Unhappy campers take on 'Superman', Activists to lay siege to Li Ka-shing's HQ Options

[Mid-Night_Sun]

*disclaimer...i did NOT name this


Unhappy campers take on 'Superman'
Activists to lay siege to Li Ka-shing's HQ in protest against 'property-developer hegemony'
Ng Kang-chung and Amy n!p
Apr 08, 2011
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Tycoon Li Ka-shing - dubbed Superman because of his ability to make money - may need to call on some superhero powers to tackle a posse of angry young activists who want to lay siege to his corporate headquarters.

A group of protesters will set up camp outside the Cheung Kong (SEHK: 0001) Center in Central today for a three-day protest against Asia's richest man, who they say is a symbol of "injustice and property-developer hegemony".

The Cheung Kong camp follows an unorthodox protest by student activists in an outlet of ParknShop, the supermarket chain Li owns, which was filmed and posted on YouTube.

Some social commentators say the new types of protest show public discontent over so-called "property-developer hegemony" and the government's refusal to deal with it has reached a "critical point".

Others believe the "innovative" expressions of discontent could end up alienating the public.

The ParknShop protest at the Hunghom Bay Centre on March 26 - the YouTube film of which had the tag line "paralyse property hegemony for an hour" - brought a packed store to halt and led to police being called. Several young activists filled up their trolleys with shopping, stood in the check-out queue and then told the cashier they had decided not to buy anything, infuriating customers.

The YouTube clip shows a frustrated supermarket manager quarrelling with an activist. By yesterday evening, the clip had been viewed more than 3,200 times.

The activists, who police said were university students, eventually dispersed. There was no violence and no one was arrested.

But the protest seemed to have backfired, with many viewers posting critical comments. A "MJMrJuicy" wrote: "Your protest only affected the shoppers." Another, "alan", wrote: "A group of childish idiots."

A lecturer in Baptist University's department of social work, Shiu Ka-chun, said this sent a clear signal to the government that public discontent had reached a "critical point".

"Mr Li used to be an idol of Hong Kong people. But now he becomes a symbol of so-called property hegemony," Shiu said. "The government should be aware of the growing discontent and perhaps take a stronger stance against the developers."

An assistant professor in Polytechnic University's department of applied social sciences, Dr Chung Kim-wah, said: "Some sectors in society are getting more radical in conveying their messages because they find the usual channels like complaining to legislators ... have now become ineffective. The general feeling is that the government is not able to control the business sector."

But the ParknShop protest would serve no purpose. "They cannot affect Mr Li or any property hegemony at all, but only the other shoppers and the staff there," Chung said.

A ParknShop spokesman said it had noted the comments against the protesters.

Starting from tonight, a dozen activists from the youth branch of the Civic Party will spend three days camping outside the Cheung Kong Center. They said their action was to protest against the government's high-land-price policy and the overwhelming power large developers wielded in Hong Kong.

A Cheung Kong spokesman declined to comment last night.


http://www.scmp.com/portal/site/SCMP/menui...Kong&s=News


from my very biased POV, this is foolish.

This post has been edited by Mid-Night_Sun: Apr 11 2011, 02:51 AM

[qwerty2010]

It's actually a desperate attempt to speak up as there's NO WAY the HK govt or developers will listen to the middle class HKers. A HKU student I know complained bitterly that there's simply no hope in his future because he has to spend 30 yrs of his life working just to pay off the loan on a tiny flat of 700 sq ft, i.e. his life is OVER simply for being unfortunate enough to be born a HKer. That's how all his friends feel as well. This hopelessness is staggering, and we're talking about university graduates...imagine what an average guy has to endure.

As with the banksters and their cronies in the US govt., there will be no reigning in of their abuse, greed and excesses, no matter how the voters complain. I don't see how this can be solved any other way - it's not as if it's the first time the complaints about the property bubble have been raised in China and HK.

This post has been edited by qwerty2010: Apr 11 2011, 07:41 AM

[Mid-Night_Sun]

bah. you just cant please some people.

the HK government gave every citizen HK$6,000. program totaled to HK$36 Billion
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405...0256336088.html

65% of companies reported higher average wage rates in Dec 2010 than Dec 2009
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=259591

also 40,000 workers get a $28 plus due to new wage rate and a paid rest day per week.
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=261410

does it fix everything? no. but it sure is more than other countries are doing.

and if he has issues with his loan its with the banks. and how is having loan payments for years = life is over. that is the norm for most people. especially for students.


the high property prices is because there is a shortage in supply.

"The city is the world’s most expensive place to buy a home, because of a supply shortage, according to a study released by Savills Plc. last month."
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-21/h...-inflation.html




HK developers are the only ones that can build enough to curb this, not even the government can.

ie. one HK developer alone can already supply SIX times what the HK gov. did in 2009 and FOUR times their target of 20,000 flats per year
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=261408


pretty amusing attacking the only ones who can solve this supply problem.



ps. as for greed and abuse

Li Ka Shing spent $300 Million campaign called Love HK Your Way

“Love Ideas, Love HK” is the first initiative of LKSF's HK$300-million public philanthropic campaign “Love HK Your Way!”, an effort to engage Hong Kong citizens to improve our community on issues they deeply care about. Combining the powers of technology, charity and community awareness, “Love Ideas, Love HK” encourages Hong Kong residents to vote for projects they believe are beneficial to their community and should receive LKSF grants."


http://www.lksf.org/en/media/press/20101218

This post has been edited by Mid-Night_Sun: Apr 11 2011, 08:30 AM

[qwerty2010]

That $6000 or USD700 is nothing compared to what an average HKer has to pay for an average apartment - about HKD 4 million or USD 0.5 million for under 700 sq ft net. It's enough for a couple of meals for the family at a restaurant plus some change with raging inflation. HK has the HIGHEST property prices:annual income ratio in the world, 13 times annual income, if food, transport, childcare and other expenses are 0. With one of the highest cost of living in the world, it takes 30 yrs!! And for shockingly tiny and badly constructed apartments.

USD700 should compensate for 30 years indentured labor, RIGHT. Only when I see you sign on that dotted line will I be convinced you're genuine in thinking this is a good deal for HKers.

What causes the shortage? The govt is not building decent, affordable public housing. The developers are worse. That "Love HK" sad little HKD300 million or USD38 million PR Campaign celebrated with his Government cronies is quite funny - you think becoming one of the richest men in the world, USD26 BILLIONS, on the backs of HKers is something that would endear Li Ka Shing to the hordes who are angry about the blatant exploitation and monopoly of food chains, telecommunications, real estate?

The developers are the most hated people in HK - this is a "Let them eat Dim Sum" moment.

I think a better way for him to repair his image is to go to a forum or radio show and talk directly to those who are disenfranchised. However, talk or PR doesn't solve the problem of unaffordable housing.

I see my HK friends, all wonderful, decent young graduates, depressed and hopeless about their future, I don't see the prospect for optimism. You yourself started this thread, surely you can see something is brewing, not just in HK but also China.

No housing, little income left over after paying the high cost of living = Tunisia

This post has been edited by qwerty2010: Apr 11 2011, 08:55 AM

[Mid-Night_Sun]

rofl right. the gov. should pay for every citizens loans. wtf? since when does that EVER happen?

you cant complain about it should be higher quality apartments and then flip and say BUT AFFORDABLE.

thats not how it works.

tiny? there is ALREADY a supply shortage. how would make the units bigger solve anything??? and 700 sq. ft. isnt shockingly small for a 1 bedroom unit.



"At present, PRH rent, which is inclusive of rates, management costs and maintenance expenses, ranges from $259 to $3,525 with an average rent of $1,393 per month. The income-based rent adjustment mechanism provides a more flexible framework that matches rental adjustments to changes in public rental housing household income and could better reflect tenants’ affordability and contribute to the sustainability of Hong Kong’s public rental housing programme."

http://www.gov.hk/en/about/abouthk/factshe...ocs/housing.pdf

how is it not affordable

rent geared to income is very standard for government housing.



you try and make it seem like these flats are tiny and trash. but here is a virtual tour of Concord Block, the Harmony Block and the New Cruciform flats.

http://www.housingauthority.gov.hk/en/abou...0-0-0_4,00.html

This post has been edited by Mid-Night_Sun: Apr 11 2011, 08:57 AM

[faydabakery]

Sometimes its safer to rent an apartment. But if you believe in job security, balancing a loan is fine.

[qwerty2010]

Size of apartment is DESIGNED - when the supply of apartments is squeezed, the developers call the shots on everything, including how small (i.e. cheap to build) and how much to price the apartments. With 8 million people, it's not the most populous city in the world. The suburbs in Tokyo offer much cheaper and BIGGER, better built apartments with eco and energy saving features far, far superior to HK's. Is their labor cost lower? Their construction materials? That's because the Japanese developers make LESS, albeit, still a healthy profit.

Are you from a PR arm of HK Govt/Developers?

Anyway, your site crashed my computer.

A lot of HK movies are shot in HK public housing, eg. Fruit Chan's "Made in HK", easy to see how they're really depressing to live in.

This is more like the REAL HK public housing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LXKURWamIc

This post has been edited by qwerty2010: Apr 11 2011, 09:19 AM

[Mid-Night_Sun]

Size of apartment is DESIGNED - when the supply of apartments is squeezed, the developers call the shot on everything, including how small (i.e. cheap to build) and how much to price the apartments. With 8 million people, it's not the most populous city in the world. The suburbs in Tokyo offer much cheaper and BIGGER, better built apartments with eco and energy saving features far, far superior to HK's. Is their labor cost lower? Their construction materials? That's because the Japanese developers make LESS, albeit, still a healthy profit.

that is completely wrong. you clearly have ZERO experience developing a property. bylaws and approval process means it isnt REMOTELY up to the developer to call any shots. size is designed? ROFL. what a joke. look up what a step back, maximum density, ceiling height requirements are.

building codes. regulations.

Hong Kong Planning Standards and Guidelines
http://www.pland.gov.hk/pland_en/tech_doc/.../full/index.htm


Hong Kong Regulations - BUILDING (CONSTRUCTION) REGULATIONS
http://www.hklii.org/hk/legis/en/reg/123B/


Building Energy Standards and Codes (BESC)
http://www.arch.hku.hk/research/beer/besc.htm



of course you can build bigger in the suburbs, the max density is much lower. HK is far more dense, thus the maximum density is higher.


and beyond all this. it has to be APPROVED.

and beyond that people have to be able to BUY IT. i can build a unit that is 4000+ sq ft luxury penthouses. whats the point if you cant afford it??? if there is more rich in the suburbs, then they can afford larger unit sizes.


Read this before you make more ignorant statements


Public housing construction in Hong Kong: a review of its design and construction innovations
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-22...on-in-Hong.html

Our Environmental Peformance - Sustainability Report 2008/09
http://www.housingauthority.gov.hk/hdw/en/...performance.htm
be aware that is for public housing as well.


btw, is that how you debate in university? movies and youtube clips? my virtual tour link was for Harmony and Concord Blocks public housing.


Harmony and Concord Blocks "The Most Common Building Design in Hong Kong"
http://www.cityu.edu.hk/CIVCAL/book/harmony.html

This post has been edited by Mid-Night_Sun: Apr 11 2011, 09:58 AM

[qwerty2010]

that is completely wrong. you clearly have ZERO experience developing a property. bylaws and approval process means it isnt REMOTELY up to the developer to call any shots. size is designed? ROFL. what a joke. look up what a step back, maximum density, ceiling height requirements are.

building codes. regulations.


Hong Kong Regulations - BUILDING (CONSTRUCTION) REGULATIONS
http://www.hklii.org/hk/legis/en/reg/123B/


Building Energy Standards and Codes (BESC)
http://www.arch.hku.hk/research/beer/besc.htm



of course you can build bigger in the suburbs, the max density is much lower. HK is far more dense, thus the maximum density is higher.


and beyond all this. it has to be APPROVED.


Read this before you make more ignorant statements


Public housing construction in Hong Kong: a review of its design and construction innovations
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-22...on-in-Hong.html

Our Environmental Peformance - Sustainability Report 2008/09
http://www.housingauthority.gov.hk/hdw/en/...performance.htm
be aware that is for public housing as well.


btw, is that how you debate in university? movies and youtube clips?

Huh? WHO determines the SIZE of apartments?


Do you even know that HK is the ONLY city that I know of where the developers sell by GROSS floor area, not NET floor area? I.e. public spaces, landscape gardens, fire stairs, entrance lobbies, lift lobbies, are included in the sale. An apartment that is listed as 1000 sq ft can in fact be only 650 sq ft.??

That is blatantly ripping off buyers, with consent from the "authorities" who are supposed to protect buyers.

All the B$ PR materials from the HK government and developers can't change the simple fact that HK's housing is one of the SMALLEST in the world, it is smaller than ALL of the top price:annual income ranked nations, not just the most unaffordable in the world. You pride yourself on FACTS, yet you are now telling me that HK having the MOST UNAFFORDABLE housing in the world should not make HKers unhappy?

MOST UNAFFORDABLE HOUSING IN THE WORLD = UNHAPPY POPULATION.

That trumps everything you've got.

If you want to post only happy shiny stories, then don't start threads that feature UNHAPPY HKers.

I feel truly sympathetic towards the HK middle class, and I'm not even a HKer.


And don't resort to personal attacks. Don't even get there!

Epic FAIL.

Post all the BS you want, I'm out of here!

This post has been edited by qwerty2010: Apr 11 2011, 09:47 AM

[Mid-Night_Sun]

Huh? WHO determines the SIZE of apartments?


Do you even know that HK is the ONLY city that I know of where the developers sell by GROSS floor area, not NET floor area? I.e. public spaces, landscape gardens, fire stairs, entrance lobbies, lift lobbies, are included in the sale. An apartment that is listed as 1000 sq ft can in fact be only 650 sq ft.??

That is blatantly ripping off buyers, with consent from the "authorities" who are supposed to protect buyers.

All the B$ PR materials from the HK government and developers can't change the simple fact that HK's housing is one of the SMALLEST in the world, it is smaller than ALL of the top price:annual income ranked nations, not just the most unaffordable in the world. You pride yourself on FACTS, yet you are now telling me that HK having the MOST UNAFFORDABLE housing in the world should not make HKers unhappy?

MOST UNAFFORDABLE HOUSING IN THE WORLD = UNHAPPY POPULATION.

That trumps everything you've got.

If you want to post only happy shiny stories, then don't start threads that feature UNHAPPY HKers.

I feel truly sympathetic towards the HK middle class, and I'm not even a HKer.


And don't resort to personal attacks. Don't even get there!

Epic FAIL.

Post all the BS you want, I'm out of here!

the CITY does. they hold the power of APPROVAL.

i posted real estate knowledge. something you lack severely. which explains why you would think building codes/regulations is PR.

Net Floor Gross Floor

1. price is up to developer
2. what kind of idiot buys a unit without ever seeing a floor plan or looking at the unit itself. you cant trick anyone that a unit is actually 400 sq ft. bigger. unless you are beyond retarded. the fact you actually think you can is just funny.




how do you harp on the size of the flats?

1. you dont need that much space
2. HK is massively dense, there isnt ROOM for everyone to have 1,000+ sq. ft. units
3. you cant afford more space
4. you want more space, you have to pay more for it. DUH.


nothing you said trumps anything. you tried to continue your funny little crusade against bankers or w/e that thing was. but you stepped into an arena that is foreign to you and got served. now if you want to call what i said BS, that is your opinion. but anyone with even a little experience in real estate knows I am right. you pointing out there are people who are mad doesnt make all your statements about real estate magically correct.

This post has been edited by Mid-Night_Sun: Apr 11 2011, 09:54 AM

[chiuchimu]

I feel for the people living in HK. The housing cost in CA is unbelievable too so I know what it's like.

[qwerty2010]

the CITY does. they hold the power of APPROVAL.

i posted real estate knowledge. something you lack severely. which explains why you would think building codes/regulations is PR.

Net Floor Gross Floor

1. price is up to developer
2. what kind of idiot buys a unit without ever seeing a floor plan or looking at the unit itself. you cant trick anyone that a unit is actually 400 sq ft. bigger. unless you are beyond retarded. the fact you actually think you can is just funny.




how do you harp on the size of the flats?

1. you dont need that much space
2. HK is massively dense, there isnt ROOM for everyone to have 1,000+ sq. ft. units
3. you cant afford more space
4. you want more space, you have to pay more for it. DUH.


nothing you said trumps anything. you tried to continue your funny little crusade against bankers or w/e that thing was. but you stepped into an arena that is foreign to you and got served. now if you want to call what i said BS, that is your opinion. but anyone with even a little experience in real estate knows I am right. you pointing out there are people who are mad doesnt make all your statements about real estate magically correct.

You are UNBELIEVABLE.

Use some SIMPLE MATH.

If the PRICE per Sq Ft is US$1000, of course HKers cannot afford bigger flats.

If the PRICE per Sq Ft is US$500, then HKers can afford BIGGER flats.

There is plenty of land in the suburban areas of HK, yet supply is still tightly controlled.

Is it so hard to understand???

So WHO determine the PRICES in HK? You claim it's SUPPLY vs DEMAND.

Using SIMPLE ECONOMICS, with such HIGH DEMAND, WHY is there so LITTLE SUPPLY? Is it because smaller developers don't want to make money?

Imagine a country that sells apples for USD 10 per apple. Do you think other apples sellers wouldn't try to sell in that market??

It's FIXED. It's a CABAL.

The Govt & Developers collude to make HKers PAY THE MOST UNAFFORDABLE PRICES FOR HOUSING IN THE WORLD.

What's worse, HKers pay for GROSS (the TOTAL space of the development divided by no. of units, including lobbies, staircases, circulating corridors, etc.), not NET housing space (i.e. the actual space occupied by the unit), something that makes everyone who knows something about buying homes choke. They usually buy homes based on SHOWFLATS, and these have walls taken down and furniture that are specially made to make the space appear bigger. In the end, when EVERY developer does this trick in HK, there is no choice for HKers:

http://www.real-estate-tech.com/articles/SRS111002.htm

However, in Hong Kong, strata-titled units are sold on a GROSS floor area (GFA) basis which includes not just the exclusive floor areas but also their shares of the ‘common areas’. Moreover, there is no uniform method in delineating this gross floor area i.e. it is generally up to the developer’s fancy as to which and how much common areas are to be included. ....As such, different buildings-complexes would have different utilization percentages because the proportions between the unit-exclusive areas and common areas vary from building to building. Typically, these percentages range from 60% to 90%. However, some may go below 60%.

These are very simple concepts to grasp, yet all you have to show is a $38 million Feel Good PR Campaign by Li Ka Shing, government fake propaganda and personal insults to crow about your "triumph".

It is all about you having to win this argument, however, it is more important to get at the underlying TRUTH. It is HKers who lose!

You have nothing to refute the very SIMPLE FACT that HK is the MOST UNAFFORDABLE CITY IN THE WORLD and HKers ARE UNHAPPY about it.

The majority of HK flats are NOT 1000 Sq Ft, more like 600 Sq Ft., even though buyers have to cough up money for "1000 Sq Ft Gross". It is also heartless to talk about 600 sq ft being enough for a family of 4, and sometimes, with two generations living n the same flat, up to 8, with cage-like beds, to say that that is ENOUGH, while the HK developers become some of the richest billionaires in the world.

Of course it's easy to become billionaires when every HKer who wants to buy a 600 sq ft apartment has to pay off with 30 years of productive working life, with NOTHING left. If a family member gets a severe illness like cancer, like my friend's mother, there's really the end of the rope for many middle class HKers. This makes it more likely that HK could be the next Tunisia.

You talk so much about how wonderful Chinese are, or HK is so great, yet this is by all calculations severe ABUSE that you condone and support.

This post has been edited by qwerty2010: Apr 12 2011, 12:20 AM

[qwerty2010]

I feel for the people living in HK. The housing cost in CA is unbelievable too so I know what it's like.

Thank you, my HK friends need that. It's worse than Tokyo for now - the problem is that when the bubble burst, a lot of HKers who chase the speculation will end up like the Japanese who did the same, end up servicing life-long debt. In the US, most just drop the keys and walk away, in HK, they hire the triads to harass debtors.

I'm just glad I'm not a HKer, I feel very sorry for the middle class HKers I know, middle class but without homes. Of course the rich HKers are very contented, every one who owns a 1000 sq Ft flat is on paper, close to a millionaire.

This post has been edited by qwerty2010: Apr 12 2011, 12:08 AM

[Hugham]

Size of apartment is DESIGNED - when the supply of apartments is squeezed, the developers call the shots on everything, including how small (i.e. cheap to build) and how much to price the apartments. With 8 million people, it's not the most populous city in the world. The suburbs in Tokyo offer much cheaper and BIGGER, better built apartments with eco and energy saving features far, far superior to HK's. Is their labor cost lower? Their construction materials? That's because the Japanese developers make LESS, albeit, still a healthy profit.

Are you from a PR arm of HK Govt/Developers?

Anyway, your site crashed my computer.

A lot of HK movies are shot in HK public housing, eg. Fruit Chan's "Made in HK", easy to see how they're really depressing to live in.

This is more like the REAL HK public housing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LXKURWamIc

Quite right!

I don't watch the video, but I agree with the size and the price.

So tiny and expensive!!! So EVIL!!!

What's worse, HKers pay for GROSS (the TOTAL space of the development divided by no. of units, including lobbies, staircases, circulating corridors, etc.), not NET housing space (i.e. the actual space occupied by the unit), something that makes everyone who knows something about buying homes choke. They usually buy homes based on SHOWFLATS, and these have walls taken down and furniture that are specially made to make the space appear bigger. In the end, when EVERY developer does this trick in HK, there is no choice for HKers:

About the size, it's already well known that developer love to build a building, huge, tall and divided into a very tiny unit to maximize the quantity and profit. It's already became a culture that followed by almost all developers. There are no competition for building a larger unit with cheaper price, instead smaller unit and more expensive price. Everyone just care to maximize the profit! There's no other choice for the customers.

The developers are such egoistic, they are still threatening about economic slowdown and crash without ever thinking the happiness of their customers and proper size-price of their apartments.

This post has been edited by Hugham: Apr 12 2011, 02:04 AM

[Mid-Night_Sun]

You are UNBELIEVABLE.
Use some SIMPLE MATH.
If the PRICE per Sq Ft is US$1000, of course HKers cannot afford bigger flats.
If the PRICE per Sq Ft is US$500, then HKers can afford BIGGER flats.

you are pulling prices out of your @$$. developers price is typically determined by construction costs. if it cost $400 psf (300 for construction, 100 for soft costs) then they would want to sell for $500 psf. 100xsize is the profit.

listen very carefully, the PRICE is the DEVELOPERS DISCRETION. he can say 1 BILLION and not even MENTION sq. ft. if wanted. understand? if you want to say its overpriced thats one thing. but to suggest that you can TRICK people with this net floor gross floor crap is RETARDED. ill explain why later.

There is plenty of land in the suburban areas of HK, yet supply is still tightly controlled.
Is it so hard to understand???
So WHO determine the PRICES in HK? You claim it's SUPPLY vs DEMAND.
Using SIMPLE ECONOMICS, with such HIGH DEMAND, WHY is there so LITTLE SUPPLY? Is it because smaller developers don't want to make money?
Imagine a country that sells apples for USD 10 per apple. Do you think other apples sellers wouldn't try to sell in that market??
It's FIXED. It's a CABAL.
The Govt & Developers collude to make HKers PAY THE MOST UNAFFORDABLE PRICES FOR HOUSING IN THE WORLD.

holy crap. you think just because you have land you can start building? do you have any CLUE how long re-zoning processes can be? do you even know what re zoning is? after rezoning there is the entire approval process. then there is construction.

also, the government has policies that limit how many units to make in a year. right now its 18,500.

this is so stupid. you are out of your element and the sooner you realize that the sooner you can stop announcing your ignorance.

What's worse, HKers pay for GROSS (the TOTAL space of the development divided by no. of units, including lobbies, staircases, circulating corridors, etc.), not NET housing space (i.e. the actual space occupied by the unit), something that makes everyone who knows something about buying homes choke. They usually buy homes based on SHOWFLATS, and these have walls taken down and furniture that are specially made to make the space appear bigger. In the end, when EVERY developer does this trick in HK, there is no choice for HKers:

http://www.real-estate-tech.com/articles/SRS111002.htm

OK, let me make this very clear. the only one i can think who can get tricked to think a unit is bigger than it really is, is YOU. based on SHOWFLATS alone? i have NEVER, EVER heard of ANYONE who bought a unit without looking at a floor plan (which HAS the floor area on it) or gone to see the unit itself. even pre sold units people look at floor plans.

and if you think some wall building and furniture can make a showflat look 400 sf bigger you are even worse off than i thought.

ALSO, i DID post a link on show flats and the videos DO NOT show the hallways and corridors or common areas as part of the unit.

These are very simple concepts to grasp, yet all you have to show is a $38 million Feel Good PR Campaign by Li Ka Shing, government fake propaganda and personal insults to crow about your "triumph".
It is all about you having to win this argument, however, it is more important to get at the underlying TRUTH. It is HKers who lose!
You have nothing to refute the very SIMPLE FACT that HK is the MOST UNAFFORDABLE CITY IN THE WORLD and HKers ARE UNHAPPY about it.
The majority of HK flats are NOT 1000 Sq Ft, more like 600 Sq Ft., even though buyers have to cough up money for "1000 Sq Ft Gross". It is also heartless to talk about 600 sq ft being enough for a family of 4, and sometimes, with two generations living n the same flat, up to 8, with cage-like beds, to say that that is ENOUGH, while the HK developers become some of the richest billionaires in the world.
Of course it's easy to become billionaires when every HKer who wants to buy a 600 sq ft apartment has to pay off with 30 years of productive working life, with NOTHING left. If a family member gets a severe illness like cancer, like my friend's mother, there's really the end of the rope for many middle class HKers. This makes it more likely that HK could be the next Tunisia.
You talk so much about how wonderful Chinese are, or HK is so great, yet this is by all calculations severe ABUSE that you condone and support.

what you need to grasp is you have NO knowledge base on developing property so you need to stop making all these retarded assumptions. i am educating you. i dont need to win because you lost the moment you showed how little you really know about real estate despite making so many claims.

you just keep making dumb and dumber statements.

"Of course it's easy to become billionaires when every HKer who wants to buy a 600 sq ft apartment has to pay off with 30 years of productive working life, with NOTHING left."

that 30 year interest goes to the banks, not developers.

im not here to argue peoples happiness. im here to tell you to stop making retarded statements about real estate because you clearly dont know wtf you are talking about.




summary:

1. you complain about lack of supply, then complain about needing bigger units
2. you complain about higher quality, then complain about needing more affordability
3. you complain about HK being unaffordable and just oblivious to avg. wage increases, higher minimum wages and just how many handouts they get others dont

now if you cant understand how retarded that is, im not going to explain it to you because its a lost cause.

This post has been edited by Mid-Night_Sun: Apr 12 2011, 05:11 AM

[Hugham]

I'm so scare that one day in the future we will live in a "capsule apartment" like capsule hotel.

Buy apartment for 1 room, 1 door, 4 capsule beds, small tiny fold-able table and walled kitchen.

Toilet, shower, and laundry room is public space in ground floor........

The price? as expensive as today normal apartment unit size.

This post has been edited by Hugham: Apr 12 2011, 03:12 AM

[qwerty2010]

you are pulling prices out of your @$$. developers price is typically determined by construction costs. if it cost $400 psf (300 for construction, 100 for soft costs) then they would want to sell for $500 psf. 100xsize is the profit.

listen very carefully, the PRICE is the DEVELOPERS DISCRETION. he can say 1 BILLION and not even MENTION sq. ft. if wanted. understand? if you want to say its overpriced thats one thing. but to suggest that you can TRICK people with this net floor gross floor crap is RETARDED. ill explain why later.




holy crap. you think just because you have land you can start building? do you have any CLUE how long re-zoning processes can be? do you even know what re zoning is? after rezoning there is the entire approval process. then there is construction.

also, the government has policies that limit how many units to make in a year. right now its 18,500.

this is so stupid. you are out of your element and the sooner you realize that the sooner you can stop announcing your ignorance.






OK, let me make this very clear. the only one i can think who can get tricked to think a unit is bigger than it really is, is YOU. based on SHOWFLATS alone? i have NEVER, EVER heard of ANYONE who bought a unit without looking at a floor plan (which HAS the floor area on it) or gone to see the unit itself. even pre sold units people look at floor plans.

and if you think some wall building and furniture can make a showflat look 400 sf bigger you are even worse off than i thought.

ALSO, i DID post a link on show flats and the videos DO NOT show the hallways and corridors or common areas as part of the unit.




what you need to grasp is you have NO knowledge base on developing property so you need to stop making all these retarded assumptions. i am educating you. i dont need to win because you lost the moment you showed how little you really know about real estate despite making so many claims.

you just keep making dumb and dumber statements.

"Of course it's easy to become billionaires when every HKer who wants to buy a 600 sq ft apartment has to pay off with 30 years of productive working life, with NOTHING left."

that 30 year interest goes to the banks, not developers.

im not here to argue peoples happiness. im here to tell you to stop making retarded statements about real estate because you clearly dont know wtf you are talking about.




summary:

1. you complain about lack of supply, then complain about needing bigger units
2. you complain about higher quality, then complain about needing more affordability
3. you complain about HK being unaffordable and just oblivious to avg. wage increases, higher minimum wages and just how many handouts they get others dont

now if you cant understand how retarded that is, im not going to explain it to you because its a lost cause.

First of all, the Buyer borrows from the Banks and the MONEY GOES TO THE SELLER, i.e. DEVELOPER. It is very simple. It is like this the world over. The Buyer bears the DEBT plus the INTEREST, which he pays dutifully to the Bank.


The developers do NOT incur a loss, as they pocket the money right away!

When property prices crash, the Debtor defaults, the Banks get into trouble as they hold worthless property and BAD Debts, and guess WHO bail out the Banks??

Secondly, do you know what is the meaning of a SHOWFLAT?? It means that it is a nicely renovated EXAMPLE in a development that is still UNBUILT or INCOMPLETE. So buyers foot the bill for something based on an MODEL, they are not paying for the ACTUAL flat. You think if they can't tell with a Showflat they can tell with an even more abstract Floor Plan how big their apartment will be??

Seriously, your understanding of how the world of property, economics and finance is bizarre.

What's so difficult to understand that HK apartments are

1) The MOST UNAFFORDABLE IN THE WORLD - i.e. what's so hard to understand that AFTER all the wage increases, blah, blah, blah, EXPERTS (obviously that excludes YOU) MADE THE CALCULATION THAT AS A RATIO TO INCOME (i.e., including all of your blah, blah, blah..), IT IS THE MOST UNAFFORDABLE IN THE WORLD? It isn't me, it is EXPERTS. Prove the Experts WRONG by providing FACTS that shows the opposite!

You insist you like FACTS. Find this FACT - that HK is NOT the Most Unaffordable Housing in the World! Maybe you should just stop insulting others until you find the FACTS, OK??!!

http://demographia.wordpress.com/2011/01/2...ability-survey/

The just released 7th Annual Demographia International Housing Affordability Survey rates Hong Kong as the most unaffordable market out of 7 covered nations, with a Median Multiple of 11.4 (defined below). This year’s edition covers 325 metropolitan markets, up from 272 last year.

A Rating of 5 is considered "Unaffordable", US is rated 3, London is 7, HK is rated 11.4!


Not only is it the most unaffordable in the world, it is
2) Badly Built
3) TINY
4) HORRIBLE QUALITY
5) SOLD at GROSS, when everywhere else in the world, sold at NET?? Of course it isn't a "trick", every HKer knows that, but they don't have a choice, because the Govt. allows the Developers to get away with daylight robbery!!

That is the whole problem. All of your denials on behalf of HK Govt and Developers don't change REALITY.

I have enough of arguing with someone who apparently is still in Highschoolor argues like one.

This post has been edited by qwerty2010: Apr 12 2011, 06:06 AM

[qwerty2010]

I'm so scare that one day in the future we will live in a "capsule apartment" like capsule hotel.

Buy apartment for 1 room, 1 door, 4 capsule beds, small tiny fold-able table and walled kitchen.

Toilet, shower, and laundry room is public space in ground floor........

The price? as expensive as today normal apartment unit size.

It's already reality for a lot of people, eg. HK, unfortunately. However, I think it leads to a lot of social problems, and soon, things will get out of hand, when inflation rages out of control. I think that's the biggest threat faced by China and HK.

[Mid-Night_Sun]

First of all, the Buyer borrows from the Banks and the MONEY GOES TO THE SELLER, i.e. DEVELOPER. It is very simple. It is like this the world over. The Buyer bears the DEBT plus the INTEREST, which he pays dutifully to the Bank.


The developers do NOT incur a loss, as they pocket the money right away!

do you have issues remembering your own stupid statements or something? the 30 YEARS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DEVELOPER. yet you brought it up as a reason for getting rich. that 30 years and the interest on it is with the BANKS. get that through your head. no developer can force someone to buy. besides class a there is also rental, class b, class c and public housing.

btw thats something else for you to learn about. PROPERTY CLASSES.

http://www.answers.com/topic/class-of-property

Secondly, do you know what is the meaning of a SHOWFLAT?? It means that it is a nicely renovated EXAMPLE in a development that is still UNBUILT or INCOMPLETE. So buyers foot the bill for something based on an MODEL, they are not paying for the ACTUAL flat. You think if they can't tell with a Showflat they can tell with an even more abstract Floor Plan how big their apartment will be??

Seriously, your understanding of how the world of property, economics and finance is bizarre.

k please do some thinking before posting.

1. you claim it is possible to TRICK people with the size of units. WRONG. NOBODY buys without looking at a floor plan. NOBODY. except maybe you.
2. the SHOWFLATS DO NOT SHOW THE COMMON AREAS AS PART OF THE UNIT.

" if they can't tell with a Showflat they can tell with an even more abstract Floor Plan how big their apartment will be??"

WOW. that was so dumb. IF THEY CANT TELL THEN THEY WONT NOTICE ITS 400 SF SMALLER ANYWAY. although to suggest people cant tell when the measurements are LAID IN THE FLOOR PLAN is just....very typical of your logic so far.

WTF do you think is happening? some idiot looks at a floor plan thinking its 1,000 square feet and SEES THE UNIT IS NOT, then buys it and goes "well golly, its smaller then i thought. i thought it was 1,000 even though the floor plan said otherwise"?????

What's so difficult to understand that HK apartments are

1) The MOST UNAFFORDABLE IN THE WORLD - i.e. what's so hard to understand that AFTER all the wage increases, blah, blah, blah, EXPERTS (obviously that excludes YOU) MADE THE CALCULATION THAT AS A RATIO TO INCOME (i.e., including all of your blah, blah, blah..), IT IS THE MOST UNAFFORDABLE IN THE WORLD? It isn't me, it is EXPERTS. Prove the Experts WRONG by providing FACTS that shows the opposite!

You insist you like FACTS. Find this FACT - that HK is NOT the Most Unaffordable Housing in the World! Maybe you should just stop insulting others until you find the FACTS, OK??!!

http://demographia.wordpress.com/2011/01/2...ability-survey/




A Rating of 5 is considered "Unaffordable", US is rated 3, London is 7, HK is rated 11.4!


Not only is it the most unaffordable in the world, it is
2) Badly Built
3) TINY
4) HORRIBLE QUALITY
5) SOLD at GROSS, when everywhere else in the world, sold at NET?? Of course it isn't a "trick", every HKer knows that, but they don't have a choice, because the Govt. allows the Developers to get away with daylight robbery!!

That is the whole problem. All of your denials on behalf of HK Govt and Developers don't change REALITY.

I have enough of arguing with someone who apparently is still in Highschoolor argues like one.

LMAO you show up with one link and you think you have facts. you have any idea how many links i had to provide for you in this thread? you have ZERO understanding of zoning, approval processes, building codes or really anything to do with the real estate process at all.

and you post a link on it being unaffordable, like that magically made everything you were WRONG about right.

when in this ENTIRE THREAD did i say it was CHEAP in Hong Kong? NEVER. you completely bypassed EVERYTHING you keep getting WRONG and bring up something i didnt talk about and act like you made some sort of great rebuttal.

pathetic. seriously. pathetic.

2. hardly. you havent shown anything that suggests that. unless you mean your ridiculous youtube video. i had show flats from Concord Block, the Harmony Block and the New Cruciform. they are billed as "The Most Common Building Design in Hong Kong". the video speaks for itself. you are full of $hit.

3. yes. also irrelevant. there is a space problem. having bigger units means LESS UNITS. or did you FORGET that there is a SUPPLY issue? yeah you brought up developing MORE land. in your infinite ignorance in real estate you pointed to land and said "why cant you develop that", with ZERO knowledge on the process development. sad. truly sad.

4. once again, see the most common design in HK. the vid is right there. and that was PUBLIC HOUSING.

5. again, only you are dumb enough to fall for that. it doesnt matter if its net, gross, or not even MENTION SQUARE FOOTAGE. EVERYBODY sees a floor plan, whether its pre sold or with the actual unit.


LOL debate like a high schooler. you came with youtube videos and a reference to a MOVIE. do you know why you got schooled so hard by me?

because in 3 days i will have completed my Bachelor of Commerce degree in REAL ESTATE AND HOUSING.

http://www.uoguelph.ca/registrar/calendars...bcomm-reh.shtml

not only that, my family ARE DEVELOPERS.

i cannot stress just how mismatched and out of your element you are. my responses were mostly based on speed. im far from the best in my classes. my colleagues would DISMANTLE your funny statements in a FAR more detailed way.



ps. i didnt even get into the Official Plan. which is yet another HUGE reason that restricts land uses AND shows you have no understanding in development at all.

ps 2. tell your friend to try harder because the top HKU earner is HK$100,000 per MONTH. the avg gross salaries are all going up in addition to everything i mentioned before about minimum wage and handouts. also each graduate is getting 2 job offers on average. though i doubt you realize the significance of that either.

http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=261574

This post has been edited by Mid-Night_Sun: Apr 12 2011, 06:59 AM

[faydabakery]

do you have issues remembering your own stupid statements or something? the 30 YEARS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DEVELOPER. yet you brought it up as a reason for getting rich. that 30 years and the interest on it is with the BANKS. get that through your head. no developer can force someone to buy. besides class a there is also rental, class b, class c and public housing.

btw thats something else for you to learn about. PROPERTY CLASSES.

http://www.answers.com/topic/class-of-property





k please do some thinking before posting.

1. you claim it is possible to TRICK people with the size of units. WRONG. NOBODY buys without looking at a floor plan. NOBODY. except maybe you.
2. the SHOWFLATS DO NOT SHOW THE COMMON AREAS AS PART OF THE UNIT.

" if they can't tell with a Showflat they can tell with an even more abstract Floor Plan how big their apartment will be??"

WOW. that was so dumb. IF THEY CANT TELL THEN THEY WONT NOTICE ITS 400 SF SMALLER ANYWAY. although to suggest people cant tell when the measurements are LAID IN THE FLOOR PLAN is just....very typical of your logic so far.

WTF do you think is happening? some idiot looks at a floor plan thinking its 1,000 square feet and SEES THE UNIT IS NOT, then buys it and goes "well golly, its smaller then i thought. i thought it was 1,000 even though the floor plan said otherwise"?????




LMAO you show up with one link and you think you have facts. you have any idea how many links i had to provide for you in this thread? you have ZERO understanding of zoning, approval processes, building codes or really anything to do with the real estate process at all.

and you post a link on it being unaffordable, like that magically made everything you were WRONG about right.

when in this ENTIRE THREAD did i say it was CHEAP in Hong Kong? NEVER. you completely bypassed EVERYTHING you keep getting WRONG and bring up something i didnt talk about and act like you made some sort of great rebuttal.

pathetic. seriously. pathetic.

2. hardly. you havent shown anything that suggests that. unless you mean your ridiculous youtube video. i had show flats from Concord Block, the Harmony Block and the New Cruciform. they are billed as "The Most Common Building Design in Hong Kong". the video speaks for itself. you are full of $hit.

3. yes. also irrelevant. there is a space problem. having bigger units means LESS UNITS. or did you FORGET that there is a SUPPLY issue? yeah you brought up developing MORE land. in your infinite ignorance in real estate you pointed to land and said "why cant you develop that", with ZERO knowledge on the process development. sad. truly sad.

4. once again, see the most common design in HK. the vid is right there. and that was PUBLIC HOUSING.

5. again, only you are dumb enough to fall for that. it doesnt matter if its net, gross, or not even MENTION SQUARE FOOTAGE. EVERYBODY sees a floor plan, whether its pre sold or with the actual unit.


LOL debate like a high schooler. you came with youtube videos and a reference to a MOVIE. do you know why you got schooled so hard by me?

because in 3 days i will have completed my Bachelor of Commerce degree in REAL ESTATE AND HOUSING.

http://www.uoguelph.ca/registrar/calendars...bcomm-reh.shtml

not only that, my family ARE DEVELOPERS.

i cannot stress just how mismatched and out of your element you are. my responses were mostly based on speed. im far from the best in my classes. my colleagues would DISMANTLE your funny statements in a FAR more detailed way.



ps. i didnt even get into the Official Plan. which is yet another HUGE reason that restricts land uses AND shows you have no understanding in development at all.

ps 2. tell your friend to try harder because the top HKU earner is HK$100,000 per MONTH. the avg gross salaries are all going up in addition to everything i mentioned before about minimum wage and handouts. also each graduate is getting 2 job offers on average. though i doubt you realize the significance of that either.

http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=261574

I think it's too simple to just blame developers about the cost of living in HK. Maybe the government could do more to regulate apartment costs but demand is still demand.

I do however, understand the frustration of living in a city like HK. Its painful seeing half or more of your salary go to just basic living even with a good job. Also, regarding jobs, while statistically it sounds good, the reality is quite different. I've seen many highly skilled, experienced and intelligent people have trouble finding jobs. Getting a job is not just grades. You'll find that out when you graduate.

I'm sorry but criticizing his friend with your statistics shows your inexperience, youth and maybe a little separation from real life responsibilities into adulthood. You should not attack his friend like that because you don't know his friend's personal situation.