INSULTING ISLAM THROUGH IGNORANCE, CLARIFYING THE TRUTH ABOUT THE QURAN AND HADITHS Options

[yiming2000]

It is about Islam and Muslims are the believers of Islam. There are no Muslims here, atleast none that talk to Elle, to defend or agree with Elle's theory. Would be fair to let them have their say to right? Am sure educated Muslims looked at certain verses too and questioned why they are there. Just like Christians who looked at certain stories out of the bible and questioned why they are there. Like why did god kill all the innocent children in Sodom and Gomorra or all the children and wives of Job?

Do you think people are inherently good or bad?
Do you feel that people are bad despite their religious beliefs or because of them?

[elleX0]

Do you think people are inherently good or bad?
Do you feel that people are bad despite their religious beliefs or because of them?

What a ridiculous question. Of course a Muslim is a good Muslim if he sacrifices his life for the good of Islam like those martyrs that blew up the Twin towers in New York. They were Muslim Martyrs attacking decadent and corrupt American Capitalists, and they will be rewarded by Allah in Paradise. But from the American point of view, they were bad because they killed innocent American lives without provocation, and their souls deserves to burn in Hell.
So it depends on how you look at it, from the Islamic perspective or from the non-Islamic perspective.

This post has been edited by elleX0: Jun 21 2011, 02:56 PM

[DEL]

Do you think people are inherently good or bad?
Do you feel that people are bad despite their religious beliefs or because of them?

Bad. Humans lean to the bad side.
We are like a book that stands, but it leans more to one side. The bad side. It takes effort to fall (make a decision) on the other side, the good side.

It is easier to deny your fault with a lie, than to admit to it.

Not-religious people have proved that they can be bad as well. Religion can have both effects. It has guidelines to show you how to be good and there are things that can be wrongly interpreted to do bad. Also, it is about their way of life. People will respond emotionally to any criticism or when under pressure and sometimes lash out violently.

For example, weakminded will believe in the post of Elle. That they should kill themselves, like some Hadiths may incline. But you will find in the Quran and Hadiths that killing yourself and killing others is bad and you will go to hell for that.

[Jarhier]

yeah, worshipping was the wrong word. But they do acknowledge Jesus as a messenger of god.

These differences are there, because if not, they wont be able to get followers to support their political agenda of whoever their religious leader is. And all those religions kinda have the same message. Submit and obey god, tolerate others, god will be the judge of all. The stories are different and some talk of other god or even several gods. But it could be just the same god. If my god told me the others that dont believe in a certain religion are wrong and will be annihilated because of that, i think he sucks and wont serve him. If there is any god, he will judge us by nature, not by what our religion or race is.

Islam rejects the message of Jesus so they are not acknowledging Biblical Jesus - His message of death and resurrection. That's the center of Christianity faith. Islam and Christianity say complete opposite things of who represents God.

(Quran 4:156) “They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did.”

(1 Corinthians 15:16-17) "For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins."

Differences are essential. If god doesn't have a son, why would he lie before? If god does have a son, why would he say something totally opposite later? If they are all same god, at least there should be harmony in their message, but it's all confusion and disputes. Maybe you are thinking of Universalism. Anyway you can crash course on these 3 religions by looking at their conversion requirements and have better understanding of their major differences.

You are Christan, do you think the others are wrong for believing what they do? And i talk about the peaceful good ones ofcourse. Or is your religion the only right one?

My religious conviction and my tolerance towards other religions are two separate things. Like I said in my past posts, I don't believe all Muslims are vent on killing everyone. I made that clear on elleX0's accusations towards 2 billion Muslims many times.

[yiming2000]

Bad. Humans lean to the bad side.

Humans have a savage history. We have jails that lock us up, laws that restrain us.
Our religions are testimonies to our evil nature. They threaten us with the misery of
eternal hell should we fail to resist our natural urge to persecute and harm one another.

You say we are bad but how come you feel you are a good guy in this bad world?
(I am not being sarcastic. Look at elle. He sees himself as a good guy.)

[elleX0]

Well, i suppose they teach it there. Anyone is welcome to have questions and they will try to answer. I mean, without asking questions, they cant learn. Without learning, no one will convert. :s

Anyways, here, because you asked so nicely.

http://www.gawaher.com/ They even have a subforum for you.
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/index.php
http://islamicboard.com/
http://www.ummah.com/forum/
http://www.islam.com/discussion.asp
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam-dir/

Just a simple google search.

Anyways, if you try this. Remember it is their way of life you talk about. People will take offense if you question their way of life and if you overwhelm them with critical posts. So take a humble approach. Pretend you question your own theory and if they say its right, you are right. Dont overwhelm, but start slowly. I will probably get fried there too if i talk like i do with you.

Thank you for those links. I will select one or two to participate in and I will let you know how it turns out. I have signed up to two today. I bet I get on better than you do.

This post has been edited by elleX0: Jun 22 2011, 03:47 AM

[yiming2000]

What a ridiculous question. Of course a Muslim is a good Muslim if he sacrifices his life for the good of Islam like those martyrs that blew up the Twin towers in New York. They were Muslim Martyrs attacking decadent and corrupt American Capitalists, and they will be rewarded by Allah in Paradise. But from the American point of view, they were bad because they killed innocent American lives without provocation, and their souls deserves to burn in Hell.
So it depends on how you look at it, from the Islamic perspective or from the non-Islamic perspective.

Why are you fixated on the muslim like a mongoose fixated on the cobra?
I am asking whether you are inherently good or bad?

People are driven by evil to do bad things to other people.
Focus on evil not people.

[elleX0]

Why are you fixated on the muslim like a mongoose fixated on the cobra?
I am asking whether you are inherently good or bad?

People are driven by evil to do bad things to other people.
Focus on evil not people.

Because Islam is the biggest threat to human civilisation. if you will pull your head out of the sand to see and recognise.

[yiming2000]

Because Islam is the biggest threat to human civilisation. if you will pull your head out of the sand to see and recognise.

All I see are people and their natural predisposition to be evil. Satan creates images for you to see and influence you to perceive Islam as a threat. You are possessed by Satan who fills your heart with evil and intoxicates your mind with fear.
Jesus said, violence begets violence. This is how evil seeps from one human to another. Strike me with your hatred, and I
will turn the other cheek. May Allah be with you.

[chutzpah]

All I see are people and their natural predisposition to be evil. Satan creates images for you to see and influence you to perceive Islam as a threat. You are possessed by Satan who fills your heart with evil and intoxicates your mind with fear.
Jesus said, violence begets violence. This is how evil seeps from one human to another. Strike me with your hatred, and I
will turn the other cheek. May Allah be with you.

1. Then you believe in the existance of Satan?
2. Do you think the way people are taught has nothing to do with their predisposition?

[yiming2000]

1. Then you believe in the existance of Satan?

It is not a matter of belief. I know for a fact Satan exists.
It is not the guy with the horns and pointed tail holding a pitchfork.
It is pure unadulterated evil. And that evil manifests in terrifying human behavior.

2. Do you think the way people are taught has nothing to do with their predisposition?

No. We are predisposed to be bad. All our teachings purportedly based on good aspirations are rooted in evil.

[chutzpah]

Chutzpah, I have given up any hope of intelligent discussions with some people here. Some people speak from the wrong orifice.

yea most are more interested in point scoring instead of proper discourse. They are also quick to resort to insult and expletives.

It is not a matter of belief. I know for a fact Satan exists.
It is not the guy with the horns and pointed tail holding a pitchfork.
It is pure unadulterated evil. And that evil manifests in terrifying human behavior.

No. We are predisposed to be bad. All our teachings purportedly based on good aspirations are rooted in evil.

Why do you say that? Do you go through life thinking everyone is essentially bad and out to get you? If so Why, by that I mean what makes you this way?


This post has been edited by chutzpah: Jun 24 2011, 03:21 AM

[chutzpah]

Cite me one instance where Jesus used scriptures in his teaching.

Jesus often taught from scriptures, in fact as a Jew, Jesus respect the scriptures which in his time is the Old Testament.

One of Jesus' strongest statements concerning the Old Testament Law was His affirmation that heaven and earth would pass away before even the smallest portion of a letter (Matt. 5:17-18). Jesus also taught that these fractions of letters would never fail (Luke 16:17). Further, after citing a particular text in Psalm 82:6, Jesus stated that Scripture could not be nullified (John 10:35). These comments are striking reminders regarding the extent to which Jesus thought Scripture spoke the truth.

Regularly, Jesus also demonstrated His trust in the Old Testament by utilizing it as His source for solving theological dis­putes. On more than one occasion, His argument turned chiefly on the significance of a single word in the text. In Mark 12:35-37, Jesus based an important theological point on the second usage of the word "Lord," arguing that the Messiah was more than just the son of David. In the English text of Matthew 22:31-32, Jesus built His case against the Sadducees on the word "am" in order to teach the doctrine of the resurrection of the body, which they rejected. Such confidence in the very words of Scripture is a cru­cial indication of Jesus' high view of their truth.6

On many other occasions, Jesus cited Scripture as a "proof text" while debating His adversaries. During the wilderness temptation, Jesus quoted Old Testament texts in opposition to Satan (Matt. 4:4, 7, 10). Elsewhere, Jesus responded to His detractors by asking them, "Have you not read. . . ?"7 "It is writ­ten. ...", or a similar comment, also served to refute an opposing view.8 In Matthew 22:29, Jesus remarked that an ignorance of Scripture caused the Sadducees to a make a theological error. It seems clear from these uses of Scripture that Jesus considered its contents to be the definitive authority in solving theological issues.

In yet another debate with Jewish leaders, after citing por­tions of the Law and prophets, Jesus appears to refer to the entire Old Testament as the "commandment of God" and "the word of God" (Mk. 7:8-13). Such descriptions indicate that Jesus thought that God was the Authority behind Scripture. It was an inspired text, written for our edification. As such, these writings must be fulfilled (Matt. 26:54; Luke 4:21; John 7:38). Jesus used the Old Testament as a proof text that serves as God's blueprint for cor­rect theology and behavior. It disproved contrary positions. Jesus did not doubt this authority.

Jesus referred to the entire Old Testament both as the Law and the prophets (Matt. 5:17), as well as adding the Psalms (Luke 24:44). By either designation, Jesus indicated that each section was the Word of God. Moses, the author of the Law (Luke 16:31; 24:44), spoke God's words in Exodus 3:6 (Mk. 12:26). David wrote by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in Psalm 110:1 (Mark 12:36). The prophets also spoke God's words because their prophecies of the Christ had to be fulfilled (Luke 24:27, 44).

Taken from garyhabermas.com

[yiming2000]

Jesus often taught from scriptures, in fact as a Jew, Jesus respect the scriptures which in his time is the Old Testament.

Gary Habemas' arguments are not convincing. Let's use our heads and think for ourselves instead of letting others
think for us. If Jesus taught from Jewish scriptures, he would have been a regular rabbi of the times and not singled out for cruxifixion. Jesus criticized the blind following of scriptures and paid for it with his life.

[DEL]

Islam rejects the message of Jesus so they are not acknowledging Biblical Jesus - His message of death and resurrection. That's the center of Christianity faith. Islam and Christianity say complete opposite things of who represents God.

(Quran 4:156) “They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did.”

(1 Corinthians 15:16-17) "For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins."

Differences are essential. If god doesn't have a son, why would he lie before? If god does have a son, why would he say something totally opposite later? If they are all same god, at least there should be harmony in their message, but it's all confusion and disputes. Maybe you are thinking of Universalism. Anyway you can crash course on these 3 religions by looking at their conversion requirements and have better understanding of their major differences.

They don't accept the biblical explanation, but they still believe in the same person. Namely, Jesus, the messenger of god. They don't believe in trinity, because if god sends himself to earth, he isnt omnipotent.

It could be very much the same god. In the old bible, torah and Qu'ran they all use the same word to describe god. And you seem to forget two players. Satan and the sinful humans. Both can corrupt, hence why there are different stories, hence why there is no harmony in the world.
Satan wants us to be separated and oppose eachother and he uses the corrupt human mind, preferably a leader, to reach that. And humans sin with ease, because they are full of desire. Good thing all those religions contain the same good messages.

My religious conviction and my tolerance towards other religions are two separate things. Like I said in my past posts, I don't believe all Muslims are vent on killing everyone. I made that clear on elleX0's accusations towards 2 billion Muslims many times.

i ask you this. There is a good Muslim and a good Christian. They both do the same good acts. Who goes to heaven? Don't say only god knows, what do you think he will do?

Humans have a savage history. We have jails that lock us up, laws that restrain us.
Our religions are testimonies to our evil nature. They threaten us with the misery of
eternal hell should we fail to resist our natural urge to persecute and harm one another.

You say we are bad but how come you feel you are a good guy in this bad world?
(I am not being sarcastic. Look at elle. He sees himself as a good guy.)

I can't know for sure i am good, but i think i am on the right way. Elle thinks Islam is like a cancer and i defend the muslims. I am very sure that guy never spoke to a Muslim. He really really never did. He never went to a mosque. He can't speak Arabic. And he calls himself an expert.

[Jarhier]

It could be very much the same god. In the old bible, torah and Qu'ran they all use the same word to describe god.

Old testament was written in Hebrew (NT in Greek) and His name is Yahweh(Jehovah) - translated 'I Am Who I Am'. God revealed His name to Moses - "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” “I AM WHO I AM,” and He said, “You shall tell the children of Israel this: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” God is a pretty general word describing a supreme being. It doesn't mean anyone's god could be Zeus or Thor. And it is said that Arab Christians use Allah al-Ab (God the Father) to differentiate from Islamic god. Islam's Allah has 99 names but that specific name is not there. Even Jesus claimed His divinity by saying "Before Abraham existed, I Am." And Jews crucified Him for blasphemy.

1. Allah
2. The Compassionate (al-Rahman)
3. The Merciful (al-Rahim)
4. The King/Sovereign (al-Malik)
5. The Holy (al-Quddus)
6. The Source of Peace (al-Salam)
7. The Giver of Faith (al-Mu'min)
8. The Overall Protector (al-Muhaimin)
9. The Strong (al-`Aziz)
10. The Almighty (al-Jabbar)
11. The Majestic (al-Mutakabbir)
12. The Creator (al-Khaliq)
13. The Maker (al-Bari')
14. The Fashioner (al-Musawwir)
15. The Great Forgiver (al-Ghaffar)
16. The Dominant (al-Qahhar)
17. The Bestower (al-Wahhab)
18. The Provider (al-Razzaq)
19. The Opener, The Reliever (al-Fattah)
20. The All-Knowing (al-`Alim)
21. The Restrainer, The Withholder (al-Qabid)
22. The Extender (al-Basit)
23. The Humbler (al-Khafid)
24. The Exalter (al-Rafi`)
25. The Empowerer (al-Mu`izz)
26. The Humiliator (al-Mudhill)
27. The All-Hearing, The Hearer (al-Sami`)
28. The All-Seeing (al-Basir)
29. The Judge (al-Hakam)
30. The Just (al-`Adl)
31. The Kindly One (al-Latif)
32. The Gracious, The Aware (al-Khabir)
33. The Clement, The Forbearing (al-Halim)
34. The Mighty (al-`Azim)
35. The Forgiving (al-Ghafur)
36. The Grateful, The Appreciative (al-Shakur)
37. The High, The Sublime (al-`Aliyy)
38. The Great (al-Kabir)
39. The Preserver (al-Hafiz)
40. The Protector, The Guardian, The Feeder, The Sustainer (al-Muqit)
41. The Reckoner (al-Hasib)
42. The Sublime One (al-Jali)
43. The Bountiful, The Gracious (al-Karim)
44. The Watcher, The Watchful (al-Raqib)
45. The Responsive, The Hearkener (al-Mujib)
46. The Infinite, The All-Embracing (al-Wasi`)
47. The Wise (al-Hakim al-Mutlaq)
48. The Loving (al-Wadud)
49. The Glorious (al-Majid)
50. The Resurrector (al-Ba`ith)
51. The Witness (al-Shahid)
52. The True (al-Haqq)
53. The Advocate (al-Wakil)
54. The Most Strong (al-Qawiyy)
55. The Firm (al-Matin)
56. The Patron (al-Waliyy)
57. The Praiseworthy (al-Hamid)
58. The Numberer (al-Muhsi)
59. The Commencer (al-Mubdi)
60. The Restorer (al-Mu`id)
61. The Giver of Life (al-Muhyi)
62. The One Who Gives Death (al-Mumit)
63. The Living One (al-Hayy)
64. The Self-Subsisting (al-Qayyum)
65. The Perceiver (al-Wajid)
66. The One (al-Wahid)
67. The Independent (al-Samad)
68. The Powerful (al-Qadir)
69. The Dominant (al-Muqtadir)
70. The Giver (al-Muqaddim)
71. The Retarder (al-Mu'akhkhir)
72. The First (al-Awwal)
73. The Last (al-Akhir)
74. The Manifest (al-Zahir)
75. The Hidden (al-Batin)
76. The Governor (al-Wali)
77. The High Exalted (al-Muta`ali)
78. The Righteous (al-Barr)
79. The Relenting (al-Tawwab)
80. The Forgiver (al-`Afuww)
81. The Avenger (al-Muntaquim)
82. The Compassionate (al-Ra'uf)
83. The Ruler of the Kingdom (Malik al-Mulk)
84. The Lord of Majesty and Bounty (Dhu'l-Jalal wa'l-Ikram)
85. The Equitable (al-Muqsit)
86. The Gatherer, The Collector (al-Jami`)
87. The Self-Sufficient (al-Ghani)
88. The Enricher (al-Mughni)
89. The Bestower (al-Mu`ti)
90. The Withholder (al-Mani`)
91. The Propitious (al-Nafi`)
92. The Distresser (al-Darr)
93. The Light (al-Nur)
94. The Guide (al-Hadi)
95. The Eternal (al-Azali)
96. The Everlasting (al-Baqi)
97. The Heir (al-Warith)
98. The Guide to the Right Path (al-Rashid)
99. The Patient (al-Sabur)

i ask you this. There is a good Muslim and a good Christian. They both do the same good acts. Who goes to heaven? Don't say only god knows, what do you think he will do?

Christianity is salvation by faith. God doesn't save people based on their good works. By God's standard, to be a good and righteous person on his own merit, he has to keep all the 613 law of Moses (including 10 commandments) without ever breaking any of them - 'Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.' And all the people shall say, 'Amen.' - Deut 27:26. And Jesus also said..if you only think about killing someone, you have committed a murder in God's sight.

(Romans 8:3) "The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin's control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins."

Islam is salvation by works but only for Muslims. They have no guarantee in salvation, only if you are a good Muslim who prays 5 times a day I guess. Maybe this is where you drew your idea about God and asking me this question about good Muslim and good Christian?

"Then those whose balance (of good deeds) is heavy, they will be successful. But those whose balance is light, will be those who have lost their souls; in hell will they abide," (23:102-103).

But unbelievers go to hell anyway, and they count Christians and Jews as unbelievers so further to point out Islam doesn't worship the same God of Bible.

“Surely, the disbelievers will be in the torment of Hell to abide therein forever. (The torment) will not be lightened for them, and they will be plunged into destruction with deep regrets, sorrows and in despair therein. We wronged them not, but they were the wrongdoers. And they will cry: ‘O Malik! Let your Lord make an end of us’ He will say: ‘Surely, you shall abide forever.’ Indeed We have brought the truth to you, but most of you have a hatred for the truth” (Quran 43:74-78)

(9:30-33) "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they! They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no god save Him. Be He glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)! Fain would they put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah disdaineth (aught) save that He shall perfect His light, however much the disbelievers are averse. He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse."

This post has been edited by Jarhier: Jun 24 2011, 09:32 PM

[tangawizi]

Old testament was written in Hebrew (NT in Greek) and His name is Yahweh(Jehovah) - translated 'I Am Who I Am'. God revealed His name to Moses - "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” “I AM WHO I AM,” and He said, “You shall tell the children of Israel this: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” God is a pretty general word describing a supreme being. It doesn't mean anyone's god could be Zeus or Thor. And it is said that Arab Christians use Allah al-Ab (God the Father) to differentiate from Islamic god. Islam's Allah has 99 names but that specific name is not there. Even Jesus claimed His divinity by saying "Before Abraham existed, I Am." And Jews crucified Him for blasphemy.

1. Allah
2. The Compassionate (al-Rahman)
3. The Merciful (al-Rahim)
4. The King/Sovereign (al-Malik)
5. The Holy (al-Quddus)
6. The Source of Peace (al-Salam)
7. The Giver of Faith (al-Mu'min)
8. The Overall Protector (al-Muhaimin)
9. The Strong (al-`Aziz)
10. The Almighty (al-Jabbar)
11. The Majestic (al-Mutakabbir)
12. The Creator (al-Khaliq)
13. The Maker (al-Bari')
14. The Fashioner (al-Musawwir)
15. The Great Forgiver (al-Ghaffar)
16. The Dominant (al-Qahhar)
17. The Bestower (al-Wahhab)
18. The Provider (al-Razzaq)
19. The Opener, The Reliever (al-Fattah)
20. The All-Knowing (al-`Alim)
21. The Restrainer, The Withholder (al-Qabid)
22. The Extender (al-Basit)
23. The Humbler (al-Khafid)
24. The Exalter (al-Rafi`)
25. The Empowerer (al-Mu`izz)
26. The Humiliator (al-Mudhill)
27. The All-Hearing, The Hearer (al-Sami`)
28. The All-Seeing (al-Basir)
29. The Judge (al-Hakam)
30. The Just (al-`Adl)
31. The Kindly One (al-Latif)
32. The Gracious, The Aware (al-Khabir)
33. The Clement, The Forbearing (al-Halim)
34. The Mighty (al-`Azim)
35. The Forgiving (al-Ghafur)
36. The Grateful, The Appreciative (al-Shakur)
37. The High, The Sublime (al-`Aliyy)
38. The Great (al-Kabir)
39. The Preserver (al-Hafiz)
40. The Protector, The Guardian, The Feeder, The Sustainer (al-Muqit)
41. The Reckoner (al-Hasib)
42. The Sublime One (al-Jali)
43. The Bountiful, The Gracious (al-Karim)
44. The Watcher, The Watchful (al-Raqib)
45. The Responsive, The Hearkener (al-Mujib)
46. The Infinite, The All-Embracing (al-Wasi`)
47. The Wise (al-Hakim al-Mutlaq)
48. The Loving (al-Wadud)
49. The Glorious (al-Majid)
50. The Resurrector (al-Ba`ith)
51. The Witness (al-Shahid)
52. The True (al-Haqq)
53. The Advocate (al-Wakil)
54. The Most Strong (al-Qawiyy)
55. The Firm (al-Matin)
56. The Patron (al-Waliyy)
57. The Praiseworthy (al-Hamid)
58. The Numberer (al-Muhsi)
59. The Commencer (al-Mubdi)
60. The Restorer (al-Mu`id)
61. The Giver of Life (al-Muhyi)
62. The One Who Gives Death (al-Mumit)
63. The Living One (al-Hayy)
64. The Self-Subsisting (al-Qayyum)
65. The Perceiver (al-Wajid)
66. The One (al-Wahid)
67. The Independent (al-Samad)
68. The Powerful (al-Qadir)
69. The Dominant (al-Muqtadir)
70. The Giver (al-Muqaddim)
71. The Retarder (al-Mu'akhkhir)
72. The First (al-Awwal)
73. The Last (al-Akhir)
74. The Manifest (al-Zahir)
75. The Hidden (al-Batin)
76. The Governor (al-Wali)
77. The High Exalted (al-Muta`ali)
78. The Righteous (al-Barr)
79. The Relenting (al-Tawwab)
80. The Forgiver (al-`Afuww)
81. The Avenger (al-Muntaquim)
82. The Compassionate (al-Ra'uf)
83. The Ruler of the Kingdom (Malik al-Mulk)
84. The Lord of Majesty and Bounty (Dhu'l-Jalal wa'l-Ikram)
85. The Equitable (al-Muqsit)
86. The Gatherer, The Collector (al-Jami`)
87. The Self-Sufficient (al-Ghani)
88. The Enricher (al-Mughni)
89. The Bestower (al-Mu`ti)
90. The Withholder (al-Mani`)
91. The Propitious (al-Nafi`)
92. The Distresser (al-Darr)
93. The Light (al-Nur)
94. The Guide (al-Hadi)
95. The Eternal (al-Azali)
96. The Everlasting (al-Baqi)
97. The Heir (al-Warith)
98. The Guide to the Right Path (al-Rashid)
99. The Patient (al-Sabur)

With all those 99 labels of god and allah, he sounds like any one of us who could be on any spiritual path. I juz don't like the Avenger and the Retarder label though....

[DEL]

Old testament was written in Hebrew (NT in Greek) and His name is Yahweh(Jehovah) - translated 'I Am Who I Am'. God revealed His name to Moses - "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” “I AM WHO I AM,” and He said, “You shall tell the children of Israel this: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” God is a pretty general word describing a supreme being. It doesn't mean anyone's god could be Zeus or Thor. And it is said that Arab Christians use Allah al-Ab (God the Father) to differentiate from Islamic god. Islam's Allah has 99 names but that specific name is not there. Even Jesus claimed His divinity by saying "Before Abraham existed, I Am." And Jews crucified Him for blasphemy.

I am aware of that. It is in the bible. Also, i got some ''witnesses'' in my family, who btw also don't believe in trinity and crucifixion.
That are a lot of names. But who called him like that? Humans i guess. :P

Christianity is salvation by faith. God doesn't save people based on their good works. By God's standard, to be a good and righteous person on his own merit, he has to keep all the 613 law of Moses (including 10 commandments) without ever breaking any of them - 'Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.' And all the people shall say, 'Amen.' - Deut 27:26. And Jesus also said..if you only think about killing someone, you have committed a murder in God's sight.

(Romans 8:3) "The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin's control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins."

Islam is salvation by works but only for Muslims. They have no guarantee in salvation, only if you are a good Muslim who prays 5 times a day I guess. Maybe this is where you drew your idea about God and asking me this question about good Muslim and good Christian?

"Then those whose balance (of good deeds) is heavy, they will be successful. But those whose balance is light, will be those who have lost their souls; in hell will they abide," (23:102-103).

But unbelievers go to hell anyway, and they count Christians and Jews as unbelievers so further to point out Islam doesn't worship the same God of Bible.

“Surely, the disbelievers will be in the torment of Hell to abide therein forever. (The torment) will not be lightened for them, and they will be plunged into destruction with deep regrets, sorrows and in despair therein. We wronged them not, but they were the wrongdoers. And they will cry: ‘O Malik! Let your Lord make an end of us’ He will say: ‘Surely, you shall abide forever.’ Indeed We have brought the truth to you, but most of you have a hatred for the truth” (Quran 43:74-78)

(9:30-33) "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they! They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no god save Him. Be He glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)! Fain would they put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah disdaineth (aught) save that He shall perfect His light, however much the disbelievers are averse. He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse."

I said good Christian and good Muslim. With good i mean good person. I don't mean with that good followers of that religion. So they both do good acts. Take care of the poor and orphans. Never lie. They just happen to be a Christian and Muslim.

Oh, you misunderstood something. The Quran also contain verses that tell Christians and Jews go to heaven. But they must be good believers. Meanning they submit to god, in their own Christian or Jewish way. Some verses tell you that Jews will be punished, but if you read the story you will read that it go about certain Jews.

It doesn't matter for god if you look up to the skies, down to the ground or to Mecca when you pray. You just need to respect him in your way, do good by follow his teachings and in that way you will submit to him. Submit to the good, and you submit to god, no matter what his name is. Submit to the bad and you will submit to Satan.

This post has been edited by DEL: Jun 25 2011, 10:26 AM

[yiming2000]

Why do you say that? Do you go through life thinking everyone is essentially bad and out to get you? If so Why, by that I mean what makes you this way?

What makes me believe that people are essentially bad and out to get me? Our way of life, I guess.
You have money, right? Why do you keep money in a bank and don't let anyone know your ATM pin number?
Why do you lock your house and car and carry a bunch of keys for? Why are you not open about your feelings
and hide from others around you behind a facade? Why do you buy insurance instead of taking for granted that
people around you would come to your aid in times of need instead of leaving you in the lurch or, worse still,
find fault with you and sue you for damages?

[Jarhier]

I am aware of that. It is in the bible. Also, i got some ''witnesses'' in my family, who btw also don't believe in trinity and crucifixion.
That are a lot of names. But who called him like that? Humans i guess. :P

If you are aware of that, then why are you insisting God of Israel and god of Ishmael are the same because they share the same usage of the word "God" in Arabic? Only similarities in this argument so far between the two religions is that unbelievers will burn in hell.

One of things that convinced me that Jesus is God is that Romans put a mockery sign on His cross saying "Jesus of Nazareth, King of Jews," which spelled out and it reads by first letters YHWH/Yahweh. Another one is in from Old testament Isaiah wrote, "For unto us Son is born and He will be called Almighty God and Everlasting Father," as Bible preaches Jesus created the entire universe because He is the Word of God.

Trinity is difficult to understand. Even Jesus preached God is One and that He is One with the Father (Blasphemy claim to both Judaism and Islam). You have to decide for yourself whether Jesus was a liar or speaking the truth. But Bible says if a prophet says He is from God and is not 100% correct, he should be dismissed. And you see the contradictions in Quran many times like Christians will go to hell or not, or listen to Mosses and Jesus in Torah and Gospel and then say complete opposite things.

It doesn't matter for god if you look up to the skies, down to the ground or to Mecca when you pray. You just need to respect him in your way, do good by follow his teachings and in that way you will submit to him. Submit to the good, and you submit to god, no matter what his name is. Submit to the bad and you will submit to Satan.

Like I said, I don't believe in interfaith nor believe there ever will be unification of these 3 religions without some sort of major conflict to force everyone to submit to it. Jews hate Christians, Muslims hate Zionist Jews, and vise versa. Even Bible is opposed to one world religion afterall (Tower of Babel for example). But I respect whatever or whoever the person decides to believe in and it doesn't bother me if Islam or other religions say I'm going to burn in hell for believing in Christianity, since I don't believe in their religion so it shouldn't matter to me and I won't lose my sleep over it. As far as extremists on any side committing violence against other religions, that's just plain wrong.

This post has been edited by Jarhier: Jun 25 2011, 09:10 PM