Chinggis Khaan, and following Great Khaans Options

[matigasngulo]

DISCLAIMER : My posts are strictly for ENTERTAINMENT purposes only.

Educational effects or similarity to serious business are purely coincidental.

[thehorsemen]

Ahahahah

[Flowerseed]

Well there are no chinese sources which would deny that Chinggis Khaan was of Mongol descent, its just there is no contradiction between being a chinese of mongolian descent, even in the older days anyone can become chinese if he/she accept the chinese view and concept of the world order. However this shouldnt apply to Chinggis Khaan as he didnt even live long enough to conquer china or to face the decision to accept chinese ideals or not, it was kubilai khan who have adopted a new way of administration and made himself emperor (by which he has claimed the mandate of heaven), and he has also given his ancestors the titel of emperors. Kubilai khan wanted to effectively rule the country while avoiding his people being assimiliated in china, which was not really successful as his acting was viewed by the mongolians as too chinese while chinese seeing his rule not "sinified" enough, in the end his has to fight his relatives in the mongolian homeland while facing rebellions from the chinese, by which would bring end to his dynasty just several decades after he has setting up his rule. Nevertheless it has fallen into the "grey" part of chinese history by which people can have different argument about the national identity of the mongolian dynasty.

But it really doesnt matter so much as today the majority mongolians are living in china as legal chinese citizens.

This post has been edited by Flowerseed: Nov 29 2009, 10:17 AM

[thehorsemen]

Lol that no where nearly makes Kubilai Chinese. So if I were to go over tomarrow and say, take over china. I'd automatically be chinese? Rofl

[Flowerseed]

Lol that no where nearly makes Kubilai Chinese. So if I were to go over tomarrow and say, take over china. I'd automatically be chinese? Rofl

Of course its far more complicated than that, but if you have done so much things differentely as the kubilai khan, trusting chinese advisers for the governing of the country more than mongolian nobels and actively promote Confucianism education for young Mongolians, there will be doubt of your identity even from your own brothers. Kubilai khan never wanted to become chinese and was always aware of his identity, but the nessercities forced him to act against the traditional way, neither can he deny the various chinese influences from both his mother and teacher, while his mongolian relatives cant see the reason and understand the way of his acting.

For example;

"Khubilai’s influence of the Chinese way of life also came from his mother. After her husbands death Ögödei had reluctantly agreed to her request to have an appanage, and gave her in 1236 an area in northern China called Chen-ting. As a ruler over a population of Chinese peasants instead of Mongolian nomads, she recognized the politic that exploited the peasants and looted the resources of the country was shortsighted if not catastrophic. Her opinion was that the taxes could be greater if she took care of the agriculture that was already there instead of going into a more traditional Mongolian cattle economy."

Among others things he see the chinese way of life is far more advanced than the mongolian counterpart and also nessercary for upholding his rule, other mongolians cant understand him refusing to exploite chinese population and more importantly share power among mongolian nobels, calling him not a true mongolians anymore for only want to take care of the chinese, and so the conflicts grow into bloody battle while kubilai adopt the same methode as the chinese emperor against babarian threats who were in reality his own brothers and sisters, especially in his older day he was more chinese emperor than the greatkhan of mongolians

How you act and behave determine to which groups you belong, not only the blood or race, especially in china.

This post has been edited by Flowerseed: Nov 29 2009, 11:15 AM

[thehorsemen]

Chinggis had chinese generals, are you going to say he's chinese now? I don't take that as a sign of being another nationality as it is smart tactics, you can talk about his views all you want. But that won't change his genetics, how he was raised, ect.

[Flowerseed]

I see, to you genetics is above anything else, but as a chinese I cant accept this view, in the older days somebody who have accept the chinese way of life in exchange of his own traditions (even if unintentionally) can be viewed as chinese by me, in this regard Chinggis khan was never a chinese emperor as he didnt had the chance during his lifetime, the reason why its "grey" is because of historical records as emperor khubilai have "made" his dead ancestor chinese emperor after death as its common in east asia, rulers always give their titels to their fathers and grandfathers once they come to power, those who take the position directly from their fathers have no problem in this regard, but if the power is taken from a brother or a different royal linage then for example the father and grandfather of the new ruler will by most likely get the titel of emperor or king as their son (or grandson) and will be written down in historical record, even if they have never ruled the country during their lifetime. Like anybody else a ruler must pay respect to their ancestors, and give them the titel of emperor or kings is one of the ways.

This post has been edited by Flowerseed: Nov 29 2009, 01:00 PM

[thehorsemen]

Yes, it would only be logical that blood, an the culture you're raised with are more important than any political maneuvering. Wouldn't you agree, as thats the feeling of 99% of posters on this forum. But this situation is slightly different. As it has to do with china, and as such most of the nationalists want to take credit for things even if it wasn't of their own origin. What you're spelling it is something to this nature. Say a chinese or a mongolian american should be considered american if they move here and have some sort of political view. And that they shouldn't even call themselves either of those ethnicities because somehow it would be "detrimental" of say americas outlook somehow.

This post has been edited by thehorsemen: Nov 29 2009, 12:11 PM

[Flowerseed]

Hm, many things seems to be more complicated than they should be, although sometimes its not always clear but race and nation are two different concept (especially in the modern age), you can be a mongolian and american national just as mongolian and mongolian national, i dont understand how they cant call themself mongolians or why it can be "detrimental", in the older days of history most of the time races are connected with nations, but even then any country by size of china will have to move above races or blood relation, otherwise it wont be possible hold itself together. Today almost all big countries have citizens of various ethnic groups, for the society discrimination is just as harmful as unnessecary distinction.

Btw internet is a place where nationalsm and racism run wild for the sake of entertainment...

This post has been edited by Flowerseed: Nov 29 2009, 12:37 PM

[thehorsemen]

Yes, but the only point of china wanting to claim Kubilai so badly is to save face, political maneuvering. Most chinese don't like his rule anyway. But I agree, many things are way too complicated to even try to sort out. Especially when it was long before our time.

[hitmonxiong]

next thing we know QINGgis Khan. haha

[thehorsemen]

Ah jeez, don't give them straws to grasp at. lol

[Flowerseed]

It appears that some people have difficulties in definition of race and nation, for example in regard of han and mongolians as chinese and mongolians, nobody in china will say that what genghis khan and kubilai khans accomplishments are not from the mongolians or that they were not mongolians but many would say they are part of chinese history, as they are also the heritage of the majority of mongolians in the world who are living in china as chinese citizens, while nobody would ever say that those were han accomplishment, its understandable the the mongolians in outer mongolia would have to share their past glory with their chinese brothers and sisters across the border. Things wouldnt become so complicated if outer mongolia didnt become independent, but even as it has happened the view of most chinese will be that those accomplishments are both mongolian and chinese heritage as other accomplishments are both han and chinese heritage or hui and chinese heritage. Mongolians from outer mongolia itself would have difficulties to see the things this way as mongolia was (and is) never a multiethnic country and things were always clear, that and the matter about genghis khan is one of the core issue of national identity, but this wont convince several millions chinese to give up their heritage either.

This post has been edited by Flowerseed: Nov 29 2009, 02:09 PM

[thehorsemen]

In that same vein isn't it the chinese who like to claim neighboring naitions like to steal culture, historical figures, ect?

[Flowerseed]

You make it sound like there are nobody trying to steal chinese culture and accomplishment, dont be stupid, not everything has to come from conspiracy, saving face, political maneuvering or whatever. There are contradiction in peoples view and they may have various reasons come from natural development which could all be regarded as justified if seen from an objective Perspective, it doesnt mean one country is more evil than another and some of them may never be solved. If you have lived one century ago in your homeland you would have different view than now, as its still mongolian accomplishment and culture but as citizens of qing empire could you deny that the heritage is also part of the your nation? How would you feel if you are born and raised up in china, would you let your ancestors suddenly become foreign to you? I have seen that so much effort were put into preserving mongolian culture(language, cloths, customs..) in china never seen in mongolia itself.

This post has been edited by Flowerseed: Nov 29 2009, 02:34 PM

[thehorsemen]

How do you know my ancestors would enjoy the political climate of the time? What if they shared some of the same views I have? I'd say that's a more interesting question myself. Because I'd like to see what you would feel like that past nationalistic arguing.

[Flowerseed]

Most people dont enjoy the political climate in the older days as it can be proven quite "unhealthy", and i would never know how the people who have passed away a century ago feel like, but after a society is build up and stabilised long enough its natural for the citizens to identify with the country up to the point of breakdown. What i know is how some of todays mongolians in inner and outer mongolia feels about the issue and both have justified reason.

This post has been edited by Flowerseed: Nov 29 2009, 03:20 PM

[thehorsemen]

That and we'll never know the true opinions of scenarios like that, might as well look to the future.

[Flowerseed]

Who knows maybe there will be an alien invasion or huge natural natural catastrophes forcing human kind to really work together to survive, then come the realization of the stupidity for cling on all the differences in the past. External pressure would be effective, at least I have that much faith in human society.

[thehorsemen]

Lets hope it isn't the Klingons.