New Theory on Angkor, Who were the last Varman kings? Options

[SabaiSabai]

Yes, it spoke a similar language to Mon. If they spoke the same language they would have said they speak the same language. So, if it was a language related, but not the same, it would have been Khmer! Thank you. The city was named Tun Sun, which mean five cities. And there was a Mon kingdom with five kings. So it once again points to Khmer.

I'm pretty sure it said same language. I'm also pretty sure I wrote same language. Where did you get similar from?

Also to note. So according to you anything in the AA sphere is not Mon then it automatically becomes Khmer lol im sorry but once again you show how khmercentric and irrational you are. The term Mon-Khmer is only a term used as an alternative and easily understood name for Austroasiatic people. It doesnt mean all AA people were either Mon Or Khmer lol

And just one more thing that flakes the picture more clearer. Do you even know were Tun Sun is? It is just north of taguapa. north west of Chaiya. It has absolutely nothing to do with Cambodia. Where is the Khmer connection? In your imagination again?

This is another evidence of the link to Mon people. There is no Khmer connection.

[SEAhistory]

Here, about the craftsmen of Jayavarman:

As for the craftsmen who might have accompanied Jayavarman, there may be an evidentiary trace in the motif of monster masks with arms, at the far ends of a lintel, as seen at Tuol Kuhea (Boisselier 1968: Figure 31) and, on Mt. Kulen, on a lintel at Prasat Kraham (Stern 1938a: Plate 36A). Additional speculation might focus on the Panduranga kingdom of Champa, given the new dating of the temple of Hoa Lai to 778 CE and the Cham features of Prasat Damrei Krap on Mt. Kulen (Griffiths and Southworth, in press).
ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS

[SabaiSabai]

You only show me that the people indeginous were not Khmer before 550AD but were ruled by Khmer after.

The people were not Khmer. These people are the people of Ancient Chenla. These people were not Khmer. Who keeps claiming Chenla is Khmer lol

Bhavavarman and the other kings of Chenla come from these people.

[Jin4life]

Xian is actually a new name created by the Chinese-THai elite. It has no past historic evidence for Siam history past. If the Lao people knows quite well about the Siamese people and we sure never heard anyone called this new name "Xian" as Siamese or anything related to them or the kingdom in the past.

[SabaiSabai]

Ow yeah, another linguistic evidence. Java from the inscription, if it was Chaiya, as you claim,

Why would Jayavarman II not name it Jaya? Jaya as in SriviJaya is the same word as in Jayavarman and pronounced Jaya. If the inscription spoke about Chaiya, he would have named it Jaya, and not Java. i think it comes from the word Chvea, which similar names have been used for Champa.

Or it comes from Lavo, the Mon-kingdom conquered by Isanavarman.

Why I think it's Champa, because when Water-Chenla was taken by the Malays (they were seafarers, so could conquer the coasts, and that's why it was called Water-Chenla, since it was a maritime expedition) Jayavarman II had to flee. According to the inscriptions, etc. it is already proven that Jayavarmans career started in South-Cambodia and when he came from "Java" he also started in South-Cambodia. If Water-Chenla was in the south, Jayavarman II had to flee. As he came back with the temples show a increased influence of Javanese and Cham architecture. The Cham have shown a large influence from Javanese even more in time and explains that the Khmers inherited aspects of the Javanese style. So Lavo is less likely to be the place he fled to. Champa however, could gain a lot of power by being allies with the Khmers and fighting of the Malay conquerers of Water-Chenla, and explains the attacks of the Javanese/Malays on Champa after. It also explains why Jayavarman II didn't attack Champa and Champa didn't attack Angkor, but Jayavarman II moved westward. Another even that happened in 780AD, I believe holds a strong relation with Jayavarman II becoming king:

A stele dated 781 AD indicates that the Cham King Satyavarman regained power in the area of "Ha-Ra Bridge", and that he restored the devastated temple. From this inscription can be deduced that the area previously had come under temporary foreign dominion, and that foreign vandals had damaged the already existing temple. Other steles indicate that the temple had contained a mukhalinga decorated with jewelry and resembling an angel's head. Foreign robbers, perhaps from Java, "men living on food more horrible than cadavers, frightful, completely black and gaunt, dreadful and evil as death" had arrived in ships, had stolen the jewelry and had broken the linga.[2] Though the king had chased the robbers out to sea, the treasure had been lost forever. The steles also indicate that the king restored the linga in 784 AD.

There was never an attack by Java on Cambodia. The whole myth was created from interpreting the jayavarman II inscription. There is no record of an attack or invasion, it's all fantasy. So is the story of Jayavarman II being kidnapped and taken to Java lol all fantasy to make sense of what is written about him. All that is written is that he was came from Java and was returning to the place of his ancestors. Makes me wonder why he built his kingdom in Chenla territory and not Funan.

Jayavarman II path of conquest follows the old Indian trade route EXACTLY this is why it did not go east into champa or north further into Laos. It follows the Mekong north then heads west at the dangrek region.

The stele in Champa has absolutely no relation. The most likely robbers were Negritos perhaps of Papua new guinea or another island. It does not make any sense for kambujadesa to attack Champa by sea lol they could march a whole army there easily.

[LoveIsAllAround]

Makes much more sense than a Khmer empire that appeared out of nowhere and ruled everything roflmao

More evidence... King Narai's message sent to Portuguese King in 1684.

คำสั่งที่พระนารายณ์มหาราช มอบให้ทูตไทยไปโปรตุเกส ในปี คศ. 1684
"ให้ตอบถึงกษัตริย์โดยอ้างลงมาตั้งแต่ สมเด็จพระปทุมสุริยนรสนิสสวรบพิตร (Sommdethia Ppra Pattarma Souria Naaranissavoora Boppitra Seangae) (พระปทุมสุริยวงศ์?) ซึ่งเป็นผู้สร้าง ชัยบุรีมหานคร ใน พศ.1300 และกษัตริย์ที่ครองราชย์สืบมาอีก 10 พระองค์ ต่อมา สมเด็จพระยโศธรธเรนทร์ เทพราชอติ (Sommedethia Prayasouttora Ttarrena Ttepperraacchaatti) (พระเจ้ายโศวรมัน?) ผู้สร้างเมืองยโศธรนครหลวง (Yassouttor Nacoora Louang) และกษัตริย์ 12 พระองค์ที่ครองราชย์ที่นั่น ต่อมาเมื่อกษัตริย์สมเด็จพระพนมไชยศิริมเหศวรินธิราชบพิตร เสด็จไปประทับในสุโขทัย และในปี พศ 1731 พระองค์สร้างเมืองเพชรบุรี ที่นี่มีกษัตริย์ครองราชย์มา 4 พระองค์ ผู้สร้างนครของสยามในปี พศ 1894 ซึ่งปัจจุบันเป็นเมืองหลวงของอาณาจักร และเรียกว่า กรุงเทพพระมหานครศรีอยุธยา และพระองค์ครองราชย์มา 27ปี ดังนั้นจึงมีกษัตริย์ 50 พระองค์ใน 967ปี"

[SabaiSabai]

Xian is actually a new name created by the Chinese-THai elite. It has no past historic evidence for Siam history past. If the Lao people knows quite well about the Siamese people and we sure never heard anyone called this new name "Xian" as Siamese or anything related to them or the kingdom in the past.

Retard, the word Xian is found in Chinese records to name Siam. It's so easy to find. How the hell did you miss it. Oh right as if you actually knew anything about history rofl

[SabaiSabai]

Here, about the craftsmen of Jayavarman:

As for the craftsmen who might have accompanied Jayavarman, there may be an evidentiary trace in the motif of monster masks with arms, at the far ends of a lintel, as seen at Tuol Kuhea (Boisselier 1968: Figure 31) and, on Mt. Kulen, on a lintel at Prasat Kraham (Stern 1938a: Plate 36A). Additional speculation might focus on the Panduranga kingdom of Champa, given the new dating of the temple of Hoa Lai to 778 CE and the Cham features of Prasat Damrei Krap on Mt. Kulen (Griffiths and Southworth, in press).
ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS

The art of that period showed influence from many cultures, not just Champa. What's your point? They had to be Cham because they were influenced by Cham art? Lol

[SabaiSabai]

More evidence... King Narai's message sent to Portuguese King in 1684.

คำสั่งที่พระนารายณ์มหาราช มอบให้ทูตไทยไปโปรตุเกส ในปี คศ. 1684
"ให้ตอบถึงกษัตริย์โดยอ้างลงมาตั้งแต่ สมเด็จพระปทุมสุริยนรสนิสสวรบพิตร (Sommdethia Ppra Pattarma Souria Naaranissavoora Boppitra Seangae) (พระปทุมสุริยวงศ์?) ซึ่งเป็นผู้สร้าง ชัยบุรีมหานคร ใน พศ.1300 และกษัตริย์ที่ครองราชย์สืบมาอีก 10 พระองค์ ต่อมา สมเด็จพระยโศธรธเรนทร์ เทพราชอติ (Sommedethia Prayasouttora Ttarrena Ttepperraacchaatti) (พระเจ้ายโศวรมัน?) ผู้สร้างเมืองยโศธรนครหลวง (Yassouttor Nacoora Louang) และกษัตริย์ 12 พระองค์ที่ครองราชย์ที่นั่น ต่อมาเมื่อกษัตริย์สมเด็จพระพนมไชยศิริมเหศวรินธิราชบพิตร เสด็จไปประทับในสุโขทัย และในปี พศ 1731 พระองค์สร้างเมืองเพชรบุรี ที่นี่มีกษัตริย์ครองราชย์มา 4 พระองค์ ผู้สร้างนครของสยามในปี พศ 1894 ซึ่งปัจจุบันเป็นเมืองหลวงของอาณาจักร และเรียกว่า กรุงเทพพระมหานครศรีอยุธยา และพระองค์ครองราชย์มา 27ปี ดังนั้นจึงมีกษัตริย์ 50 พระองค์ใน 967ปี"

I'm just waiting for someone to make a claim king Narai is a khmer now rofl I bet it will happen. These people will try to connect anything with Khmer lol

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[Leeporter]

LoveIsAllAround, you still remember about Xia-Tho of Che-Tu you posted many weeks ago?

I just went back to read about its detail today and I found this interesting fact from Chineses record.

This is what an officer of China told the emperor of China during King Taksin period (1770 -1780) when he tried to contact China.

"ข้าพเจ้าทั้งหลายได้ตรวจดูเรื่องเสี้ยมหลอก๊ก มีต่อเนื่องมา แต่ครั้งวงษ์สุยวงษ์ถัง สมัยโน้นเรียกว่าเชียะโท้วก๊ก ด้วยครั้ง พระเจ้าสุยทางเต้ พระเจ้าสุยทางเต้ขึ้นครองราชสมบัติปีอิดทิ้ว (ตรงปีฉลู พุทธศักราช ๑๑๔๘ ปีก่อนจุลศักราช ๓๓ ปี) ลำดับ กระษัตรที่ ๒ วงษ์สุย ขนานนามแผ่นดินเรียกว่าไต๊เงียบ (แผ่นดิน ไต๊ ๑๒ ปี) ขุนนางสุนฉังจู๊ซื่อชื่อเสียงจุ่นไปถึงเชียะโท้วก๊ก ได้ความ ว่าเชียะโท้วก๊กอ๋องแซ่ขืหุน หรือเห็นว่าเชียะโท้วก๊กอ๋องนับถือหุดก่า (พุทธสาสนา) จึงคาดคเนว่าก๊กอ๋องมีแซ่เหมือนหุด ครั้นตรวจดูประวัติสถานราชทูตเสี้ยมหลอก๊กมีปรากฏว่า ชาวเสี้ยมหลอก๊กมีชื่อไม่มีแซ่ การก็ล่วงเลยช้านานมาพันปีเศษแล้ว จะมีแซ่หรือไม่มีแซ่ข้อความก็ไม่ถูกต้องกัน แต่ชาวเสี้ยมหลอก๊กนั้นเชื้อสายชาวหูหลำด้วยหนังสือหลำซื้อมีเรื่องนานาประเทศซึ่งอยู่ชายทเลหัวนอนหรือทิศใต้ ว่าหูหลำก๊กนั้นเดิมสตรีเปนอ๋อง ขนานนามว่าสิ้วเหียะ หนังสือเหมงอ๋องก่ายสกทงเค้า ยกย่องผู้หญิงเสี้ยม หลอก๊กว่ามีสติปัญญายิ่งกว่าผู้ชาย หรือจะเปนขนบธรรมเนียมชาว หูหลำต่อเนื่องมา"

Translation:

"I've traced and found that the history of SiamLo Kok could be traced back to Tang dynasty. SiamLo Kok used to be called Xia-Toh Kok (เฉตู) During Sui Tang Te (605 / during Mahendravarman of Chenla), the second emperor of Sui, an officer names "Siang Ju" was sent to Xia-Toh Kok and heard that the king of Xia-Toh Kok was a descendent of Lord Buddha, but people in Xia-Toh Kok then didn't use surname and it's a thousand years since then so it was not possible to verify whether that was true or not. But one thing for sure, SiamLo Kok are descendant of "Hu Lam" because the book of Lam Sue has a name of countries in the south sea and said that Hu Lam Kok used to have female king named "Sio Hia." The book of "Meng Ong Kai Sok Tong Kao" praised the women of SiamLo Kok to be more intelligence than men; that could inherit from their ancestor of Hu Lam."

Summary: The Chinese reported that SiamLo Kok used to be called "Xia-Toh" by Chinese, and the people of SiamLo Kok are descendant of "Hu Lam"

My quetion is, what is Hu Lam?

[SabaiSabai]

Came out of nowhere? The Chams came to the mainland around 200BC. The reason to come was to build a city port and hold control over the people. Around 200BC the area around Tonlé Sap was heavily influenced by people that had great agriculture. After they had many centuries to develop to become the Khmer rulers. It's not out of nowhere.

The civilisation of the region was Dong Son. Are you now claiming Dong Son people are Khmer? Lol

Or are you actually claiming Khmers are Chams?

Chams are Chams. Who is Khmer? Lol

[PongThep]

How bout some proof? anybody can rhyme words together hahaha. Gay thais should stick to buiding their gay Buddha and penis temples. LOL

[Jin4life]

LOL! Thai and there rhyming lesson. It's like saying Great Britain is English who colonized Thailand or Tailand under one common wealth of the English.

Also watch this video about this Thai nationalist who is creating an up roar among the Lao community around the globe. This will be something to watch in the near future http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feat...p;v=ASv6p34GpTY

This post has been edited by Jin4life: Feb 11 2012, 12:48 PM

[SEAhistory]

what?

These ancient Mon people already had their own art and culture before Kambujadesa was created. Don't you think your Khmer art look like this Mon Dvaravati?

And what sculpture in Cambodia shows this influnce before 550AD?

[SabaiSabai]

Once again Laotards showing that they have nothing good to contribute to the world lol no wonder Laos is so underdeveloped.

Such losers lol you must make your parents proud rofl

Oh and take your trolling to another thread. No one really cares about you attention seeking children lol

This post has been edited by SabaiSabai: Feb 11 2012, 06:45 PM

[Jin4life]

^
Phongthip what is you'r problem with the Lao people? Perhaps you can spit it out for us Laotian to understand you're Lao issue and Thai in general?



This post has been edited by Jin4life: Feb 11 2012, 07:00 PM

[LoveIsAllAround]

LOL! Thai and there rhyming lesson. It's like saying Great Britain is English who colonized Thailand or Tailand under one common wealth of the English.

Also watch this video about this Thai nationalist who is creating an up roar among the Lao community around the globe. This will be something to watch in the near future http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feat...p;v=ASv6p34GpTY

Thai and Lao is like English and Irish. Keep struggling, LaotardBoi.

[LoveIsAllAround]

LoveIsAllAround, you still remember about Xia-Tho of Che-Tu you posted many weeks ago?

I just went back to read about its detail today and I found this interesting fact from Chineses record.

This is what an officer of China told the emperor of China during King Taksin period (1770 -1780) when he tried to contact China.

"ข้าพเจ้าทั้งหลายได้ตรวจดูเรื่องเสี้ยมหลอก๊ก มีต่อเนื่องมา แต่ครั้งวงษ์สุยวงษ์ถัง สมัยโน้นเรียกว่าเชียะโท้วก๊ก ด้วยครั้ง พระเจ้าสุยทางเต้ พระเจ้าสุยทางเต้ขึ้นครองราชสมบัติปีอิดทิ้ว (ตรงปีฉลู พุทธศักราช ๑๑๔๘ ปีก่อนจุลศักราช ๓๓ ปี) ลำดับ กระษัตรที่ ๒ วงษ์สุย ขนานนามแผ่นดินเรียกว่าไต๊เงียบ (แผ่นดิน ไต๊ ๑๒ ปี) ขุนนางสุนฉังจู๊ซื่อชื่อเสียงจุ่นไปถึงเชียะโท้วก๊ก ได้ความ ว่าเชียะโท้วก๊กอ๋องแซ่ขืหุน หรือเห็นว่าเชียะโท้วก๊กอ๋องนับถือหุดก่า (พุทธสาสนา) จึงคาดคเนว่าก๊กอ๋องมีแซ่เหมือนหุด ครั้นตรวจดูประวัติสถานราชทูตเสี้ยมหลอก๊กมีปรากฏว่า ชาวเสี้ยมหลอก๊กมีชื่อไม่มีแซ่ การก็ล่วงเลยช้านานมาพันปีเศษแล้ว จะมีแซ่หรือไม่มีแซ่ข้อความก็ไม่ถูกต้องกัน แต่ชาวเสี้ยมหลอก๊กนั้นเชื้อสายชาวหูหลำด้วยหนังสือหลำซื้อมีเรื่องนานาประเทศซึ่งอยู่ชายทเลหัวนอนหรือทิศใต้ ว่าหูหลำก๊กนั้นเดิมสตรีเปนอ๋อง ขนานนามว่าสิ้วเหียะ หนังสือเหมงอ๋องก่ายสกทงเค้า ยกย่องผู้หญิงเสี้ยม หลอก๊กว่ามีสติปัญญายิ่งกว่าผู้ชาย หรือจะเปนขนบธรรมเนียมชาว หูหลำต่อเนื่องมา"

Translation:

"I've traced and found that the history of SiamLo Kok could be traced back to Tang dynasty. SiamLo Kok used to be called Xia-Toh Kok (เฉตู) During Sui Tang Te (605 / during Mahendravarman of Chenla), the second emperor of Sui, an officer names "Siang Ju" was sent to Xia-Toh Kok and heard that the king of Xia-Toh Kok was a descendent of Lord Buddha, but people in Xia-Toh Kok then didn't use surname and it's a thousand years since then so it was not possible to verify whether that was true or not. But one thing for sure, SiamLo Kok are descendant of "Hu Lam" because the book of Lam Sue has a name of countries in the south sea and said that Hu Lam Kok used to have female king named "Sio Hia." The book of "Meng Ong Kai Sok Tong Kao" praised the women of SiamLo Kok to be more intelligence than men; that could inherit from their ancestor of Hu Lam."

Summary: The Chinese reported that SiamLo Kok used to be called "Xia-Toh" by Chinese, and the people of SiamLo Kok are descendant of "Hu Lam"

My quetion is, what is Hu Lam?

I think the one who translated that Chinese annal, may use Teochew accent when translated to Thai. Hu Lam maybe be Hu Nan? or Fu Nan?

But I notice, Old CHinese see Central and Southern Thailand in the past as same region, called Xian, that might trace from Xia Tou.