Hypersonic smart missile may able to break down, US Style Aegis defense Options

[lilzz]

Expanding from and drawing reference from
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?...p;#entry3740476

As the missiles getting faster and faster, would that place physcial limit on interceptor using weapons like SeaRAM and CIWS.

sure, the radar and IR detection can track the missile but can they knock it out as its speed increases?

Alot of current antiship missile can travel mach1 to mach 2 but what if they are traveling Mach5 to Mach6.

Let me illustrate a point. this draws reference from a poster from previous thread. Let's first talk about the CIWS.
if the radar detects the missile at point A, now the gun is not going to shoot point A because by the time the bullets reach point A, the missile already left that point. So, the CIWS computer has to make extrapolation on where to shoot the missile at point B. But how does the system determine point B? the missile might not travel at constant speed. so this extrapolation leave room for error.


secondly, on the intercepting missile like SeaRAM. let say SeaRAM has its radar and IR detection, and incoming missile also has its onboard radar, therefore, both missile are aware of each other. SeaRAM can't go too fast else they will pass the intercepting point before the target arrived. SeaRAm has to slow down and wait for the target come to the intercepting point.

Now, the target missile awares of the SeaRAM presence therefore, when it almost arrive at the intercepting point, it suddently increase its speed from MAch5 to Mach6 and zoom pass that intercept point...

Now SeaRAM has to catch up the target but it's slow and no match in speed against the hypersonic missile which feature special type of engines.

Therefore for hypersonic missile with variable speed and has onboard radar for situation awareness, it will give the SeaRAM and CIWS system trememdous headaches.

The missile will throttle and vary its speed when it's illuminated therefore the radar can't predict and compute a firing solution.

It's hypersonic speed will guarantee it to overrun the interceptor missile if necessary.

This post has been edited by lilzz: Jun 6 2008, 11:49 PM

[Red Fox Ace]

As the missiles getting faster and faster, would that place physcial limit on interceptor using weapons like SeaRAM and CIWS.

You forget, the response also adapts as well as the threat. As missiles become faster and faster, chances are that warships would no longer use SeaRAM or CIWS, but would perhaps use high-energy lasers instead, or another new form of defense.

But how does the system determine point B? the missile might not travel at constant speed. so this extrapolation leave room for error.

This is the reason for “proximity defenses” like the SM-2 Standard missile, which does not hit an enemy missile head-on but rather, explodes in the nearby vicinity – ideally perhaps a few hundred feet in front of the enemy missile, so that the expanding blast wave circle of force will “catch” the enemy missile and either destroy it, or damage it and knock it off course so badly with crippled sensors that it becomes harmless.


There is no way a missile can possibly dodge such a rapidly expanding blast wave circle in time if the blast is directly in front of it. This is even the more true for a Mach 5 or Mach 6 missile as you describe. It’s moving so fast at such a high speed – how can it possible duck or dodge or evade in time?

[kiengiang]

What the U.S should do is invite the Russian or Chinese to a shootout contest. The Russian and Chinese would launch their supersonic anti-ship missiles at the Aegis destroyers and the destroyers would launch any kind of counter attacked to shoot down the anti-ship missiles. If I were the U.S, I would love to prove how the Aegis destroyers can shoot down the supersonic anti-ship missle instead of just sabre rattling talk

[higginm]

These russian missiles are ace.

The USA need to get themselves on top of this, or their multi billion dollar aircracft carriers could be toast in a conflict.

Clever Ruskies! lol

This post has been edited by higginm: Jun 7 2008, 12:06 AM

[kiengiang]

You forget, the response also adapts as well as the threat. As missiles become faster and faster, chances are that warships would no longer use SeaRAM or CIWS, but would perhaps use high-energy lasers instead, or another new form of defense.
This is the reason for “proximity defenses” like the SM-2 Standard missile, which does not hit an enemy missile head-on but rather, explodes in the nearby vicinity – ideally perhaps a few hundred feet in front of the enemy missile, so that the expanding blast wave circle of force will “catch” the enemy missile and either destroy it, or damage it and knock it off course so badly with crippled sensors that it becomes harmless.
There is no way a missile can possibly dodge such a rapidly expanding blast wave circle in time if the blast is directly in front of it. This is even the more true for a Mach 5 or Mach 6 missile as you describe. It’s moving so fast at such a high speed – how can it possible duck or dodge or evade in time?

According to you, Aegis destroyers are invincible that any supersonic anti-ship missile flies toward them will be shot down, then why don't the U.S do some demos by launching a few Harpoons at one of their Aegis destroyers to prove that the Harpoons can't do jack against the Aegis. Do that and post the video on Youtube to prove their case then, after all Harpoon is only a few million bucks

[Red Fox Ace]

According to you, Aegis destroyers are invincible

I said no such thing.

Then why don't the U.S do some demos by launching a few Harpoons at one of their Aegis destroyers to prove that the Harpoons can't do jack against the Aegis. Do that and post the video on Youtube to prove their case then, after all Harpoon is only a few million bucks

Talk about PR that could potentially be twisted and misused; then all of those critics would be harping on and on about what a useless slow old missile Harpoon is. Bear in mind that the U.S. Navy also uses SM-2MR in a secondary antiship role, which has a drastically different speed and flight profile than slow sea-skimmers like Harpoon.

[Red Fox Ace]

These russian missiles are ace.

Not exactly, their precise strength is their weakness (high speed = high friction = heat, which easily is picked by SeaRAM infrared,) and I wouldn’t be surprised if their sensors or computation is lacking in quality. Bear in mind that such missiles as Sunburn typically cannot be launched at maximum range because they require mid-flight targeting updates.

The USA need to get themselves on top of this, or their multi billion dollar aircracft carriers could be toast in a conflict.

The USA has multiple ways to get on top. They could sink Russian warships prior to them ever getting a chance to launch their missiles. Or they could shoot down the aircraft or helicopters that provide mid-flight updates. This never takes ECM into account either.


Barring all of this, an aircraft carrier is hardly as fragile as some would believe. Aircraft carriers have more than 2,000 watertight compartments, making sinking a Nimitz carrier like trying to sink bubble wrap; nearly impossible. Flight decks these days are armored with more than 4 inches of HY-100 steel (same steel as used in Seawolf class SSNs, extremely hard and resistant.) This does not mention 20+ bulkheads on the deck for added reinforcement, along with water pumps that can correct a 15-degree unstable list to one side in a few minutes.

[lilzz]

Not exactly, their precise strength is their weakness (high speed = high friction = heat, which easily is picked by SeaRAM infrared,)

yeah, infrared can track but it not used to killl the target missile. A interceptor missile actually has to go out and do the job whereas the variable speed by the target missile can make your prediction of intercepting point very difficult.

keep in mind tracking and killing are two different events because tracking is realtime whereas killing involves the prediction part.

SeaRAM generally shoot straight to the predicted point, it's not going to maneuver around to find the target missile.

This post has been edited by lilzz: Jun 7 2008, 10:21 AM

[furball]

Why hasn't anyone used ship mounted high power lasers yet?

[Red Fox Ace]

Why hasn't anyone used ship mounted high power lasers yet?

To my understanding, it's in part due to the water vapor mist or humidity that tends to exist at sea level near a warship, making a laser a bit hazy. Or it may be because of the extremely high electricity/power requirement for a missile defense laser, which a warship might not be able to have. Or it may just be because such lasers are still in development and haven't entered service yet (THEL, for example, is only being tinkered with by the Israelis and the Americans have done little with their MIRACL laser project.)

[forgiveness]

Expanding from and drawing reference from
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?...p;#entry3740476

As the missiles getting faster and faster, would that place physcial limit on interceptor using weapons like SeaRAM and CIWS.

sure, the radar and IR detection can track the missile but can they knock it out as its speed increases?

Alot of current antiship missile can travel mach1 to mach 2 but what if they are traveling Mach5 to Mach6.

Let me illustrate a point. this draws reference from a poster from previous thread. Let's first talk about the CIWS.
if the radar detects the missile at point A, now the gun is not going to shoot point A because by the time the bullets reach point A, the missile already left that point. So, the CIWS computer has to make extrapolation on where to shoot the missile at point B. But how does the system determine point B? the missile might not travel at constant speed. so this extrapolation leave room for error.
secondly, on the intercepting missile like SeaRAM. let say SeaRAM has its radar and IR detection, and incoming missile also has its onboard radar, therefore, both missile are aware of each other. SeaRAM can't go too fast else they will pass the intercepting point before the target arrived. SeaRAm has to slow down and wait for the target come to the intercepting point.

Now, the target missile awares of the SeaRAM presence therefore, when it almost arrive at the intercepting point, it suddently increase its speed from MAch5 to Mach6 and zoom pass that intercept point...

Now SeaRAM has to catch up the target but it's slow and no match in speed against the hypersonic missile which feature special type of engines.

Therefore for hypersonic missile with variable speed and has onboard radar for situation awareness, it will give the SeaRAM and CIWS system trememdous headaches.

The missile will throttle and vary its speed when it's illuminated therefore the radar can't predict and compute a firing solution.

It's hypersonic speed will guarantee it to overrun the interceptor missile if necessary.

hi mach numbers are possible but how do develop a missile that can reach mach 5; however; you would have to sacrafice power/speed to range ratio. even if you manage to develop something that is capable of 2-3 maybe 4 kilometers it would still be facing all the CIWS, RAMs and anti-ship aircraft in the battle group. CIWS might be able to pick up the missile using different positions. all said we haven't even considered what type of tracking its gonna use.

its its gonna be "SMART" we are gonna assume it has the capability to send and recieve data on its own. gonna be a problem because of the weight issue because if you can't maneuver the missile at hight speeds it would be pointless to make it SMART in the first place.

another option would to have the aircraft use its radar system to track the ship and send data to the ship. however the aircraft would have to be very very close to the battle group. if the aircraft is shot down then the missile wouldn't be able track the ships final positions.

what else? i don't know of any other tracking methods other than painting the target or no tracking system at all. but that would be what we called a RPG.

[Red Fox Ace]

hi mach numbers are possible but how do develop a missile that can reach mach 5;

High speed is probably relatively easy. The difficult thing would be overcoming the drawbacks of such a missile; namely, its ease of being detected and tracked, its little reaction time (at high speed, the missile has extremely little time to make maneuvers as circumstances change.)


Finally, a high-speed Mach 5 missile would be more easily “spoofed” by ECM, because even a little change in its course as it nears the warship could make it miss entirely – due to its extremely high speed. There is very little forgiveness or margin for error.

another option would to have the aircraft use its radar system to track the ship and send data to the ship. however the aircraft would have to be very very close to the battle group. if the aircraft is shot down then the missile wouldn't be able track the ships final positions.

Such aircraft are frequently used (i.e., P-3C Orion or Chinese Y-8,) they provide “mid-flight targeting updates for the missile who usually flies “nose cold” (i.e., sensors turned off) to reduce emissions and stay relatively stealthy up to halfway midpoint. Then the aircraft provides the new targeting update for the missile, who flies to within 10-20 miles of the target.



Then the missile turns on all sensors and goes “nose hot.” This is called terminal guidance, and the missile guides itself to the ship. So yes, “smart” missiles as you describe do exist – they’ve been around since the 1960s I think.

however; you would have to sacrafice power/speed to range ratio.

Not really; missiles like Sunburn have 120km range and Taiwan’s new Mach 3 Hsiung Feng HF-3 antiship missile has a range of reportedly 300km. Don’t forget, these missiles are not small. They are pretty huge. They carry a lot of rocket booster and solid fuel propellant.

[lilzz]

"Smart" in a sense that the target has constant on onboard LPI radar and IR sense to see the interceptor missile coming in.

It's hard maneuver or change direction at such high speed but its evasive action can be accelerate or decclerate which can be accomplished.

SeaRAM is simple rocket type , once launched it will maintain constant speed until it hits predicted interception point.

The hypersonic missile doesn't have to travel at maximum speed all the way. It can for example travel at mach 1 to Mach2 then accelerate to Mach 5 to 6 during final stretch.

The biggest problem engaging hypersonic missile is reaction time, Mach 6 means the missile is traveling at 2km per second, the reaction time for a CIWS is around 7-8 seconds, the maximum engage distance for is usually 2km, so the CIWS has to be able to find, and lock on to the target 18km away, and it has less than one second to shoot at the target.

anyway, If such a missile gets that close however, there will of course be a lot of debris hitting the ship with high momentum even if it's hit by the CIWS bullets.

This post has been edited by lilzz: Jun 7 2008, 10:18 PM

[Red Fox Ace]

"Smart" in a sense that the target has constant on onboard LPI radar and IR sense to see the interceptor missile coming in.

It's hard maneuver or change direction at such high speed but its evasive action can be accelerate or decclerate which can be accomplished.

SeaRAM is simple rocket type , once launched it will maintain constant speed until it hits predicted interception point.

Antiship missiles regularly take evasive maneuvers and speed up already when they approach their target. However, I have no idea if this is done in response to incoming defensive missiles or CIWS, or, rather, if this is stuff that is already pre-programmed prior to launch and the missile just goes through a routine before striking.

[lilzz]

Antiship missiles regularly take evasive maneuvers and speed up already when they approach their target. However, I have no idea if this is done in response to incoming defensive missiles or CIWS, or, rather, if this is stuff that is already pre-programmed prior to launch and the missile just goes through a routine before striking.

Older type of missiles that follow a eratic path I think is preprogrammed and I don't think they can aware of interceptor like I talk about. It Just make it hard for you to predict and find a firing solution. CIWS still need to predict and fire bullets infront of missile path hopefully it will hit.

This post has been edited by lilzz: Jun 7 2008, 10:23 PM

[Red Fox Ace]

Older type of missiles that follow a eratic path I think is preprogrammed and I don't think they can aware of interceptor like I talk about. It Just make it hard for you to predict and find a firing solution. CIWS still need to predict and fire bullets infront of missile path hopefully it will hit.

Your missile would require its own EWR receiver. Although I am very curious indeed as to whether or not such technology already exists on missiles.



Still, though, the question remains; how does your missile dodge a rapidly-expanding (300 meters?) circle of debris and blast wave from a proximity SM-2 warhead?

[lilzz]

Your missile would require its own EWR receiver. Although I am very curious indeed as to whether or not such technology already exists on missiles.



Still, though, the question remains; how does your missile dodge a rapidly-expanding (300 meters?) circle of debris and blast wave from a proximity SM-2 warhead?

SM-2? this is different than SeaRAM. Are you sure the proximity fuse is at 300 meters, I never heard it's that far distance. It doesn't sound like a missile interceptor, more than a cave bunker buster.

anyway, the target missile onboard LPI radar and sensors should capable of detecting incoming missile at 40km or so.

[WarEngineer]

it'll always be easier to kill something that to protect it

[Red Fox Ace]

SM-2? this is different than SeaRAM.

Yes, they are two different things. SM-2 handles the intercepting job when the enemy missile is 8-90 kilometers away. Within 8 kilometers, it's SeaRAM's job. Surely an incoming antiship missile must first run the SM-2 gauntlet, unless you are assuming that the Chinese warship and the U.S. aircraft carrier are only 8 kilometers away from each other, an impossibly close scenario?

Are you sure the proximity fuse is at 300 meters, I never heard it's that far distance.

I did not say proximity fuse 300 meters, I said that the explosion blast of the SM-2 could rapidly create an expanding circle of powerful blast force and debris that could expand to 300 meters and engulf an incoming antiship missile and damage or destroy it.

anyway, the target missile onboard LPI radar and sensors should capable of detecting incoming missile at 40km or so.

It probably could, but again, how does it duck an SM-2 blast wave?

[lilzz]

It probably could, but again, how does it duck an SM-2 blast wave?

Are you the SM-2 explode in mid -air hoping the debris would hit something.

If that's the case, the target missile would accelerate suddenly from Mach 3 to Mach4 when it detect the SM-2 is about 400 meter away from it. The acceleration would zoom past the interception point which you calculated base from the target's previous speed.
It's too late for you to readjust, at mach3, it's about 1km/s to 1.5km/s