The Origins of Chinese Religions and Philosophies (abbr) Options

[elleX0]

Origins of Chinese Religions and Philosophies (abbr)

Introduction:
Often the perception of religion in China is quite different from that of the Islamic or Judeo-Christian faiths. Many people from China also understand their religions with a different concept from that of Western views and we will attempt to analyse the reasons for this. The origins of Chinese religion and culture come from different roots, and this must be appreciated to attempt to compare these cultures.
(The authors views are presented in "Bold Italics."

The Shamanistic Origins of Taoism
By Elizabeth Reninger,

The beginnings of recorded historical China lie some 5,000 years ago, when a tribal people settled along the banks of the Yellow River -- its source high on the Tibetan plateau, its mouth at the Yellow Sea. These people were hunters-gatherers, and farmers. Millet was most likely their first grain cultivated; rice and corn and wheat coming later. Evidence exists that they were also potters and musicians, and that they produced the world’s first wine.
The Wu – Shamans of Ancient China

Their relationship to the cosmos was a shamanistic one. At least some among them were able to communicate directly with plants, minerals, and animals; to journey deep into the earth, or visit distant galaxies. They were able to invoke, through dance and ritual, elemental and supernatural powers, and enter into ecstatic union with them. The class of people most adept at such techniques became known as the Wu – the shamans of ancient China, (Shang Dynasty ca. 1600-1046 BCE).

The Three Sovereigns & Five Emperors

The leaders of this pre-dynastic era were the legendary Three Sovereigns, or “August Ones,” and the Five Emperors – morally perfected sage-kings who used their magical powers to protect their people and to create conditions for peaceful and harmonious living. The wisdom, compassion and enlightened power of these Beings was beyond mortal comprehension; and the benefit they bestowed upon those they governed, immeasurable. The Heavenly Sovereign, Fuxi, is said to have discovered the eight trigrams - the bagua - which is "the foundation of the Yijing (I-Ching,) Taoism's most well-known system of divination. The Human Sovereign, Shennong, is credited with the invention of farming, and the introduction of herbs for medicinal purposes. The Yellow Emperor, Huangdi, is known as the father of Chinese Medicine.

(It is here clearly established that the basis of Taoism came from early Chinese shamanism the basis of the Taoist religion and her gods.)

Yu The Great

It was under the reign of Emperor Shun that the legendary “Yu The Great” was challenged to subdue the flooding of the Yellow River, a task which – through some combination of magical and technological prowess – he accomplished with great success. He subsequently designed a system of dikes and canals which proved to be of great and lasting benefit to his people. The "Pace of Yu" - the dance-steps which transported him mystically to the stars, where he received guidance from THE DEITIES - is practised even today in certain in certain Taoist traditions.
Shamanism: The Roots of Taoist Practice

There is much, in fact, from this early period of China' history, and in particular its shamanistic world-view and practices, that is reflected in the subsequent emergence of Taoism.There is much, in fact, from this early period of China’s history, and in particular its shamanistic world-view and practices, that is reflected in the subsequent emergence of Taoism. Spirit-travel to planets, stars and galaxies is a practice found within the Shangging sect of Taoism. Taoist magicians use talismans to invoke the powers and protection of supernatural beings. Components of many Taoist rituals and ceremonies, as well as certain forms of qigong, are oriented toward communication with the plant and animal kingdoms. And the practices of Inner Alchemy are designed to produce, from the very bodies of its practitioners, the mystic wine of ecstatic spiritual union.
Zhuangzi’s Butterfly

Zhuangzi (Chuang Tzu) – one of the earliest and greatest of the Taoist philosophers – wrote about a dream he had, in which he was a yellow butterfly. And then he woke, to discover that he was a man. But then he wondered: now am I a man who just dreamt he was a butterfly; or a butterfly who is now dreaming that he is a man? In this story we find, again, elements of the shamanistic experience: dream-time, shape-shifting, flying, communication with non-human realms of being.

No one knows what Zhuangzi’s answer to his question was. What we do know is that even though historically the era of the Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors – with its shamanistic world-view and practices --- may be past, its mythological resonance is still palpable, and its essence quite alive, within the traditions of TAOIST WORSHIP AND PRACTICE OF TODAY.

Perhaps the Taoists are really shamans, just dreaming that they’re Taoists? [3]

Chinese Gods

People worshipped many different gods in ancient China. Some of these gods have been worshipped since the Shang Dynasty (about 1600 BC and 1046 BC). Other Chinese gods became popular later on.

Some of these gods are representations of the weather or natural forces like the sun or the moon or the rain or floods or drought. For instance, the goddess Ba, the daughter of Heaven, is a personification of drought (she's what drought would look like, if drought were a person.). Yu-huang is a sky god, and Fei Lian and Feng Po Po are wind gods. Lei-Kung and Lei-zi are the gods of thunder and lightning. Heng O is the moon goddess. Gong gong is the god of disastrous floods. Han is the god of the Han river - there were many such minor gods, each responsible for a particular river or mountain. Huo i is the god of millet, an important food in northern China..

Sometimes people made abstract ideas into gods, like Cai-shen, the god of prosperity, who you could pray to for success in business, for instance. Fan-kui is the god of butchers, and Sun-pi is the god of cobblers (shoe-makers). Fu-xing is the god of happiness, and Gong De Tian is the goddess of luck. Wei-tuo is the god of teaching.

Cheng-huang protects your city from enemies and brings rain for your crops, and help you get to Heaven after you die. Tsao Wang is the god of you hearth, who watches over your house. Every year he reports on how you have behaved and brings you good luck if you have been good and bad luck if you have been bad.

Some gods are based on Taoist ideas, like the eight gods of the Ba Xian (or Pa Hsein,) who represent eight ways of being human: baeing young, being old, being old being rich, being a peasant, being an aristocrat, being a boy, and being a girl. (The way these are organized into opposites reflects the Taoist idea of Yin and Yang.)

Other Taoist gods include Bixia Yuanjin, the goddess of dawn and childbirth, and Chu Jiang, a god of the dead in the underworld. Some are based on great victorious generals, actual men who were remembered in this way. Kuan-Ti, the Taoist god of war, was a real general of the Han Dynasty.

Some Chinese gods are great Buddhists of the past, who are now in Heaven. Dha-shi-zhi, for example, broke the cycle of reincarnation with her great love, and now welcomes souls to Heaven in the form of flowers. Di-Cang is a great Buddhist who releases the souls of the dead from the underworld. Kuan-Yin is a goddess of Mercy, who helps childless women.[4]

(The origins of the Chinese religion,Taoism, definitely goes back long before recorded Chinese history, even long before the Shang Dynasty (1600-1046 BCE.) It is entirely based on early primitive shamanistic ritual worship based on early man's relationship with his natural environment and the extremities of the forces of nature. The early Chinese believed in a polytheistic worship, attributing each physical force under the control of a different deity. These early Chinese/Taoist gods and the ritual worship certainly pre-dates the Shang Dynasty and embraces the ancient practices of ancient Chinese shamanism, and it certainly pre-dates the philosophies of K'ung-fu-tzu, Lao Tzu, Mencius, Zhuangzi and many others by many hundreds of years. But these latter philosophers, mentioned, have had their influence and input into the religious life of China and Taoism by the absorption of some of the moral ethics from these philosophers, but the input of these sages were as moral/ethical philosophers rather than as prophets or strictly religious philosophers. This distinction differs from the input of prophets in the Abrahamic religions where their revelations were from god.
The purpose of this essay is to clarify the confusion of the origins of Chinese religion and to appreciate where it came from and how.

In order to get a proper perspective of the evolution of Chinese religious ideologies and observe the input of non-religious and semi-religious philosophies into Taoism, it is essential to get a proper perspective to the time scale of events. Bearing in mind that the origins of Taoism is based on early shamanistic traditions and rituals going back to pre-recorded Chinese history, i.e. approximately more than 5000 years ago, let us put into context the time line of ancient Chinese philosophers: )
Buddhist (Hindu) Philosophy and its Influence

Buddhism in China: Beginnings

Buddhism first reached China from India roughly 2,000 years ago, during the Han Dynasty. Han Dynasty China was deeply Confucian, and Confucianism is focused on maintaining harmony and social order in the here-and-now world. Buddhism, on the other hand, emphasized entering the monastic life to seek a reality beyond reality. Confucian China was not terribly friendly to Buddhism.

However, Buddhism found an ally in China's other indigenous religion, Taoism. Taoist and Buddhist meditation practices and philosophies were similar in many respects, and some Chinese took an interest in Buddhism from a Taoist perspective. Early translations of Buddhist texts from Sanskrit into Chinese borrowed Taoist terminology. Still, during the Han Dynasty very few Chinese practised Buddhism.
Buddhism in China: Early Gains and Losses

The Han Dynasty fell in 220, beginning a period of social and political chaos in China. The northern part of China was overrun by non-Chinese tribes, and the southern part was ruled by a succession of weak dynasties. This chaos also weakened the hold of Confucianism among the ruling class.

In south China, a kind of "gentry Buddhism" became popular among educated Chinese that stressed learning and philosophy. The elite of Chinese society freely associated with the growing number of Buddhist monks and scholars. The dialog between Buddhism and Taoism continued, and the Taoist influence caused the Chinese to favour Mahayana over Theravada Buddhism.

In north China, Buddhist monks who were masters of divination became advisers to rulers of the "barbarian" tribes. Some of these rulers became Buddhists and supported monasteries and the ongoing work of translating the Sanskrit texts into Chinese. This separation of north and south China caused Buddhism to develop into northern and southern schools in China.

In the 5th century, the Wei dynasty of northern China absorbed the other tribes, and by 440 it controlled all of northern China. In 446 the Wei ruler, Emperor Taiwu, began a brutal suppression of Buddhism -- all Buddhist temples, texts and art were to be destroyed, and the monks were to be executed. At least some part of the northern sangha hid from authorities and escaped execution, however.

Taiwu died in 452; his successor, Emperor Wencheng, ended the suppression and began a restoration of Buddhism that included sculpting of the magnificent grottoes of Yungang. [7]


Is Buddhism a Religion or a Hindu Philosophy?

It is neither a religion in the sense in which that word is commonly understood, for it is not "A SYSTEM OF FAITH AND WORSHIP OWING ANY ALLEGIANCE TO A SUPERNATURAL BEING."

BUDDHISM DOES NOT DEMAND BLIND FAITH FROM ITS ADHERENTS. Here mere belief is dethroned and is substituted by confidence based on knowledge, which, in Pali, is known as saddha. The confidence placed by a follower on the Buddha is like that of a sick person in a noted physician, or a student in his teacher. A Buddhist seeks refuge in the Buddha because it was he who discovered the path of deliverance.

A Buddhist does not seek refuge in the Buddha with the hope that he will be saved by his (i.e. the Buddha's own) personal purification. The Buddha gives no such guarantee. It is not within the power of a Buddha to wash away the impurities of others. One could neither purify nor defile another. The Buddha, as teacher, instructs us, but we ourselves are directly responsible for our purification. Although a Buddhist seeks refuge in the Buddha, he does not make any self-surrender. Nor does a Buddhist sacrifice his freedom of thought by becoming a follower of the Buddha. He can exercise his own free will and develop his knowledge even to the extent of becoming a Buddha himself.

The starting point of Buddhism is reasoning or understanding, or, in the Pali words, samma-ditthi.

To the seekers of truth the Buddha says:

"Do not accept anything on (mere) hearsay -- (i.e., thinking that thus have we heard it for a long time). Do not accept anything by mere tradition -- (i.e., thinking that it has thus been handed down through many generations). Do not accept anything on account of mere rumours -- (i.e., by believing what others say without any investigation). Do not accept anything just because it accords with your scriptures. Do not accept anything by mere suppositions. Do not accept anything by mere inference. Do not accept anything by merely considering the reasons. Do not accept anything merely because it agrees with your pre-conceived notions. Do not accept anything merely because it seems acceptable -- (i.e., thinking that as the speaker seems to be a good person his words should be accepted). Do not accept anything thinking that the ascetic is respected by us (therefore it is right to accept his word).

"But when you know for yourselves -- these things are immoral, these things are blameworthy, these things are censured by the wise, these things, when performed and undertaken conduce to ruin and sorrow -- then indeed do you reject them.

(Buddhists know,) "When you know for yourselves -- these things are moral, these things are blameless, these things are praised by the wise, these things, when performed and undertaken, conduce to well-being and happiness -- then do you live acting accordingly."

(In order to achieve Nirvana. This certainly sounds like "moral philosophy.")

These inspiring words of the Buddha still retain their original force and freshness.

Though there is no blind faith, one might argue whether there is no worshipping of images etc., in Buddhism.

Buddhists do not worship any image (or any representation of any god or Buddha) expecting worldly or spiritual favours, but pay their reverence to that it (Buddhist philosophy) represents.

(This clearly identifies that Buddhism is non-Theist therefore can only be a "moral philosophy.")

An understanding Buddhist, in offering flowers and incense to an image, designedly makes himself feel that he is in the presence of the living Buddha and thereby gains inspiration from his noble personality and breathes deep his boundless compassion. He tries to follow the Buddha's noble example.

The Bo-tree is also a symbol of Enlightenment. These external objects of reverence are not absolutely necessary, but they are useful as they tend to concentrate one's attention. An intellectual person could dispense with them as he could easily focus his attention and visualize the Buddha. For our own good, and out of gratitude, we pay such external respect but what the Buddha expects from his disciple is not so much obeisance as the actual observance of his Teachings. The Buddha says -- "He honors me best who practices my teaching best." "He who sees the Dhamma sees me."

With regard to images, however, Count Kevserling remarks -- "I see nothing more grand in this world than the image of the Buddha. It is an absolutely perfect embodiment of spirituality in the visible domain."

(Kevserling's remarks suggest that the "image of Buddha" is the subconscious human concept of their object of worship, a figurative god even when Buddhist doctrines does not recognise any image for worship.)

Furthermore, it must be mentioned that there are no petition or intercessory prayers in Buddhism. However much we may pray to the Buddha we cannot be saved. The Buddha does not grant favours to those who pray to him. Instead of petition prayers there is meditation that leads to self-control, purification and enlightenment. Meditation is neither a silent reverie nor keeping the mind blank. It is an active striving. It serves as a tonic both to the heart and the mind. The Buddha not only speaks of the futility of offering prayers but also disparages a slave mentality. A Buddhist should not pray to be saved, but should rely on himself and win his freedom.

"Prayers take the character of private communications, selfish bargaining with God. It seeks for objects of earthly ambitions and inflames the sense of self. Meditation on the other hand is self-change." -- Sri Radhakrishnan.

In Buddhism there is not, as in most other religions, an Almighty God to be obeyed and feared. The Buddha does not believe in a cosmic potentate, omniscient and omnipresent. In Buddhism there are no divine revelations or divine messengers. A Buddhist is, therefore, not subservient to any higher supernatural power which controls his destinies and which arbitrarily rewards and punishes. Since Buddhists do not believe in revelations of a divine being Buddhism does not claim the monopoly of truth and does not condemn any other religion. But Buddhism recognizes the infinite latent possibilities of man and teaches that man can gain deliverance from suffering by his own efforts independent of divine help or mediating priests.

Buddhism cannot, therefore, strictly be called a religion because it is neither a system of faith and worship, nor "the outward act or form by which men indicate their recognition of the existence of a God or gods having power over their own destiny to whom obedience, service, and honour are due."
(But) If, by religion, is meant "a teaching which takes a view of life that is more than superficial, a teaching which looks into life and not merely at it, a teaching which furnishes men with a guide to conduct that is in accord with this its in-look, a teaching which enables those who give it heed to face life with fortitude and death with serenity," or a system to get rid of the ills of life, then it is certainly (possibly) a religion of religions.[8]


CONFUCIANISM

Confucianism is a Chinese ethical and philosophical system developed from the teachings of the Chinese philosopher Confucius (Kǒng Fūzǐ, or K'ung-fu-tzu, lit. "Master Kong", 551–478 BC). Confucianism originated as an "ethical-sociopolitical teaching" during the "Spring and Autumn Period," but later developed metaphysical and cosmological elements in the Han Dynasty. Following the abandonment of "Legalism" in China after the Qin Dynasty. Confucianism became "the official state ideology" (not religion) of China, until it was reolaced by the "Three Principles of the People" ideology with the establishment of the Republic of China, and then Maoist Communism after the Republic of China was replaced by the "People's Republic of China across Mainland China.
The core of Confucianism is "HUMANISM," the belief that human being are teachable, improvable and perfectible through personal and communal endeavour especially including self-cultivation and self-creation. Confucianism focuses on the cultivation of virtue and maintenance of ethics, the most basic of which are ren, yi, and li.


Ren is an obligation of altruism and humaneness for other individuals within a community.
Yi is the upholding of righteousness and the moral disposition to do good.
Li is a system of norms and propriety that determines how a person should act within a community.

Confucianism holds that one should give up one's life, if necessary, either passively or actively, for the sake of upholding the cardinal moral values of ren and yi.

Confucianism is Humanistic and Non-Theistic, and does not involve a belief in the supernatural or in a personal god.

On spirituality, Confucius said to Chi Lu, one of his students, that "You are not yet able to serve men, how can you serve spirits?"
Attributes that may be seen as religious---such as "ancestor worship, ritual, and sacrifice---were advocated by Confucius as necessary for social harmony; however, these attributes can be traced to the traditional non-Confucian Chinese beliefs of "Chinese folk religion (shamanism), and are also practised by Daoist and Chinese Buddhist. Using strict definitions of religion, Confucianism has been described as a " science of moral philosophy" and not a religion. But, Confucianism could be described as a "sociopolitical doctrine" having religious qualities. However there will be some who will integrate Confucianism philosophies with rituals from other religions and treat it as a religion, erroneously of course. Such is the nature of man.

(Thus we see that the void of a deeper religious philosophy in early Taoism was complimented by the early Chinese philosophers (Confucius) as well as the moral philosophy of Buddhism introduced during the Han Dynasty. So on the foundations of the ancient Taoist gods of shamanism and its rituals was imposed varying ethical and moral philosophies of Chinese sages of old. This is the reason there exists a vague demarcation between religious philosophy as related to revelations from god, and that of moral or ethical philosophy as espoused by moral philosophers.)

REFLECTIONS OF CHINESE RELIGIONS
Although the basis of the Chinese culture is based on her religion, her philosophies, her customs and values of life, her governance, her educational system, yet there seems to be vagueness about Chinese religious doctrines, based on the article above. There are many who claim that their religious beliefs are Confucianism or Buddhism. My immediate reaction is, "Is it possible to worship a moral philosophy without the concept of a supernatural being, a god?" It would certainly be difficult for those brought up with Abrahamic faiths to conceive. It would be like, "Admiring and worshipping the American Constitution, or Worshipping the Universal Declaration of Human Rights or worshipping the Communist Manifesto, and claiming that they are worshipping that concept or philosophy and labelling it as a religious belief." I agree, there are those who treat they loyalty to those concepts as though it were a matter of life or death, but it does not qualify such ideologies as religious ideologies. So it would appear that there is a vagueness and misconception of what constitutes a conventional concept of a religion and that of a "conviction."

When someone says, "His religion is Confucianism, what does he really mean?" Does he worship and pray to "the philosophy of Confucius" or "to K'ung Fu Tzu" or possibly has in mind, "Yu-huang" or "Lei-Kung" or "Kuan-Yin" who are all gods and goddesses of the ancient Shamanistic religions of ancient China? So there is some overlapping of concepts of Confucianism and Shamanism. Do Confucian pray to a god or to no god? Do they even pray?


Similarly, the same applies to Buddhism. Do Buddhists pray to the "moral philosophy of Buddha," "to the spirit of Siddhārtha Gautama," to the image of "The Buddha," or visualise mentally the gods, "Yu-huang," "Lei-Kung," or "Kuan-Yin," who are all gods and goddessess of Shamanism.

What is portrayed in the Temples, and what is instilled in the minds of the people through their educational, and cultural exposure is a vague and unmapped region of the Chinese culture. There is no doubt that this vagueness exists from various discussions with people who have expressed their beliefs. There must exist millions of different perceptions of religions in the country as the permutations and combinations of the different mixtures and combinations of philosophies exists in China. The rituals and beliefs of various Temples too will vary considerably from one another.

So when we discuss religious beliefs in China we are discussing a very complex issue with Chinese religious beliefs and ritual going back over 5000 years. It would be folly to attempt to compare or equate Chinese religions with that of the Abrahamic religions. The basis and origins are entirely different.

http://knol.google.com/k/mbp-lee/-/1l23x9udotn1a/158#view

[LoveNStrife]

http://knol.google.com/k/mbp-lee/-/1l23x9udotn1a/158#view

If I were you, I would not trust "online articles" too easily. The best course is to read the Classics themselves.

The article says, "Confucianism is Humanistic and Non-Theistic, and does not involve a belief in the supernatural or in a personal god."

However, The Analects says,

子曰：“天生德於予，桓魋其如予何？”

Mencius says,

彼一時，此一時也。五百年必有王者興，其間必有名世者。由周而來，七百有餘歲矣。以其數則過矣，以其時考之則可矣。夫天，未欲平治天下也；如欲平治天下，當今之世，舍我其誰也？吾何為不豫哉？

The Book of Odes says,

上帝臨女、無貳爾心。

The Doctrine of the Mean says,

子曰：“鬼神之為德，其盛矣乎！視之而弗見，聽之而弗聞，體物而不可遺。使天下之人齊明盛服，以承祭祀，洋洋乎如在其上，如在其左右。《詩》曰：‘神之格思，不可度思！矧可射思！’夫微之顯，誠之不可掩如此夫。”

The Book of Filial Piety says,

子曰：“昔者明王事父孝，故事天明；事母孝，故事地察；長幼順，故上下治。天地明察，神明彰矣。故雖天子，必有尊也，言有父也；必有先也，言有兄也。宗廟致敬，不忘親也；修身慎行，恐辱先也。宗廟致敬，鬼神著矣。孝悌之至，通於神明，光於四海，無所不通。《詩》云：‘自西自東，自南自北，無思不服。’”

The article, in my view, is misleading with regard to all three religions. The explanation given for Buddhism is popular amongst Westerners, but is inaccurate with regard to Chinese Buddhism.

Mainstream Chinese Buddhism is deeply religious. The belief in Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, heavens and hells is quite literal. Furthermore, almost every work in the Mahayana Buddhist Canon prescribes mantras for specific situations. One of the most popular Chinese Buddhist work, for instance, is 楞严经, which contains one of the longest mantras in the Canon.

With regard to the quote in the article on "未能事人，焉能事鬼", in fact the 宋明理学 explanation is the opposite of the article's interpretation. In Zhuxi's commentary, it is interpreted as 幽明相通，生死不二. Furthermore, the quote specifically refers to spirits rather than God. This is an important distinction to make. God, also 天 or 上帝, is radically different from spirits, or 鬼神, in Confucian Classics.

This post has been edited by LoveNStrife: Sep 23 2011, 05:49 AM

[babalaksa]

Hi Love, can you share that in english please.

[LoveNStrife]

Hi Love, can you share that in english please.

Sure, but not right now, because I have to go to sleep.

If you're interested, you can message me too.

Another thing wrong with the article is that it takes Hinayana Buddhism as the norm. As we all know, Chinese Buddhism consists of two main schools, Pureland Buddhism and Chan Buddhism. Pureland Buddhism teaches that we humans are unable to reach salvation by ourselves, but must rely on the grace of Amitabha Buddha. Grace is obtained from Amitabha Buddha through faith.

I'm not personally familiar with the theology of Pureland Buddhism, but one can see how the article is misleading with regard to Chinese Buddhism.

This post has been edited by LoveNStrife: Sep 23 2011, 05:53 AM

[LoveNStrife]

Hi Love, can you share that in english please.

The following are the quotes in order (Legge translation):

The Master said, "Heaven produced the virtue that is in me. Huan Tui - what can he do to me?"

...

That was one time, and this is another. It is a rule that a true royal sovereign should arise in the course of five hundred years, and that during that time there should be men illustrious in their generation. From the commencement of the Zhou dynasty till now, more than seven hundred years have elapsed. Judging numerically, the date is past. Examining the character of the present time, we might expect the rise of such individuals in it. But Heaven does not yet wish that the kingdom should enjoy tranquillity and good order. If it wished this, who is there besides me to bring it about? How should I be otherwise than dissatisfied?

...

'God is with you, ' [said Shang-fu to the king],
'Have no doubts in your heart. '

...

The Master said, "How abundantly do spiritual beings display the powers that belong to them! We look for them, but do not see them; we listen to, but do not hear them; yet they enter into all things, and there is nothing without them. They cause all the people in the kingdom to fast and purify themselves, and array themselves in their richest dresses, in order to attend at their sacrifices. Then, like overflowing water, they seem to be over the heads, and on the right and left of their worshippers. It is said in the Book of Poetry, 'The approaches of the spirits, you cannot sunrise; and can you treat them with indifference?' Such is the manifestness of what is minute! Such is the impossibility of repressing the outgoings of sincerity!"

...

The Master said, "Anciently, the intelligent kings served their fathers with filial piety, and therefore they served Heaven with intelligence. They served their mothers with filial piety, and therefore they served Earth with discrimination. They pursued the right course with reference to their (own) seniors and juniors, and therefore they secured the regulation of the relations between superiors and inferiors (throughout the kingdom). When Heaven and Earth were served with intelligence and discrimination, the spiritual intelligences displayed (their retributive power).
Therefore even the Son of Heaven must have some whom he honors; that is, he has his uncles of his surname. He must have some to whom he concedes the precedence; that is, he has his cousins, who bear the same surname and are older than himself. In the ancestral temple he manifests the utmost reverence, showing that he does not forget his parents. He cultivates his person and is careful of his conduct, fearing lest he should disgrace his predecessors. When in the ancestral temple he exhibits the utmost reverence, the spirits of the departed manifest themselves. Perfect filial piety and fraternal duty reach to (and move) the spiritual intelligences and diffuse their light on all within the four seas. They penetrate everywhere.
It is said in the Book of Poetry: From the west to the east, From the south to the north, There was not a thought but did him homage."

...

The following is the quote from the article:

Ji Lu asked about serving the spirits of the dead. The Master said, "While you are not able to serve men, how can you serve their spirits?" Ji Lu added, "I venture to ask about death?" He was answered, "While you do not know life, how can you know about death?"

The article interprets this as some sort of agnosticism or atheism. However, the School of Principle in fact interprets this in the opposite way - The same principles govern men and spirits, life and death. Therefore, if one understands men and life, then one will understand spirits and death.

Proof:

蓋幽明始終，初無二理，但學之有序，不可躐等，故夫子告之如此。程子曰：“晝夜者，死生之道也。知生之道，則知死之道；盡事人之道，則盡事鬼之道。死生人鬼，一而二，二而一者也。或言夫子不告子路，不知此乃所以深告之也。”

As to darkness and clarity, beginning and ending, they do not differ in terms of principle. However, there is an order to learning - One should not jump ahead before one is ready. Therefore, the Master (Confucius) taught Zi Lu in this way. Master Cheng said, "The Way of Life and Death is like day and night. If one knows the Way of Life, then one knows the Way of Death. To fulfill the Way of Serving Humans is also to fulfill the Way of Serving Spirits. Life and death, humans and spirits, they are one yet two, two yet one. (E.g. They appear different, but are one in terms of principle.) Some say, the Master (Confucius) did not teach Zi Lu. They don't understand that by speaking to Zi Lu in this way, the Master taught him deeply.

(My translation)

This post has been edited by LoveNStrife: Sep 23 2011, 06:12 AM

[babalaksa]

Thanks!

[elleX0]

It is not the Buddhism that Siddharta Gautama taught. So it is a modified Buddhism or a corrupted Buddhism or a Chinese Buddhism. The different schools of Buddhism mean that there has been a deviation from the original.

[chutzpah]

If I were you, I would not trust "online articles" too easily.

Actually that article is written by someone probably elleXO knows very well and it would have been well researched prior to it's publication on the Internet.

It is not the Buddhism that Siddharta Gautama taught. So it is a modified Buddhism or a corrupted Buddhism or a Chinese Buddhism. The different schools of Buddhism mean that there has been a deviation from the original.

Quite, it is a deviation, another heresy of Buddhism if you like.

[LoveNStrife]

Actually that article is written by someone probably elleXO knows very well and it would have been well researched prior to it's publication on the Internet.

Quite, it is a deviation, another heresy of Buddhism if you like.

Well, if you think you know better, why don't you prove it through actually discussing the Classics.

The best book on Confucianism in English is of course "The Religious Dimensions of Confucianism". I highly recommend that, instead of some random online article. It's quite clear from the article that the author does not know what she's talking about with regard to Chinese religions.

As for Pureland Buddhism, it's no more a heresy than Catholicism is a heresy of Christianity. The article purports to talk about Chinese religions. Therefore, it should talk about Chinese Buddhism rather than some imagined form of Buddhism.

Actually, I noted another thing really odd with the article. How come the description of Chinese Buddhist history ends suddenly in the fifth century (especially since most major developments in Chinese Buddhism came after). This article really seems like a badly-done junior high project...

Another thing, the Buddhist Scripture quoted aren't even the ones commonly in use in China...

Also, why did the author randomly quote Sri Radhakrishnan? How is that at all relevant?

I don't think I would be going too far if I said the author doesn't read or write Chinese. She's not a good researcher, either, because there are so many good resources on Chinese Buddhism in English, and she seems unaware of any of them.

...

It is quite clear what has happened here - The author was supposed to write an essay on Chinese religions. Knowing that Buddhism is a Chinese religion, she found a general introduction on Buddhism, supposing it to suffice for Chinese Buddhism. This is no different than if someone was supposed to write an article on Iranian religions (where Shiism is dominant), but ended up giving a coarse outline of Sunnism.

She could have talked about historical development of Chinese Buddhist schools like Tiantai and Huayan. She could have talked about popular schools like Pureland and Chan. If I were a prof, I would fail her, because her essay has nothing to do with Chinese Buddhism.

...

Actually, after reading the article again, I know which resources she used for her description of Daoism. Her description of Daoism is somewhat misleading, too.

...

子曰：“道聽而塗說，德之棄也。”

The Master said, "To tell, as we go along, what we have heard on the way, is to cast away our virtue."

子曰：“由！誨女知之乎？知之為知之，不知為不知，是知也。”

The Master said, "You, shall I teach you what knowledge is? When you know a thing, to hold that you know it; and when you do not know a thing, to allow that you do not know it - this is knowledge."

With regard to religion especially, one should not speak lightly. Instead of trafficking in hearsay and speculations, one should investigate the Classics for oneself. This is the only way to approach the Way of the Former Kings and the Sages.

Suppose one does not know Chinese or Classical Chinese, that is fine, too. The Legge translation of the Four Books is sufficient as an introduction to Confucianism. Many Chinese Buddhist texts have fine English translations. Pureland Buddhism has several exponents in English.

This post has been edited by LoveNStrife: Sep 23 2011, 12:38 PM

[elleX0]

As the Title of the article says, I am looking at the origins of Chinese religions and the influence of other "philosophies" on the original "peoples religion". I am not discussing Buddhism, Confucianism, or Taoism, in particular. If you want to discuss "Chinese Buddhism" in particular, then be free to start a new thread.

[LoveNStrife]

As the Title of the article says, I am looking at the origins of Chinese religions and the influence of other "philosophies" on the original "peoples religion". I am not discussing Buddhism, Confucianism, or Taoism, in particular. If you want to discuss "Chinese Buddhism" in particular, then be free to start a new thread.

I'm not clear on what you mean by "origins of Chinese religions". Do you mean Zhou Dynasty religious practices? I'm also not clear on what you mean by 'other "philosophies" on the original "people's religion"'.

The article is divided into several parts, three of which are Buddhism, Confucianism, and Daoism.

The characterisation of Confucianism is misleading, too. I support parts of what the author said about Daoism - for instance, the view that Zhuangzi drew on the resources of ancient shamanism.

The author characterised 礼 as social norms. This is incomplete, though not completely wrong. The best explanation of 礼 is found in 礼运:

言偃復問曰：“如此乎禮之急也？”孔子曰：“夫禮，先王以承天之道，以治人之情。故失之者死，得之者生。《詩》曰：‘相鼠有體，人而無禮；人而無禮，胡不遄死？’是故夫禮，必本於天，殽於地，列於鬼神，達於喪祭、射御、冠昏、朝聘。故聖人以禮示之，故天下國家可得而正也。”

Yan Yan again asked, 'Are the rules of Propriety indeed of such urgent importance?' Confucius said, 'It was by those rules that the ancient kings sought to represent the ways of Heaven, and to regulate the feelings of men. Therefore he who neglects or violates them may be (spoken of) as dead, and he who observes them, as alive. It is said in the Book of Poetry, "Look at a rat-how small its limbs and fine! Then mark the course that scorns the proper line. Propriety's neglect may well provoke; A wish the man would quickly court death's stroke." Therefore those rules are rooted in heaven, have their correspondencies in earth, and are applicable to spiritual beings. They extend to funeral rites, sacrifices, archery, chariot-driving, capping, marriage, audiences, and friendly missions. Thus the sages made known these rules, and it became possible for the kingdom, with its states and clans, to reach its correct condition.' (Legge translation)

This post has been edited by LoveNStrife: Sep 23 2011, 02:58 PM

[elleX0]

The article is divided into several parts, three of which are Buddhism, Confucianism, and Daoism.

The characterisation of Confucianism is misleading, too. I support parts of what the author said about Daoism - for instance, the view that Zhuangzi drew on the resources of ancient shamanism.

I'm not clear on what you mean by "origins of Chinese religions". Do you mean Zhou Dynasty religious practices? I'm also not clear on what you mean by 'other "philosophies" on the original "people's religion"'.

What I tried to say was that all those ancient Taoist gods came from before the Shang Dynasty and probably was worshipped even before "recorded history" during the Shaman period of China, or even before. That was the true basis of the Taoist worship and rituals. Later it was influenced by newer philosophies, but the basic concept of those shamanistic gods remained throughout Chinese history and culture.
The introduced philosophies include that of Confucius, Lao Tzu and so on, including Buddhism, but the underlying folk religion of those ancient gods pre-dates all these newer philosophies and bears a great influence on Chinese culture even today. Surely even your generation will know about these ancient pre-Shang Dynasty gods despite the revolution.

This post has been edited by elleX0: Sep 23 2011, 03:04 PM

[LoveNStrife]

What I tried to say was that all those ancient Taoist gods came from before the Shang Dynasty and probably was worshipped even before "recorded history" during the Shaman period of China, or even before. That was the true basis of the Taoist worship and rituals. Later it was influenced by newer philosophies, but the basic concept of those shamanistic gods remained throughout Chinese history and culture.
The introduced philosophies include that of Confucius, Lao Tzu and so on, including Buddhism, but the underlying folk religion of those ancient gods pre-dates all these newer philosophies and bears a great influence on Chinese culture even today. Surely even you generation know about these ancient gods despite the revolution.

Some Daoists gods came before the Shang Dynasty.

Yes, I would agree with you that many elements of Chinese folk religion can be traced back to the Shang Dynasty. Confucianism and Daoism would make no sense without the context of the religious practices of the Three Dynasties.

This post has been edited by LoveNStrife: Sep 23 2011, 03:05 PM

[elleX0]

Some Daoists gods came before the Shang Dynasty.

Yes, I would agree with you that many elements of Chinese folk religion can be traced back to the Shang Dynasty. Confucianism and Daoism would make no sense without the context of the religious practices of the Three Dynasties.

LNS, I am glad that you have finally seen what I was trying to say in that article about the "Origins of the Taoist gods and its lasting effects on Taoism and Buddhism" and you agree with it. I have raised the subject because I believe that many people simply take those ancient gods for granted and have never stopped to think how were they created or during which period were they conceived. Those gods predate Confucius.

Since you have indicated that you have read Buddhist scriptures and know about Chinese Buddhism, why don't you write about, "Chinese Buddhism vs. The original Buddhism of Siddharta Gautama." It would be a fascinating and informative subject matter for religious historians.

[LoveNStrife]

LNS, I am glad that you have finally seen what I was trying to say in that article about the "Origins of the Taoist gods and its lasting effects on Taoism and Buddhism" and you agree with it. I have raised the subject because I believe that many people simply take those ancient gods for granted and have never stopped to think how were they created or during which period were they conceived. Those gods predate Confucius.

Since you have indicated that you have read Buddhist scriptures and know about Chinese Buddhism, why don't you write about, "Chinese Buddhism vs. The original Buddhism of Siddharta Gautama." It would be a fascinating and informative subject matter for religious historians.

Well, I think you raise an important point. The Confucian Classics in fact make no sense without the context of Zhou Dynasty religion. Confucius added a new layer of explanation to the existing tradition rather than "transforming" or "abolishing" it.

Daoism is also rooted in the shamanic tradition of ancient China. The best book for this is of course Eva Wong's introduction. I suspect the author of your article used her book as a reference.

I know only a bit about Chinese Buddhism - e.g. the main schools and their main doctrines. Someone more qualified should do the article.

This post has been edited by LoveNStrife: Sep 24 2011, 03:09 AM

[elleX0]

Well, I think you raise an important point. The Confucian Classics in fact make no sense without the context of Zhou Dynasty religion. Confucius added a new layer of explanation to the existing tradition rather than "transforming" or "abolishing" it.

Daoism is also rooted in the shamanic tradition of ancient China. The best book for this is of course Eva Wong's introduction. I suspect the author of your article used her book as a reference.

I know only a bit about Chinese Buddhism - e.g. the main schools and their main doctrines. Someone more qualified should do the article.

Some people claim that culture, history, religion are subjects that are so boring. And the more I read about it the more fascinated I am with it. This is especially so when you relate the understanding of culture with the misunderstandings and the conflicts we have today.

People fear, and hate China and the Chinese people, because of ignorance of their history and culture. The Chinese people in return are suspicious and fear foreigners because they do not understand them nor their intent. So open and honest discussing such topics, often having to join up the dots over centuries, helps to show clearly the whole tapestry and creates for better understanding. But let me stress, this better understand does NOT NECESSARILY GUARANTEE HARMONY OR PEACE. But it helps people to understand the problem and to be better able to counteract it. It could even help some people to understand themselves better.

You will find on this site, that some may even accuse some of us of being a "Sinophobe" or a "democratophobe" or a "Islamophobe" etc., because we discuss these topics openly and honestly. But until we thoroughly understand these topics, any opinions we express must necessarily be prejudiced. But those who have studied their subject matter thoroughly have no fear for telling as it is, the truth. But there will be many who will not want to hear the truth, because it will destroy their "controlled minds" and therefore turn a deaf ear to that information. But that does not matter so long as the information is available to those who might be receptive.

Until we understand a problem thoroughly, we can never be able to find a solution to it. For example, The Palestinian Problems, or The Economic Problems Facing the West, or The Xinjiang Problem, or The Tibet Problem, or the Taiwan Problem, or the Threat of Islamisation of the West. All these problems have complex roots, often not understood by the Political Leaders because they are ignorant of the fundamental problems. That is why we bother to post and discuss these problems here.

PS: regarding the Xinjiang problem, how many people (percentage) really understand the Muslim threat in that state, including the PRC leaders? I bet very, very few people in the whole of China really understands Islam. This is a very A Serious Question. If they do not understand their own Taoist gods how can they understand Allah?

This post has been edited by elleX0: Sep 24 2011, 04:56 AM

[reutty]

Until we understand a problem thoroughly, we can never be able to find a solution to it. For example, The Palestinian Problems, or The Economic Problems Facing the West, or The Xinjiang Problem, or The Tibet Problem, or the Taiwan Problem, or the Threat of Islamisation of the West. All these problems have complex roots, often not understood by the Political Leaders because they are ignorant of the fundamental problems. That is why we bother to post and discuss these problems here.

PS: regarding the Xinjiang problem, how many people (percentage) really understand the Muslim threat in that state, including the PRC leaders? I bet very, very few people in the whole of China really understands Islam. This is a very A Serious Question. If they do not understand their own Taoist gods how can they understand Allah?

elle0x admits he is not chinese, but british. He is trying to project his islamophobia onto chinese. I've noticed this troll has repeatedly pospted articles about Qaradhawi and saying he is extremist etc.

What this troll doesn't realize is that Sheikh Qaradawi praised Chinese rule in Xinjiang, and Islamist uyghurs were screaming about him
on the islamic awakenign forum

we don't have a problem with arabs, we have a problem with Uyghurs. Stop projecting your islamophobia onto us.

http://za.chineseembassy.org/eng/zxxx/t575862.htm
http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90776/90883/6713827.html

The recent riot in Urumqi, capital of China's Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region, was a "great turbulence" and greater casualties would have been caused if the Chinese government had not taken decisive measures, Syria's Mufti Ahmed Badr Al-Deen Hasson said Tuesday.

"Killing each other under the name of tribes is a horrible matter," Hasson said in an interview with Xinhua.

"We have to make the Chinese youth aware of the reality that you are one nation. China has achieved a great progress recently by respecting the religious beliefs," he said.

The Mufti recalled his visit to China last October.

"When I was visiting the Ningxia Hui Autonomous Region, I felt that Muslims are always happy and have no problems," Hasson said.

Hasson added that China respects Muslims, who he said should "make this country advance in the fields of agriculture and industry and not believe rumors coming from outside China."

there was a uyghur on the islamicawakening forum, who was screaming and complaining about how the Arab sheikh were supporting Chinese rule in Xinjiang

http://forums.islamicawakening.com/f20/yus...-can-not-47438/

this arab sheik is prasiing Chinese rule in xinjiang, a uyghur posted this video in order to attack him on other forums.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBihfk_1qOU

Also, Palestinian christians deeply hate Israel. The "palestinian problem" has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with Jews squatting on a land Arabs consider to be theirs, that includes arab muslims AND christians.

[kibosh]

reutty is a stupid muslim arab lover. you are stupid Sheikh Qaradawi is a master terrorist and teach islamic terrorist so you dont know sh!t about muslims or islam!

Sheik Yusuf al-Qaradawi: Theologian of Terror Biography

Posted: February 2, 2009




Early Relationship with the Muslim Brotherhood



Qaradawi, born in Egypt in 1926, graduated from Al Azhar University in Cairo. In 1942, during his time as a student, Qaradawi signed membership papers formally joining the Muslim Brotherhood, an Islamic extremist movement founded in Egypt that has spawned and inspired global terrorist groups, including the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas.



He was arrested several times by Egyptian government authorities between 1949 and 1961 due of his activities with the Muslim Brotherhood. In 1951, Qaradawi toured Egypt giving political speeches in support of Brotherhood candidates for the parliamentary elections that year. Egypt banned the Muslim Brotherhood in 1954 because of its opposition to the Egyptian government.



In 1961, Qaradawi moved to Qatar, where he currently resides. Despite his departure from Egypt, Qaradawi's theological influence on the Muslim Brotherhood continued. Qaradawi participated in developing the educational and cultural structure of the Brotherhood, publishing essays and books that were absorbed into the educational curriculum by its Tarbiyya (Education) Department. In addition, a number of Qaradawi's essays relating to Thaqafat ad-Da'iya (The Culture of the Preacher) were published in the Brotherhood magazine, Da'wa, during in the 1970s. Another of his books, at-Tarbiya al-Islamiyya wa Madrasat Hassan al-Banna (Islamic Education and Hassan al-Banna's school), published in 1979, was officially incorporated into the educational curriculum by the Brotherhood.



Although Qaradawi has built a media empire formally independent of the Muslim Brotherhood, he remains the premier spiritual guide to the Islamist movement. The Brotherhood offered Qaradawi their highest leadership position of "General Guide" in 1973, after the death of the group's second General Guide, Hassan Al-Hudaybi, which Qaradawi declined in 1976. Qaradawi declined the position again in 2002, following the death of organization's fifth General Guide Mustafa Mashhur.



Despite refusal to formally adopt the helm of the Brotherhood, Qaradawi maintains a close cooperation with the organization and its members. According to his memoirs, Ibn al-Qarya wa'l-Kuttab (Son of the Village and the Village Schools, vol. 2002, 2004, 2006). Qaradawi continues to regard Hassan al-Banna, the founder of the Brotherhood, as the teacher who had the most significant influence on him.



Qaradawi's Activities over Last Decade



Qaradawi has established a worldwide following through television appearances and by utilizing the Internet. He was relatively quick to take advantage of the Internet, launching a site in his name in 1997. The site includes several of his fatwas supporting terror. In 2006, Qaradawi used his Web site to denounce a Danish newspaper's cartoon of the Prophet Muhammad and declared February 3, 2006, an "international day of rage."



Qaradawi hosts a weekly television show called "Shariah and Life" on the Arabic-language television news network, Al Jazeera, where he also expresses his support for terror. For example, during an April 2004 show, he credited Allah with providing Palestinians "human bombs," instead of the planes, missiles and weapons that Zionists have. In addition, his Friday sermons at the Umar bin al-Khattab mosque, a government-sponsored mosque in Doha, have been regularly broadcast live on Qatar television. In a 2005 sermon, while speaking about notable Hamas leaders killed by Israel, Qaradawi asserted, "Their fate was paradise. They died martyrs. They met the death that every Muslim wishes for himself, which is martyrdom in the cause of God."



Qaradawi is also influential through a wide network of affiliations. In the U.S., he is the chairman (in abstenia) of the Michigan-based Islamic American University (IAU), a subsidiary of the Muslim American Society (MAS), according to the MAS Web site. The university aims to provide Islamic higher education, especially to converts and non-practicing Muslims, according to the IAU Web site. Qaradawi is also listed by the IAU as a faculty member.



Prior to being banned from the U.S. in 1999, Qaradawi reportedly spoke to several Muslim organizations around the country. For example, Qaradawi spoke at the now-defunct Muslim Arab Youth Association (MAYA) conference in Toledo, Ohio, in 1995, where he stated, "If everyone who defends his land and dies defending his sacred symbols is considered a terrorist, then I wish to be at the forefront of the terrorists. And I pray to Allah if that is terrorism, then O Allah make me live as a terrorist, die as a terrorist, and be raised up with the terrorists."



Despite the ban, Qaradawi's message still reaches the American public via satellite television and the Internet, in particular IslamOnline, a Web site published in both Arabic and English. The site contains articles and religious rulings which support violence against non-Muslims, as well as anti-Semitic, anti-Israel and anti-American content.



Recent Selected Books



Qaradawi has also written over 40 books, many of which have been published in different languages and disseminated throughout the world. In Qaradawi's Fiqh of Jihad, published in 2009, he chastises those Muslims who do not observe the obligatory duty of jihad, including violent jihad, and attempt to "cast a veil of oblivion on jihad and drop it from the life of the Ummah [the Muslim community]." In the introduction to the book, Qaradawi writes, "Without jihad, the Ummah's boundaries will be violated, the blood of its people will be as cheap as dust, its sanctuaries will be less worthy than a handful of desert sand, and it will be insignificant in the eyes of its enemies." A significant portion of the work is dedicated to legitimizing suicide bombing, or "martyrdom operations," which Qaradawi casts as a "defensive jihad against oppression." He encapsulates his view of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with anti-Semitic rhetoric, attesting that the "Zionist massacres of today" are a continuation of alleged Jewish calls to genocide in the Old Testament.



In another of his books, Fatawa' Min Ajl Falastin [Fatwas for the Sake of Palestine], published in 2003, Qaradawi provides a warning that Muslims should not befriend "Jews, in general, and Israelis, in particular" due to the current Palestinian-Israeli conflict. "Receiving enemies in our own countries and visiting them in the occupied lands," he writes, "would remove such a psychological barrier that keeps us away from them, and would bridge the gap that keeps the desire for Jihad against them kindled in the hearts of the Ummah."

[reutty]

kibosh, your a westerner. don't pretend to know **** about qaradawi.

Qaradawi is a politician. He only encourages jihad against the Jews in Israel. He does not against any other country. In Chechnya, he demanded that the mujahideen lay down their arms, and cooperate with pro Russian president Ramzan Kadyrov.

in China, he praised Chinese policy in Xinjiang, and some uyghurs were b*tch*ng about it on islamist forums.

He works for the qatari government. He works for a political agenda, not a religious agenda. all his religious rulings are justifications for political positions. Qatar wants to be friendly with Russia so it doesn't do dumb things like have sheikhs call for jihad in chechnya. arabs are against israel, of course, so its free for all in terms for sheikhs and imams to bash them.

[kibosh]

kibosh, your a westerner. don't pretend to know **** about qaradawi.

Qaradawi is a politician. He only encourages jihad against the Jews in Israel. He does not against any other country. In Chechnya, he demanded that the mujahideen lay down their arms, and cooperate with pro Russian president Ramzan Kadyrov.

in China, he praised Chinese policy in Xinjiang, and some uyghurs were b*tch*ng about it on islamist forums.

He works for the qatari government. He works for a political agenda, not a religious agenda. all his religious rulings are justifications for political positions. Qatar wants to be friendly with Russia so it doesn't do dumb things like have sheikhs call for jihad in chechnya. arabs are against israel, of course, so its free for all in terms for sheikhs and imams to bash them.

you are stupid, very stupid because you dont know sh!t about what koran says and teachs. sheik qaradawi must follow the koran teaching and can not change by anyone, because koran is allah teaching and can not change, must follow every word, every command. koran say hate and kill all infidel including you because you are not muslim. so qaradawi must follow this teaching too. you understand what you read or too stupid and can not understand?

qaradawi must also hate and kill all non muslims! he must follow the koran, the word from allah which can never never never change. it is haram to change any part of allah word!

qaradawi praise hitler for killing jews:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HStliOnVl6Q

qaradawi is fanatic and promote terrorism:
http://www.crethiplethi.com/portrait-of-sh...on-center/2011/

This post has been edited by kibosh: Sep 24 2011, 08:35 PM