Both Sides already have enough weapons to cause big damages, It's all about who could withstand severe suffering.. Options

[lilzz]

Are the soldiers willing lose their lives?
Are the civilians willling to go back to the poor days /w the economic and civilian structures being destroyed?
Being homeless and no food.

Who can go back and live the poor good old days ?

I think those questions are more real and pertinent than meanless talk adding this piece and that piece of
weapons, they are redundant. Both sides already have enough weapons to cause great harms.

In this case, I believe the chineses have an upper hand at this. Many of them are poor before so they could go back and live that style ..


I believe alot of hard-core revolutionary chinese military leaders have this type of thinking.

If they can't have taiwan, then at least they going destroy it, so nobody else can have it.
They don't mind their homeland got damaged also.

That's Mao style -trained hardcore type of thoughts.

Even the help of US and Japan, Taiwanese will not able protect their infrastructures, but probably can
prevent the chinese from landing.

/W everything pretty much destroyed in the island. If taiwaneses still want to be independent, then probably
they could. They finally have earned it.
ANd it will take 50 to 60 years to rebuild taiwan to the point where it is today.
















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This post has been edited by lilzz: Mar 27 2007, 10:33 PM

[bigdaub]

If they can't have taiwan, then at least they going destroy it, so nobody else can have it.
They don't mind their homeland got damaged also.

persoanlly, i think that's the mindset of an immature child. just an opinion.

look, sinn fein and the british government are able to come up with a power sharing deal for the time being. taiwan and china should be able to come up with something that both can live with, for the time being, as well.

of course, i'd prefer complete independece asap, but one step at a time.

[Red Fox Ace]

The destruction of war is a reason that the DPP and Chen have been espousing an offensive-oriented war that will focus on air and sea power to keep Chinese forces at bay. This kind of war will be fought across the Strait and on the Chinese mainland rather than on Taiwan, sparing the island battle damage.

[Red Fox Ace]

Let's not forget something about the "severe suffering" aspect.


If China starts a war over Taiwan and loses, chances are that there will be severe upheaval on the mainland. The CCP could well be toppled from power and there will be great instability.

[lilzz]

The destruction of war is a reason that the DPP and Chen have been espousing an offensive-oriented war that will focus on air and sea power to keep Chinese forces at bay. This kind of war will be fought across the Strait and on the Chinese mainland rather than on Taiwan, sparing the island battle damage.

Let's not forget something about the "severe suffering" aspect.

If China starts a war over Taiwan and loses, chances are that there will be severe upheaval on the mainland. The CCP could well be toppled from power and there will be great instability.

Taiwan is practically next door to china, how do you propose to knock down the missiles, long range rockets, bombs from destroying infrastructures??

Doesn't matter what type of scheme, if all-out attack from China, island will be ruined except maybe preventing them from landing.

ALso, if ever get to that point, it will be all or nothing for CCP cause of the damages, what make you think they won't re-launch the second or third attacks??
I think they could buy sometimes from the people, saying that the taiwaneses also attack CHina and helped by outsiders. That will galvanized the people. It's them only against a big group.

I forsee people won't against CPP when the War is going on. but might against them when CPP decides to giveup and declare a loss.














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This post has been edited by lilzz: Mar 28 2007, 10:07 AM

[vinnie]

If they can't have taiwan, then at least they going destroy it, so nobody else can have it.
They don't mind their homeland got damaged also.

If you can't make brittany spears your girlfriend, then you will kill her, so that no one else can go out with her. If you can't make tom cruise be your boyfriend, then you will kill him, so that no one else can go out with him. Yes, you are a psycho path.

From Taiwan's perspective. China might win battles, but winning battles don't equal to winning wars. Look at iraq. How long can you occupy a country? spending 400 billion each two years and constant bodybags going back to china on daily basis. How long can china keep this up?
If you think the PLA is so great, then why not send them to iraq and see how they would handle real combat? And how well they take causalities.

From the American's perpective. This will be the opportunity to deomcratize china. This will be the chance to wipe out china's military and remove the threat. The US can land troops in Beijing , and remove the repressive regime in Beijing, and international forces will democratize the country. A few cruise missles should do it. And believe me, the japanese would love to join in this military mission.

From china's perspective. After you lose the war, that you started. No international relief agency will go to china. There will be millions of mainlanders starving to death. Just like after WWII. German citizens where picking at a dead horse in the middle of the street, with maggots and flies on the dead horse. And japanese soldiers , after being defeated were eating the bodies of other dead soldiers to stay alive.
Mainlanders will be eating other dead chinese, in order to stay alive.
Taiwan will have the sympathy of the international community and international relief agency like the red cross will be at Taiwan to help their citizens.

[lilzz]

Actually, I just making an exaggeration, things will not be that out of control.
no country would dare invade China, US or Japan.
Give an example,
Even /w just only one nuclear attack sub remained. There would 8 of Ballistic missiles
and each one would carry 8 to 10 nuclear tipped war-heads. So theoretically, if all those missiles are launched , then you looking at total of 64 to 80 targets. what country on this earth can afford to lose
that many cities?



Since Taiwan is close, China doesn't even need use its expensive missiles. They can retrofit their old bombs
to become JDM, then launch from aircraft midpoint of strait and the bombs would be guided in by the Beidou GPS. The long range rockets also can reach taiwan. I think would concentrate on take out the military bases and hardwares and leave the civilian section alone.

If the war started, I don't think Taiwan would try to cause great harm to chinese civilian population and cities. Hey afterall China is nuclear armed. If Taiwan try. and cause great damage and threaten the CPP 's power and existence.

They might say fu*k it, and forget it, and decide clean up the whole mess and nuke it and sanitize the whole island and it becomes uninhabitable for next hundred year

In other words.
you can fight back, in a normal manner and not fighting out of control, otherwise you will be history.








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This post has been edited by lilzz: Mar 28 2007, 07:52 PM

[vinnie]

Actually in war, anything is possible. Only a short 60 years ago, All of Europe and Japan were occupied by US troops, and Russia was occupied by Germans. Therefore, a war in Asia, where china starts the war. China will be occupied by US troops/ international troops. This is a result of a war started by china. I will go into this is a little bit later. Taiwan would the least of your worries.
During the cold war of 1950 to 1980 ish. The US placed nukes in west Germany, but retained the rights to the launch codes. That is why Russia and East Germany never had the guts to invade West Germany. Similarily, currently the US places or has the ability to launch nukes from S korea, japan, Taiwan. That is why N korea, china, ussr, never tried to attack western nations.
I don't know where you get this 8 or 10 nukes in subs?? But, the Los Angeles class US subs carry at least 24 nukes, and I know the Ohio class US subs carry over about 40.
Since you are obcessed with Taiwan. Last I read, Taiwan has already developed their version of the cruise missles capable to hitting shanghai. There are 3 different versions of it. And it is said to perform better than the ones russia has sold to china. That is why President Chen of Taiwan had the confidence to re declare independence in January of this year.
Remember, Taiwan's technology is superior to china. Our missles are more accurate. And how Taiwan choose to fight back will be a total "shock and awe" for china. All options are open . And being a hard core DPP supporter. I can tell you right now. CCP warlords and their families will probably be the first targets of any Taiwan missles. Your financial districts, all your military outposts. After we destroy your money making institutions, you will not be able to be arrogant anymore.

[vinnie]

Occupation of mainland china.
A few months ago, when North korea tested nukes in mountains. The US government outlined plans as to "what will be done in case war starts in korea or Taiwan". Even if the president of Tawian re declares independence.
The US will let Taiwan / South Korea fight for the first few months. Then, the US will supply weapons to korea and Taiwan. When, china is becoming unable to win militarily. China will become frustrated, and china is all about saving face. China will be the first to use nukes, against everyone in Asia, which includes the US military bases in guam, and okinawa. CCP does not see losing as an option. CCP wants to stay in power at all costs. China is all about saving face.
Why? Because china is not going to scarifice 10 j-10 fighters to fight off one F22. china is not going to scarifice 5 china subs to fight off one US subs. We expect china to the ones to use nukes first. And who do you think western powers will do , when china use nukes? Yes, nuke all china's military outposts of course. Then international forces will move in to occupy china, set up a democratic government. Just like what the US did to japan and europe after WWII.
It will be very difficult to feed 800 million remaining chinese., and many will die of starvation. It will be very difficult to get medical attention for millions of chinese who suffer from radiations burns, cancer related to being nuked, and millions will die of slow death.
I was reading blogs and testmonys from United Nations soldiers who occupy parts of africa and cambodia. Many of these soldiers who join UN forces are child molesters who often hold sex party at cambodia and africa. They kidnapp many children under 18 and force them to have sex with them. Believe me, you in china , don't want UN soldiers occupying china.
And in one blog, the UN soldier wrote. After we defeated the opposing african army. We grabbed all the young women and girls and formed a circle. We made them give us blow jobs and afterwards, they got the youngest girls and took turns gang raped her.
So, china has everything to lose. I highly suggest you to drop your arrogance. You are nothing. You have no idea what war and reality is.

[lilzz]

Well, yackyat, if you know what you talking about then you don't need to change your name to vinnie.

Here's the fact for taiwan
US have never ever sell any of nuke -subs to any countries(don't bring up US class nuke sub in taiwan discussion).
Doesn't possess any nuclear arsenals currently.
Doesn't possess any GPS satellite currently.
Doesn't possess ballistic missile tech.

What shock and awe? Have no stealth bomber to speak of.

I don't really want to discuss more in detail cause when you open your mouth, you don't what you talking about. wasting my breath.















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[vinnie]

lilizz,
It is ok that you are too afraid to debate me, since my knowledge of politics is much superior to yours.
You see, I don't need to beat up and debate someone much smaller than myself to feed my own ego. I am very different from people like you and china. You and china need to attack smaller countries to make yourself look big. Yes, you do have a little man complex.
Here are the facts.
I will try to find that article for you from defence news .com . Taiwan has already developed cruise missles that performed better than the ones russia sold to china. Yes, it will be a shock and awe when china's targets are destroyed.
In 1996, I was in Taiwan, when the china shot missles across Taiwan. My military friends told me, the US gave Taiwan 2 dozen nukes. My opinion is that, Taiwan don't want to brag that taiwan have access to nuke weapons, because taiwan don't want to escalate cross strait tensions. Only during war, will Taiwan bring out their REAL arsnals.
Do you think, a modern high tech country is that defenseless?? Do you think countries like japan, s korea, and taiwan don't have nukes? Com mon, even pakistan have nukes.
Go to yahoo, and type in US military build up in the pacific. You will be "shocked and awed."

Posted on 07/04/2005 6:42:30 AM PDT by TigerLikesRooster


/begin my translation

Taiwan Develop a Cruise Missile Which Can Strike Mainland's Coastal Area Within Range


(Beijing, Yonhap News) correspondent Cho Sung-dae -- Taiwan completed the operational testing & evaluation (OT&E) of 'Hsiung-feng 2E' cruise missile, which has Eastern coast of China within its range, and gears up for its mass production and deployment, according to July 4th issue of Wen-hui-bao in Hong Kong.

It reports that, at the end of the last month(June, 2005,) Taiwan's Zhong-shan Science Institute completed OT&E of Hsiung-feng 2E at Jiu-peng base, Ping-dong. OT&E is to test an weapon system in a battlefield condition and evaluate its result in order to determine its operational efficiency and feasibility.

Hsiung-feng 2E, a subsonic attack missile, is the upgraded version of ship-to-ship missile Hsiung-feng 2 whose range is 150 km(93.2 mile.) It has the range of 500km(310.7 mile,) which has provinces, cities, and major military targets in Chinese east coast within its effective range .

In recent OT&E, it successfully hit a target 500km away, and it can hit within 12m(39.4 ft) radius of the target. They planned to extend its effective range to 1,000km(621.4 mile,) which makes it a major threat to the mainland(China.)

Hsiung-feng 2E will be deployed to the Air defense Command directly under Staffs Headquarter, which is equivalent to China's 2nd Artillery Corps (missile units.)



lilizz
I will tell you what I think about you..
Young people should be more involved in organizations like prevention of global warming, preventing cancer, joining organizations like anti smoking groups. Something that is more productive to society and country.
But, instead, you are promoting war and hate. You remind me of youth groups that served emperor Hiroto of japan in WWII. And you remind me of the Hitler's youth groups, they ran around and hated Jews.
You are a pathetic character. You are a filthy racist. I am quite disgusted by your posts.

[lilzz]

lilizz,
Taiwan Develop a Cruise Missile Which Can Strike Mainland's Coastal Area Within Range
(Beijing, Yonhap News)

Hsiung-feng 2E, a subsonic attack missile, is the upgraded version of ship-to-ship missile Hsiung-feng 2

It reports that, at the end of the last month(June, 2005,) Taiwan's Zhong-shan Science Institute completed OT&E of Hsiung-feng 2E at Jiu-peng base, Ping-dong. OT&E is to test an weapon system in a battlefield condition and evaluate its result in order to determine its operational efficiency and feasibility.

You need to clear on what you wrote ,Is this a cruise missile (aka tomahawk) or anti-ship missile?
I see both terms are using concurrently.

So, it's being developed and tested by the science academy. Have fun on those science projects.
They might explode and hurt the students if not enough caution being taken.











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This post has been edited by lilzz: Mar 29 2007, 04:37 PM

[Red Fox Ace]

You need to clear on what you wrote ,Is this a cruise missile (aka tomahawk) or anti-ship missile?

HF-2 is an anti-ship missile. HF-2E is a cruise missile.

Do you think countries like japan, s korea, and taiwan don't have nukes? Com mon, even pakistan have nukes.

They CAN build nukes, but they don't HAVE them. There's a difference.

[lilzz]

They CAN build nukes, but they don't HAVE them. There's a difference.

One important question needed to ask is whether US allows them to have nuke.
Japan, Taiwan, South Korea all under the wings of US.


US had nuked Japan before, you don't think US back in their mind have some reservation
that a nuclear armed Japan might revenge against them down the line.

THat's why US is very against Japan nuclear armed.
I am sure US is also against Taiwan and South Korea having nuke, because once those countries have nukes, then they might not obey US anymore.

[Red Fox Ace]

US had nuked Japan before, you don't think US back in their mind have some reservation
that a nuclear armed Japan might revenge against them down the line.

A nuke-armed Japan will attack the US? Oh come on be serious please.......

[lilzz]

A nuke-armed Japan will attack the US? Oh come on be serious please.......

You can't rule out that possibility down the line can you?

Between different countries, there's no forever alliance. Remember my quote.

Why, you don't think US subdued Japan by force?
US really chained down Japan politically and militarily. But they are free in the economic arena.

that's why you are just a student.. There are things that are just too far ahead of you ..




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[vinnie]

lilizz, this news was back from 2005.
few months ago, last I heard, taiwan has already built 50 of them that can hit 1000 km into china. That is why president Chen in January re delcared independence again.

Hsiung-feng 2E, a subsonic attack missile, is the upgraded version of ship-to-ship missile Hsiung-feng 2 whose range is 150 km(93.2 mile.) It has the range of 500km(310.7 mile,) which has provinces, cities, and major military targets in Chinese east coast within its effective range .

In recent OT&E, it successfully hit a target 500km away, and it can hit within 12m(39.4 ft) radius of the target. They planned to extend its effective range to 1,000km(621.4 mile,) which makes it a major threat to the mainland(China.)

2nd, Countries like Taiwan, japan, South korea, don't want to increase tension with communist neighbors, that is why they don't flash any news about their nuke weapons.
Do you honestly believe that Taiwan, japan, s korea don't have nukes? Com on! Don't play stupid and don't insult our intelligence here. If it is so easy to nuke these countries, they why have not china do so? We all know ,china loves to nuke taiwan and japan. This is a fact.
I was in Taipei in 1996, when china shot the missles at Taiwan. I heard from my military friends in Taiwan, the US gave Taiwan two dozen nukes. I was in tokyo in 2000, when North korea fired missle across japan. Again, I heard from the japanese the US gave them several dozen nukes.
You see, you have a poor understanding of japan and US relations. These two countries are so close that, anything japan prime minister does, they always ask washington first. Japan is the colony of the US.
Of course we all know, the US gave isreal nukes., for example.
Countries around the world don't like to advertise what weapons they have, they don't want to make their neighbors feel insecure, this is common sense. So, let's no play stupid, and make stupid statements like , modern countries like taiwan, japan, s korea, don't have nukes. This is a false statement.
Just like before, the war in iraq, the US thought iraq weapons are junk. Then, when the US went in, the US tanks were being destroyed by russian made anti rockets, that the US did not think iraq have.
Only during war, will the enemy surprise you, and you will find out very quickly what they really have.

[vinnie]

hey lilizz,
read the other post on Taiwan's IDF new fighters. guess what. Taiwan is already capable of making cluster bombs. ha ha ha ! Good luck trying to invade taiwan. Your PLA soldiers will have their legs and arms missing. ha ha ha!!

He said if Goshawks could be armed with “Wan Chien” (Ten Thousand Swords) cluster bombs that could be used to attack China's coastal military installations, 300km from Taiwan, they would pose a greater threat to China's military might.

Taiwanese arms researchers have reportedly successfully developed “Wan Chien”.

[Red Fox Ace]

I was in Taipei in 1996, when china shot the missles at Taiwan. I heard from my military friends in Taiwan, the US gave Taiwan two dozen nukes.

Cite sources please.

lilizz, this news was back from 2005.
few months ago, last I heard, taiwan has already built 50 of them that can hit 1000 km into china. That is why president Chen in January re-declared independence again.

He re-declared independence? What on earth...?


Cite sources please.

Again, I heard from the japanese the US gave them several dozen nukes.

Cite sources please.

Of course we all know, the US gave isreal nukes., for example.

No, Israel built its own nukes.

[lilzz]

well, yackyat, aka vinnie

the bottomline is for countries who hasn't make a nuke yet, it's too late.

why do you think the international community is against Iran developing nuclear weapon?

If you are not already in the nuclear club, you are not allow to enter anymore.