King of Yue State, King Goujian of Yue Options

[qaib]

Goujian (520?-465BC) was a descendent of the Miao people in the Yu the Great years. One of Goujian’s grandfathers was appointed by a prince in the Xia Dynasty to guard the Yu’s Mausoleum in Kuaiji (today’s Shaoxing).



In the 23rd year of Emperor Jing of the Zhou Dynasty, Goujian ascended the throne as the King of Yue State. In the first year of Goujian, Helu, the King of the Wu State, invaded the Yue State. Goujian deployed his army in Xieli (today’s Jiaxing) to resist the invading army. Guojian’s army defeated the Wu invaders and the King of the Wu was hurt by an arrow. On his deathbed, Helu told his son Fuchai, “Never forget Yue.” After ascending the throne, Fuchai trained his army in a determination for revenge. In May 492BC, Goujian and his wife as well as Fan Li, a minister, were put into a prison made of stones. Goujian chopped woods and took care of horses, and his wife watered gardens, swept courtyards and cleaned toilets. For three years, they never showed any resentment and anger. Fuchai was pleased and granted an amnesty. Goujian and his wife were released. They went back home. In 490BC, Goujian arrived home. He underwent self-imposed hardships, sleeping on a bed made of rough woods and tasting galls now and then, to strengthen his determination for revenge. He worked in the farm, and shared a hard life with commoners. For years, Goujian worked everything possible to unite his people, enriched his state, lightened punishment for violations of laws, levied light taxes, encouraged people to give birth to more children, and build up his army. He also adopted his prime minister’s advice to build a square city for a starter and build a larger square city later. As a result of these endeavors, his subjects became rich and the society was stable. The nation under his leadership wanted to avenge the Wu State.

In 482 BC, Fuchai the duke of the Wu State met in Huangchi with his counterparts from northern states. His crown prince was left at home to guard the state. Goujian mobilized 40,000 soldiers including 6,000 bodyguards he headed to conquer the Wu State. Goujian defeated Wu army, captured the prince, seized the capital and burned the Guxi palace. Fuchai asked an armistice. Thinking he was not powerful enough to conquer the Wu State, so he agreed to withdraw. In 487 BC, he started another revenging war on Wu. The two states battled three times at a place called Lize and Goujian scored three wins. Three years later, Goujian again started a war. His army besieged the Wu capital for three years. Fuchai asked for a peace treaty and committed suicide after the request was turned down. Goujian finally annexed the Wu state in 473 BC.

According to a history book called Yue History, “The Yue State set up the capital in Langya where the Yue Kings ruled for 240 years before King Kaolie of the Chu State annexed Yue State. Over four decades after that, Qin annexed Chu State. Another 40 years later, the Han Dynasty replaced the Qin Dynasty. It was 567 years from the time Goujian moved his capital to Langya to the 28th year of the Jianwu Period.”

Source: travelchinaguide.com

Editor: Wang Moyan

http://www.chinaculture.org/focus/focus/ci...tent_390647.htm

King Goujian was Miao.


Sword of King Goujian


This post has been edited by qaib: May 7 2011, 09:47 AM

[qaib]

[qaib]

A Miao descendant, king of Yue state. I'm starting to see it now.

[Mid-Night_Sun]

is this because of this?

http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?...271792&st=0

i think they confused all sorts of things. Yue Kingdom successor was the Minyue kingdom. not the same as Nanyue Kingdom. and even if it was, its misleading the way Peter Chan keep putting "viet" next to Yue because neither the Yue Kingdom, nor the Minyue Kingdom, nor the Nanyue Kingdom was a Viet Kingdom. in fact, Viet were pretty much last to be included into Nanyue.

[qaib]

I'm confused, I always thought

Yue state (yue guo) is different from Nanyue (the Yue people of southeast China).

[Mid-Night_Sun]

I'm confused, I always thought

Yue state (yue guo) is different from Nanyue (the Yue people of southeast China).

it is. thats what im saying Viet only connection was with Nanyue.

yet somehow talking about Yue Kingdom, magically Viets were brought in out of nowhere. even more so, during the time of Nanyue, when Viets actaully were incorporated.

Yue Kingdom turned into Minyue. so even that is different.


to be super clear, the Yue State/Kingdom PRECEDE BOTH Minyue (its successor) and Nanyue. Viet were among the last to be incorporated into Nanyue.

yet somehow that thread in viet chat have viet involved in the Yue State/Kingdom. it makes zero sense to me.

This post has been edited by Mid-Night_Sun: Jun 16 2011, 01:56 AM

[qaib]

From what I know

Yue (state) was part of Zhang Guo Period (spring/autumn/warring periods).

Yue Ren (yue people) were called "Nan Yue" southern Yue (collective groups of people in southern China).

Now I know Wang Gou Jian was a King of Yue Guo, but hmmm..... Nan Yue is not even a state.

[Mid-Night_Sun]

there was a Nanyue Kingdom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanyue

which viet are notorious for claiming in entirety despite a whole slew of facts that is contrary to this. including, as you mention, the Baiyue being a blanket term for many groups of Yue people.

this is where Viet were incorporated. nothing to do with the YueState or its successor Minyue Kingdom. which is why im saying that thread made no sense.

This post has been edited by Mid-Night_Sun: Jun 16 2011, 02:02 AM

[PeterKChan]

Yue, Min-Yue and Nan-Yue probably were the same or similar peoples. Chinese people today with the surname "Ao-yang" (Yue king descent) are mostly found in Guangdong, Fujian and Zhejiang. They remained not far from their original homelands. Whether they were Daic, Austronesian, Mon-Khmer, Miao-Hmong speaking is hard to know for certain. But, the remaining Yue literature kept to this day has a lot of similarities with Zhuang minority (Daic).

[datianboy]

the ethnic identity of many ancient figures are often not told, but recorded behavior, practices and etc... can tell you about the ethnic identity of ancient figures, for example, just like that one man mozi or mohi. he was probably a western barbarian based on the culture and traditions he did as recorded, just like how the people of chu practiced shamanisn which was -un-chineses-like as recorded. they were barbarians.

barbarians calling other barbarians. i find that ironic.

This post has been edited by datianboy: Aug 3 2011, 11:40 PM

[samil]

A Miao descendant, king of Yue state. I'm starting to see it now.

one big gaping hole in your theory- there are chinese characters on King Goujian's sword. those characters were no doubt related to the shang dynasty oracle bone script-

its chinese languages and people who use chinese characters- miao haven't had a script for thousands of years up until the twentieth century when new scripts were invented.

its actually been verified that the shang dynasty script and others are forms of chinese language, and ancestor of modern chinese script.

[samil]

A Miao descendant, king of Yue state. I'm starting to see it now.

im starting to see that claims about people over 2,000 years belonging to whatever ethnicity is ridiculous. if yue the great was anything he was a 畲 She, since they are the only ethnic minority around zhejiang and fujian....

[datianboy]

^

samil, you must be very retarded. the she are miao, just like the cantonese are han chinese.
the she culture, the she native language are miao.

your little knowledge about ethnic minorities are full of craps. you probably think puyi and zhuang are different ethnic groups, but no, they are not. they were divided into two groups just like the miao people.

the she are in fact, simply sinicized miao. i hate idiots like you that can't just accept the facts. you then tried to find a different info to argue by stating that King Goujian was She, but little did you know, She 畲族 are in fact Miao, because their ancestors are Miao.

all miao groups go by many names, called themselves many name. Miao is just a Chinese term. Do you think we don't know that? Calling the sinicized Miao as She doesn't mean they are a separate ethnic group, just like you people keep complaining that Hui Chinese are nothing, but Han. It's the same with She, they are nothing, but Miao.

you must not understand hmong history, for if you did, you would know that long before the chinese expansion, there were miao people living in guangdong and southeast china, but today, there are barely any since many of them fled into southwest china.

there are still miao living in hainan island, few still live around guangdong region, just like how there are still few miao families living along the yangtze river. do you think that the miao people only live in one little region in china? i don't think so.

You acted as if you know about the miao people. they have their own scripts. Miao scripts are found in ancient cave and cliffs around hunan province. Miao scripts are found on old miao artifacts that no Miao today can read them. your info about the Miao people, probably are just things you read online. you don't know anything about miao people.

This post has been edited by datianboy: Aug 17 2011, 02:35 PM

[5ali]

^

samil, you must be very retarded. the she are miao, just like the cantonese are han chinese.
the she culture, the she native language are miao.

your little knowledge about ethnic minorities are full of craps. you probably think puyi and zhuang are different ethnic groups, but no, they are not. they were divided into two groups just like the miao people.

the she are in fact, simply sinicized miao. i hate idiots like you that can't just accept the facts. you then tried to find a different info to argue by stating that King Goujian was She, but little did you know, She 畲族 are in fact Miao, because their ancestors are Miao.

all miao groups go by many names, called themselves many name. Miao is just a Chinese term. Do you think we don't know that? Calling the sinicized Miao as She doesn't mean they are a separate ethnic group, just like you people keep complaining that Hui Chinese are nothing, but Han. It's the same with She, they are nothing, but Miao.

you must not understand hmong history, for if you did, you would know that long before the chinese expansion, there were miao people living in guangdong and southeast china, but today, there are barely any since many of them fled into southwest china.

there are still miao living in hainan island, few still live around guangdong region, just like how there are still few miao families living along the yangtze river. do you think that the miao people only live in one little region in china? i don't think so.

You acted as if you know about the miao people. they have their own scripts. Miao scripts are found in ancient cave and cliffs around hunan province. Miao scripts are found on old miao artifacts that no Miao today can read them. your info about the Miao people, probably are just things you read online. you don't know anything about miao people.

i'm sorry that i didn't post the reason why I mentioned the scripts, maybe you wouldn't have gotten angry.

qaib did not just post here. he went on china history foum on another account before, and made the same claim about goujian, and another claim about shang and chu, except that time, he posted a picture of MODERN miao scripts, and claimed he could see them on ancient Shang and chu artifacts

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...42#entry5005642

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...goujian-of-yue/

i did not act as if i knew miao people. I posted the thing scripts because qaib didn't answer on on china history foum, so i posted my response here.

i know about miao living in hunan, yunnan, guangdong, and guizhou, seriously what is your problem? qaib was the one who came on china history foum, and started insulting people and yelling. i got pissed, because he bullied other posters like Yun and claimed he was a han nationalist without even realizing that Yun wasn't even questioning his claims, he wanted to have a friendly talk.

and its extremely offensive to claim hui are han. you do not know anything about hui, the southern part of hunan, in taoyuan county, are hui who were in the Ming emperors army, and they settled on native land, just like the "uyghur" of taoyuan, who are actually heavily mixed with han after they drove the miao tribes out of the region.

[5ali]

you are mistaking me for han supremacist. i'm not. I'm disgusted by the islamophobia, and the supremacists who are claiming hui people are converted han chinese.

china also has shamans as well

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_%28shaman%29

and in case you didn't read my post on the uyghur thread earlier, no where did i say killing uyghur was ok. and then you accused my of twisting history? all i mentioned was that ming dynasty preferred muslims, i never said that han people never massacred miao or took their land. why are you getting so jumpy?

I was just angry about qaib's post on chinahistoryforum, and his bullying and attacking other members. we said nothing about miao people being bad, and he accused us of chinese and taiwanese nationlism and yelled.

[hmoobconan]

qaib was the one who came on china history foum, and started insulting people and yelling. i got pissed, because he bullied other posters like Yun and claimed he was a han nationalist without even realizing that Yun wasn't even questioning his claims, he wanted to have a friendly talk.

lol... are you kidding me? The conversation that nan tribes and yun had seems to be fine. From what I can see... it looks like the members/mods are a bit sensitive.

[hmoobconan]

one big gaping hole in your theory- there are chinese characters on King Goujian's sword. those characters were no doubt related to the shang dynasty oracle bone script-

its chinese languages and people who use chinese characters- miao haven't had a script for thousands of years up until the twentieth century when new scripts were invented.

its actually been verified that the shang dynasty script and others are forms of chinese language, and ancestor of modern chinese script.

I have to agree with this guy. We are barbarians that have never invented or adopted a writing system even though we live close to those civilized barbarians for that long.

This post has been edited by hmoobconan: Aug 17 2011, 06:39 PM

[erres34]

and also datianboy, where are the alleged 2,000 year old scripts from hunan you were talking about? do they look like the symbols on king goujian's sword? can you show me pictures of them?

come on to the china history forum thread and see if you can refute Yun's points or not, and then we'll talk about who is the idiot or not.

its strange you only came on Chinese chat to follow my postings, and attack me only. do you have some kind of obsession with me? wtf is your problem? you came on right after this post, and i didn't notice it until now

http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?...&st=20&

and in addition, you failed to respond on the uyghur thread, when i pointed out that the video you posted contained no footage of police handing out weapons to people. show me, where in the video were the weapons handed out? or are you just here to attack me and then run away when i actualy respond?

and you asked about evidence of Ming dynasty preferring muslims to southern natives, its over here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miao_Rebellions_(Ming_Dynasty)