Philippines genetic distance between other Asians as compared to Eurpe, Autosomal study! Options

[AnybodyKiller]

They dont look pure Australoid. They look Mongoloid/Australoid mix. And I think so since they're Micronesians. I don't think they represent pure Australoids. If you look at the chart I posted earlier, the bar that is almost completely Australoid is the Melanesian bar. I think most of the Australoid in Filipinos comes from Negritos & Melanesians.

That's a good point. You're probably right

Still melanesian type australoid is different from native australians.

EDIT: I might be mistaken. Australian natives may have been the same before Asian and European influence on their genes. Now they cluster pretty differently though.

This post has been edited by AnybodyKiller: Dec 25 2011, 05:39 PM

[Prau123]

The original research is linked with the spreadsheet, while the one in Diekenes is his interpretation. So if you want the facts, stick with the spreadsheet.



Maybe that is true for the rulers (datus, rajahs, sultans), but for the majority of the ordinary commonfolk, it's more probable that they are the natives who settled there from the beginning.

There are numerous theories of origins of Philippines tribes made by educated Filipinos themselves during the Spanish period, linking their own ancestry to the "high civilizations" of India. LOL

For example:
Kapampangans and Ilocanos are said to come from Sumatra (Indonesia);
Tagalogs are said to come from Melaka (Malaysia);
Bicolanos and Visayans are said to come from Makassar (Indonesia).

Not only is this misleading, but it's not at all supported by anthropological, genetic, historical, and philologic studies. And most importantly, it does not make sense.

For example, the languages of Tagalog, Visayans, and Bicolanos are close to each other and do not have any close relations with other languages outside of the Philippine Islands. On the other hand, the languages of Ilocano, Pampango, Pangasinense, Igorots, and other Northerners are very similar to Taiwanese Aboriginal languages.

--
On the other hand, Filipinos come in all forms, shapes, and sizes. Not all Ilocanos are dark-skinned, not all Visayans look like Southeast Asians, and so on and so forth.

However, in general, Northern Luzon peoples (including Ilocanos) tend to be lightest among the native populations of the Philippines, except of course for the inhabitants of the Cagayan Valley, where there are many pure and half Negritos.

The Ilocanos of Cagayan, Isabela, and Nueva Viscaya for example, are NOT Pure Ilocanos but are native Gaddangs or Itawis who adopted the language of a few migrants from the Ilocos region.

Thank you. So it's PA-SNP. I'll be looking into it more.

I do realize that there was an Ilocanization of the Northern Luzon, so people who may identify themselves as Ilocano may actually have little to no Ilocano ancestry. But from my experience, most Northern Filipinos that I've met are relatively dark compared to Visayans. It's a common perception among Visayans that Ilocanos and Northern Filipinos in general are slightly darker. Are non-Ilocano Northern Filipinos such as the Itawis and Gaddang darker in phenotype, and are they the reason why Northern Filipinos are darker? Is it because the Ilocanos mixed with the darker Itawis, Gaddang, etc.? Even Pangasinans and the people of Zambales province look darker than Visayans in my honest opinion.

As for the linguistic connections between Kapampangan and Sumatra/Peninsular Malaysia, how does one account for that? Was the linguistic influence due to the datus, rajahs, and sultans that migrated to Luzon from Sumatra/Peninsular Malaysia? Or trade or some combination thereof?

Thing is there are different types of "Australoids" (if everyone must insist on using the word. )

The ~35% in Filipinos is "K type". People who look like this.




just do a google image search of "Kapingamarangi people" or "Kapingamarangi" (This population has highest frequencies of K and corresponding markers).

Negritos are of the C and D line




EVERYONE PLEASE READ THIS LINK. PAGE 618 and see that Australian Natives cluster closer to East Asians than to Southeast Asians. It is very important we recognize that certain types of Australoids cluster relatively far from each other if we want to discuss them accurately.


EDIT: Page 618 is a good visual display

I'll be reading the study. Thank you for the link. It looks very informative.

This post has been edited by Prau123: Dec 24 2011, 06:23 PM

[AnybodyKiller]

Thank you. So it's PA-SNP. I'll be looking into it more.

I do realize that there was an Ilocanization of the Northern Luzon, so people who may identify themselves as Ilocano may actually have little to no Ilocano ancestry. But from my experience, most Northern Filipinos that I've met are relatively dark compared to Visayans. It's a common perception among Visayans that Ilocanos and Northern Filipinos in general are slightly darker. Are non-Ilocano Northern Filipinos such as the Itawis and Gaddang darker in phenotype, and are they the reason why Northern Filipinos are darker? Is it because the Ilocanos mixed with the darker Itawis, Gaddang, etc.? Even Pangasinans and the people of Zambales province look darker than Visayans in my honest opinion.

As for the linguistic connections between Kapampangan and Sumatra/Peninsular Malaysia, how does one account for that? Was the linguistic influence due to the datus, rajahs, and sultans that migrated to Luzon from Sumatra/Peninsular Malaysia? Or trade or some combination thereof?



I'll be reading the study. Thank you for the link. It looks very informative.

Np, I still haven't finished it either, just skimmed over it.

@Graham_Cracker07

According to figure 3, Rapanui might be the furthest of the "Melanesian" type "Australoids".

Keep in mind this dispaly is only for markers associated with MT-DNA though.

Maybe they are the closest people we will find to "pure Melanesian" type?

Learn something new everyday! In the future I will take care to distinguish between the Melanesian and Papuan type of Australoids to be more accurate.

EDIT: On page 619, Filipinos fall between Koreans and Javanese in STR genetic distances. This figure shows the Oceanic populations and Asian populations clustering in a different manner. I think maybe because this study was done in 1998. I don't think they did studies with thousands of SNP's included yet...

This post has been edited by AnybodyKiller: Dec 24 2011, 07:51 PM

[silangan]

In Mindanao, people also think that Ilocanos and Ilonggos are dark. But I think, it's more of what they heard than what they see. I grew up among Cebuano Visayans, Ilonggos, Ilocanos, etc. The differences I could see is mostly on the expressions on the faces.
Central Visayans (Cebuanos) have the biggest, more deep set eyes. I really wonder why Cebuanos continue to believe that Ilonggos are dark when we see these people eveyday and they are not dark. This belief may have started when the Spanish used large portions of Western Visayas to planting sugarcane and the workers, who were Ilonggos were exposed to too much sun. I don't know, I'm just guessing. Buy certainly, present day Ilonggos are not dark. As for the Ilocanos, they are just as regular as far as I can remember. I'll try to take note of this when I go home for vacation. What's vivid is, the expression on the faces.

[ocrapdm]

They dont look pure Australoid. They look Mongoloid/Australoid mix. And I think so since they're Micronesians. I don't think they represent pure Australoids. If you look at the chart I posted earlier, the bar that is almost completely Australoid is the Melanesian bar. I think most of the Australoid in Filipinos comes from Negritos & Melanesians.

SO TRUE. Micronesians are probably Mongoloid/Australoid mix, just like Malays.

The PUREST Australoids are the AUSTRALIAN ABORIGINES.

Even the Negritos have a LARGE CHUNK of East Asian genes.

[ocrapdm]

Thank you. So it's PA-SNP. I'll be looking into it more.

I do realize that there was an Ilocanization of the Northern Luzon, so people who may identify themselves as Ilocano may actually have little to no Ilocano ancestry. But from my experience, most Northern Filipinos that I've met are relatively dark compared to Visayans. It's a common perception among Visayans that Ilocanos and Northern Filipinos in general are slightly darker. Are non-Ilocano Northern Filipinos such as the Itawis and Gaddang darker in phenotype, and are they the reason why Northern Filipinos are darker? Is it because the Ilocanos mixed with the darker Itawis, Gaddang, etc.? Even Pangasinans and the people of Zambales province look darker than Visayans in my honest opinion.

As for the linguistic connections between Kapampangan and Sumatra/Peninsular Malaysia, how does one account for that? Was the linguistic influence due to the datus, rajahs, and sultans that migrated to Luzon from Sumatra/Peninsular Malaysia? Or trade or some combination thereof?

Yep, so-called ILOCANOS from Cagayan Valley are Gaddangs, Itawes, and migrant Igorots who just adopted the Ilocano culture of Luzon.

The TRUE ILOCANO PEOPLES from the western portion of Luzon are largely SINGKITS (almond eyed) and look quite East Asian relative to the other peoples of the Philippines.

When you get to the Cordillera mountains, you'll notice that many can pass as one of the Chinese tribal minorities. Igorots for example are related to the native inhabitants of Hainan Island in China. Hainan was formerly populated by one of the YUE tribes before being inundated by an influx of migrants from China's Fukien province.

Yep, Itawis and Gaddang and many OTHER EAST LUZON PEOPLES are dark, due to their Australoid admixture. Australoid admixture is HEAVY along the EAST coast, while the Mongoloid admixture is HEAVY along the WESTERN COAST. MAKES SENSE, if you look at the geography. Western Philippines faces Asia, while Eastern PH faces Micronesia.

About Zambales people - well, it's because the Sambal people are originally Ami-Negrito who gradually mixed with more recent Chinese and Okinawan migrants. The Sambal people - well, the original ones, shave their foreheads like the Chinese and practice quite a lot of Chinese traditions.

In Mindanao, people also think that Ilocanos and Ilonggos are dark. But I think, it's more of what they heard than what they see. I grew up among Cebuano Visayans, Ilonggos, Ilocanos, etc. The differences I could see is mostly on the expressions on the faces.
Central Visayans (Cebuanos) have the biggest, more deep set eyes. I really wonder why Cebuanos continue to believe that Ilonggos are dark when we see these people eveyday and they are not dark. This belief may have started when the Spanish used large portions of Western Visayas to planting sugarcane and the workers, who were Ilonggos were exposed to too much sun. I don't know, I'm just guessing. Buy certainly, present day Ilonggos are not dark. As for the Ilocanos, they are just as regular as far as I can remember. I'll try to take note of this when I go home for vacation. What's vivid is, the expression on the faces.

Muslim Filipinos seem to be one of the most light-skinned people in the Philippines. Even the poorest among them have a fair complexion. This is attributed to the Arabic and Persian admixtures among the people.

[AnybodyKiller]

Yep, so-called ILOCANOS from Cagayan Valley are Gaddangs, Itawes, and migrant Igorots who just adopted the Ilocano culture of Luzon.

The TRUE ILOCANO PEOPLES from the western portion of Luzon are largely SINGKITS (almond eyed) and look quite East Asian relative to the other peoples of the Philippines.

When you get to the Cordillera mountains, you'll notice that many can pass as one of the Chinese tribal minorities. Igorots for example are related to the native inhabitants of Hainan Island in China. Hainan was formerly populated by one of the YUE tribes before being inundated by an influx of migrants from China's Fukien province.

Yep, Itawis and Gaddang and many OTHER EAST LUZON PEOPLES are dark, due to their Australoid admixture. Australoid admixture is HEAVY along the EAST coast, while the Mongoloid admixture is HEAVY along the WESTERN COAST. MAKES SENSE, if you look at the geography. Western Philippines faces Asia, while Eastern PH faces Micronesia.

About Zambales people - well, it's because the Sambal people are originally Ami-Negrito who gradually mixed with more recent Chinese and Okinawan migrants. The Sambal people - well, the original ones, shave their foreheads like the Chinese and practice quite a lot of Chinese traditions.



Muslim Filipinos seem to be one of the most light-skinned people in the Philippines. Even the poorest among them have a fair complexion. This is attributed to the Arabic and Persian admixtures among the people.

Melanesian are the 'purest' Australoids. I read on a genetics blog that Australian natives would have looked like them hundreds of years ago before Asian and European settlers arrived.

[silangan]

The wrinkles on the outer sides of the eyes among many elderly Ilocanos, Pangasinenses and some Pampangans are one of the signs I could tell them apart from elderly Bisayans in Mindanao.

[Prau123]

In Mindanao, people also think that Ilocanos and Ilonggos are dark. But I think, it's more of what they heard than what they see. I grew up among Cebuano Visayans, Ilonggos, Ilocanos, etc. The differences I could see is mostly on the expressions on the faces.
Central Visayans (Cebuanos) have the biggest, more deep set eyes. I really wonder why Cebuanos continue to believe that Ilonggos are dark when we see these people eveyday and they are not dark. This belief may have started when the Spanish used large portions of Western Visayas to planting sugarcane and the workers, who were Ilonggos were exposed to too much sun. I don't know, I'm just guessing. Buy certainly, present day Ilonggos are not dark. As for the Ilocanos, they are just as regular as far as I can remember. I'll try to take note of this when I go home for vacation. What's vivid is, the expression on the faces.

I've always thought it was common knowledge that Ilocanos were some of the most darkest among the lowland Filipinos. Nothing wrong with being dark by the way, it's a wonderful color. I myself can get very dark if I stay out in the sun. My Ilocano relatives are often slightly darker than my pure Visayan relatives. One even jokingly said that the one thing he inherited from his Ilocano father was his dark skin, and his father was from Ilocos Norte or Sur. Even among some of my Ilocano friends from Ilocos Norte or Sur who have Chinese ancestry look quite dark. Most of the Filipinos in Hawaii are Ilocanos (or who at least identify themselves as Ilocanos), and they look dark or even darker compared to Visayans. I always thought this was common knowledge.

Yep, so-called ILOCANOS from Cagayan Valley are Gaddangs, Itawes, and migrant Igorots who just adopted the Ilocano culture of Luzon.

The TRUE ILOCANO PEOPLES from the western portion of Luzon are largely SINGKITS (almond eyed) and look quite East Asian relative to the other peoples of the Philippines.

When you get to the Cordillera mountains, you'll notice that many can pass as one of the Chinese tribal minorities. Igorots for example are related to the native inhabitants of Hainan Island in China. Hainan was formerly populated by one of the YUE tribes before being inundated by an influx of migrants from China's Fukien province.

Yep, Itawis and Gaddang and many OTHER EAST LUZON PEOPLES are dark, due to their Australoid admixture. Australoid admixture is HEAVY along the EAST coast, while the Mongoloid admixture is HEAVY along the WESTERN COAST. MAKES SENSE, if you look at the geography. Western Philippines faces Asia, while Eastern PH faces Micronesia.

About Zambales people - well, it's because the Sambal people are originally Ami-Negrito who gradually mixed with more recent Chinese and Okinawan migrants. The Sambal people - well, the original ones, shave their foreheads like the Chinese and practice quite a lot of Chinese traditions.



Muslim Filipinos seem to be one of the most light-skinned people in the Philippines. Even the poorest among them have a fair complexion. This is attributed to the Arabic and Persian admixtures among the people.

So the Mongoloid component of today's Austronesians originate from Southern China and perhaps even as far south as Northern Vietnam, and then migrated in two directions into the Philippines? One through Taiwan, and then onto Luzon which would comprise the majority of the genetics of todays Northern Filipinos (north of Manila and Bicol region) which includes the Ilocanos, Pangasinans, Kapampangans, Ibanags, Itawis, and the Cordilleran ethnic groups such as the Igorot, Ifugao, and etc., and that these groups are closely related to the Ami of Taiwan, and have little to no Austro-Asiatic genetic component, no Daic genetic component, but do have Yueh, Proto-Ainud, and Papuan; and then another migration from the south by way of Borneo which would form today's Visayans, Tagalogs, Bicolanos, Surigaoans, Tausugs, Maguindanao, Maranao, and also the early "brown" looking ethnic groups such as the Manobo, T'boli, Suludnon, Mangyan, and etc., and these groups would have a higher Austro-Asiatic genetic component in them, Yueh, Daic, Proto-Ainud, Papuan, Negrito, and also varying levels of Melanesian for the Visayans and Mindanao groups.

I've copied and pasted from your post from the other thread "Are Visayans from Indonesia?": http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?...7203&st=220

Post #221:

Yue + Some Daic + Mostly Huaxia = Southern Chinese
Yue + Daic + Tiny Veddoid = Modern Viet
Yue + Proto-Ainuid = Taiwanese Aboriginals
Yue + Proto-Ainuid / Papuan + Some Negrito = Northern Luzon people like Ilocano
Yue + Daic + Proto-Ainuid / Papuan + Some Negrito = Southern Luzon people like Tagalog
Yue + Daic + Proto-Ainuid / Papuan + Some Negrito + Some Melanesian = Visayan people
Yue + Daic + Proto-Ainuid / Papuan + Some Negrito + Melanesian = Mindanao people

Daic + Yue + Orang Asli = Peninsula Malays
Daic + Yue + Orang Asli + Veddoid = Sumatra Malays
Daic + Yue + Papuan + Veddoid = Western Indonesians like Javanese
Daic + Yue + Massive amounts of Papuan + Some Australian Aboriginal = Eastern Indonesians

Edit: We should understand that today's genetic testing has severe limitations as you know. It can only analyze admixture to a certain extent, for example, it cannot differentiate admixture too far into the past. So the Yueh themselves could be a composition of other groups, although here we take them to be the Mongoloid component, but they may not be fully Mongoloid, and may themselves be partially Australoid. And then of course there's genetic drift.

This post has been edited by Prau123: Dec 25 2011, 11:11 PM

[silangan]

Yes, I always hear people say that Ilocanos, Ilonggos and Igorots are dark, even to the extent that Igorots have kinky hair. But I've seen so many of these people and they are just within the same fold as other Filipinos. There are dark and light in all of them. No particular tribe monopolize any shade. And Filipinos have generally straight hair even the Igorots. I could tell tribes mostly by the expression on their faces, the angles, the position of the eyes. Check out well known Ilocanos, ex president Marcos, Ramos and Quirino and compare them with well known Visayan, ex president Roxas. You can tell their tribe by the expression on their faces. Marcos and Quirino have the strongest Ilocano features on their faces. Roxas's eyes are very Ilonggo. Ramos would look somewhat out of place in the Visayas for the keen observant. It's not always the case though, and it's more difficult with photographs. The Mindanao setting is very good place to notice the difference among the lowland Filipinos since people from Luzon and Visayas migrated there.
What I noticed anyway is that, the city dwellers have lighter skin complexion than those who come from remote areas. And those more affluent people in remote areas have lighter skin regardless of which tribe they belong, wonder why. Maybe the food they eat or that they don't necessarily get themselves exposed to the sun to earn a living.

[ocrapdm]

So the Mongoloid component of today's Austronesians originate from Southern China and perhaps even as far south as Northern Vietnam, and then migrated in two directions into the Philippines? One through Taiwan, and then onto Luzon which would comprise the majority of the genetics of todays Northern Filipinos (north of Manila and Bicol region) which includes the Ilocanos, Pangasinans, Kapampangans, Ibanags, Itawis, and the Cordilleran ethnic groups such as the Igorot, Ifugao, and etc., and that these groups are closely related to the Ami of Taiwan, and have little to no Austro-Asiatic genetic component, no Daic genetic component, but do have Yueh, Proto-Ainud, and Papuan; and then another migration from the south by way of Borneo which would form today's Visayans, Tagalogs, Bicolanos, Surigaoans, Tausugs, Maguindanao, Maranao, and also the early "brown" looking ethnic groups such as the Manobo, T'boli, Suludnon, Mangyan, and etc., and these groups would have a higher Austro-Asiatic genetic component in them, Yueh, Daic, Proto-Ainud, Papuan, Negrito, and also varying levels of Melanesian for the Visayans and Mindanao groups.

Yeah, Filipino peoples are formed by a two way migration.

MOSTLY AMI PEOPLES are the Ilocano, Ivatan, Igorot, Pangasinense, and Pampangan.
MOSTLY AMI-DAIC PEOPLES are the Tagalog, Bicolano, Visayans, Tausug and the rest.

[moppom]

Yeah, Filipino peoples are formed by a two way migration.

MOSTLY AMI PEOPLES are the Ilocano, Ivatan, Igorot, Pangasinense, and Pampangan.
MOSTLY AMI-DAIC PEOPLES are the Tagalog, Bicolano, Visayans, Tausug and the rest.

Interesting, so seeing as to how you claimed you weren't chinese 3 years ago,

from which of those 2 migrations did your family come?

[thewiseguy]

PRECISELY. Filipinos are 30-35% Australoid.

The great differences between East Asian and Southeast Asian features (more pronounced among males) can't be explained by simple environmental differentiation:

Average Northeast Asian male

Average Mainland Southeast Asian male

Average Maritime Southeast Asian male (including Pinoys)

There's a gradient: less Mongoloid and more Australoid features from North to South.


And the East Asian (which is quite large) of Austronesians come from the She peoples of Fujian, China.

I would put Cambodian in the Average Maritime Southeast Asian look too.

[ocrapdm]

I would put Cambodian in the Average Maritime Southeast Asian look too.

Khmers are probably related to Cham people.

[AnybodyKiller]

Also, not to beat a dead horse but.. You have to realize that many "Australoids" are actually different races from each other. Ainu, Australian Aboriginals, Melanesians, Papuans and the "K Carriers"(No pure ones left IMO), Indians etc. Are all pretty distant from each other. They are usually easy to distinguish visibly as well.

This post has been edited by AnybodyKiller: Jan 4 2012, 09:03 PM