Wayang is originated from javaneese not malay Options

[mahatir]

I read many comment from Malaysian minister especially Rais Yatim who try to blur the history of Sriwijaya and Majapahit. One time he said something clearly regarding this case:

Mengenai wayang kulit yang sering digunakan di Malaysia sebagai hiburan kesenian tradisi, Rais berkata ia tidak ada kaitan langsung dengan Indonesia dan wayang kulit sebenarnya berasal daripada Hinduisme.

"Indonesia tidak berhak untuk mengatakan wayang kulit adalah miliknya kerana ia dibawa oleh Sri Wijaya ke negara itu pada abad ketujuh kemudian berkembang pula ke Langkasuka, Langkawi di Kedah, Palembang, Batavia dan juga ke Temasik.

Some item which is totally wrong from rais:
1. He said that wayang originated from hinduisme and brought by Sriwijaya kingdom. I would like to inform you that Sriwijaya is Budhisme kingdom and wayang is not brought by sriwijaya.
2. There are no direct connection between wayang and indonesia. My comment: totally wrong, wayang is originated from indonesia as had been acknowledged by the world as proclaimed by unesco:

Wayang Puppet Theatre in Indonesia

UNESCO proclaimed the Wayang Puppet Theatre as a Masterpiece of Oral and Intangible Heritage of Humanity on 7th November 2003. It was proclaimed, with 28 other masterpiece around the world, enhancing the first list of 19 cultural spaces and expressions selected in May 2001. The Proclamation of Masterpiece of the Oral and Intangible Heritage of Humanity programme was created in 1997 at the 29th session of the General Conference of UNESCO.

Wayang is an ancient form of story telling originated on the Indonesian island of Java. For ten centuries wayang flourished at the royal courts of Java and Bali as well as in rural areas. Today, wayang is practiced not only on Java and Bali, but also on the islands of Lombok, Madura, Sumatra and Borneo, where various local performance styles and musical accompaniments have developed.

source:
http://www.unesco.or.id/activities/culture/programme/259.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayang
3. wayang are played at Palembang and batavia. Wrong, people at palembang and batavia don't have wayang culture. I don't know about singapore but i never heard wayang at singapore.

[dragonaga]

tak kisahlah wayang kulit tu sape punye sbb wayang kulit tu kan ada unsur2 khurafat yg jelas bertentangan dgn Islam sebab tulah PAS mengharamkannya di Kelantan...... kuda kepang kat Johor tu pun patut diharamkan sbb sampaikan org yg main kuda kepang tu kena rasuk..... jelas telah melanggar syariat Islam.......

[Henry123]

You mean the wayang puppet play? Yes I believe it originated in Java. Its even spoken in Javanese.
With Hindu influence of course. It doesnt mean its not have been exported to other regions.

What do you mean by "wayang culture"? A large area of Indonesia was Hindu at one time. So there was alot of Hindu influence among various Islands.

This post has been edited by Henry123: Oct 14 2007, 09:01 PM

[Majapahitans]

tak kisahlah wayang kulit tu sape punye sbb wayang kulit tu kan ada unsur2 khurafat yg jelas bertentangan dgn Islam sebab tulah PAS mengharamkannya di Kelantan...... kuda kepang kat Johor tu pun patut diharamkan sbb sampaikan org yg main kuda kepang tu kena rasuk..... jelas telah melanggar syariat Islam.......

Yeah... you shouldn' t claim and practice all those infidels custom and culture just for tourism sake.....( hahaha....)
Just import and practice only and strictly pure-noble Islamic culture only from Madinah Prophet's era....

All "non-Islamic" culture must go to trash, destroy, defaced.
Next step, destroy all temples ruin at Lembah Bujang, coz they're built by your infidel "pemuja berhala" ancestors.
Then... what do you know..., Malaysia become next Afghanistan under Taliban, destroying Bamiyan Buddhist monument....
Is that the future of Malaysia that you want...?

[mahatir]

You mean the wayang puppet play? Yes I believe it originated in Java. Its even spoken in Javanese.
With Hindu influence of course. It doesnt mean its not have been exported to other regions.

What do you mean by "wayang culture"? A large area of Indonesia was Hindu at one time. So there was alot of Hindu influence among various Islands.

Did you have valid evidence regarding your claim? if so please share to us.
Untill now there are no evidence that people at palembang and batavia had wayang in their culture. In palembang we have "dulmuluk" and at batavia we have "lenong" and "ondel-ondel".

[mahatir]

tak kisahlah wayang kulit tu sape punye sbb wayang kulit tu kan ada unsur2 khurafat yg jelas bertentangan dgn Islam sebab tulah PAS mengharamkannya di Kelantan...... kuda kepang kat Johor tu pun patut diharamkan sbb sampaikan org yg main kuda kepang tu kena rasuk..... jelas telah melanggar syariat Islam.......

Unfortunately malaysia who claim as islamic country have gambling and prostitution legally at your country.

[Crystallised Dre...]

Unfortunately malaysia who claim as islamic country have gambling and prostitution legally at your country.

That's interesting, seriously. Could you please post an article regarding legal gambling and prostitution in Malaysia? It's kinda hard for me to find it in Google. :/

[mahatir]

That's interesting, seriously. Could you please post an article regarding legal gambling and prostitution in Malaysia? It's kinda hard for me to find it in Google. :/

No need to do that, you can easily find gambling and prostitution at genting. I am also see prostitution at sun way lagoon.

[Crystallised Dre...]

No need to do that, you can easily find gambling and prostitution at genting. I am also see prostitution at sun way lagoon.

Ah genting, I just found that. I agree with you that it's weird that Malaysia as a Muslim country allows gambling in Genting. However it's interesting to note that there's a land-based gambling casino at Surabaya.

http://www.ildado.com/land_casinos_indonesia.html

Anyway I've never agreed with casinos, wherever there are. IMO money should be spent on something more beneficial in the long run. Same goes with prostitution.

Another interesting thing to note:

Prostitution exists in many places in Indonesia, whether it is legal or illegal. The range of services comes in various classes from low-cheap to high-expensive. The International Encyclopedia or Sexuality : Indonesia ( under the topic 'Sexual Behaviour and Relationships of Single Adults' ).

There were 65,582 registered prostitutes in 1994... The city of Surbaya, with tens of thousands of prostitutes, is the largest sex industry center in South East Asia, which consists of hectares and hectares of modest houses with large, plate-glass windows where bored girls sit waiting: "streets full of human aquariums". It is also a magnet for the divorced and dispossessed women of the strict Islamic villages. The sex industry serves as a source of women for prostitution in provincial towns, through a black market network of pimps...

source: Indonesia - Facts on Trafficking and Prostitution

Prostitution is illegal in Indonesia, the country with the largest Muslim population in the world with about 190 million faithful, but Dolly (in Surabaya) for many years has been the exception to the rule.

source: Lights off in Indonesian red-light district during Ramadan

But of course, don't worry:

Indonesia will not recognize the sex industry as called for but the International Labor Organization, said Social Affairs Minister Justika Baharsyah in August 1998. "From a religious side, it can't be accepted...I personally disagree on the sex worker issue," said the Minister. "There is the question of morality. The government is finding ways to handle prostitution. In the social affairs ministry, we are handling rehabilitation (of prostitutes) with other ministries like manpower, religious affairs and education."

source: Indonesia - Facts on Trafficking and Prostitution


As for Malaysia, the article is short so you can just read it here.

Malaysia - Facts on Trafficking and Prostitution

An interesting excerpt from the above article:

Malaysia is a particular destination for various nations' sex tours.

Unfortunately:

There is no way of obtaining correct information on prostitution since the government doesn't compile them, said Malaysian Social Development Minister Zaleha Ismail. (Philip Waller, "UN: Prostitution Booming in Asia," Associated Press Online, 20 August 1998)

However finally:

Under the new law, traffickers and those who abet them face lengthy jail sentences of up to 20 years, heavy fines and even whipping.

"The new law is a major change for the better. It is tough on offenders and very comprehensive in its reach. But we fear it might sit pretty on the shelf if not effectively enforced," said Dr Irene Fernandez, executive director of TENAGANITA, a leading rights non-governmental organisation (NGO) that champions trafficked women and migrant workers. "We have demanded for such a law for a decade and now we have it...we are elated."

source: May Day - Malaysia: New Law targets Traffickers, not Victims


---

But really, it's very easy to talk about weaknesses in another country than weaknesses in your own country. Kuman di seberang laut nampak, gajah di depan mata sendiri tidak nampak.

[Betong]

The point is wayang kulit in Malaysia never from Javanese. We didn't have any relation with Java back then especially in northern Malaysia where wayang culture is flourish. Only the name was the same but it doesn't mean anything.
The problem is Javanese always believe they live at center of the world.
Remember wayang in Malaysia not originated from Javanese and Java not the center of the world....
I remember other country like cambodia has their own version of puppet show ??? Maybe Javanese who create that tooo... Go claim that in Cambodia too...

[mahatir]

Ah genting, I just found that. I agree with you that it's weird that Malaysia as a Muslim country allows gambling in Genting. However it's interesting to note that there's a land-based gambling casino at Surabaya.

Well i don't know why? but its hard to believe that there are malaysian who do not know genting.
You do not get the point do you?
Indonesia didn't claim as islamic country thats why prostitution is legal, but for gambling there are no legal gambling at indonesia. Its different like malaysia who are "munafik" saying him self as islamic country but at another side gambilng and prostution are legal.

This post has been edited by mahatir: Oct 16 2007, 12:01 AM

[mahatir]

The point is wayang kulit in Malaysia never from Javanese. We didn't have any relation with Java back then especially in northern Malaysia where wayang culture is flourish.

Do you have valid source regarding this? i can make the same claim but if there are no evidence such claim only as subjective claim.
If it isn't originated from java so why are you using the words of "wayang"? wayang is java word not malay as proclamated by Unesco at the link above.

Remember wayang in Malaysia not originated from Javanese and Java not the center of the world....
I remember other country like cambodia has their own version of puppet show ??? Maybe Javanese who create that tooo... Go claim that in Cambodia too...

Again, give the valid evidence please?

[Crystallised Dre...]

Well i don't know why? but its hard to believe that there are malaysian who do not know genting.
You do not get the point do you?
Indonesia didn't claim as islamic country thats why prostitution is legal, but for gambling there are no legal gambling at indonesia. Its different like malaysia who are "munafik" saying him self as islamic country but at another side gambilng and prostution are legal.

Lol yes, I do know Genting, it's just that somehow it did not enter my mind as fast.

It's funny that just because Indonesia is 'not' an Islamic country, you can use that as an excuse to legalise prostitution. And besides, there are so many Muslims in Indonesia - did you know it's the most populous Muslim-majority country in the world? That's 88% Indonesians professing to be Muslims, while 60.4% of Malaysians profess to be Muslims.

Islam in Indonesia
Islam in Malaysia

And, my friend, what is your point of bringing up the gambling and prostitution issue in Malaysia? Jangan jaga tepi kain orang. Manage your own end of the cloth first; manage the problems of your own people first.

[mahatir]

And, my friend, what is your point of bringing up the gambling and prostitution issue in Malaysia? Jangan jaga tepi kain orang. Manage your own end of the cloth first; manage the problems of your own people first.

NOP, there are no point for me. look above i just reply a comment from your people. Ok then, lets get bact to Topic regarding Wayang.

[Betong]

Do you have valid source regarding this? i can make the same claim but if there are no evidence such claim only as subjective claim.
If it isn't originated from java so why are you using the words of "wayang"? wayang is java word not malay as proclamated by Unesco at the link above.
Again, give the valid evidence please?

If you asked wayang practitioner in Malaysia, they will say that wayang kulit originated from Old Champa kingdom. But of course that oral tradition not in writing one.
Again Java not the center of the world...

[Betong]

Well i don't know why? but its hard to believe that there are malaysian who do not know genting.
You do not get the point do you?
Indonesia didn't claim as islamic country thats why prostitution is legal, but for gambling there are no legal gambling at indonesia. Its different like malaysia who are "munafik" saying him self as islamic country but at another side gambilng and prostution are legal.

Wow since you can call us "munafik", that means Indonesian way more Islamic than us...
Prostitute is illegal in Malaysia while gambling only legal for non-muslim...

[Crystallised Dre...]

NOP, there are no point for me. look above i just reply a comment from your people. Ok then, lets get bact to Topic regarding Wayang.

Kalau no point, jangan start, man. Very controversial of you. :/


Yes I saw your comment for Betong. You asked for proof, but you didn't give me proof for legal prostitution in Malaysia.


Anyway go back to your wayang topic. : )

[Betong]

^Let it be CD... We all know that Indonesian can be a little bit arrogant sometimes

[mahatir]

If you asked wayang practitioner in Malaysia, they will say that wayang kulit originated from Old Champa kingdom. But of course that oral tradition not in writing one.
Again Java not the center of the world...

well, you can claim like that but the world had known wayang are originated from java like Unesco did. Btw I am never said Java as the center of the world.

[Crystallised Dre...]

^Let it be CD... We all know that Indonesian can be a little bit arrogant sometimes

Haha don't say that Betong, that word you used can be quite dangerous... >_<

I do know that Indonesians can be fiercely nationalistic, though. Talking of which, the Konfrontasi was really dangerous. I'm just glad that the Malaysian govt at that time successfully avoided bloodshed with the Indonesians. Wow if that happened, mati kita.

I love the Indonesian culture, but ... well, we all have imperfections.

Please continue on with the wayang, if you're still interested. Culture lessons can be very interesting.