Our Group are the True HMONGS! DNA Data inside. Options

[xaithoj]

so i've been wanting to see a dna study done where the major groups of hmong/miao were all separated and tested for dna. holy cow i found one! there's some very interesting data. the dna is broken down by groups and province but the ones that will interest us the most are: yunnan, guizhou, hunan and hmong daw groups. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%...al.pone.0024282

the y-dna (paternal) results, broken down by known population associations that are of interest:

Hmong Daw (our group)
33.33% - O3a3b (M7) the 'hmong' marker gene.
25.49% - C (M130) ***see footnote***.
7.84% - O3a3c1 (M117) a new grouping broken down from O3a3c (M134) which is the 'han' chinese marker gene.
7.84% - D1 (M15) found mostly in tibeto-burman peoples.
5.88% - O2a (M95) austro-asiatics.
5.88% - O2a1 (M88) dai, mon-khmer, viet peoples.

Hmong Yunnan (western dialect group, most intelligible to hmong daw)
30.61% - O2a (M95) austro-asiatics.
18.37% - O3 (M122) east asian lineage gene, very widespread.**
12.24% - O3a3b (M7) the 'hmong' marker gene.
6.12% - D1 (M15) found mostly in tibeto-burman peoples.
6.12% - O3a3c1 (M117) pretty much 'han' chinese.
6.12% - O1a (M119) found in austronesian and kradai peoples.
6.12% - C (M130) ***see footnote***.

Hmong Guizhou (central dialect, the largest group: Ayuodou, Yang Geli's people)
24.49% - O3 (M122) east asian lineage gene, very widespread.**
16.33% - O2a (M95) austro-asiatics.
12.24% - O1a (M119) found in austronesian and kradai peoples.
8.16% - C (M130) ***see footnote***.
4.08% - O3a3b (M7) the 'hmong' marker gene.
2.04% - O3a3c1 (M117) pretty much 'han' chinese.

Hmong Hunan (eastern dialect, Song Zuying's people)
24% - O3 (M122) east asian lineage gene, very widespread.**
14% - C (M130) ***see footnote***.
9% - O2a (M95) austro-asiatics.
9% - O3a3c1 (M117) pretty much 'han' chinese.
7% - O3a3c (M134) 'han' chinese.
7% - O1a (M119) found in austronesian and kradai peoples.
5% - O2a1 (M88) dai, mon-khmer, viet peoples.
4% - O3a3b (M7) the 'hmong' marker gene.

**keep in mind that there are other haplogroups which associate with the hmong marker O3a3b (M7) that they probably grouped generically as O3 (M122). in this study, they were focused specifically on O3a3b (M7) and O2a (M95).

***i wish they would of broke the C group down because C1, C2, and C3 are found in very different places. C1 is rare and found in Japan, C2 is found in the southern archipelago in Indonesia, Melanesia, Micronesia and Polynesia, C3 is found in the far north with the Mongols and other northern nomads.

i think until someone does a dna study of hmong/miao by each individual group's clothing style, we won't ever see an accurate picture as there are just too many groups in each geographic location like yunnan, guizhou and hunan. also, genetics just determines what you will look like; culture determines who you are. there's no question that all these groups share the same culture.

[xaithoj]

with the data in this study (which by no means gives a complete picture), there are some things to think about:

1. the most intelligible dialects to us are those from yunnan who have the 2nd largest percentage of direct 'hmong' O3a3b (M7) ancestry. this supports the theory that maybe our 'hmong' dialect is the original one. as the study shows, the other groups have the majority of their ancestry from other than O3a3b (M7). one can hypothosize that as these other groups were absorbed into our culture, their native tongue had an impact on the language.

2. the reason our group migrated so far is that we had no connection to the lands that are now named yunnan, guizhou, and hunan. our hmong daw group shows little ancestry from the people native to those lands so my hypothosis is that we had no problem leaving where-as the other groups who show stronger ancestry from those lands could identify it as their 'homeland' and were reluctant to leave. this also supports the evidence that o3a3b (M7) ancestral lands have always been central china yangtze river north to the yellow river (daxi culture).

3. other than hmong hunan, hmong daw shows the 2nd largest percentage of proven northern ancestry. when you consider that hmong hunan's northern ancestry is primarily from the 'han' chinese who are much more integrated with the hmong in hunan, you can easily explain their contribution from just proximity. however, that logic fails with hmong daw who are the farthest removed from 'han' chinese, but still have higher 'han' genes than hmong yunnan or guizhou. hmong daw must have been elsewhere other than yunnan and guizhou to receive the 'han' ancestry.

4. i think that if the study breaks out y-dna C (M130), there would definately be some C3 in there. in a 2010 study that broke out C, hmong/miao were positive for C3 but the study didn't break the hmong/miao down into regions. hmong daw has such a high percentage of C (M130) at 25.49% that it needs to be explored more. if our C (M130) ancestry could be proven to be C3 (M217), it would prove some of the claims of mongolian ancestry as C3 (M217) is typical of indigenous Siberians, Kazakhs and Mongolians.

[souphounavong]

with the data in this study (which by no means gives a complete picture), there are some things to think about:

1. the most intelligible dialects to us are those from yunnan who have the 2nd largest percentage of direct 'hmong' O3a3b (M7) ancestry. this supports the theory that maybe our 'hmong' dialect is the original one. as the study shows, the other groups have the majority of their ancestry from other than O3a3b (M7). one can hypothosize that as these other groups were absorbed into our culture, their native tongue had an impact on the language.

2. the reason our group migrated so far is that we had no connection to the lands that are now named yunnan, guizhou, and hunan. our hmong daw group shows little ancestry from the people native to those lands so my hypothosis is that we had no problem leaving where-as the other groups who show stronger ancestry from those lands could identify it as their 'homeland' and were reluctant to leave. this also supports the evidence that o3a3b (M7) ancestral lands have always been central china yangtze river north to the yellow river (daxi culture).

3. other than hmong hunan, hmong daw shows the 2nd largest percentage of proven northern ancestry. when you consider that hmong hunan's northern ancestry is primarily from the 'han' chinese who are much more integrated with the hmong in hunan, you can easily explain their contribution from just proximity. however, that logic fails with hmong daw who are the farthest removed from 'han' chinese, but still have higher 'han' genes than hmong yunnan or guizhou. hmong daw must have been elsewhere other than yunnan and guizhou to receive the 'han' ancestry.

4. i think that if the study breaks out y-dna C (M130), there would definately be some C3 in there. in a 2010 study that broke out C, hmong/miao were positive for C3 but the study didn't break the hmong/miao down into regions. hmong daw has such a high percentage of C (M130) at 25.49% that it needs to be explored more. if our C (M130) ancestry could be proven to be C3 (M217), it would prove some of the claims of mongolian ancestry as C3 (M217) is typical of indigenous Siberians, Kazakhs and Mongolians.

What exactly is "hmong daw?" Hmong that speaks the white dialect?

This post has been edited by souphounavong: Sep 16 2011, 09:13 PM

[xaithoj]

What exactly is "hmong daw?" Hmong that speaks the white dialect?

yea hmong daw/der is the english way to spell hmoob dawb or white hmong. hmoob dawb is the dialect associated with the hmong americans who identify immediately with the hmong lao, thailand and half of vietnam. hmoob dawb in china are mainly dispersed throughout yunnan and sichuan with pockets in guizhou and guangxi.

[souphounavong]

yea hmong daw/der is the english way to spell hmoob dawb or white hmong. hmoob dawb is the dialect associated with the hmong americans who identify immediately with the hmong lao, thailand and half of vietnam. hmoob dawb in china are mainly dispersed throughout yunnan and sichuan with pockets in guizhou and guangxi.

Okay so let me clarify. When you mention of Hmong daw, you include all groups that identify themselves as "Hmong", correct? Are you excluding Hmong Leng/green? Or are you using the name "Hmong" as an umbrella term for all Hmong in all of Asia?

I question your theory in accordance to your Y-Haplogroup analysis because if the Hmong that currently live outside of China are those that migrated away from their original homeland, it would be more plausible for a drastic genetic change due to migration in both their Y-dna and Mtdna.

Stories of Hmong migration from China to Southeast Asia often involve the adoption and intermarriages of non-Hmong. Thus affecting the immediate gene pool of those Hmong that migrated southward. With that said, it is only logical that Hmong in

Southeast Asia share less "original" Y-Haplogroup than those relatives and brothers from China. This is supported by the article by Bo Wen et al, in their study (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/3/725.full) where the Hmong Mtdna differs

drastically from region to region. This is because as Hmong migrated southwestward, Hmong absorbed populations from many different groups and ultimately in the end, the genetic make up of those are significantly different from their kins.

Can you also argue that those Hmong that did not migrate also experienced the same changes in their genetic make up from adoption and intermarriages as well? One would expect more adoptions and intermarriages from migration though.






The article was interesting. The haplogroup O3a3b (M7) is not strictly the "hmong gene marker" as you have indicated. It is high in both Hmong-Mien as well as Mon-Khmer. The article basically argued a northward expansion of modern East Asians in accordance to T chromosomes.

This post has been edited by souphounavong: Sep 16 2011, 11:50 PM

[xaithoj]

hmong daw and hmong leng are synonymous with each other culturally. so when people use hmong daw as an identity (because the majority of hmong americans are hmong daw); like in this study, hmong leng are included. when people talk about dialects, they separate hmong daw and hmong leng, but the two are 99% intelligible.

everything you said is correct except for y-dna. y-dna is passed from father to son faithfully and unbroken (only males have y-dna). mt-dna is from your mother. your y-dna will never change, not through exposure to alien cultures, adoption or intermarriages.

if an o3a3b hmong y-dna man marries a chinese woman, their son will still carry the o3a3b y-dna. when that son who is half hmong/chinese marries an american woman, their son will still carry o3a3b y-dna. and that son who is hmong/chinese/american marries a black woman, that boy will still carry o3a3b y-dna. by this time that boy will look all funky with so many diverse dna, but his paternal lineage y-dna will test positive for o3a3b hmong. however, his maternal mt-dna will show a black lineage, but if you trace that, you won't link him with his father who's mt-dna will be american. his grandfather's mt-dna will be chinese and his great-grandfather's mt-dna will be hmong. so can you see how wacky mt-dna can get? where-as y-dna is always consistent from father to son to grandsons to great-grandsons.

i don't think you understand what it means when they identify a haplogroup as belonging to one ethnic. they 'mark' a haplogroup as such because the majority of people who identify with that culture will test with that haplogroup as the highest percentage gene. however, 'highest percentage' gene does not mean 100%. in fact, its usually only 25%-50%. but in relation to other ancestries that have joined that culture, it's usually the dominant one. and its not me putting that label on, its the accepted label in the dna field.

in regards to mon-khmer, i didn't see any of those peoples broken down like they did the hmong-mien. they broke the hmong-mien group down so that they could see how many y-dna lineages would test positive for o2a (M95) and o2a1 (M88) which are the austro-asiatic/mon-khmer 'markers'. as you can see, the majority of hmong/miao ancestry are from o3 (M122) which is considered 'east asians'. sure, we have some o2a and o2a1 lineages, but they are minor lineages for the most part with only a few exceptions in the hmong-miao groups. in the groups that we have highlighted, only the hmong-yunnan show that they have a dominant o2a ancestry. it doesn't change that o3a3b (M7) is a hmong marker because if you test mon-khmer people and broke down their y-dna, o2a and o2a1 will be 25%-50% dominant with o3a3b (M7) less than 10% and probably less than 5%.

This post has been edited by xaithoj: Sep 17 2011, 01:43 AM

[souphounavong]

hmong daw and hmong leng are synonymous with each other culturally. so when people use hmong daw as an identity (because the majority of hmong americans are hmong daw); like in this study, hmong leng are included. when people talk about dialects, they separate hmong daw and hmong leng, but the two are 99% intelligible.

everything you said is correct except for y-dna. y-dna is passed from father to son faithfully and unbroken (only males have y-dna). mt-dna is from your mother. your y-dna will never change, not through exposure to alien cultures, adoption or intermarriages.

if an o3a3b hmong y-dna man marries a chinese woman, their son will still carry the o3a3b y-dna. when that son who is half hmong/chinese marries an american woman, their son will still carry o3a3b y-dna. and that son who is hmong/chinese/american marries a black woman, that boy will still carry o3a3b y-dna. by this time that boy will look all funky with so many diverse dna, but his paternal lineage y-dna will test positive for o3a3b hmong. however, his maternal mt-dna will show a black lineage, but if you trace that, you won't link him with his father who's mt-dna will be american. his grandfather's mt-dna will be chinese and his great-grandfather's mt-dna will be hmong. so can you see how wacky mt-dna can get? where-as y-dna is always consistent from father to son to grandsons to great-grandsons.

i don't think you understand what it means when they identify a haplogroup as belonging to one ethnic. they 'mark' a haplogroup as such because the majority of people who identify with that culture will test with that haplogroup as the highest percentage gene. however, 'highest percentage' gene does not mean 100%. in fact, its usually only 25%-50%. but in relation to other ancestries that have joined that culture, it's usually the dominant one. and its not me putting that label on, its the accepted label in the dna field.

in regards to mon-khmer, i didn't see any of those peoples broken down like they did the hmong-mien. they broke the hmong-mien group down so that they could see how many y-dna lineages would test positive for o2a (M95) and o2a1 (M88) which are the austro-asiatic/mon-khmer 'markers'. as you can see, the majority of hmong/miao ancestry are from o3 (M122) which is considered 'east asians'. sure, we have some o2b and o2b1 lineages, but they are minor lineages for the most part with only a few exceptions in the hmong-miao groups. in the groups that we have highlighted, only the hmong-yunnan show that they have a dominant o2a ancestry. it doesn't change that o3a3b (M7) is a hmong marker because if you test mon-khmer people and broken down their y-dna, o2a and o2a1 will be 25%-50% dominant with o3a3b (M7) less than 10% and probably less than 5%.

Yes i agree with you. I read the entire article and realized that the main idea is on human migration hence the article name. What i disagreed with you about is that just because O3 M7 doesn't show in Mon-Khmer as much as Hmong-Mien, it does not suggest that the Y chromosome are exclusive for another group. In fact, in the article the findings suggested that O3M7 originated in southeast Asia among the Austro-Asiatic/Mon-Khmer people and then gradually influenced Hmong-Mien and then Sino-Tibetans.

The greater diversity in southeast Asia only imply origins of these haplogroups. If Mon-Khmer was more diverse, suggesting that O1,O2, and O3 were present in their populations, it only makes sense to surmise that they were closer to the origins of these haplogroup markers. Just because O3M7 is more prevalent in Hmong-Mien doesn't suggest that it was the original carriers because the more homogenous, the less percentage; the less homogenous, the more percentage due to concentration. Hmong-Mein groups are more homogenous, suggesting that their O3M7 must be high due to their homogeneity. Mon-Khmer on the other hand, are more diverse therefore, it is expected that their O3M7 markers are lower.

This post has been edited by souphounavong: Sep 17 2011, 01:42 AM

[xaithoj]

i never said O3 (M7) was exclusive. the term i used is the term that is used in the dna field: 'marker'. just because it is labeled as a 'marker' does not make it exclusive to that culture. that's why i said you guys are probably mis-understanding what it means when dna scientists identify a certain haplogroup to a certain culture; in this case O3a3b (M7) to hmong-mien. i'll repeat it again, its not me who is putting this label on this haplogroup, its the tested and accepted label for all dna researchers.

its pretty much commonly accepted that O3 started migration in the south. there is no surprises in this study in regards to migration or haplogroup identities. the only real surprise is the different ancestries for the groups of people who we identify most closely as hmong/miao: those in yunnan, guizhou, hunan and us (hmong daw). the surprise to me is how little O3a3b the hmong marker gene (as labeled by the dna community) was found in the other groups outside of hmong daw. however, its not genes that make you who you are as i've stated; its culture. all the groups share the same culture, just not the same ancestry.

all the peoples of asia are fairly mixed so as a whole, they're gonna have ancestry from other groups. yes, O3a3b is found in mon/khmer. its also found in han chinese, thais, viets etc. but why did the dna scientists label it as the hmong 'marker'? because although its found in those other groups, its only found in small percentages, less than 10%-1%, so the culture that is associated with that ancestry is probably not going to be the dominant culture.

we see that with hmong daw, our dominant gene is O3a3b at 33.33%. hmong daw are not exclusively O3a3b ancestry. its not even close to 50% let alone 100%. 25.49% of hmong daw have C (M130) ancestry (im gonna go out on a limb and even say its probably C3). however, our culture is hmong, so we identify ourselves as hmong. even tho mon-khmer may have O3a3b genes, and so hmong acestry, their dominant gene is gonna be O2a or O2a1 austro-asiatic/mon-khmer. that dominant gene is also probably gonna determine their culture and chances are, that culture is not gonna be hmong culture because O3a3b ancestry makes up such a small portion of their identity.

[cocopuffchild]

Ah, very interesting. Then it makes sense since Hmong Daw are actually known by the Hmong in China as Hmoob Laug (Ancient Hmong).

Most Hmong in China know overseas Hmong as Hmong Daw.

This post has been edited by cocopuffchild: Sep 17 2011, 11:19 PM

[cocopuffchild]

here is an interesting blog

长江中游 - Yangtze River
三苗文化 - San Miao Culture

湖北龙山文化 - Hubei Longshan Culture - consisted of Hmong-Mien and Han
M7+M117

屈家岭文化 - Qujialing - San Miao
(三苗集团)
三苗M7

大溪、凌家滩 - Daxi and Lingjiatan
(伏羲-女娲) - Fuxi and Nuwa
三苗M7- the people of Daxi were M7 (san miao)

皂市下层文化(盘古氏) - Zaoshi Culture (Pangu)
三苗M7 - the people were M7 (san miao)

青莲岗-北辛文化 - Qingliangang - North Xin Culture
先东夷(O3*+M7+M119) - First eastern tribes - consisted of O3, Hmong-Mien and Northern Yue


先东夷可能为祖型O3*,三苗M7及北越M119的混杂体.东夷是最早被汉化的族群
(Dong Yi ancestral type may be O3, Hmong-Mien, and Northern Yue) ????


http://blog.163.com/photor@126/blog/static...lAdminPriv=true

[hmoobconan]

Sounds like origin manipulation to me...

If the Hmong "Daw" group you are talking about includes Hmong Leng, and other dialects, then it is erroneous to label all the Hmong not in China as Hmong "Daw" and claim that the "White" dialect is the original one.

[souphounavong]

Sounds like origin manipulation to me...

If the Hmong "Daw" group you are talking about includes Hmong Leng, and other dialects, then it is erroneous to label all the Hmong not in China as Hmong "Daw" and claim that the "White" dialect is the original one.

I'm assuming he's referring to only Hmong. Hmong is among 1 of the 4 groups classified under the Miao umbrella term.

If so, i suppose he's trying to say that Hmong are more original group than the rest of the Miao groups including Kho Xong, AHma, and Hmu. These latter groups may or may had been more influenced externally by surrounding ethnic groups.

I don't know. I don't like the idea that the single group of Miao (Hmong) somehow was able to retain most of their originality despite it that they experienced the most migration.

[xaithoj]

how is it origin manipulation? was or was not the daxi culture in china proven to be peoples who carried y-dna O3 (M7)? was or was not the hmong daw people in the study i linked proven to carry the y-dna O3 (M7) gene as their dominant ancestry? so when the answer is so clearly "yes" to both those questions, how can you even bring up origin manipulation?

when talking about language, you guys need to broaden your vision and deepen your understanding of linguistics. if i wanted to study the mandarin language and find its original form, where would i start? the most logical and scientific answer is: with the group of people whose culture developed it, the chinese. so if i wanted to trace the development of that language, i would also have to trace the ancestry of those peoples as their culture developed over time. for the chinese, this is not an issue because they have written documentation of their culture, language and history stretching back to the beginning of civilization. hmong people have NONE of that.

where would you even begin to start the study of the development of the hmong language? with so many dialects, how can you possibly present any linguistic data found as conclusive? that's why this data i collected is so crucial. it connects the hmong daw group directly to the daxi culture and hence, the language that was developed there. it's also significant because it shows that the other groups do not have a direct link to daxi culture, hence if we study their language, we cannot scientifically trace it back to the daxi culture. anthropological science says that the descendants of daxi culture will be the ones to carry and develop that language. dna science says that the descendants of daxi culture are the people who carry y-dna O3 (M7). the data i collected proves that hmong daw ancestry is dominated by y-dna O3 (M7). the only scientific conclusion you can come to regarding the hmong language then is that the one used by the hmong daw group is the one with the most scientific link to daxi culture and hence, the one that should be studied to trace the development of the language.

[souphounavong]

how is it origin manipulation? was or was not the daxi culture in china proven to be peoples who carried y-dna O3 (M7)? was or was not the hmong daw people in the study i linked proven to carry the y-dna O3 (M7) gene as their dominant ancestry? so when the answer is so clearly "yes" to both those questions, how can you even bring up origin manipulation?

when talking about language, you guys need to broaden your vision and deepen your understanding of linguistics. if i wanted to study the mandarin language and find its original form, where would i start? the most logical and scientific answer is: with the group of people whose culture developed it, the chinese. so if i wanted to trace the development of that language, i would also have to trace the ancestry of those peoples as their culture developed over time. for the chinese, this is not an issue because they have written documentation of their culture, language and history stretching back to the beginning of civilization. hmong people have NONE of that.

where would you even begin to start the study of the development of the hmong language? with so many dialects, how can you possibly present any linguistic data found as conclusive? that's why this data i collected is so crucial. it connects the hmong daw group directly to the daxi culture and hence, the language that was developed there. it's also significant because it shows that the other groups do not have a direct link to daxi culture, hence if we study their language, we cannot scientifically trace it back to the daxi culture. anthropological science says that the descendants of daxi culture will be the ones to carry and develop that language. dna science says that the descendants of daxi culture are the people who carry y-dna O3 (M7). the data i collected proves that hmong daw ancestry is dominated by y-dna O3 (M7). the only scientific conclusion you can come to regarding the hmong language then is that the one used by the hmong daw group is the one with the most scientific link to daxi culture and hence, the one that should be studied to trace the development of the language.

Daxi culture connection is not exclusive to only Hmong daw, but collectively all Miao-Yao or to be more accurate, Hmong-Mien speakers including the She people. In fact, the Y DNA found at Daxi were a little more than majority O3(m7). Therefore, we could link the possibility of that Miao-Yao language to Daxi but we cannot be absolute.

I still do not understand the correlation between Y DNA and language when it comes specifically to the single group, Hmong. Why? Because DNA and linguistics do NOT always necessary correlate. Just look at those negritos in Thailand. THey speak an Austronesian language but could that be the case because their conquerors were Austronesian speakers? What implications stem from this? Well, just because our dominant Y DNA is O3 (m7) AND we speak a Hmong-Mien, it does not necessary suggest that we were the originals. Why? Because you said it yourself. An ethnic identify is defined on the basis of a collective culture.

The Hmong from SEA are slightly different from those Hmong and other Miao groups from China both in genetics as well as culture. We do ball tossing and baxi of which we got from the Bouyi and Zhuang people. Are you saying that we as Hmong are the originals? Our new year celebrations and weddings were heavily influenced by other groups yet, you conclude that we were the originals. Maybe genetically, but not culturally. All in all, you can't be conclusive here.

Furthermore, i disagree with you on the point that lingiustic studies should start with the Hmong daw group. All Miao/Hmong groups had been influenced by neighboring groups. You cannot just pick a single group and claim that it's the most "pure" just because they were able to retain majority of their Y DNA. DNA and language does not always correlate.

This post has been edited by souphounavong: Sep 18 2011, 06:32 PM

[souphounavong]

oops double post. please delete

This post has been edited by souphounavong: Sep 18 2011, 06:28 PM

[txoomsuab2]

damn that's alot of reading

[cocopuffchild]

thanks xai thoj.
wonderful information.


DNA points a different direction than cultural traditions.

Culture is fluid, while DNA is not. I agree with Xai that linguistic studies of the Hmong
should begin with the Hmong Daw because the Hmong Daw were the first group to flee China and
still preserve much of the archaic Hmong customs and so on.

Hmong Leng is the latest group to enter SEA and often associate with the Hua Miao (A-Hmao), since
Hmong Leng are known as Hua Miao (Hmong Paaj).

I think souphanouvong failed to remember that each study is different from one case to another.

Let say, for example, using one person from a Miao ethnic group that reveal 100% m7, the result would be 100%.
If two individuals of She, one carries 50% and one carries something else, then the result of 2 She would only be 50% M7.

STATISTIC!! remember, it has to do with the N# of people being tested... using T test and all those stuff to determine the percentage and results. I'm not surprised that each research from previous and new indicate different findings.

I think you need to understand that percentage helps explain the selected POPULATION being tested. Help explains the origins of these selected individuals. Each individual is unique and has different DNA, but overall, the selected population broken into four groups, as the studies shown, indicate that each of the four groups contain different degree of DNA (focus on all population of the group instead of one individual) as the results shown.

[souphounavong]

thanks xai thoj.
wonderful information.


DNA points a different direction than cultural traditions.

Culture is fluid, while DNA is not. I agree with Xai that linguistic studies of the Hmong
should begin with the Hmong Daw because the Hmong Daw were the first group to flee China and
still preserve much of the archaic Hmong customs and so on.

Hmong Leng is the latest group to enter SEA and often associate with the Hua Miao (A-Hmao), since
Hmong Leng are known as Hua Miao (Hmong Paaj).

I think souphanouvong failed to remember that each study is different from one case to another.

Let say, for example, using one person from a Miao ethnic group that reveal 100% m7, the result would be 100%.
If two individuals of She, one carries 50% and one carries something else, then the result of 2 She would only be 50% M7.

STATISTIC!! remember, it has to do with the N# of people being tested... using T test and all those stuff to determine the percentage and results. I'm not surprised that each research from previous and new indicate different findings.

I think you need to understand that percentage helps explain the selected POPULATION being tested. Help explains the origins of these selected individuals. Each individual is unique and has different DNA, but overall, the selected population broken into four groups, as the studies shown, indicate that each of the four groups contain different degree of DNA (focus on all population of the group instead of one individual) as the results shown.

Just saying. What if group A and group B had common origins however, group B was not able to preserve much of its Y DNA due to warfare and resorted to adoption of other groups. In the end, group B would expect to have a lesser percentage of a certain Y DNA compared to group A.

Now, you guys cannot simply rule out that group A must be closest to the "originals" and conclude that they were able to preserve much of their linguistic/cultural entities. We all know culture is fluid. Both group do not need to maintain a certain genetic makeup to preserve these cultural and linguistic customs.

Group B could only carry 10% of a certain marker and be as "original" as group A just that the only difference is that group A carries 35% of whatever marker specified.


On another note, i do not understand the dialects. Supposedly white Hmong is a more recent dialect. Our elders speak of Hmong leng being the original dialect. If this is true, our dialects are already evolving through migration in just a short matter of time. Just because Hmong were the first to migrate out of China doesn't always necessary suggest that they were able to preserve their original tongue and grammar without external influence.

[cocopuffchild]

I have never heard of Hmong people saying that Hmong leng is the original dialect, except Hmong Leng themselves.

I've heard that various Miao groups from China consider Bai Miao (Hmongb Laug) as an older branch of the Miao people. Well, this is mention in the book written by Thomas S. Vang.
Historically, white Hmong were the first to leave China.

Hmong Leng and Hmong Daw are in fact subdialects only. One is not older than the other, or one is not original over the other.

Yunnan Miao probably refers to the Hua Miao. As many scholars in China divided the Miao Nationality into four major groups (Hmongb, Amao, Hmu and Xongb).


This post has been edited by cocopuffchild: Sep 19 2011, 12:33 AM

[cocopuffchild]

also understand that

marriages between various Hmong groups were prohibited back in the days.

Hmong dawb married Hmong dawb and Hmong lees married Hmong lees, so I'm not surprised and somewhat agree to Xai Thoj.
It was only 30 yrs that marriages between the two groups are somewhat lean now, but there is still a taboo among the Hmong not to marry other Hmong groups.

So, like Xai stated, Hmong Daw are the ones that carry M7. Because of such studies (probably many studies on the various Miao), one who studies the Miao people
would probably use Hmong Daw since the test (as from above) have shown that individuals of Hmong Daw shown a high percentage of M7.
Since the sample of Daxi (shown a percentage of M7), it is righteous to state that Hmong Dawb individuals have a high percentage, which concludes that their ancestors were from Daxi.

To study the Daxi, then it is a good idea to study groups that carry high frequency of M7 (Hmong Dawb), She and other ethnic groups that have high frequency of M7.
Since we're focusing on the Miao people, then it's the Hmong Dawb that show a high frequency of M7 making them direct descendants of the rice cultivating Daxi people.

It can't be said about other Miao groups because they have their own origins (DNA).

Hmong Yunnan probably = Hmong Lees, Ahmao since both groups are known as Hmoob Paaj (Flower Hmong).

A-Hmao often called themselves Maob. Hmong Lees called themselves Hav Moob.

You have to remember that Hmong Lees are a branch of Hmong, but at the same time, they fall between both the Hmongb and A-Hmao.
Some called themselves Hmong, some called themselves Mong (Maob).

This post has been edited by cocopuffchild: Sep 19 2011, 12:43 AM