Laos's Dam making Vietnam jumping up & down., what happen to 1977 treaty of friendship? Options

[lilzz]

Dam splits Vietnam, Laos
By Marwaan Macan-Markar

BANGKOK - The first in a new series of 11 dams planned across the Mekong, Southeast Asia's largest river, could break a special bond between two communist-ruled countries.

Critics in Vietnam are concerned over a 1,260-megawatt hydropower project planned by their smaller, poorer, land-locked neighbor, Laos. They call it an environmental disaster.

Laos, however, wants to be the powerhouse of the region - to sell power to its neighbors and earn enough to help the poor that are a third of its population of 5.8 million.

The dam in an idyllic hill setting in the north Laos province of Xayaburi (or Sayaboury), will be built by a Thai developer. Thailand is expected to buy 95% of its power to fuel its booming economy.
Environmentalists say the Xayaburi dam and 10 more such constructions planned on the Mekong's mainstream, nine in Laos, make a Faustian bargain.

The dam will "reduce fresh water and silt downstream in Vietnam and devastate fishing," stated 'Tuoi Tre', the country's largest circulating paper, published by the Communist Youth Organisation from Ho Chi Minh City (former Saigon) in the south.

The potential threat of the US$3.5 billion dam in the Mekong delta, Vietnam's "biggest rice producing and fish farming area", has also been highlighted by The Saigon Times.


Vietnam's government officials have raised their voice against the 32-meter-tall, 820-meter-wide dam. "If built, Laos' Xayaburi dam will greatly affect Vietnam's agriculture production and aquaculture," deputy minister of natural resources and environment Nguyen Thai Lai reportedly said in a meeting of the country's Mekong River experts. This goes against the spirit of a 1977 treaty of friendship and cooperation that binds them in a "special relationship".

"The criticism reflects the concerns and the opinion of the public and the government," said Nguy Thi Khanh, deputy director of the Centre for Water Resources Conservation and Development, an NGO based in the northern Vietnam city of Hanoi.

Vietnamese scientists have also said "the project should be stopped", Khanh added during a telephone interview from the Vietnamese capital. "Vietnam's silence about this dam has been broken."

For its part, the Laotian government is sticking to its plan. "We are confident that the Xayaburi Hydroelectric Power Project will not have any significant impact on the Mekong mainstream," officials from Vientiane (the capital of Laos) have explained in a note to the Mekong River experts.

Mekong experts from Cambodia, Laos, Thailand and Vietnam – the four countries that share the waters of the lower Mekong - are meeting in late March to approve the Xayaburi dam plans.

Laos has appealed to its neighbors not to place any blocks to the project. The government does not want to raise the political stakes to the point of being compelled to get its dam blueprint approved by ministers or even prime ministers.

"There will be no need for any extension of time and no need to forward this matter to the [ministerial] level," revealed the note by the Laotian government to Mekong River experts.

This dam issue has become the first major test of environmental diplomacy for the four countries in the lower Mekong, members of the Mekong River Commission (MRC). An inter-governmental body that came up after a 1995 agreement, the Vientiane-based body aims to manage the development of the Mekong basin in consensus. Any plan to dam the Mekong has to be scrutinized for its cross-border impact under a special mechanism, formally known as the Procedure for Notification Prior Consultation and Agreement (PNPCA).

"This is the first time that we are going through the prior consultation process," Jeremy Bird, MRC's chief executive officer, told IPS. "Countries do not have a veto right [to stop a dam being built in a neighboring country] yet countries cannot proceed without consultation."

The MRC's members have to weigh the provision in the agreement that "a country cannot act irresponsibly to impact its neighbor" against every member's "right not to agree" and ability to "take its own decision", said Rudi Veestraeten, Belgium's envoy to Thailand. MRC is funded by Belgium, along with other European countries, Australia and Canada.

Till now the 4,880-km long Mekong has remained free of dams along its journey through the basin, winding its way past Myanmar along the four MRC partners till it falls in the South China Sea in southern Vietnam.

But upstream, the river's flow from its headwaters in the Tibetan plateau through southern China has been harnessed by four dams in China's Yunnan province, part of a cascade of eight mega dams the Asian giant plans. Local activists, environmentalists and even government experts of the lower Mekong are alarmed.

The impact of the Chinese dams on the downstream countries has strengthened campaigns led by Towards Ecological Recovery and Regional Alliance (TERRA), a Bangkok-based green lobby. TERRA warns that dams on the lower Mekong will affect the lives of 60 million people who depend on food and their livelihood from the river.

"Laos has not helped its case because the government has refused to make public the EIA [environmental impact assessment] it has done for the Xayaburi dam," Premrudee Daoroung, co-director of TERRA, told IPS. "The Laotian government says it is a secret document."

[JazzyQueen]

they think they are smart ? we don't have any thing to resolve it ? Even china put hand in it.... making dam. if we block the river dont let it flow to the sea then what happen .....hhahahaha.? what out . we want to live in peace but they don't want no problem.

This post has been edited by JazzyQueen: Mar 8 2011, 02:20 PM

[lilzz]

No wonder SoCal is praying 24/7 Vietnam Laos will have ever lasting friendship and peace, he sense something detrimental to Vietnam will happen, and thing like this.

SoCal, u are a genius. Your worry is well found!

[HaojAo]

LOL! I thought China cooperating with Laos on future business and development would be much better then having Vietnam or Thailand since from What I know many Laotian kind of losing trust towards Vietnam since most resource in Laos are taken into Vietnam where all the development is happening. Over Half are illegal from rare woods and many other things. Local don't get nothing in returned or Laos for that matters.

Also Vietnam should have a full trust toward Laos anyways, if that is not the case. Then that 40 years of special relationship was a scam and untrustworthy on the Vietnam side for not trusting Laos. And remember most of Laos resource went to mostly vietnam, while laos gets shiet at the end.

[SoCal]

Why am I in the conversation?

No wonder SoCal is praying 24/7 Vietnam Laos will have ever lasting friendship and peace, he sense something detrimental to Vietnam will happen, and thing like this.

SoCal, u are a genius. Your worry is well found!

[JazzyQueen]

who is better than vietnam ? First, vietnamese dying to protect Lao in 3 wars. Second, vietnamese company has been giving to Lao middle enterprise company Loan. Vietnamese gave lao free access sea port. Fourth, every years give lao 5 thousand scholarship to study in vietnam base on US standard plus 20 millions dollar for lao education ministry. Seagame in Lao, vietnamese private HAGL company gave 30 million dollars. Giving lao free to access vietnam 24/24 like home. give Lao military training tactic like special force, One Lao can beat 3 chinese just in case chinese invade Lao. That is most reason why chinese army give out award who can take one vietnamese military officer they can jum up 2 level in the war time vietnam- china .
Vietnamese and Russian + Japanese + India are focusing building up Lao at a Highland Entertaiment resource in the futre for the whole world. So what do you want ?
we don't take from lao anything except woods.... but we have to pay for that ... that main resource of Lao,this is not for free.

[Buddhalove]

If Vietnam government is not complaining about the largest dam in mainland South East Asia like Son La Dam messing up Red River delta, then they should not complain about Sayaboury dam, which will be located over 1000 km away from the Mekong delta. Plus Mekong doesn't just get water from Laos alone, you have rainfall, water from Cambodia, thailand and China.


Son La dam

[HaojAo]

If Vietnam government is not complaining about the largest dam in mainland South East Asia like Son La Dam messing up Red River delta, then they should not complain about Sayaboury dam, which will be located over 1000 km away from the Mekong delta. Plus Mekong doesn't just get water from Laos alone, you have rainfall, water from Cambodia, thailand and China.


Son La dam

Did you know that Son La,Lai Chau,Lao Cai and apart of Yen Bai used to belong to Laos? It was taken away from us by Vietnam after the Communist HoChiMinh and his Viet Cong army into Laos during the during the last french colonization, then later taken more during the China/Vietnam border wars. Also Vietnam is getting into our bussiness too much or being too nosey. I think it is time they should start letting us decide on our own and trust us at least.

[XigonCongchua]

^ Stop bull$hitting Bingbing. They were part of Đại Việt by the Lê Dynasty.

[HaojAo]

who is better than vietnam ? First, vietnamese dying to protect Lao in 3 wars. Second, vietnamese company has been giving to Lao middle enterprise company Loan. Vietnamese gave lao free access sea port. Fourth, every years give lao 5 thousand scholarship to study in vietnam base on US standard plus 20 millions dollar for lao education ministry. Seagame in Lao, vietnamese private HAGL company gave 30 million dollars. Giving lao free to access vietnam 24/24 like home. give Lao military training tactic like special force, One Lao can beat 3 chinese just in case chinese invade Lao. That is most reason why chinese army give out award who can take one vietnamese military officer they can jum up 2 level in the war time vietnam- china .
Vietnamese and Russian + Japanese + India are focusing building up Lao at a Highland Entertaiment resource in the futre for the whole world. So what do you want ?
we don't take from lao anything except woods.... but we have to pay for that ... that main resource of Lao,this is not for free.

I'm just saying that Laos cannot just relied on Vietnam for its own protection, since Vietnam have its own internal and external problems on her own. Laos is just a pawn game for Vietnam interest and I think it is time that Laos stand on her own ground and decide what is best for Laos as a long terms decision. At least Vietnam should stand by us, then not trust us anymore, as to how Laos trust Vietnam on many things like some of the things you lists.

[JazzyQueen]

HaoAo sorry you are not Lao. Just a chinese spy. You did not know anything... if you don't talk i may believe you are Lao but when you are talking like statment above then you are not Lao.

[HaojAo]

^ Stop bull$hitting Bingbing. They were part of Đại Việt by the Lê Dynasty.

Not from what I see on the french/Lao map. We lost alot of land during that time and after the Vietnam War.

[HaojAo]

HaoAo sorry you are not Lao. Just a chinese spy. You did not know anything... if you don't talk i may believe you are Lao but when you are talking like statment above then you are not Lao.

Actually I'm Lao/Viet. Just asked Xigon, she will tell you.

[XigonCongchua]

This was how things were by the Nguyễn Dynasty. You Lao should stop bull$hitting about how the French or the communist took a huge junk of your land in the 20th century

Not from what I see on the french/Lao map. We lost alot of land during that time and after the Vietnam War.

French took some land from Vietnam and gave it to Laos and Cambodia since the French didn't like Vietnam to be too large . That was how Laos got its shape today. But those provinces weren't among them.

Actually I'm Lao/Viet. Just asked Xigon, she will tell you.

I remember you also said you were Thai mixed once.

This post has been edited by XigonCongchua: Mar 8 2011, 06:09 PM

[Buddhalove]

^ Stop bull$hitting Bingbing. They were part of Đại Việt by the Lê Dynasty.

Please, those are basic history fact and you already messed up? Learn not to re-write history. History is history, now a day Sip song chu tai is part of Vietnam.


The various Tai groups to the west of what was once known loosely as Annam had a long history of self-government. Between the 14th and 15th centuries, the Tai Dam came under the protection of the Lao of Luang Prabang while still functioning independently. With the establishment of the Chakri dynasty at Thonburi and throughout the Bangkok period, the Siamese gained power over the Kingdom of Lan Chang centered at Vientiane and, indirectly, the Sip Song Chao/Chu Thai region. However, their early control did not extend to the Tai Dam, who remained under the "mild suzerainty" of Luang Prabang. The Siamese, however, did move Tai Dam captives and resettled them in villages near Bangkok, where they are known as Lao Song Dam. When Vietnam fell to France, the Sip Song Chao/Chu Thai and the adjacent Hua Phan Districts were ceded by the Thais to Vietnam in 1888.

Sipsong Chau Tai, which means "Twelve Tai Principalities," was colonized and annexed to Tonkin in 1889. In 1948, the region was reorganized as Sip Hok Chau Tai (Sixteen Tai Principalities), and was referred to by the French as the "Tai Federation". As such, it was declared an independent country by the Tai and the French, and remained so until 1954 when it was absorbed by Vietnam after the defeat of the French at Dien Bien Phu.

After the defeat of the French in 1954, special autonomous administrative zones were established in the northern mountains such as (i) Khu tu tri Thai-Meo (Thai-Meo Autonomous Zone) covering most parts of the present northwestern areas, and (ii) Khu tu tri Viet bac (Viet bac Autonomous Zone) encompassing the present northeastern zone. The Vietnamese, in 1955, renamed the region the "Tai-Meo Autonomous Zone" of Vietnam, then again in 1962, the "Northwest Autonomous Zone".

Many social and economic changes were introduced in the mountains. A series of successive mass mobilization campaigns were conducted to eliminate illiteracy and provide education, suppress shifting cultivation and sedentarise supposedly nomadic minorities, as well as expand the area under cultivation, introduce modern farming technology, and establish agricultural cooperatives.

Finally, in 1975, the region lost its identity and became known simply as the northwest of Vietnam, which now includes the provinces of Son La, Lai Chau. Lao Cai, and Yen Bai.

[HaojAo]

I remember you also said you were Thai mixed once.

I never said I was Thai. I did say I'm Tai. I think you got confused with the two wording.

[VietnamNo1]

Lol I'm not b!tching about this but if it's not French colonization then the whole Indochina would be part of Vietnam already

This post has been edited by VietnamNo1: Mar 8 2011, 06:23 PM

[HaojAo]

Please, those are basic history fact and you already messed up? Learn not to re-write history. History is history, now a day Sip song chu tai is part of Vietnam.


The various Tai groups to the west of what was once known loosely as Annam had a long history of self-government. Between the 14th and 15th centuries, the Tai Dam came under the protection of the Lao of Luang Prabang while still functioning independently. With the establishment of the Chakri dynasty at Thonburi and throughout the Bangkok period, the Siamese gained power over the Kingdom of Lan Chang centered at Vientiane and, indirectly, the Sip Song Chao/Chu Thai region. However, their early control did not extend to the Tai Dam, who remained under the "mild suzerainty" of Luang Prabang. The Siamese, however, did move Tai Dam captives and resettled them in villages near Bangkok, where they are known as Lao Song Dam. When Vietnam fell to France, the Sip Song Chao/Chu Thai and the adjacent Hua Phan Districts were ceded by the Thais to Vietnam in 1888.

Sipsong Chau Tai, which means "Twelve Tai Principalities," was colonized and annexed to Tonkin in 1889. In 1948, the region was reorganized as Sip Hok Chau Tai (Sixteen Tai Principalities), and was referred to by the French as the "Tai Federation". As such, it was declared an independent country by the Tai and the French, and remained so until 1954 when it was absorbed by Vietnam after the defeat of the French at Dien Bien Phu.

After the defeat of the French in 1954, special autonomous administrative zones were established in the northern mountains such as (i) Khu tu tri Thai-Meo (Thai-Meo Autonomous Zone) covering most parts of the present northwestern areas, and (ii) Khu tu tri Viet bac (Viet bac Autonomous Zone) encompassing the present northeastern zone. The Vietnamese, in 1955, renamed the region the "Tai-Meo Autonomous Zone" of Vietnam, then again in 1962, the "Northwest Autonomous Zone".

Many social and economic changes were introduced in the mountains. A series of successive mass mobilization campaigns were conducted to eliminate illiteracy and provide education, suppress shifting cultivation and sedentarise supposedly nomadic minorities, as well as expand the area under cultivation, introduce modern farming technology, and establish agricultural cooperatives.

Finally, in 1975, the region lost its identity and became known simply as the northwest of Vietnam, which now includes the provinces of Son La, Lai Chau. Lao Cai, and Yen Bai.

Oh, I'm talking about this map Laos-Francis map.

[XigonCongchua]

It was an autonomous area but that didn't mean it wasn't part of Đại Việt's territory.

Are you telling me Guangxi isn't part of China because it's a Zhuang autonomous

China currently has lots of autonomous regions too.


Fact was they were part of Đại Việt's territory by the Lê dynasty (16th-18th century). Nguyễn dynasty further expanded Vietnam westward before the French stopped them.

And Viet kings only granted them autonomy sometimes, not all the times, meaning their autonomy wasn't continuous. It was granted and taken back from time to time.

This post has been edited by XigonCongchua: Mar 12 2011, 05:28 PM

[HaojAo]

Lol I'm not b!tching about this but if it's not French colonization then the whole Indochina would be part of Vietnam

Actually Vietnam would be crush by China on the west side of Annam region. At the time there was no such thing as Viet ethnic or nationality. It was the Geow people, then Viet.