UMNO: We don't need Chinese and Indians Options

[chutzpah]

Yes, but what's ludicrous is to use the existence of Chinese school in Jakarta to justify your

"The same can be said that Chinese are not discriminated anywhere in SEA to the extend they are in Bolehland"

statement. (You may blame me for being presumptuous, as I assume that the first sentence of your paragraph is the topic statement, followed by your Chinese school thesis supporting the statement)

I am not sure how you measured the level of discrimination for you to make such bold claim, but a chinese born in indonesia before 1998 would either have
a) moved back to China/Hong Kong/Taiwan due to the discriminatory legislation
b) lost their chinese identity (writing and read Chinese characters, practising chinese culture and tradition, have chinese name) through force assimilation

things are getting better nowadays in Indonesia with most anti-chinese law being revoked, but to revoke it after damage has been done, it is really not an apple-to apple comparison now, is it?

To the extent they are in Bolehland, right.

Dzach, we both agree that racism towards Chinese is also bad in Indonesia. Things are indeed getting better in theory as in legislations etc but it is quite different in practice. Chinese are the still the milk-cow for the Indon officials but not to the extend in the past.

Indonesia shows many signs of improvements in race relation in this sense it is probably ahead of Bolehland,
but sad to say it is getting worst when it comes to religious tolerance. Even though there has been damage done there is attempt to make it right. How far will they be successful only time will tell, where as in Bolehland I see little of that and things are getting worst by the day.

The Islamization of Malaysia is fast and it is becoming a problem for non Malays. The new mandatory pass for history starting in 2013 is a case in point. And the hatred towards Chinese is such that the Chinese Muslim community still doesn't have a Chinese mosque yet even after repeated requests. At least there is Chinese mosque in Jakarta.

[Crystallised Dre...]

Hi chutzpah, actually we do have a Chinese mosque built in Kelantan in 2008.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/azmibogart/2918219593/

As of 2009:

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/21566524


edit:
There's a second up-coming Chinese mosque in Perak which will be constructed this year. And in my city Kuching we also have the Islamic Information Centre which consists of several blocks of buildings reflecting the multicultural aspect of the state.






This post has been edited by Crystallised Dream: Jan 24 2011, 03:53 AM

[chutzpah]

Hi chutzpah, actually we do have a Chinese mosque built in Kelantan in 2008.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/azmibogart/2918219593/

As of 2009:

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/21566524


edit:
There's a second up-coming Chinese mosque in Perak which will be constructed this year. And in my city Kuching we also have the Islamic Information Centre which consists of several blocks of buildings reflecting the multicultural aspect of the state.

Thanks CD, I meant in KL, I know the Chinese Muslim in KL has been after their own mosque for sometimes.

[Crystallised Dre...]

^ Ah, okay. From what I know, DBKL has already approved plans to build a Chinese mosque although it hasn't been realised yet. I do agree that there was reluctance on the govt's part to build Chinese mosques for quite some time (as of 2007) but ever since Kelantan started, the ball has been rolling and I don't think there is as much opposition now. Maybe even near to none. It would be interesting to note that the ones encouraging Chinese mosques to be built were also Malays themselves, including Raja Nazrin himself and the Mufti of Perlis.

Malay news about the approval of Chinese mosque in KL:
http://www.topix.com/forum/world/brunei/TBA4N9AGKUCPLL4BU

"Response to Chinese mosque encouraging":
http://findarticles.com/p/news-articles/ne...g/ai_n44349326/

[swingdoctor]

Dzach, we both agree that racism towards Chinese is also bad in Indonesia. Things are indeed getting better in theory as in legislations etc but it is quite different in practice. Chinese are the still the milk-cow for the Indon officials but not to the extend in the past.

Indonesia shows many signs of improvements in race relation in this sense it is probably ahead of Bolehland,
but sad to say it is getting worst when it comes to religious tolerance. Even though there has been damage done there is attempt to make it right. How far will they be successful only time will tell, where as in Bolehland I see little of that and things are getting worst by the day.

The Islamization of Malaysia is fast and it is becoming a problem for non Malays. The new mandatory pass for history starting in 2013 is a case in point. And the hatred towards Chinese is such that the Chinese Muslim community still doesn't have a Chinese mosque yet even after repeated requests. At least there is Chinese mosque in Jakarta.

You're right that from the point of view that things in Indonesia are improving, while things in Malaysia are getting worse. To me this is very sad because, Malaysia is such a beautiful country with very nice people. In my opinion, unless things change politically, Malaysia is like a chouldron, just waiting to explode. The people most likely to explode are the Indians, the poorest of all the major races, who effectively have nothing to lose. I still hold out hope though that the political climate in Malaysia will change.

[chutzpah]

^ Ah, okay. From what I know, DBKL has already approved plans to build a Chinese mosque although it hasn't been realised yet. I do agree that there was reluctance on the govt's part to build Chinese mosques for quite some time (as of 2007) but ever since Kelantan started, the ball has been rolling and I don't think there is as much opposition now. Maybe even near to none. It would be interesting to note that the ones encouraging Chinese mosques to be built were also Malays themselves, including Raja Nazrin himself and the Mufti of Perlis.

Thanks yet again CD.

Chinese Muslims introduced Islam to the Malay peninsula earlier than the Arab traders. Islam entered China via the silk route during the Tang dynasty.

Crystal Mosque

The Crystal Mosque or Masjid Kristal is a mosque in Kuala Terengganu, Terengganu, Malaysia. The mosque is located at Islamic Heritage Park on the island of Wan Man. The mosque was constructed between 2006 and 2008. It was officially opened on 8 February 2008 by 13th Yang di-Pertuan Agong, Sultan Mizan Zainal Abidin of Terengganu.

However, in a newspaper report of Bernama, on October 26th 2008, the Minister in the Prime Minister's Department Datuk Seri Dr Ahmad Zahid Hamidi commented on this building having Chinese characteristics and called on the people to not be cynical about these types of mosques and focus more on the teachings of Islam. He said this because of concern on the Malay people not wanting to share mosque characteristics with the Muslim-Chinese people.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_Mosque

[Crystallised Dre...]

Yup! Read about the Crystal Mosque and that's the exact quote which stood out to me as well. If we can have Indian mosques, Pakistani mosques, Arab mosques, we can have Chinese mosques as well. I read somewhere that there are also suggestions to build a Burmese mosque.

You're right that from the point of view that things in Indonesia are improving, while things in Malaysia are getting worse. To me this is very sad because, Malaysia is such a beautiful country with very nice people. In my opinion, unless things change politically, Malaysia is like a chouldron, just waiting to explode. The people most likely to explode are the Indians, the poorest of all the major races, who effectively have nothing to lose. I still hold out hope though that the political climate in Malaysia will change.

Exactly swingdoc. It's the political climate. The government has been the mastermind behind many major issues plaguing Malaysia today. In fact, I think the reason the government plays the religion and race cards is because it wants to remain in power. It's more about remaining in power than to actually defend/uphold Islam and the Malay identity per se.

Like I've said before, and which many have suspected, UMNO is trying to establish itself as a guardian for the Malay people. It's a very cunning way to garner the support of the Malay majority. I also find it very interesting that you have UMNO on one side and PAS (a Muslim and largely Malay party) on the other. Why are two stalwarts for Islam in the country head-to-head against each other? What exactly do they disagree on? Not to mention the way I see it, PAS has in the recent two or so years has appeared more reasonable than UMNO/BN. In fact, it has even garnered a number of Chinese supporters as well.

So it's not because the people hate each other per se. It has very largely been the work and manipulation of the government. That is why UNLESS the people speak up, change wouldn't come. A couple of ministers with a more reasonable mindset wouldn't do alone if the people still vote for the shady ones in the government. You'd need to have the voice of the people, and this was what was on the mind of the late Corazon Aquino when she trumpeted People Power in the Philippines.

Which is why in order for the political climate to change, the Malaysians have to stand up and speak through reliable channels. Also the reason why I am more interested in the views of the people than the opinions of politicians at the moment. The people are the primary trigger of change because they hold the voting power, and their views are vital indicators of whether this change will come about or not.


----------


About Malaysia and Indonesia, eventhough Gus Dur did the right move of abolishing the anti-Chinese laws, we are no longer sure if the Indonesian Chinese would still be as accepted if they were not as assimilated with the native Indonesian identity as they are now. I am not questioning the genuine compassion of pribumi Indonesians and indeed they may very well be on the road to recovery, but surely the situation is currently quite different from Malaysia's.

1) In Malaysia the bloody clash between Malays and Chinese happened in 1969, whereas in Indonesia it happened in 1998, which is still fairly recent. I would say for Malaysia the 1969 clash was not as bad in a sense because you'd expect people in 1998 to be more progressive than they were in 1969. In fact I would say the 90s and the early 2000s was quite a rosy time for Malaysia, before things exploded in 2007-now.

2) There has hardly been a drive to force the Chinese or Indian community in Malaysia to assimilate into the Malay identity. The Chinese and Indians have always retained their very distinct identities - keeping their names, practising their own cultures.

3) The Chinese and Indians do not face national chastising for not being fluent in Malay, the national language (although the Indians are better at speaking Malay than the Chinese). Non-Malays are not forced to be fluent in Malay at all. There may be some little teasings here and then but it has never been a big issue. Whereas in Indochina, Philippines, Indonesia (and Brunei?) it is almost unthinkable for a citizen to not be fluent in the national language. Malaysia allows Chinese and Tamil vernacular schools (if I'm not mistaken Malaysia is the only other country besides India to have Tamil schools?). If anything that should pose the biggest threat to Malay's stand as the national language.

Indonesia on the other hand does not have Chinese schools, at least from what I read in Wikipedia because "the government only allows Bahasa Indonesia as the medium language of education and government affairs". It is only available as an optional extracurricular subject.


Now these are not justifications for the mistreatment of non-Malays in Malaysia. But what I'm trying to point out here is that Malaysia's situation is unique because we are not vying for assimilation. Malaysia has always wanted to exist as a country with distinct cultures co-existing together in harmony. But this ambition comes with a cost. It is quite a tall order - a society that can actually exist with distinct cultural identities with few problems is truly a successful society. It would be unrealistic to assume that Malaysia can attain this ideal very easily. Problems are to be expected. Albeit not in the scale that we are experiencing now.

So like swingdoc, I too am holding out that Malaysia would be able to achieve this in the future. I don't think it really matters how long it takes to achieve that, as long as we achieve it. If we achieve it in a short time, very good! If it takes longer, then the future generation will have more lessons to gain from all those years. It'll probably even be harder to lose that harmony then, for things you strive the longest for are usually the ones that are hardest to let go.

I think in the midst of all this chaos, one thing we all have to learn is patience. Patience, perseverance and persistence. That I humbly think, make up the recipe for success. Just because nothing seems to be happening now doesn't mean that nothing is happening. If it takes 1000 hits with a hammer to break a rock, it is not because the 1000th hit was the strongest or the most effective. It broke because there were 999 hits before that.

This post has been edited by Crystallised Dream: Jan 25 2011, 03:48 AM

[chutzpah]

Yes quite right, UMNO always play the race/religion cards starting with Mahathir, so does PAS to a lesser extent. The PAS female leader will not shake hands with men due to her religious conviction. One is left to wonder what kind of a leader she would make?

FYI Gus Dur is Abdurahman Wahid, he was called Gus Dur for short, an affectionate term. He was much loved by all Indons of all backgrounds, he was intelligent, fair, preached tolerance, acceptence and inclusivity. However just like Bolehland, the Indons still hate the Chinese, a quick read on the Indon Chinese thread in the INDchat will give some idea of this. The Chinese though has assimilated well due to pressure and the need to survive. They are also gradually becoming more vocal which I guess is a good thing. As in Bolehland, the continued islamization in Indonesia is causing casualties for the non Muslims, it started during the last years of Suharto in Eastern Indon funded by $$ from Saudis.

I admire you for your optimism for Bolehland, perhaps one day you will get your wish when the Malays learn the meaning of tolerance.

[Crystallised Dre...]

Yes quite right, UMNO always play the race/religion cards starting with Mahathir, so does PAS to a lesser extent. The PAS female leader will not shake hands with men due to her religious conviction. One is left to wonder what kind of a leader she would make?

FYI Gus Dur is Abdurahman Wahid, he was called Gus Dur for short, an affectionate term. He was much loved by all Indons of all backgrounds, he was intelligent, fair, preached tolerance, acceptence and inclusivity. However just like Bolehland, the Indons still hate the Chinese, a quick read on the Indon Chinese thread in the INDchat will give some idea of this. The Chinese though has assimilated well due to pressure and the need to survive. They are also gradually becoming more vocal which I guess is a good thing. As in Bolehland, the continued islamization in Indonesia is causing casualties for the non Muslims, it started during the last years of Suharto in Eastern Indon funded by $$ from Saudis.

I admire you for your optimism for Bolehland, perhaps one day you will get your wish when the Malays learn the meaning of tolerance.

Haha okay, I keep thinking Gus Dur and Abdurrahman Wahid are two different persons. I'll edit my post.

Well if Martin Luther King, Rosa Park and Maya Angelou could be optimistic for the U.S., I could do the same for Malaysia. People often equate the situation in Malaysia like that of the apartheid in the U.S. or South Africa, but obviously the apartheid was much worse. In the U.S. race is still an issue, but it has definitely gone a long way from the 60's and before. I hold on to that.

[chutzpah]

Haha okay, I keep thinking Gus Dur and Abdurrahman Wahid are two different persons. I'll edit my post.

Well if Martin Luther King, Rosa Park and Maya Angelou could be optimistic for the U.S., I could do the same for Malaysia. People often equate the situation in Malaysia like that of the apartheid in the U.S. or South Africa, but obviously the apartheid was much worse. In the U.S. race is still an issue, but it has definitely gone a long way from the 60's and before. I hold on to that.

Hi CD, I made plenty of boo boos as well as in the case of the Chinese mosques so I wouldn't worry about it.

BTW it is rather difficult to equate the situation in Bolehland with that of the US in 60's, S. Africa and I don't know who R. park and M Angelou are. The situations in those countries were RACE related, but in Bolehland it is also RELIGION, together it makes a powerful impact. Furthermore, the future of any country is the children, educated children which one day will become leaders, and Bolehland is no different. The minister of eduction's new history book contains many errors coupled with selective amnesia, half of the historical facts were left out, while furthering the Ketuanan Melayu-Islam interests, what would be the future leaders be like? How can various races and religions be reconciled under such situation when the implementation is done at such an impressionable age? Would Bolehland truly achieve unity and embrace diversity? The future for non Malays in Bolehland is bleak indeed.

This post has been edited by chutzpah: Jan 25 2011, 04:51 AM

[chutzpah]

Dzach for your information:

http://www.nkkhoo.com/2011/01/24/dear-old-...nacular-school/

"There is another country allows vernacular schools, Sri Lanka allows Tamil language used as the main medium in the government fully funded Tamil primary schools. They are fully funded unlike Malaysia with semi-funded Chinese and Tamil primary schools.

I was there for a year, I saw their schools with my eyes."

As far as I know there is private Chinese School in Jakarta. I think one of the reason Chinese schools get government funding is due to high number of Malay students studying there.

This post has been edited by chutzpah: Jan 25 2011, 04:26 AM