New Theory on Angkor, Who were the last Varman kings? Options

[indiglo]

edit double post

This post has been edited by indiglo: Jan 18 2012, 01:37 AM

[Leeporter]

hi im Indonesian ,actually i dont want to get involved in this thread untill this post which mention Javadveep in Suratthani and tai from javadveep / javadvip (the true spell) lol ,and i think this is a bias information.

Java was known by Indian chroniclers before 600 BCE. The name Java comes from the Sanskrit Jawadwip, which means a (dvip) island (yawa) shaped like a barley corn. The Vedic Indians must have charted Java, Yawadvip, thousands of years ago because Yawadvip is mentioned in India's earliest epic, the Ramayana. The Ramayana reveals some knowledge of the eastern regions beyond seas; for instance Sugriva dispatched his men to Yavadvipa, the island of Java, in search of Sita. It speaks of Burma as the land of silver mines. The Agni Purana, along with many other Puranas, calls India proper as Jambudvipa as distinguished from Dvipantara or India of the islands or overseas India. Towards the end of the fifth century, Aryabhatta, the Indian astronomer, wrote that when the sun rose in Ceylon it was midday in Yavakoti (Java) and midnight in the Roman land. In the Surya Siddhanta reference is also made to the Nagari Yavakoti with golden walls and gates.

It is interesting to note that the ancient Indian Sanskrit epic, Ramayana, makes a mention of these islands. After the abduction of Sita from the Panchavati forest, Rama and Lakshmana go in search of her

In Kishkindha Kanda of Valmiki Ramayana, chapter 40 verses 30, 31 and 32, the islands of Java and Sumatra are said to have been described by Sugreeva:

yatnavanto yava dviipam sapta raajya upashobhitam |
suvarNa ruupyakam dviipam suvarNa aakara maNDitam || 4-40-30
yava dviipam atikramya shishiro naama parvataH |
divam spR^ishati shR^ingeNa deva daanava sevitaH || 4-40-31
eteSaam giri durgeSu prapaateSu vaneSu ca |
maargadhvam sahitaaH sarve raama patniim yashasviniim || 4-40-32

“You strive hard in the island of Yava, which will be splendorous with seven kingdoms, like that even in Golden and Silver islands that are enwreathed with gold-mines, in and around Yava islands. On crossing over Yava Island, there is a mountain named Shishira, which touches heaven with its peak, and which gods and demons adore. You shall collectively rake through all the impassable mountains, waterfalls, and forests in these islands for the glorious wife of Rama.”

The islands of Yava mentioned in the above verses are said to be the modern day Java islands. The Golden and Silver islands refer to Sumatra which was earlier known as Swarnadwīpa (Island of Gold). The seven kingdoms may refer to the Indonesian archipelago. This clearly indicates the knowledge of geography of regions beyond the Bharata khand by the ancient Hindus. This also suggests that people of ancient Bharat have travelled to these lands and back.
so javanese is the peoples who live in Java dvip
Thanks


Source :www.hinduyuva.org

Java, Yawa, Jaba are the same thing. It consisted of Borneo, Sumartra and Malayu (southern Thailand)

You have to understand that geography changes all the time.

In those days, Southern Thailand was not in one part, it had a strait in the north that separated it from mainland, called "Pho Narai" (Alexander the sailor called it "Berabai") which linked the west sea (at Kan Tang, Trang) and the east sea (at Tung Song, Nakorn Sridhammarath).

Part of the soil of the Ligor area in those day (toady Nakorn Sridhamarat) was a sea bottom before it emerged into a land as in today.

So, basically, southern Thailand (aka Malayu) was an island with Pho Narai (Berabai) strait in the north and Mallaca strait in the south.

And during the period we are talking about (Funan), it and Borneo, Sumartra were part of Funan.

[indiglo]

Java, Yawa, Jaba are the same thing. It consisted of Borneo, Sumartra and Malayu (southern Thailand)

You have to understand that geography changes all the time.

In those days, Southern Thailand was not in one part, it had a strait in the north that separated it from mainland, called "Pho Narai" (Alexander the sailor called it "Berabai") which linked the west sea (at Kan Tang, Trang) and the east sea (at Tung Song, Nakorn Sridhammarath).

Part of the soil of the Ligor area in those day (toady Nakorn Sridhamarat) was a sea bottom before it emerged into a land as in today.

So, basically, southern Thailand (aka Malayu) was an island with Pho Narai (Berabai) strait in the north and Mallaca strait in the south.

And during the period we are talking about (Funan), it and Borneo, Sumartra were part of Funan.

According to India's earliest epic, the Ramayana. Java dvipa Java and Suvharna dvipa Sumatra was a different place/area/island
In Kishkindha Kanda of Valmiki Ramayana, chapter 40 verses 30, 31 and 32, the islands of Java and Sumatra are said to have been described by Sugreeva:

yatnavanto yava dviipam sapta raajya upashobhitam |
suvarNa ruupyakam dviipam suvarNa aakara maNDitam || 4-40-30
yava dviipam atikramya shishiro naama parvataH |
divam spR^ishati shR^ingeNa deva daanava sevitaH || 4-40-31
eteSaam giri durgeSu prapaateSu vaneSu ca |
maargadhvam sahitaaH sarve raama patniim yashasviniim || 4-40-32

“You strive hard in the island of Yava, which will be splendorous with seven kingdoms, like that even in Golden and Silver islands that are enwreathed with gold-mines, in and around Yava islands. On crossing over Yava Island, there is a mountain named Shishira, which touches heaven with its peak, and which gods and demons adore. You shall collectively rake through all the impassable mountains, waterfalls, and forests in these islands for the glorious wife of Rama.”

[Leeporter]

According to India's earliest epic, the Ramayana. Java dvipa Java and Suvharna dvipa Sumatra was a different place/area/island
In Kishkindha Kanda of Valmiki Ramayana, chapter 40 verses 30, 31 and 32, the islands of Java and Sumatra are said to have been described by Sugreeva:

yatnavanto yava dviipam sapta raajya upashobhitam |
suvarNa ruupyakam dviipam suvarNa aakara maNDitam || 4-40-30
yava dviipam atikramya shishiro naama parvataH |
divam spR^ishati shR^ingeNa deva daanava sevitaH || 4-40-31
eteSaam giri durgeSu prapaateSu vaneSu ca |
maargadhvam sahitaaH sarve raama patniim yashasviniim || 4-40-32

“You strive hard in the island of Yava, which will be splendorous with seven kingdoms, like that even in Golden and Silver islands that are enwreathed with gold-mines, in and around Yava islands. On crossing over Yava Island, there is a mountain named Shishira, which touches heaven with its peak, and which gods and demons adore. You shall collectively rake through all the impassable mountains, waterfalls, and forests in these islands for the glorious wife of Rama.”

Javadweep was the islands including Sumatra.
Suvarahumi was the southern Thailand and probably cover central Thailand (Suphanburi, Rajaburi, Nakorn Phatom etc)

indiglo, Dweep (dvipa) does not really mean island, it mean the land that separated from other land (probably with water on 2 sides) or continent.

Like India was called "Jambudweep" and it was not an island at all.

For example, in Thai language we call Asia continent as "Dweep Asia", America continent as "Dweep America" etc.



This post has been edited by Leeporter: Jan 18 2012, 02:10 AM

[indiglo]

Javadweep was the islands including Sumatra.
Suvarahumi was the southern Thailand and probably cover central Thailand (Suphanburi, Rajaburi, Nakorn Phatom etc)

hmmm you look very Thai centric , i never found any website, non Thailand web refer Suvharna bumi/ Suvharna Dvipa to Thailand ! i can drop thosands indian website which refer Suvharna dvipa as a Sumatra Island Indonesia

here an example :

This region was broadly referred to by ancient Indians as Suvarnabhumi (the Land of Gold) or Suvarnadvipa (the Island of Gold), although scholars dispute its exact definition. Sometimes the term is interpreted to mean only Indonesia or Sumatra. Arab writers such as Al Biruni testify that Indians called the whole Southeast region Suwarndib (Suvarnadvipa). Hellenistic geographers knew the area as the Golden Ghersonese. The Chinese called it Kin-Lin; Kin means gold. During the last two thousand years, this region has come under the influence of practically all the major civilizations of the world: Indian, Chinese, Islamic, and Western. Of these, Indian culture appears to have blended best with the indigenous culture.

Indian website source :http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Suvarnabhumi.htm

I chalenge you to find and provide here ,if any Indian website which refer Suvharna Dvipa refer to Thailand .so we can compare who have more credible source .

This post has been edited by indiglo: Jan 18 2012, 02:16 AM

[Leeporter]

hmmm you look very Thai centric , i never found any website, non Thailand web refer Suvharna bumi/ Suvharna Dvipa to Thailand ! i can drop thosands indian website which refer Suvharna dvipa as a Sumatra Island Indonesia

here an example :

This region was broadly referred to by ancient Indians as Suvarnabhumi (the Land of Gold) or Suvarnadvipa (the Island of Gold), although scholars dispute its exact definition. Sometimes the term is interpreted to mean only Indonesia or Sumatra. Arab writers such as Al Biruni testify that Indians called the whole Southeast region Suwarndib (Suvarnadvipa). Hellenistic geographers knew the area as the Golden Ghersonese. The Chinese called it Kin-Lin; Kin means gold. During the last two thousand years, this region has come under the influence of practically all the major civilizations of the world: Indian, Chinese, Islamic, and Western. Of these, Indian culture appears to have blended best with the indigenous culture.

Indian website source :http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Suvarnabhumi.htm

If you insist that Suvarnabhumi referred to Indonesia then welcome to the war, indiglo.

[indiglo]

If you insist that Suvarnabhumi referred to Indonesia then welcome to the war, indiglo.

lol cool man .....okay i leave out of this thread bye

[Leeporter]

Ok, let go back to where we were.

This is what Liang Shu recorded about Funan:

"The kingdom of Funan is south of Rinan prefecture (in northern Vietnam), in a big bay on the west of the sea. It is 7,000 li from Rinan, and over 3,000 li southwest of Linyi (Champa)."

Now, if we take Linyi as Champa which is supposed to be in Vietnam (south of China), explain how could Funan located in south Vietnam like Ok Kaew???

3,000 Chinese li was around 1,300 - 1,500 km.

How could the French historian squeezed it to be southern Vietnam and concluded that Ok Kaew was the center of Funan???

Anyone want to explain it?




This post has been edited by Leeporter: Jan 18 2012, 10:20 AM

[Leeporter]

lol cool man .....okay i leave out of this thread bye

Please stay around. Don't go too far.

I am just not available now to discuss with you where Suvarnabhumi is because I am busying talking about Funan here.

But welcome to the discussion if you believe that Suvarnabhumi is only Sumatra or Indonesia.

I will come back to talk to you later, ok?

[KhmerBoi]

As far as I understand in Most of SEA Asia coutry claiming Sovannabhumi as in their country... In cambodia we claim it too but we also say that it was refer to theses region SEA and of cause now there many coutry right now there isno wrong if Singaporian claim it too. But one thing I can claim it here is... The word Tvib or Dveep I think u can't just base on your second hand used language to claim of their meaning in origin.. Like leeporter did.. Well, in Khmer it mean continent too. But it not mean all the time continent it can be mean place.

Like ancient Indian call Funan as Sakakdveep (Norkor Kokthlok in Khmer, not sakak is is tree which very similar to thlok tree, and Kokthlok I think those word is very hard for Indian to pronoun that why they need to used the word sakak instead of the original but still very closed). And I believe that Javadveep is already directly pointing to Java or Javanese why you need to claim as something els.

[KhmerBoi]

But as I can see it here Thai people have change everything to to fix to their theory... There is real evidences.. Just talk talk talk and never stop!!! And well poor me I always accompany them!!!! But it is fun sometime!!!!! Kekekeke

[Leeporter]

As far as I understand in Most of SEA Asia coutry claiming Sovannabhumi as in their country... In cambodia we claim it too but we also say that it was refer to theses region SEA and of cause now there many coutry right now there isno wrong if Singaporian claim it too.

See what I meant, indiglo?
If you claim Suvanabhumi as Indonesia, then welcome to the war because every country in SEA also claim it.

And I believe that Javadveep is already directly pointing to Java or Javanese why you need to claim as something els.

Because I am showing that Javadweep didn't mean Java as it is today.

It referred to Southern Thailand and that explains why Suriyavarman I was said to be from Nakorn Sridhamarat and I will later show you that Jayavaraman II was from Javadweep in southern Thailand, not Java island.



It all add up to one single theory that can explain everything.

[indiglo]

Please stay around. Don't go too far.

I am just not available now to discuss with you where Suvarnabhumi is because I am busying talking about Funan here.

But welcome to the discussion if you believe that Suvarnabhumi is only Sumatra or Indonesia.

I will come back to talk to you later, ok?

ok i will here for while btw back to my first post i dont want to get involved in this discussion ,my ponting is Java Dvipa is Java Island no other place. and from many sources Suvharna Dvipa refer Sumatra Island and Shuvarna Bhumi for South East Asia mainland
that's it .

This post has been edited by indiglo: Jan 18 2012, 02:48 AM

[KhmerBoi]

See what I meant, indiglo?
If you claim Suvanabhumi as Indonesia, then welcome to the war because every country in SEA also claim it.



Because I am showing that Javadweep didn't mean Java as it is today.

It referred to Southern Thailand and that explains why Suriyavarman I was said to be from Nakorn Sridhamarat and I will later show you that Jayavaraman II was from Javadweep in southern Thailand, not Java island.



It all add up to one single theory that can explain everything.

I think you crazy!!!!!!

[Leeporter]

Now, go back to Funan.

KhmerBoi, where do you think Funan was? In southern Vietnam, Cambodia or in southern Thailand?

For your hint, let me requoted what the Chinese "Liang Shu " recorded during mid-3rd century A.D.


"The kingdom of Funan is south of Rinan prefecture (in northern Vietnam), in a big bay on the west of the sea. It is 7,000 li from Rinan, and over 3,000 li southwest of Linyi (Champa)."



Open Google earth and try it. Try to sqeeze it into southern Vietnam and see if you can.

This post has been edited by Leeporter: Jan 18 2012, 02:49 AM

[KhmerBoi]

ok i will here for while btw back to my first post i dont want to get involved in this discussion ,my ponting is Java Dvipa is Java Island no other place. and from nay sources Suvharna Dvipa refer Sumatra Island and Shuvarna Bhumi for South East Asia mainland
that's it .

I think you are so right!!!!!

This post has been edited by KhmerBoi: Jan 18 2012, 02:48 AM

[Leeporter]

ok i will here for while btw back to my first post i dont want to get involved in this discussion ,my ponting is Java Dvipa is Java Island no other place. and from nay sources Suvharna Dvipa refer Sumatra Island and Shuvarna Bhumi for South East Asia mainland
that's it .

indiglo, Suvharna Dvipa and Shuvarna Bhumi are the same thing.

Dweep and Bhumi mean the same thing.

If you believe that Dweep refer to island then Jambudvipa must be Indian Island?

This post has been edited by Leeporter: Jan 18 2012, 02:51 AM

[indiglo]

And I believe that Javadveep is already directly pointing to Java or Javanese why you need to claim as something els.

thats my point bro:)

[KhmerBoi]

Now, go back to Funan.

KhmerBoi, where do you think Funan was? In southern Vietnam, Cambodia or in southern Thailand?

For your hint, let me requoted what the Chinese "Liang Shu " recorded during mid-3rd century A.D.


"The kingdom of Funan is south of Rinan prefecture (in northern Vietnam), in a big bay on the west of the sea. It is 7,000 li from Rinan, and over 3,000 li southwest of Linyi (Champa)."



Open Google earth and try it. Try to sqeeze it into southern Vietnam and see if you can.

Can you tell me another Hindu temple which was build earlier then Phnom Da in is SEA mainland?

This post has been edited by KhmerBoi: Jan 18 2012, 02:51 AM

[indiglo]

indiglo, Suvharna Dvipa and Shuvarna Bhumi are the same thing.

Dweep and Bhumi mean the same thing.

then where was java bhumi i 've never heard this name

This post has been edited by indiglo: Jan 18 2012, 02:53 AM