The Lao, who are they, and where they came from?, Pre-Lan Xang kingdom Options

[dnangv]

OMFG!!!!! This material is the biggest piece of bullcrap that i have ever read! This guy is flat out ignorant!

who would dare to quote such fraud material from Cochrane. "The Shans'. 'Library of Congress Cataloging in Publication Data', USA. 1915."

sorry guys im a bout to BARF now...

Can you enlighten me on the fraudulent nature of 'Cochrane'? I'm not too familiar with the writing. Are you basing your opinion that this article is "the biggest piece of bullcrap" on the fact that this author sites Cochrane or are there some points that are not addressed, addressed incorrectly or addressed but exaggerated? If the information in this article is false which parts are so and can you site any references?

I'm not trying to be condescending. I really want to know where our people began. If you do have the 'true' history please present something with hard facts.

This post has been edited by dnangv: May 22 2007, 06:49 PM

[QuangCamRanh]

All your answers can be found on Laos a BRIEF HISTORY - http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Laos/laos.htm

[johnnycham]

I learned something new today !
HAHAHA u kno i was watching rush hour 2 and thought i the word "Gai" was the same meaning for both chinese and lao when the lady was about to cut the chicken's head off :DDDD

lol, actually. some lao/thai words are simmilar to chinese (cantonese and maybe some mandarin)

[Savan]

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This post has been edited by Savan: Aug 23 2012, 04:28 AM

[babyshanker]

All your answers can be found on Laos a BRIEF HISTORY - http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Laos/laos.htm

Article referred people of Laos as "Thais" gtfo with thaaat.

[Savan]

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This post has been edited by Savan: Aug 23 2012, 04:28 AM

[NungTinbao]

Yup, that's true. Gai (chicken) and Moo (pig) are the same in both Lao and Chinese. Our Lao ancestors were from southern China. So some Chinese words are actually Lao (Tai) words and vice versa.

gai(chicken) is the same in both Cantonese and Tai speaking language(Chicken in Mandarin is Ji, sounds like jee), but PIG(Moo or Mou) is not the same to any Chinese dialect, MOO/MOU is a Tai native word.

Lao and Thai ancestors were from ancient Baiyue people who was the ancestor of all Tai-Kaidai language family and lived south of Yangtze River to northern Vietnam, all Tai speaking language is from Xi'ou and Luo-yue Tribes of Baiyue.

I see many Thai and Lao pi-nong still think their ancestors were from Da-Li kingdom or Nan-zhao kingdom, but it is absolutely wrong, it was a fairy tale which made by western scholars 100 years ago, Nanzhao or Dali kingdom were builded by Bai and Yi ethnics of Tibet-Burma language group, but not of Daic. Scholars today see Tai speaking people were all from ancient Baiyue group which lived around littoral region of southern China and South-East China, which from present jiangsu, Zhejiang, shanghai, Fujian, Guangdong and Guangxi provinces of China and Red River delta of Northern Vietnam. More and more attestation on linguistics, archaeology and anthropology have proved it. You Thai-Lao -Shan-Dai people are all from Baiyue, the same to our Zhuang people. Though one part of Tai ancestor migrated and abroad to everywhere of Indo-China byland and fringe region of Yunnan province, but Zhuang people and other Tai-Kadai speaking groups still live in the land of their Ancestors until now.

I don't think you people can believe what i said about our Baiyue history so soon because you were all under the Nanzhao or Dali historical education from your childhood, but the more you learn you will know more about our true history , and you will see many people are not tired of claiming the wrong ancestors. Though you Thai and Lao are so lucky because you own your nations and states, and we Zhuang are so weak and assimilated by Han Chinese today,but we do have the same root.

How can we ever know where we were from if people still do not understand the logic of linguistics and anthropology? Would you please face squarely your true Baiyue ancestor, My Laoand Thai pi-nong!

[xonelong]

gai(chicken) is the same in both Cantonese and Tai speaking language(Chicken in Mandarin is Ji, sounds like jee), but PIG(Moo or Mou) is not the same to any Chinese dialect, MOO/MOU is a Tai native word.

Lao and Thai ancestors were from ancient Baiyue people who was the ancestor of all Tai-Kaidai language family and lived south of Yangtze River to northern Vietnam, all Tai speaking language is from Xi'ou and Luo-yue Tribes of Baiyue.

I see many Thai and Lao pi-nong still think their ancestors were from Da-Li kingdom or Nan-zhao kingdom, but it is absolutely wrong, it was a fairy tale which made by western scholars 100 years ago, Nanzhao or Dali kingdom were builded by Bai and Yi ethnics of Tibet-Burma language group, but not of Daic. Scholars today see Tai speaking people were all from ancient Baiyue group which lived around littoral region of southern China and South-East China, which from present jiangsu, Zhejiang, shanghai, Fujian, Guangdong and Guangxi provinces of China and Red River delta of Northern Vietnam. More and more attestation on linguistics, archaeology and anthropology have proved it. You Thai-Lao -Shan-Dai people are all from Baiyue, the same to our Zhuang people. Though one part of Tai ancestor migrated and abroad to everywhere of Indo-China byland and fringe region of Yunnan province, but Zhuang people and other Tai-Kadai speaking groups still live in the land of their Ancestors until now.

I don't think you people can believe what i said about our Baiyue history so soon because you were all under the Nanzhao or Dali historical education from your childhood, but the more you learn you will know more about our true history , and you will see many people are not tired of claiming the wrong ancestors. Though you Thai and Lao are so lucky because you own your nations and states, and we Zhuang are so weak and assimilated by Han Chinese today,but we do have the same root.

How can we ever know where we were from if people still do not understand the logic of linguistics and anthropology? Would you please face squarely your true Baiyue ancestor, My Laoand Thai pi-nong!

Wow...please tell more about Baiyue, tell more about our ancesters as you know it....it's interesting. thx

[Savan]

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This post has been edited by Savan: Aug 23 2012, 04:28 AM

[PingLing]

I think that NungTinbao is right. I couldn't imagin that Nanzhao was Tai because the majority in this old kingdom was dominated by Tibetan people, but aren't the Baiyue or Yue the ancesters of the Vietnamese and are the Baiyue Austronesians or just Daics?

[babyshanker]

so Nanzhao is not the origin and we come from Ancient Baiyue? I don't know much about Baiyue so please inform us.

[NungTinbao]

So is the word, "gai" (chicken), originally Tai or Cantonese?

Though all Chinese Han dialects call chicken as gai[kai] or ji[tsi] or ge[ke]，and all of them are from the same original word "gai[kai]", but many Chinese scholars and linguists say that gai(chicken) is originally Tai-Kadai word and was loaned into Han Chinese very long time ago. Because the ancestors of Tai-Kadai speaking people who called Baiyue invent to raise chicken first in East Asia.

[NungTinbao]

I have seen that there are so less people who knows about opinions regarding the linguistic, genetic, and cultural relationship to the Yue（越）/Baiyue（百越） and Vietnamese.

I will tell something about Baiyue（百越） to our pi-nong gradually but pls forgive me if my respond is too involved or abstruse, because to learn daic history people will need to learn chinese history to better understand daic populations, and I am not good at English, it is a hard work for me. I can speak so many languages and dialects(6 idioms of Southern Zhuang and 2 idioms of Northern Zhuang, Mandarin, Gui-liu-hua which is a mandarin diaclect in Guangxi, Cantonese and Japanese and a little English) but English is worst to me because I learned it in Chinese middle school and high school only, and I stoped learning English after entering University and changed to learn Japanese as major. I give up using English more than 10 years and started to use it again from several days ago after joining this forum, how can I explain so difficult history questions to you in English, pi-nong? But I will try my best, 55555.

Linguistic researches in recent years has shown that, with general agreement among the field, that Vietnamese (or Kinh) belongs to the Mon-Khmer branch. It is also a common agreement that the "Yue" or “Bai-Yue” belongs to Tai-Kai languages. Bai（百）is hundred, Bai-Yue does not mean hundred Yue Tribes but means Very large Number of Yue Tribes. They are so many braches but their languages culture are all related and similar, they all belong to one language family---Yue.

Why so many western scholars and viet scholars say Vietnamese was from Baiyue or Yue? It was because Vietnamese were under the reign of the Yue people in northern Vietman especially Red River Delta at that time. Also when the ancient Han people from the north reached the Ling-Nan（岭南） region(Guangxi, Guangdong , Hainan and northern Viet at that time) it was impossible for them to have the knowledge what is a Tai langauge and what is a Mon-Khmer language. So it is very possible that they recorded a few words from a Mon-Khmer language in the reign of Yue people and regarded it as the language of Yue people themselves in mistake. Some scholars recommended those record and made many fairy tales that Vietnamese were from Yue. But in fact Baiyue people are all of Tai-Kaidai Languages and were distributed over all areas of south to Yangtze River(From present Jiangsu, Zhejiang, Jiangx, Fujian, Guangdong, Guangxi provinces to Red River Delta of Northern Vietnam). The ancestors of Viet(Kinh) never lived in the area near Yangtze River but they lived in the south part of Yue Region at that time.

In the official record of the Qing Dynasty, there was one mentioning that the King of Annan asked for the title of "Nan Yue King"（南越国王） from the Central Empire. While the official reply from the Central Empire is that "You are not the people of the Yue people, but the people at the south of the Yue people, so it is unsuitable to grant you the name "Nan Yue". Instead "Yue Nan" will be more suitable". So Yue-Nan(Vietnam) became the official name of the country of Kinh from that day. The Chinese have not always been calling the Kinh people Viet. As the frontier of the Sinitic culture pushed farther south and assimilated Daic populations , the word yue was applied to the territory we now consider Vietnam. NamViet is expressed by the two same ideographs used for 南越（Nan-Yue or Nam-Viet）, but in reverse order. When translated Vietnam means "SOUTH TO YUE."

The Chinese have not always call Vietnamese as Viet. For a long time, Chinese people used "Jiaozhi" or “Jiao”. Zhuang people still call Vietnamese Geu(Giau), same as Lao, Thai, etc. All Daic populations call Vietnamese GIAO. It's Kinh that is stealing Daic history and claiming the wrong ancestors. The evidence is so clear. It was only since Vietnam was chosen as the country name that some people started to use Viet. Therefore, the name Viet is from the country name Kinh chose, it has nothing to do with ethnic origin. What's more, Viet is the Chinese pronounciation of Yue in Tang Dynasty, Yue population will not call them self as Viet, but Daic of the Han Dynasty pronounciation.

Today Vietnamese still think their ancestor was from the Yue state built from 1913 BC to 334 BC in present Zhejiang Province, or other Baiyue tribes near Yangtze River because they still do not understand the logic of linguistics,anthropology and Genetics. In SEAsia it is quite well-known that Vietnam doesn't have REAL scientific historical linguistic research. You can ask everyone in the annual SE Asia Linguistic Conference. They all know that, although not many of them willing to mention it due to a sense of politness. Vietnam has done many fieldwork researches, which most of them are very good jobs. But it is rather rare to hear Vietnamese linguists to work on historical linguistics which involves a lot of theoritical training.

Every Chinese linguist knows that Southern Chinese dialects have a Daic Substratum, why we do not see the same with Kinh? And every Chinese Linguist says Yue=Daic, its not even a question. In ancient China, the Chinese recorded the languages of Yang Yue, Min Yue, Yu Yue, Nan Yue. All of those languages are Daic. It would be ridiculous to say Yue is not Daic. Daic populations are numbering 25-30 million in southern China, why no Kinh besides the recent about 20 thousand Jing(京族Kinh) people migrants in only one county called Dongxing(东兴) in southern Guangxi border on Vietnam? Can we implying that all Kinh were assimilated but so many Daic still keep their language and culture? The Kinh people were never across North to Vietnam, those stories are myths and folktales.

"越人歌YUE-REN-GE(song of the Yue)" written in a very famous Chinese ancient book“Shuo-Yuan. Feng-Shi-Pian” 《说苑•奉使篇》which telling the story in 528 BC, it was singed by a Yue boatman from Yue state but at the border of Chu State, it is ancient Daic language and can be understood by all Daic scholars till today. Excavation from Liangzhu, and the many other neolithic cultures of China have proven they are also Daic.

The Bai-Yue are Daic people and no one can take that from Daic. That is our ancestors, that is from where we are from and birthed. Our relatives Zhuang, Bouyei, Dong(Kam), Shui(Sui), Mulao, Maonan and Li(Hlai) are still in present Lingnan Region(Guangxi, Guangdong, Hainan) where they have been over thousands of years.

This post has been edited by NungTinbao: Dec 9 2007, 07:02 AM

[babyshanker]

well written nungtinbao.

[hawnying]

Thank you! NungTinbao.Thanks for introducing knowledge about "百越”here. Nice to meet you here! are you from Guangxi china too? I have to say something about "越人歌".I heard zhou xun sing it in the movie " The Banquet" (Ye Yan) by Feng Xiaogang. It's so touching.I know it's a song of my ancester zhuang people. Because the original text ( the pronounciation recorded in ancient chinese characters) has been successfully rendered into zhuang language in 1980s. Anyway, your post is impressive.

This post has been edited by hawnying: Dec 9 2007, 12:32 PM

[chao_lao]

Thanks pi-nong, keep spreading Daic gospel until each and everyone one of us understand the concept.




This post has been edited by chao_lao: Dec 10 2007, 04:04 AM

[chao_lao]

Thank you! NungTinbao.Thanks for introducing knowledge about "百越”here. Nice to meet you here! are you from Guangxi china too? I have to say something about "越人歌".I heard zhou xun sing it in the movie " The Banquet" (Ye Yan) by Feng Xiaogang. It's so touching.I know it's a song of my ancester zhuang people. Because the original text ( the pronounciation recorded in ancient chinese characters) has been successfully rendered into zhuang language in 1980s. Anyway, your post is impressive.

Hello Hawnying, welcome to the forums. Please make yourself at home in Lao chat and enjoy your stay. Are you pu-sai (male) or pu-ying (female)? Please do share the northern Zhuang culture and tradition with the fellow pi-nong, we are very intersted.

This post has been edited by chao_lao: Dec 10 2007, 04:21 AM

[hawnying]

Hello Hawnying, welcome to the forums. Please make yourself at home in Lao chat and enjoy your stay. Are you pu-sai (male) or pu-ying (female)? Please do share the northern Zhuang culture and tradition with the fellow pi-nong, we are very intersted.

Thank you for welcome. I am so happy to meet you guys here. I feel good here too. I am a pu-ying. We say "bou-sao". I think "pu"="bou" in my dialet, and sao means an unmarried woman. I come here to learn more about Lao culture because I used to have a friend who told me many similiarities between Zhuang and Lao culture.I was quite shocked and still so curious that I decided to find out more facts about this by myself.
And I would like to share northern Zhuang culture as well.

[aithong]

Been surfing this site for awhile now just to read up on some discussions about the lao/thai history but i was never interested in joining until now. I'm probably the oldest lao member here compares to alot of you guys but like you guys i have a thirst for knowledge about our history. I guess you co8uld say that you're never too old to learn, right?


Nungtinbao, thanx for sharing your knowledge with us. I've been reading a few articles about tai people living in Guangxi and other areas of southesatern China but to actually hear from somebody from that region telling the history just gives me the chills.

[Learner]

Sabaidee Ai thong, hue vaa, Paurtoo thong dee nor