Senators: US losing sway in Africa as China rises, losing the battle for hearts and minds in Africa Options

[Mid-Night_Sun]

Senators: US losing sway in Africa as China rises

By MATTHEW PENNINGTON, Associated Press – 3 days ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — Senators voiced concern Tuesday that the United States has lost influence with African governments as China has emerged as the continent's main trading partner and a major source of investment for infrastructure development.

Sen. Chris Coons, D-Del., who chairs the Senate Foreign Relations African affairs subcommittee, said the U.S. goal of promoting open societies in Africa was being challenged by China offering no-strings-attached investment for repressive regimes.

Coons said about 70 percent of Chinese assistance to Africa comes in the form of roads, stadiums and government buildings, often built with Chinese material and labor, while 70 percent of U.S. government spending there goes toward crucial but less visible support for people, particularly to fight AIDS, malaria, tuberculosis and other diseases.

"We may be winning the war on disease, while losing the battle for hearts and minds in Africa," Coons told a subcommittee hearing on China's role in Africa and its implications for U.S. policy.

Coons' comments echo a common theme among U.S. policymakers, that China's rise as an economic and political power challenges America's global predominance.

Lawmakers criticized China's state-backed support for governments with poor human rights records.

"China is interested in their own goals and has very little concern about the governance of the countries that they deal with," Sen. Ben Cardin, D-Md.

But experts told the panel that by supplying loans for infrastructure development, often in return for exports of commodities China needs for its own economic growth, the Asian power was responding to what African governments want, and filling a need unmet by Western nations.

David Shinn, adjunct professor at George Washington University and former U.S. ambassador to Ethiopia and Burkina Faso, gave the example of Angola, which had unsuccessfully sought Western investment after its civil war, and instead turned to China, which helped develop infrastructure in return for the promise of oil exports.

Deborah Brautigam, a professor at American University, said Chinese investment was often perceived to have a negative impact on human rights and democracy, principally because of Beijing's support of Zimbabwe and Sudan. But she said there was no evidence that political rights and freedom had declined in general across the continent.

Shinn, however, believed Chinese investment had to some degree undermined Western goals of promoting democracy, good governance and human rights. He said there also was evidence of Chinese companies importing technology to enable certain governments, such as Zimbabwe and Ethiopia, to restrict the flow of information on the Internet.

He said China passed the United States as Africa's most important trade partner in 2009. In 2010, China-Africa trade totaled $127 billion, compared with U.S.-Africa trade of $113 billion. China also possibly is investing more in Africa than any other single country, he said.

Stephen Hayes, president of the Corporate Council on Africa, a group representing U.S. businesses in Africa, told the hearing that U.S. embassies should do more to advance American commercial interests. He also wanted the U.S. aid program to promote U.S. businesses as a partner in African development.

Copyright © 2011 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/articl...686b1a37b2ba469


China helping a country with internet = helping the gov. restrict info


with this logic, US gun laws = active murder?

This post has been edited by Mid-Night_Sun: Nov 5 2011, 01:18 PM

[Boron]

Only the uninformed and ignorant will give their hearts and minds to America, which thinks of them like commodities.

[SinoDefender]

Only the uninformed and ignorant will give their hearts and minds to America, which thinks of them like commodities.

You think China is any different?

Every country does. America is no different than China. China is not in Africa for Charity any more than the Americans are. Nonetheless, both China and America want to win the hearts and minds of people everywhere, that's why they run things like Xinhau international paid directly with government monies, just like Voice of America. China should just be careful in incidents like where the Chinese supervisor killed mine workers, and then got off without charges. That did more damage to China's reputation in Africa than anything America could do.

http://www.lusakatimes.com/2010/12/31/mine...g-chinese-boss/
http://www.ituc-csi.org/zambia-charges-dro...wo.html?lang=en

If I were an African, I wouldn't trust the Chinese, Americans or Russians any more than I absolutely had to.

America makes friends with countries that call themselves Democracies and give free access to the internet, and its looked down upon when America supports countries that restrict information flow. China takes an alternative course and befriends leaders who do not want to follow the western model.

EDIT: Both America and China do have purely Charitable activities in Africa, for example Bill Gates anti Malaria campaign, but that is a separate issue.

This post has been edited by SinoDefender: Nov 5 2011, 02:58 PM

[Boron]

I have no idea what your twisted sentences mean, but I have no doubt where your mind is at. Chinese are very honest. We say to Africans, we are your friends. Why, they ask? Because we will build you roads and develop your resources. We charge a fair salary, not 100 times the salary of your own workers. We are not your white knights coming to save you, put you on public dole to keep you weak. We are good for you, and you are good for us.

[machpunch777]

You think China is any different?

Every country does. America is no different than China. China is not in Africa for Charity any more than the Americans are. Nonetheless, both China and America want to win the hearts and minds of people everywhere, that's why they run things like Xinhau international paid directly with government monies, just like Voice of America. China should just be careful in incidents like where the Chinese supervisor killed mine workers, and then got off without charges. That did more damage to China's reputation in Africa than anything America could do.

http://www.lusakatimes.com/2010/12/31/mine...g-chinese-boss/
http://www.ituc-csi.org/zambia-charges-dro...wo.html?lang=en

If I were an African, I wouldn't trust the Chinese, Americans or Russians any more than I absolutely had to.

America makes friends with countries that call themselves Democracies and give free access to the internet, and its looked down upon when America supports countries that restrict information flow. China takes an alternative course and befriends leaders who do not want to follow the western model.

EDIT: Both America and China do have purely Charitable activities in Africa, for example Bill Gates anti Malaria campaign, but that is a separate issue.

i would gladly trade my access to the internet for a decently paid job, a girl who will be a good mom, and a house in xinjiang

[SinoDefender]

i would gladly trade my access to the internet for a decently paid job, a girl who will be a good mom, and a house in xinjiang

I think most people would make a similar trade. In reality its not an either or

Chinese are very honest. We say to Africans, we are your friends. Why, they ask? Because we will build you roads and develop your resources. We charge a fair salary, not 100 times the salary of your own workers. We are not your white knights coming to save you, put you on public dole to keep you weak. We are good for you, and you are good for us.

You really think Chinese traders will not make an extra profit when the opportunity presents itself? If Chinese are always, universally fair, what were the Mine workers protesting about in that article I linked?

Reality is, Chinese traders are motivated by the same thing everyone else is, profit. That's why those workers were getting paid four dollars a day...

And actually, the low salary of Chinese is a big complaint for many Africans. It means Chinese roads and developments are often built with much more Chinese labor. Only low wage, unskilled work for locals. If I were an African, I'd prefer a project where a few highly paid white engineers supervise. Then almost all the work gets contracted to locals. A Chinese project with Chinese engineers, specialists and tradesman leaves only grunt work for the locals, paying a few bucks a day.

PS. China tells Africans they are their friend, but what is that? Words. The same thing Americans say. we all have same motives when it comes to business and development. Or... tell me when China starts moving electronics manufacturing jobs to Africa. Not going to happen.

Also most Charity from the west to Africa goes to fighting HIV, Malaria... China also contributes to this lately. Giving people free health care is not an evil thing I don't think. They must be alive and healthy before they can develop their economies.

[Boron]

Whites have been in Africa for centuries. Where are the African specialists and tradesman that grew out of working under "highly paid white engineers"? Where are they? All you have is a fantasy that has never happened. The only thing happening is what Chinese actually are doing in Africa: building national infrastructure under fair exchange for the nation as a whole, not just to benefit some pockets of protected workers here or there.

[Yerroperil]

Even if some Chinese traders treat workers like sh!t,I don't recall Chinese ever enslaving Africans.

[SinoDefender]

Whites have been in Africa for centuries. Where are the African specialists and tradesman that grew out of working under "highly paid white engineers"? Where are they? All you have is a fantasy that has never happened. The only thing happening is what Chinese actually are doing in Africa: building national infrastructure under fair exchange for the nation as a whole, not just to benefit some pockets of protected workers here or there.

*rolleyes*

I'm not talking about 1950, 1850, 1750 or 1650, but 2011.

Even if some Chinese traders treat workers like sh!t,I don't recall Chinese ever enslaving Africans.

This kind of moral/historical argument might have relevance to you, but to most white people or Africans? Irrelevant. As an African living in Uganda, why should you care that the guy who is going to employ you, might, might have a long dead ancestor who owned slaves? Especially considering some of the contractors coming from America will themselves be black? I mean modern Jews don't even treat Germans with a special hostility, and some of the victims of that are still alive... Germany is one of Israel's best allies. Quite simply this argument is irrelevant to this debate.

As a historical point, there were African slaves in the Qing dynasty, not many, mainly as a curiosity, but I'm sure had they needed labor they would have gotten more. Of course they already had enough cheap labor... I don't think Chines people are any less or more capable of immorality.

AS A NOTE, I do think China's engagement has been very positive for Africa, bringing better prices for African resources and more economic development. But this is a simple supply and demand argument, more buyers results in better treatment of the seller (Africa). I don't buy into the idea that modern day Africans should give preferential treatment to any country, or consider any specific country their new equal partner. Every country will screw you if they can get away with it.

This post has been edited by SinoDefender: Nov 5 2011, 10:23 PM

[Boron]

Chinese have always competed on business strengths. We're not the ones who use media control to bad mouth and obstruct others.

[KraterosHellas]

america has a just reason to be afraid of africa. they have the bloodstains on their hands from enslaving and exploiting africans en masse. africans will study their history as they become more developed and educated and soon seek revenge on the west. china in the other hand has nothing to fear even if their relations with africa plummet or west-african relations strengthen because they never did those horrible things to africa.

[Boron]

^good idea. China should donate some history curriculums in these countries.

This post has been edited by Boron: Nov 5 2011, 11:00 PM

[Atheos]

america has a just reason to be afraid of africa. they have the bloodstains on their hands from enslaving and exploiting africans en masse. africans will study their history as they become more developed and educated and soon seek revenge on the west. china in the other hand has nothing to fear even if their relations with africa plummet or west-african relations strengthen because they never did those horrible things to africa.

Wow, you really must think Africans are pretty stupid! You really think they aren't aware of the Arab and European slave trade?

Granted, most Africans probably are not aware that the Chinese employed black slaves as well. So China could sponsor educational materials to make Africans aware of this. Informing them of the European slave trade would be redundant.

"Beginning in the Tang dynasty, Arab traders brought a number of East African slaves to China. Although historians have studied the African slave trade extensively, particularly the export of West African slaves to the Americas after 1500, a much smaller body of research focuses on the premodern East African slave trade, and fewer sources still mention black slaves in China.

From the eighth to the fourteenth centuries; the Arabs controlled this vast slave trade, which stretched not only along the entire coast of East Africa and throughout the Arab world but as far east as China. Black slaves were just one of many commodities in the Arabs' large-scale maritime trade with China, which peaked during the Tang and Song dynasty (960-1275).

The Jiu Tang shu 舊唐書 (Former Tang history) mentions that the Arabs sent delegates to the Chinese court in 651, marking the first recorded official contact between the Chinese government and the Arab caliphate. By the ninth century, a sizable community of Arabs lived in Guangzhou, and the local residents could have seen African slaves on trading ships and in Arab homes. Some wealthy Chinese people even owned African slaves, whom they used as doorkeepers."

Anyway, wars are never fought over this kind of historical crap, I'd say it's more likely that China would war with Japan to revenge WW2 crimes. Also the idea of a war between the west and Africa over slavery is amusing, with so many blacks in western countries it would nearly be a civil war.

Will China also seek revenge against Mongolians, for their blood stained hands? Do you, Krateros, as an Iranian, want to revenge Arabs for their invasion of the Sassanid empire? What about Greece?

[Hugham]

^
African slaves in China is not as significant and dreadful as those by Arabs and Europeans.

Most of them are just a security guard of small amount of wealthy people.

I don't even think it's a slavery at all.

Btw, African don't care about Arabs slavery, since half of them are Muslims now.


Actually China don't care about hegemony, including seeking influence in Africa.

I wonder how many African wear Hanfu or eat noodle?

It's the West who care much about influence.

Their meaning of influence is a total control over the whole Africa.

They don't want Africa to gain freedom and sovereignty to whoever they want to make trading and befriend.

They just want Africa to stick with the West and only the West.

The West don't want a multipolar world, where African and the rest of the world have a voice to decide world fate.

[Atheos]

^
African slaves in China is not as significant and dreadful as those by Arabs and Europeans.

Most of them are just a security guard of small amount of wealthy people.

I don't even think it's a slavery at all.

Btw, African don't care about Arabs slavery, since half of them are Muslims now.

You must have been to a different version of Africa, if anything, sub-Saharan Africans are more concerned about Arab enslavement of blacks since it is still going on. And Africans are not a hive mind, just look at Nigeria, Animists (ancestor worship types), Christians and Muslims have totally different views on many issues.
http://www.antislavery.org/english/what_we...mauritania.aspx

Actually China don't care about hegemony, including seeking influence in Africa.

I wonder how many African wear Hanfu or eat noodle?

It's the West who care much about influence.

Their meaning of influence is a total control over the whole Africa.

They don't want Africa to gain freedom and sovereignty to whoever they want to make trading and befriend.

They just want Africa to stick with the West and only the West.

The West don't want a multipolar world, where African and the rest of the world have a voice to decide world fate.

Actually there are a lot of Chinese in Africa, I'm guessing you haven't been there. In some places people are resentful of them for being successful and running all the markets.

Outside of France, there's no European country that even spends a dime promoting its language or culture in Africa. China does try a bit, with its Confucius institutes.

The west would be happy to have Africa take care of its own problems, maybe not the power elite, but most people in the west would love to have Africa be strong enough to sort things out itself. Hence America's support for the African Union and endorsement of the East African Community (which will eventually become one country).

In real terms, the west is no more united in its vision for Africa than the east. Some countries are encouraging manufacturing there, like Japan and France, and others treat Africa in a more neo-Colonial fashion, like China and the US. China and the US export all manner of low cost goods to Africa in exchange for raw materials. The number of manufacturing jobs in Africa has actually decreased as a result over the last decade. African textile producers have been decimated by Chinese competition. But China, Africa, Japan and France are just following their own self interest in Africa. China has a lot of people to employ so any extra market for finished goods is a plus, the US less so. France and Japan are maxed out when it comes to labor utilization so they profit by setting up shop in Africa. Ultimately, it's up to Africans to look after their own interests, neither the east nor west will ever do it for them.

Honestly, I'd be surprised to find a single manufactured good from Africa for sale in China.

This post has been edited by Atheos: Dec 2 2011, 07:27 PM