North Korea demands peace treaty with US Options

[Suijen]

I think it should have been 3 party talks. China+NK should bang on US to implement its obligations under the 1994 agreement which it unilaterally broke off which is what precipitated the whole "crisis". Going to six parties, the reasons that the US brought forward was to involve more donors to NK and also to apply more pressure to disarm. In the end we see the US had no intention of working on the "donors" part but was only interested in applying hostile pressure, while getting its allies to cover for the US failing to implement the original agreement.

NK is right to go out on its own to "provoke" US into 1-on-1 dealings. Chinese foreign policy has been too appeasing of USA, and it tends to overthink the web of its national interests. Recently the PLA has come out to become more involved in foreign policy. These guys put out a lot more character and they're much more value-centered in their dealings with others. That is the right approach and more effective approach.

Well, Bush refused to deal with the DPRK bilaterally unless the DPRK disarmed, but the DPRK developed its nukes for fear of the US's linking the DPRK with the Axis of Evil and then blowing one of the AOE up. The one thing the DPRK has always wanted was a peace-deal with the US and normalization.


It's then up to debate as to whether or not the DPRK are serious or are just stalling/messing around again.

[catman]

Which part of it is a problem for you?

Again, you said:

The only realistic peace treaty between them is a confederate solution, which both sides were working on before the US-supported Korean right wing derailed the process in order to support American hegemonistic interests.

When was this? Who was involved?

[catman]

catman is another white Canadian with a Korean "wife".

Nope.

It is so smug and insolent that they even deny notions that are accepted by everyone such as the notion that sanctions are responsible for starving and killing North Koreans.

I know you whine about backing up your claims but I'm going to ask you to do it again. The about statement is completely unsubstantiated. We've aruged this on the board before and the only evidence the Chinese nationalists who were making the claim could come up with was some guy on a blog. Nothing from a single NGO. No statistical evidence. Because there is no blockade of North Korea. Nothing preventing food from coming into the country. In fact they receive tons of aid from the outside world including the United States (which shouldn't be happening according to your logic.)

[mughal]

S.korea has a better option than try to reunify with n.korea.

N.korean thinking is wicked and they are completely out of the league in their thinking.
Rest of the world run on the clock of capitalism, and compete amongst based on who can achieve what first,
as time is money thinking.

To north korea, time is nothing and it stands still. To n.korea they can wait another 50 or even 100 yrs , for tides to change in their favor and to take over s.korea by force. Peace treaty, probably involve n.korea's asking to annex s.korea and US withdrawal from korean war theatre, or else the n.korea will continue to develope weapons and missle capabilities to one day reach the US mainland.

I think for s.korea to protect itself it can become a greater target that n.korea cannot one day swallow-up. Create a federal government with Japan. Or even join and become a 51st state of USA. After this n.korean thinking will finally change and cooperate with rest of the world. Recent s,korean FTA with EU is positive, and signing more FTA with latin america is also positive, S.korea increasingly becomes more important in global economics, and be out of reach from n.korean Kim regime.

This post has been edited by mughal: Jul 30 2011, 12:01 PM

[fireplant]

Well, Bush refused to deal with the DPRK bilaterally unless the DPRK disarmed

So what the US did was sign a deal with NK that had it join the NPT and freeze its program for nearly a decade, while refusing to implement the US part of the deal. Now US says it won't even talk about that, until NK falls for the trick ONE MORE TIME?

When was this? Who was involved?

I have suggested who and when multiple times already. Work it out yourself.

Create a federal government with Japan. Or even join and become a 51st state of USA.

Talk about "wicked and totally out of the league" LOL

[aDarkTemplar]

Nope.

He might not be Canadian, he might not have a Korean wife but he is white.

I know you whine about backing up your claims but I'm going to ask you to do it again. The about statement is completely unsubstantiated. We've aruged this on the board before and the only evidence the Chinese nationalists who were making the claim could come up with was some guy on a blog. Nothing from a single NGO. No statistical evidence. Because there is no blockade of North Korea. Nothing preventing food from coming into the country. In fact they receive tons of aid from the outside world including the United States (which shouldn't be happening according to your logic.)

You see most people understand sanctions destroy a peoples economy, an economic and political siege. A modern day blockade. People understand an economy allows a people to survive and live, and eat. Even a small research on wiki shows their overseas assets are frozen. It's not about me proving sanctions are starving North Koreans because it's understood that it does; not only from common sense but by the general population. Therefore the onus is on you to run around and grab all kinds of information to show that sanctions are not starving and killing North Koreans. Considering that is exactly what a sanction is supposed to achieve good luck. Your devious mind try to put the onus on us, to show rather than your outlandish position.

On a second point aid does not equal sustainable amount of living conditions. It would defeat the purpose of a sanction now wouldnt it. lol this is so ridiculous, you even fly against the face of your own western governments and intellectuals who acknowledge sanctions simply kill civilians.

You and Captain Corea are some of the most thick skinned white guys we have ever seen with some serious ugly views. The thing is you just happen to be less insistent than the 40+ year old super hero.

This post has been edited by aDarkTemplar: Jul 30 2011, 09:16 PM

[Nostylez]

S.korea has a better option than try to reunify with n.korea.

N.korean thinking is wicked and they are completely out of the league in their thinking.
Rest of the world run on the clock of capitalism, and compete amongst based on who can achieve what first,
as time is money thinking.

To north korea, time is nothing and it stands still. To n.korea they can wait another 50 or even 100 yrs , for tides to change in their favor and to take over s.korea by force. Peace treaty, probably involve n.korea's asking to annex s.korea and US withdrawal from korean war theatre, or else the n.korea will continue to develope weapons and missle capabilities to one day reach the US mainland.

I think for s.korea to protect itself it can become a greater target that n.korea cannot one day swallow-up. Create a federal government with Japan. Or even join and become a 51st state of USA. After this n.korean thinking will finally change and cooperate with rest of the world. Recent s,korean FTA with EU is positive, and signing more FTA with latin america is also positive, S.korea increasingly becomes more important in global economics, and be out of reach from n.korean Kim regime.

LOL.....USA USA USA our saviour of the world !!!

[catman]

I have suggested who and when multiple times already. Work it out yourself.

You posted an article about current President Lee agreeing with US diplomats. Not sure what that had to do with anything.

You mention Syngman Rhee being brought in by the US. Yet, the man was still elected President of South Korea.

Exactly how the US sabotaged the reunification of the Korean Peninsula still remains a mystery. If you're not up to the task maybe someone else is.

[catman]

He might not be Canadian, he might not have a Korean wife but he is white.

For the record I am a German born Canadian. Caucasian. No wife.

You see most people understand sanctions destroy a peoples economy, an economic and political siege. A modern day blockade. People understand an economy allows a people to survive and live, and eat. Even a small research on wiki shows their overseas assets are frozen. It's not about me proving sanctions are starving North Koreans because it's understood that it does; not only from common sense but by the general population. Therefore the onus is on you to run around and grab all kinds of information to show that sanctions are not starving and killing North Koreans. Considering that is exactly what a sanction is supposed to achieve good luck. Your devious mind try to put the onus on us, to show rather than your outlandish position.

You want me to prove a negative? Total logic fail. If it is so understood that these sanctions are killing North Koreans (which they aren't) it should be so easy to find an NGO or humanitarian organization that says so. Look up sanctions against Iraq. Plenty of information available about the devestation they caused. Why nothing on North Korea? Because maybe it is the government's fault? They are bordering an economic superpower but can't feed their own people?

Look at the famine in the 1990's that occured immediately after the collapse of the Soviet Union. North Korea has not been food self sufficient since the cold war. Wonder why?

The irony is that the policies that led to North Korea’s food disasters were designed by North Korea’s leaders to make the country independent of the rest of the world. Pushing an extremely xenophobic ideology, beginning in the mid-1970s North Korea’s leaders sought to limit all contact, including economic, between that country and the rest of the world.

http://www.overpopulation.com/articles/200...elf-sufficient/

HWACHEON, South Korea, July 7 (Yonhap) -- North Korean defectors said Thursday that they rarely received foreign food aid, the latest claim that could raise concerns on whether the planned aid by the European Union (EU) will reach intended recipients in the isolated country.

There was no immediate way to independently verify the claim, but there have been widespread allegations that the North has diverted outside food aid to its ruling elite and military, a key backbone of leader Kim Jong-il's iron-fisted rule.

"I ate South Korean rice in 2000, but most of the aid went to the military and high-ranking officials," a North Korean defector, who identified himself only by his family name Kim, told reporters.

Kim, who crossed the heavily fortified border into South Korea about a year ago, said most ordinary North Korean residents never saw foreign food aid, though they heard about it, as the outside aid was sent to a military warehouse.

He declined to give any further personal details, citing concerns about his family members left behind in the North.

North Korea reportedly metes out harsh punishments on family members and relatives of defectors.

A female defector from North Korea, who identified herself only by her family name Yang, claimed that South Korean food aid ended up being sold in markets.

The North Korean government "took all food aid so that ordinary people could not eat it," Yang said, adding that it would be better for the international community not to give aid to the North.

The North has relied on international handouts since the late 1990s when it suffered a massive famine that was estimated to have killed 2 million people.

http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/northkorea...003053315F.HTML



This post has been edited by catman: Jul 30 2011, 10:28 PM

[Captain Corea]

I think it should have been 3 party talks. China+NK should bang on US to implement its obligations under the 1994 agreement which it unilaterally broke off which is what precipitated the whole "crisis". Going to six parties, the reasons that the US brought forward was to involve more donors to NK and also to apply more pressure to disarm. In the end we see the US had no intention of working on the "donors" part but was only interested in applying hostile pressure, while getting its allies to cover for the US failing to implement the original agreement.

NK is right to go out on its own to "provoke" US into 1-on-1 dealings. Chinese foreign policy has been too appeasing of USA, and it tends to overthink the web of its national interests. Recently the PLA has come out to become more involved in foreign policy. These guys put out a lot more character and they're much more value-centered in their dealings with others. That is the right approach and more effective approach.

I love how casually you talk about provoking... when it's actual people who are dying.

The US has been one of the biggest aid donors to the DPRK over the decades and also donated $$ to the 1994 agreement. If they didn't want it to happen, why give nay money at all?

[Captain Corea]

He might not be Canadian, he might not have a Korean wife but he is white.



You see most people understand sanctions destroy a peoples economy, an economic and political siege. A modern day blockade. People understand an economy allows a people to survive and live, and eat. Even a small research on wiki shows their overseas assets are frozen. It's not about me proving sanctions are starving North Koreans because it's understood that it does; not only from common sense but by the general population. Therefore the onus is on you to run around and grab all kinds of information to show that sanctions are not starving and killing North Koreans. Considering that is exactly what a sanction is supposed to achieve good luck. Your devious mind try to put the onus on us, to show rather than your outlandish position.

On a second point aid does not equal sustainable amount of living conditions. It would defeat the purpose of a sanction now wouldnt it. lol this is so ridiculous, you even fly against the face of your own western governments and intellectuals who acknowledge sanctions simply kill civilians.

You and Captain Corea are some of the most thick skinned white guys we have ever seen with some serious ugly views. The thing is you just happen to be less insistent than the 40+ year old super hero.

You always have to try to attack (inaccurately) using personal jabs. You, or your previous incarnations, have asserted that sanctions/blockades are killing North koreans. When asked for proof, you shy away. It's easier for you to put out blanket statements like that without having to back anything up.

If you want to help out the Government of the DPRK so badly, what are you doing about it?

[aDarkTemplar]

You always have to try to attack (inaccurately) using personal jabs. You, or your previous incarnations, have asserted that sanctions/blockades are killing North koreans. When asked for proof, you shy away. It's easier for you to put out blanket statements like that without having to back anything up.

If you want to help out the Government of the DPRK so badly, what are you doing about it?

This is so ridiculous that its almost comedy. What proofs do you want? When I give you proofs in other topics like the IMF article you dismiss it and try to attack the writer. When that fails you just close your eyes. If you really wanted to know the truth you'd be open to the things I show you.

A sanction destroys the economy and isolates the nation from international friends and trade
When it is imposed by a super power almost everyone will comply with the sanction. The United Nations has imposed a sanction on North Korea which is everyone.
A destroyed economy creates poor conditions and lack of food
people need food and die when they dont get it.

I mean what are you asserting other than telling us to find a document that says this?

I dont even feel like I should need to show this but what does Carter mean when he says:
"In almost any case when there are sanctions against an entire people, the people suffer the most and the leaders suffer least," he said.

"And we believe that the last 50 years of deprivation of the North Korean people to adequate access to trade and commerce has been very damaging to their economy, as well as some problems they may have brought on by themselves," he added.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42744604/ns/wo...ea-ahead-visit/

What the F does he mean by that statement? I mean this is just ridiculous. You must bombard your Korean wife and family like this until they dont know left from right, up from down, and black is white. Your seriously noxious and you wonder why we are disgusted with you.

[fireplant]

You posted an article about current President Lee agreeing with US diplomats. Not sure what that had to do with anything.

You mention Syngman Rhee being brought in by the US. Yet, the man was still elected President of South Korea.

Exactly how the US sabotaged the reunification of the Korean Peninsula still remains a mystery. If you're not up to the task maybe someone else is.

If you can't see the extraordinary degree of US influence in South Korea and its support for confrontational approach since Lee came in office in 2008, which clearly has no prospects for producing results -- the very definition of sabotage -- then you're not worth my time, seriously.

[Captain Corea]

This is so ridiculous that its almost comedy. What proofs do you want? When I give you proofs in other topics like the IMF article you dismiss it and try to attack the writer. When that fails you just close your eyes. If you really wanted to know the truth you'd be open to the things I show you.

A sanction destroys the economy and isolates the nation from international friends and trade
When it is imposed by a super power almost everyone will comply with the sanction. The United Nations has imposed a sanction on North Korea which is everyone.
A destroyed economy creates poor conditions and lack of food
people need food and die when they dont get it.

I mean what are you asserting other than telling us to find a document that says this?

I dont even feel like I should need to show this but what does Carter mean when he says:
"In almost any case when there are sanctions against an entire people, the people suffer the most and the leaders suffer least," he said.

"And we believe that the last 50 years of deprivation of the North Korean people to adequate access to trade and commerce has been very damaging to their economy, as well as some problems they may have brought on by themselves," he added.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42744604/ns/wo...ea-ahead-visit/

What the F does he mean by that statement? I mean this is just ridiculous. You must bombard your Korean wife and family like this until they dont know left from right, up from down, and black is white. Your seriously noxious and you wonder why we are disgusted with you.

As always, you try to make this personal. Keep your racist agenda out of this.

Carter is a tool... and he's proving that more and more these days. If you want to quote him, all the power to ya.

What do sanctions mean? Does it mean that the DPRK cannot trade? That they are blockaded behind a wall? No. They can and do trade. If there were these absolute sanctions you talk about in place... the DPRK would have no external trade... yet they do.

The DPRK trades with nations it wants to trade with and that want to trade with it. If some nations choose not to trade with the DPRK, who are you to force them to trade?

Do you do business with the DPRK? Do you invest there?

Right... thought not.

[Suijen]

I love how casually you talk about provoking... when it's actual people who are dying.

The US has been one of the biggest aid donors to the DPRK over the decades and also donated $ to the 1994 agreement. If they didn't want it to happen, why give nay money at all?

Clinton did, but the Bush policy was Anything But Clinton.

[robot_devil]

Well well, just look at this!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/eu...ea-2307012.html

The EU is sending some 9 million pounds of aid to the DPRK as relief for the recent flood disaster. USA and South Korea are not happy about this! Going so far as to claim that, and i quote.... " South Korea says the North's food stocks are at more or less the same levels as they were last year." Heartless to say the least. China of course is doing its part. So much for the magnanomous Sam and those Southern brethren by blood. Can not drop the politiking even in the face of a humanitraian crisis. They have to first put the decision of whether or not to temporarily drop with sanctions through a public debate. Just laughable.

[catman]

If you can't see the extraordinary degree of US influence in South Korea and its support for confrontational approach since Lee came in office in 2008, which clearly has no prospects for producing results -- the very definition of sabotage -- then you're not worth my time, seriously.

Again lets look at what you said:

The only realistic peace treaty between them is a confederate solution, which both sides were working on before the US-supported Korean right wing derailed the processin order to support American hegemonistic interests.

You were merely talking about influence. You clearly indicated that a conferderate solution was being worked on. In fact there wasn't one.

[catman]

What do sanctions mean? Does it mean that the DPRK cannot trade? That they are blockaded behind a wall? No. They can and do trade. If there were these absolute sanctions you talk about in place... the DPRK would have no external trade... yet they do.

The DPRK trades with nations it wants to trade with and that want to trade with it. If some nations choose not to trade with the DPRK, who are you to force them to trade?

Exactly. North Korea continues to trade with many countries. Pyongyang supporters refuse to believe that there is no blockade.

[fireplant]

You were merely talking about influence. You clearly indicated that a conferderate solution was being worked on. In fact there wasn't one.

The term sunshine policy originates in The North Wind and the Sun, one of Aesop's fables. In the fable, the sun and the wind compete to remove a man's coat. The wind blew strongly, but the man clutched his coat and kept it on. The sun shone warmly, and the man voluntarily took off his coat to enjoy the fine weather. The main aim of the policy was to soften North Korea's attitudes towards the South by encouraging interaction and economic assistance.

The national security policy had three basic principles.

No armed provocation by the North will be tolerated.
The South will not attempt to absorb the North in any way.
The South actively seeks cooperation.
...
These principles were meant to convey the message that the South does not wish to absorb the North or to undermine its government; its goal was peaceful co-existence rather than regime change or re-unification.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunshine_Policy

Kim Dae Jung rejected "unification by absorption" but asserted "close, cooperative." relations. This process needed both Koreas to maintain and express this cooperation and keep good relations through inter-Korean organizations; this was to be the first stage to reunification. During this first stage, the two sides would keep maintaining two different systems, states, militaries, and foreign policies. In the second stage of the reunification process, which they believed would come after a long time of cooperating with one another, Kim Dae-Jung wanted to have the Koreas be one nation,one political system, but two autonomous regional governments. The third stage of this policy would be the real unification under a central government, and this would all be done with respect to the people of Korea and without their consent none of this could be accomplished. Kim Dae-Jung understood that the pride of North Korean's needed to be respected and that North Korea needed to be looked over by a separate government for the time being when thinking of this policy and reunification process. He tried to look at this situation from multiple perspectives, which could have been ideal if all worked out accordingly. Kim Dae Jung's Sunshine policy was similar to the North Korean tabled confederal plan in 1960, in which they both called for a prolonged period of confederation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_reunification


The Sunshine policy was the only realistic chance for a meeting of minds between North and South Korea.

[catman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunshine_Policy


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_reunification


The Sunshine policy was the only realistic chance for a meeting of minds between North and South Korea.

So when did the "US supported Korean right-wing" sabotage the Sunshine Policy.

.........and what did deal did they sabotage exactly?

This post has been edited by catman: Jul 31 2011, 09:59 PM