everywhere. In the cen¬ter of the walled city of Angkor Thorn, Zhou Daguan writes, “is a gold tower [Bayon], flanked by 20 or so stone towers and a hundred or so stone chambers. To the east of it is a golden bridge flanked by two gold lions, one on the left and one on the right. Eight gold Buddhas are laid out in a row at the lowest level of stone chambers.”
He goes on to write about a bronze tower — today’s Baphuon temple; a gold tower in which sleeps the king, now known as Phimeanakas; and a gold tower with a gold lion, a bronze elephant, a bronze cow and a bronze horse, which is now called as Neak Pean temple.

“I suppose all this explains why from the start there have been merchant seamen who speak glowingly about ‘rich, noble Cambodia,’” he wrote.

The young Chinese diplomat described all aspects of life and customs at Angkor, from the New Year celebrations during which the king lighted fireworks and firecrackers, and ways of settling disputes, to health and illnesses, agriculture and trade, flora and fauna, slavery and funerary rites.

[Mid-Night_Sun]

The young Chinese diplomat described all aspects of life and customs at Angkor, from the New Year celebrations during which the king lighted fireworks and firecrackers, and ways of settling disputes, to health and illnesses, agriculture and trade, flora and fauna, slavery and funerary rites.

so what? did you even read what the other guy wrote?

But the Khmer were the first people who invented firework, according to Chau tha Guan , the Chinese embassador( spy ) who came to Cambodia in 1294-1297

the funny thing is your source (which is supposed to be a direct translation) doesnt even support what he said.

[preahvihear]

Preavihear was suggesting that there is possibility that Thon Chey while he was in China he had served the Chinese Emperor the Khmer Nom Banchok (Khmer noodles) to be eaten with chopsticks already. So he was leading the readers to believe that Khmer might have introduced chopstick to Chinese emperor.

NO. Stop misleading the readers and putting words in my mouth. I have never SUGGESTED anything of the sort. I clearly said this though and here is the quote of the original post:

When did the Khmer started using chopsticks to eat their noodles? Perhaps as early as the third century A.D because according to the legend of Thon Chey while he was in China he had served the Chinese Emperor the Khmer Nom Banchok (Khmer noodles) to be eating with chopsticks already. When Thon Chey returned to Cambodia, he brought along with him thousands of Chinese immigrants who entered Cambodia in the Third Century AD. So...

So let me connect the dots for you: Hahah. Khmer started using chopsticks in the 3rd century and the Chinese entered Cambodia in the 3rd Century. Now do you see the connection or not? In addition, the Chinese don't ever squeeze their noodlle flour. Hahha. The Khmer on the opposite sqeeze their noodle flour instead. In fact the Persians claim that they were the ones to originate the noodles. The Italians eat their sphagetti without using the chopsticks. So I don't know. All I am saying is that if the Khmer borrowed the chopsticks from the Chinese then they would probably be using the Chinese term for them, but on the contrary they didn't. There are many Chinese loanwords in the Khmer language so how come the Khmer didn't borrow the Chinese term for the chopsticks since the Chinese were the originators of the chopsticks long way before the 3rd century. I don't know....debate continues....

[Viesnabotkampuji...]

as far as chopsticks and papers , i don't know, but fire work was khmer inventioned. And I repeated ,that, the model of the forbidden kingdom was remodified into Chinese architect by Chau tha Guan when he returned to China. He wrote that during his round trip to the Empire of Cambodia-China. He even metioned khmer women were like whore,because, they swam naked and walked bare breasts, even the queen etc... unlike the Chinese who covered themselves from toe to neck. If you think about it the way khmer people dressed durinign the height of the Khmer empir, they were much more civilize than those of Europe today.

This post has been edited by Viesnabotkampujia: Mar 6 2010, 05:41 PM

[Mid-Night_Sun]

as far as chopsticks and papers , i don't know, but fire work was khmer inventioned. And I repeated ,that, the model of the forbidden kingdom was remodified into Chinese architect by Chau tha Guan when he returned to China. He wrote that during his round trip to the Empire of Cambodia-China. He even metioned khmer women were like whore,because, they swam naked and walked bare breasts, even the queen etc... unlike the Chinese who covered themselves from toe to neck. If you think about it the way khmer people dressed durinign the height of the Khmer empir, they were much more civilize than those of Europe today.

no they werent. China had fireworks 600 years before he even went to you guys.

Chau was Ambassador for Yuan Dynasty. Ming built the Forbidden City you clown.




LOL modeled after Angkor? so is the CN tower i guess?

This post has been edited by Mid-Night_Sun: Mar 6 2010, 06:03 PM

[Viesnabotkampuji...]

no they werent. China had fireworks 600 years before he even went to you guys.

Chau was Ambassador for Yuan Dynasty. Ming built the Forbidden City you clown.




LOL modeled after Angkor? so is the CN tower i guess?

all right, i'll do my research again. If im wrong i appologize,and this is what I got. China did not have firework until the 12th century, and Chau Tha Guan came to the Khmer Epire in the 12 century....hhmmmmmmmmmmmm


"Fireworks were invented in ancient China in the 12th century to scare away evil spirits, as a natural extension of the Chinese invention of gunpowder. Such important events and festivities as Chinese New Year and the Mid-Autumn Moon Festival were and still are times when fireworks are guaranteed sights. China is the largest manufacturer and exporter of fireworks in the world.

"Fireworks are generally classified as to where they perform, either as a ground or aerial firework. In the latter case they may provide their own propulsion (skyrocket) or be shot into the air by a mortar (aerial shell).

The most common feature of fireworks is a paper or pasteboard tube or casing filled with the combustible material, often pyrotechnic stars. A number of these tubes or cases are often combined so as to make, when kindled, a great variety of sparkling shapes, often variously colored. The skyrocket is a common form of firework, although the first skyrockets were used in war. The aerial shell, however, is the backbone of today's commercial aerial display, and a smaller version for consumer use is known as the festival ball in the United States. Such rocket technology has also been used for the delivery of mail by rocket and is used as propulsion for most model rockets."

This post has been edited by Viesnabotkampujia: Mar 6 2010, 06:09 PM

[Guyer]

no they werent. China had fireworks 600 years before he even went to you guys.

Chau was Ambassador for Yuan Dynasty. Ming built the Forbidden City you clown.




LOL modeled after Angkor? so is the CN tower i guess?

Japanese interpertation of Angkor Wat drawn in the 1600's.


Looks like the Forbidden City to me!

[Guyer]

as far as chopsticks and papers , i don't know, but fire work was khmer inventioned. And I repeated ,that, the model of the forbidden kingdom was remodified into Chinese architect by Chau tha Guan when he returned to China. He wrote that during his round trip to the Empire of Cambodia-China. He even metioned khmer women were like whore,because, they swam naked and walked bare breasts, even the queen etc... unlike the Chinese who covered themselves from toe to neck. If you think about it the way khmer people dressed durinign the height of the Khmer empir, they were much more civilize than those of Europe today.

That's what I thought after seeing satellite images and the master floor-plan of the Forbidden City. Both Angkor Wat and the Forbidden City have very similar floor-plan except that the Khmers built Angkor Wat during the Angkorean period well before the Chinese built the Forbidden City during the Ming Dynasty.

This post has been edited by Guyer: Mar 6 2010, 06:16 PM

[Mid-Night_Sun]

all right, i'll do my research again. If im wrong i appologize,and this is what I got. China did not have firework until the 12th century, and Chau Tha Guan came to the Khmer Epire in the 12 century....hhmmmmmmmmmmmm


Fireworks were invented in ancient China in the 12th century to scare away evil spirits, as a natural extension of the Chinese invention of gunpowder. Such important events and festivities as Chinese New Year and the Mid-Autumn Moon Festival were and still are times when fireworks are guaranteed sights. China is the largest manufacturer and exporter of fireworks in the world.

Fireworks are generally classified as to where they perform, either as a ground or aerial firework. In the latter case they may provide their own propulsion (skyrocket) or be shot into the air by a mortar (aerial shell).

The most common feature of fireworks is a paper or pasteboard tube or casing filled with the combustible material, often pyrotechnic stars. A number of these tubes or cases are often combined so as to make, when kindled, a great variety of sparkling shapes, often variously colored. The skyrocket is a common form of firework, although the first skyrockets were used in war. The aerial shell, however, is the backbone of today's commercial aerial display, and a smaller version for consumer use is known as the festival ball in the United States. Such rocket technology has also been used for the delivery of mail by rocket and is used as propulsion for most model rockets."

Fireworks originated in China some 2,000 years ago. The most prevalent legend has it that fireworks were discovered or invented by accident by a Chinese cook working in a field kitchen who happened to mix charcoal, sulphur and saltpeter (all commonly found in the kitchen in those days).

Some sources say that the discovery of fireworks occurred about 2,000 years ago, and other sources place the discovery sometime during the 9th century during the Song dynasty (960-1279), although this could be confusion between the discovery of gunpowder by the cook and the invention of the firecracker.

http://www.fireworks.com/safety/fireworks-history.asp


According to scholars, fireworks were discovered completely by accident in ancient China in the second century BC. Legend holds that while cooking, someone inadvertently dropped saltpeter (a form of salt still used in China today) into a cooking fire, which produced a colorful, curious flame. This "mistake" would later lead to the invention of the firecracker.

http://www.allsands.com/History/Objects/fi...stor_req_gn.htm


The discovery of fireworks, or namely the formulation of gunpowder is believed to have occurred by chance approximately 2,000 years ago in China. These were heated over a fire and dried to give a black flaky powder which burned with a loud bang when ignited. This crude, early mixture has come to be known in our modern world today as gun powder.

The Chinese named this fascinating black powder "huo yao" ("Fire Chemical") and developed it further. The mixture was inserted into the hollow of a bamboo stick and when thrown into a fire, the gases produced by the ignited burning powder inside caused an immense build up of pressure and blasted the tube apart. The basic fire cracker was born.

http://www.ch.ic.ac.uk/local/projects/gondhia/history.html



is that what you call research? not to mention nothing you quoted even mentions Angkor. please stop your wishful thinking. its pretty disgusting.

[Viesnabotkampuji...]

Japanese interpertation of Angkor Wat drawn in the 1600's.


Looks like the Forbidden City to me!

Therer was another one from french in late 1800, Chu Tha Guan in the 12th century, and the Spaniard and the Japanese in the 1600s.

[Viesnabotkampuji...]

Fireworks originated in China some 2,000 years ago. The most prevalent legend has it that fireworks were discovered or invented by accident by a Chinese cook working in a field kitchen who happened to mix charcoal, sulphur and saltpeter (all commonly found in the kitchen in those days).

Some sources say that the discovery of fireworks occurred about 2,000 years ago, and other sources place the discovery sometime during the 9th century during the Song dynasty (960-1279), although this could be confusion between the discovery of gunpowder by the cook and the invention of the firecracker.

http://www.fireworks.com/safety/fireworks-history.asp


According to scholars, fireworks were discovered completely by accident in ancient China in the second century BC. Legend holds that while cooking, someone inadvertently dropped saltpeter (a form of salt still used in China today) into a cooking fire, which produced a colorful, curious flame. This "mistake" would later lead to the invention of the firecracker.

http://www.allsands.com/History/Objects/fi...stor_req_gn.htm


The discovery of fireworks, or namely the formulation of gunpowder is believed to have occurred by chance approximately 2,000 years ago in China. These were heated over a fire and dried to give a black flaky powder which burned with a loud bang when ignited. This crude, early mixture has come to be known in our modern world today as gun powder.

The Chinese named this fascinating black powder "huo yao" ("Fire Chemical") and developed it further. The mixture was inserted into the hollow of a bamboo stick and when thrown into a fire, the gases produced by the ignited burning powder inside caused an immense build up of pressure and blasted the tube apart. The basic fire cracker was born.

http://www.ch.ic.ac.uk/local/projects/gondhia/history.html



is that what you call research? not to mention nothing you quoted even mentions Angkor. please stop your wishful thinking. its pretty disgusting.

hMMMMMM , i just wish i hadnt thrown away my old history book between china and Khmer empire. I'll let you win because my proof of what I learnt from history book of Chau tha Guan was missing. I admitted that I lost for now until I'll collect my datas to proof it to you.

[Guyer]

The Forbidden City.



Angkor Wat.


How Angkor Wat would have looked like when the Chinese ambassador visited the Khmer Empire during the Yuan Dynasty.


This post has been edited by Guyer: Mar 6 2010, 06:22 PM

[Mid-Night_Sun]

The Forbidden City.



Angkor Wat.


How Angkor Wat would have looked like when the Chinese ambassador visited the Khmer Empire during the Yuan Dynasty.

hahahahahaha.....why bother. someones blind. even the most basic shape is wrong LOL.

This post has been edited by Mid-Night_Sun: Mar 6 2010, 06:26 PM

[Darkblade]

NO. Stop misleading the readers and putting words in my mouth. I have never SUGGESTED anything of the sort. I clearly said this though and here is the quote of the original post:



So let me connect the dots for you: Hahah. Khmer started using chopsticks in the 3rd century and the Chinese entered Cambodia in the 3rd Century. Now do you see the connection or not? In addition, the Chinese don't ever squeeze their noodlle flour. Hahha. The Khmer on the opposite sqeeze their noodle flour instead. In fact the Persians claim that they were the ones to originate the noodles. The Italians eat their sphagetti without using the chopsticks. So I don't know. All I am saying is that if the Khmer borrowed the chopsticks from the Chinese then they would probably be using the Chinese term for them, but on the contrary they didn't. There are many Chinese loanwords in the Khmer language so how come the Khmer didn't borrow the Chinese term for the chopsticks since the Chinese were the originators of the chopsticks long way before the 3rd century. I don't know....debate continues....

The korean and the japanese didnt adopt the chinese word too, how come ? Maybe because they have different language ? Japanese and Korean didnt use chinese characters until 5-7th century. Surprise ? I don't think so.