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Spratley Islands, who owns it?
redhotchili
post Jun 26 2004, 07:55 AM
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ok, who does?

there's china, the philippines, and vietnam.

NQSH says that it should be vietnam because they've been claiming it for a hundred years.

the philippines is there because it falls on its territory. (i think we already sent people to live on that island)

the size of the islands is miniscule but it has potential for producing fuel.

so?

EDIT:
says i:
QUOTE
there's also vietnam who sent tourists to the islands.


NQSH:
QUOTE
The Spratlys has never belonged to you guys. We claimed it for over a century until somehow Philippines "discovered" it 30 years ago.


halohalo:
QUOTE
Vietnam doesnt own Spratly Islands either


NQSH:
QUOTE
What crap are you talking about?

Go and do some research on the history of the Spratlys.


halohalo:
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Spratly Island are claimed by different Asian nations. China, Taiwan also claim it in its entirety, not juz Vietnam, based on historical reason. Only portions are claimed by Malaysia and the Philippines.


NQSH:
QUOTE
Claiming it is one thing but the actual right to claim it is another. Vietnam claims it due to historical reasons and we were the first people to inhabit it. What's Pi's reason for claiming it?


halohalo:
QUOTE
The third important part of the UNCLOS is Part VI, which justifies claims by Brunei, Malaysia and the Philippines. Justification is based on proximity, not history; hence, China's and Taiwan's historical claims would not likely win arbitrated cases.

Asian Executives Poll:
In a 7 November 1996 poll, 47.6% of Asian business leaders indicated the Philippines had the strongest claim to the Spratly Islands. China accounted for 24.1% of the vote, while Vietnam claimed 13.9% of the vote, Malaysia picked up 9.6%, Taiwan carried 3.6%, and Brunei captured 1.2% of the business leaders' votes.(37)

Supposedly included in Spanish territory by the 1494 Treaty of Tordesillas....


This post has been edited by redhotchili: Jun 26 2004, 08:10 AM
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Forumwalker
post Jun 27 2004, 02:24 AM
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i go for halohalo's reasoning.. that's a fact. vietnam's claim cannot be simply justified by that coz if that is the case, the Sultan of Sulu can claim Sabah from Malaysia because it was given to the Sultanate hundreds of years ago too...
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dalawapo
post Jun 27 2004, 05:03 AM
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i think the Philippines Government is too STUPID to handle her own international disputes, look at sabah and spartly islands, the philippines have strong and legitimate claims to both and yet who is persuing it?
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Forumwalker
post Jun 27 2004, 06:50 AM
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not stupid but lacks the international influence and backing.. because of wat? poor economy, no military might and is a nation not regionally THAT important compared to Singapore, Brunei, etc
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Ek-ek
post Jun 27 2004, 10:18 PM
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QUOTE (Forumwalker @ Jun 27 2004, 04:24 PM)
i go for halohalo's reasoning.. that's a fact. vietnam's claim cannot be simply justified by that coz if that is the case, the Sultan of Sulu can claim Sabah from Malaysia because it was given to the Sultanate hundreds of years ago too...

embarassedlaugh.gif Right it is still being disputed by several countries like China, Vietnam, Philippines, Taiwan, Malaysia, Brunei.
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Forumwalker
post Jun 28 2004, 06:57 AM
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at least the philippines has more right.. hehe
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Byron
post Jun 28 2004, 05:08 PM
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/asia-pacific/3714627.stm

"Vietnam re-builds Spratly airport"

"It is a small airport that was used by South Vietnamese forces during the Vietnam War and was captured in 1975," said Duong Xuan Hoi, of Vietnam's tourist ministry.

The fact that we have an airport on one of the spratly island, by South Vietnam a long time ago shows that it is Vietnam territory or else we wouldn't have had that airport.

The fact that this airport was AFTER the U.N was established and international laws have already been set by the U.N shows that the island was already occupied by Vietnamese troops and used by Vietnam and is considered Vietnamese territory.

This airport didn't magically appear out of nowhere. Funny how when South Vietnam had an airport on the island, no one disputed that South Vietnam had no right to be using those islands. But after people suggested their might be oil all these countries now say that the islands belong to them. LOL

This post has been edited by Byron: Jun 28 2004, 05:12 PM
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直隸總督
post Jun 28 2004, 05:15 PM
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http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4511
Says I :
the South China Sea basically consists of 東沙群島 Pratas Islands, 西沙群島 Paracel Islands, 中沙群島 ( i forgot its english name) and 南沙群島 Spartly Islands.
According to ROC's South Sea ( South China Sea) policy and CCP Ministry of Diplomacy, China's sovereignty over the entire South Sea is undebatable. We can trace all the way back to 2nd century b.c. ( Han Dynasty). Chinese already discovered Paracel and Spartly. By 7th century A.D ( Tang dyansty), Chinese had already been living on these two groups of Islands, and Spartly was already a part of Guangdong province. In Yuan dynasty, Paracel was named 千里長沙 Qian Li Chang Sha, Spartly was named 萬里石塘 Wan Li Shi Tang. And by Ming and Qing dynasty, the South China Sea islands were all under the jursidction of Chinese government. ( you may refer to 瓊州府誌 or 萬州誌, published in Ming dynasty).
Besides, there are also historical records both from China and foreign countries. Such as Zheng He's 鄭和航海圖 ( Navigation Map of Zheng He), Qing dynasty's 四海總圖 ( General Map of 4 seas), 皇清各直省分圖 ( Map of Imperial Qing's provinces) and 大清一統天下圖 ( Map of Great Qing Unification). plus foreign sources such as J.Johnson of USA, the appendix map in his book 東方航行者 ( I don't know the english name either). and British Navy's China Sea Pilot. In both sources, they all refer South China Sea as "China Sea". very obvious.
After WW2, According to the Cairo Conference, Japanese returned the islands of South Sea to the government of Republic of China. In 1947, the government drew out a U-type boundaries of South China Sea, which covers from 10930'E to 11750'E and 340'N to 2158'N.
=============================
Major players :
- legit ownders : China ( ROC and PRC )
- illegal occupants/claimants : Vietnam, Philippines, Malaysia
- someone who's trying to mess up : U.S.A

China's Claims :
(As stated above.)

Vietnam's Claims :
Vietnam also uses the archaepological "evidences", claiming the entire archipelago. It's been said that in 1815 the emperor of Annam, Gia Long, sent an expedition force and occupied the islands, which they referred as Truong Sa. In 1933, French annexed the Spratly islands, therefore Vietnam inherited the islands from the French. In 1973, Spratly islands were declared to be part of the Phuoc Tuy province. Later then it claimed the entire archipelago as a dictrict of Khanh Hoa province.

Malaysia's Claims :
Malaysia current has control of three islands but it claims the whole chain. Based on Law of the Sea Convention, the Spratlys are a part of its continental shelf, therefore Malaysia should be the rightful owner.

Philippines' Claims :
Philippines claimed the Spratlys with the excuse that in 1956, they sent an expedition and occupied some of the islands. A Manila lawyer, Tomas Clomas, named them Kalayaan, which means freedomland. In 1968, Filipino troops were sent to Kalayaan. Since then informal claims had been put forth by the government. In 1978, Filipino government officially declared the Spratly Islands were part of Palawan province " by virtue of their presence on the continental margin of the archipelago", and claimed that the islands were no man's land and free to be claimed.

USA's Claims:
Anything anti-China is good. In 1976, U.S.A stated that China invaded and captured the Paracel Islands from Vietnam, while Paracel Islands were originally under the jursidiction of China. And Americans also described the event as following " Disputes have been propelled by an aggressive China, eager to meet growing energy demands that outstript its supply capacity. Moreover, China's historical interpretation of its sovereignty rights ignores current international law."

Conclusion/Counter-proofs :
- first, what does it say in Law of Sea Convention? It doesn't not state that any islands on the same continental shelf shall belong to the same country. If by that reason, then Philippines should be long to Malaysia or vice versa. And there's no rights granted in the law that any country can extend its territories over to other countries just because they're on the same continental shelf. Law of Sea Convention also causes many problems such as the territorial waters of countries are overlapped ( conflicting), which is also a cause of the South Sea dispute. Moreover, USA has already violated it by flying spy planes over China's territorial waters, but the USA government apparently has not faced any type of formal charge. Therefore, the Law of Sea Convention proves to be inadequate, it must be revised. Meanwhile, this internation "law" has no real values to be regarded.
- Cuurent status : PRC holds 6 islands, ROC holds Tai Ping Island ( Itu Aba island, the largest island in Spratly), Vietnam illegally occupies 17 islands , philippines 9, malaysia 3.
- According to Cairo Conference and Potsdam, Japan had to return all its illegal posssessions back to China , including Manzhou and Taiwan. The Spratlys at the time was a part of Japanese Taiwan colony. Therefore , of course, Spratly Islands were also returned to China along with Taiwan.
- From USA media, it's been claiming that Malaysia and Philippines' claims are all well-coordinated and defined. While China ( both ROC and PRC) has no clear definition of their claims. But in fact, early in 1946 and 1947, the Chinese government had already drawn out the correct longtitudes and latitudes of our territories. Not even mentioning our sovereignty in previous dynasties.
- It's funny how USA keeps saying "aggressive China", while ROC government in Taiwan also uses almost an exactly the same claims as the PRC. No one ever called it "aggressive Taiwan".
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Byron
post Jun 28 2004, 05:19 PM
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Vietnam has ancient evidence showing they were on the islands first, and there is an airport on the island used by South Vietnam during the Vietnam War that shows it was occupied by Vietnam after the U.N was established.

Also Vietnam has the most troops on the Spratly Islands and has the most islands as well, so also by rule of majority, Vietnam wins. icon_smile.gif

This post has been edited by Byron: Jun 28 2004, 05:19 PM
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Nam Quoc Son Ha
post Jun 28 2004, 05:19 PM
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The point is Vietnam claimed it for 150 years and no country raised their voice. When oil is suspected of being present there, all the countries in the region start claiming it as their own. sure.gif
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blank book
post Jun 28 2004, 05:38 PM
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QUOTE
- Cuurent status : PRC holds 6 islands, ROC holds Tai Ping Island ( Itu Aba island, the largest island in Spratly), Vietnam illegally occupies 17 islands , philippines 9, malaysia 3.


Tell me, how is it possible to illegally occupy land when the land in question has no legitimate owner, and who makes up the rules about proper ownership of disputed lands? If Vietnam illegally occupies 17 islands then what about the other countries? How are they legally occupying disputed land?

If I remember correctly, Vietnam, China and Taiwan claim the entire group of islands while Brunei, the Philippines and Malaysia claim parts of the Spratleys. History has shown that land ownership falls to the strongest nations, past claims mean nothing since even today's borders are not static. Nations have been conquering and dividing other nations and states for centuries, if it were not for certain countries that wish to maintain the status quo, the world today might look very different from our current map of the world. Besides, did all the said countries not recently agree to not going to war over the Spartleys? I wouldn't want Asian countries to be fighting each other over oil.
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Nam Quoc Son Ha
post Jun 28 2004, 05:50 PM
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QUOTE (blank book @ Jun 28 2004, 06:38 PM)
QUOTE
- Cuurent status : PRC holds 6 islands, ROC holds Tai Ping Island ( Itu Aba island, the largest island in Spratly), Vietnam illegally occupies 17 islands , philippines 9, malaysia 3.


Tell me, how is it possible to illegally occupy land when the land in question has no legitimate owner, and who makes up the rules about proper ownership of disputed lands? If Vietnam illegally occupies 17 islands then what about the other countries? How are they legally occupying disputed land?

If I remember correctly, Vietnam, China and Taiwan claim the entire group of islands while Brunei, the Philippines and Malaysia claim parts of the Spratleys. History has shown that land ownership falls to the strongest nations, past claims mean nothing since even today's borders are not static. Nations have been conquering and dividing other nations and states for centuries, if it were not for certain countries that wish to maintain the status quo, the world today might look very different from our current map of the world. Besides, did all the said countries not recently agree to not going to war over the Spartleys? I wouldn't want Asian countries to be fighting each other over oil.

And I suppose he thinks that Chinese occupation of these islands are "legal". embarassedlaugh.gif
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TopNotch
post Jun 28 2004, 05:55 PM
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QUOTE (Nam Quoc Son Ha @ Jun 28 2004, 06:50 PM)
QUOTE (blank book @ Jun 28 2004, 06:38 PM)
QUOTE
- Cuurent status : PRC holds 6 islands, ROC holds Tai Ping Island ( Itu Aba island, the largest island in Spratly), Vietnam illegally occupies 17 islands , philippines 9, malaysia 3.


Tell me, how is it possible to illegally occupy land when the land in question has no legitimate owner, and who makes up the rules about proper ownership of disputed lands? If Vietnam illegally occupies 17 islands then what about the other countries? How are they legally occupying disputed land?

If I remember correctly, Vietnam, China and Taiwan claim the entire group of islands while Brunei, the Philippines and Malaysia claim parts of the Spratleys. History has shown that land ownership falls to the strongest nations, past claims mean nothing since even today's borders are not static. Nations have been conquering and dividing other nations and states for centuries, if it were not for certain countries that wish to maintain the status quo, the world today might look very different from our current map of the world. Besides, did all the said countries not recently agree to not going to war over the Spartleys? I wouldn't want Asian countries to be fighting each other over oil.

And I suppose he thinks that Chinese occupation of these islands are "legal". embarassedlaugh.gif

First Paracel , now Spratly. madgo.gif
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Byron
post Jun 28 2004, 05:57 PM
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fu-king Paracels which is undisputely ours, but when the South was busy fighting the North, the Chinese sneak in with 11 warships and launch an attack on the Paracels with only 4 warships and the South couldn't reinforce them because they were busy fighting the North. If it wasn't for the North, Vietnam's superior American Warships would have taken out the PLA warships. bawling.gif

This post has been edited by Byron: Jun 28 2004, 05:58 PM
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Nam Quoc Son Ha
post Jun 28 2004, 06:00 PM
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That's the sneaky tactics of the shrewd imperialists from the north. And they think we're illegally occupying their islands. If their same argument goes the other way, Mongolia should have the right to China, or Japan legally owns half of China. embarassedlaugh.gif
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TopNotch
post Jun 28 2004, 06:03 PM
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QUOTE (Nam Quoc Son Ha @ Jun 28 2004, 07:00 PM)
That's the sneaky tactics of the shrewd imperialists from the north. And they think we're illegally occupying their islands. If their same argument goes the other way, Mongolia should have the right to China, or Japan legally owns half of China. embarassedlaugh.gif

I concur.
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Nam Quoc Son Ha
post Jun 28 2004, 06:09 PM
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QUOTE
直隸總督- According to Cairo Conference and Potsdam, Japan had to return all its illegal posssessions back to China , including Manzhou and Taiwan. The Spratlys at the time was a part of Japanese Taiwan colony. Therefore , of course, Spratly Islands were also returned to China along with Taiwan.


One major flaw in this stupid argument. Prior to the imperialist Japanese's invasion, Spratlys rightfully belongs to Vietnam, thus after their defeat it must be returned to Vietnam, not Taiwan. You seem to bring up anything that could back up your claim despite how dumb the argument is.
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blank book
post Jun 28 2004, 06:09 PM
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Lets stay on topic and not turn another seemingly legitimate thread into a flame war.
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Byron
post Jun 28 2004, 06:18 PM
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I'm just pissed about the Paracels. It's Vietnam's territory and China knows it and invaded because there was a rumour that there was oil(and if the reports are right, lots of oil has been discovered as well).

Vietnam still claims the Paracel islands, it should be given back to Vietnam, imperialist China.

China has disputes with Vietnam,Soviet Union,Japan, and SEA countries.

What is the next claim that China is gonna make China thinks belongs to her? Portugal? Yeah watch China claim Portugal is legitimately Chinese territory next.

This post has been edited by Byron: Jun 28 2004, 06:18 PM
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Nam Quoc Son Ha
post Jun 28 2004, 06:23 PM
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QUOTE (Byron @ Jun 28 2004, 07:18 PM)
I'm just pissed about the Paracels. It's Vietnam's territory and China knows it and invaded because there was a rumour that there was oil(and if the reports are right, lots of oil has been discovered as well).

Vietnam still claims the Paracel islands, it should be given back to Vietnam, imperialist China.

China has disputes with Vietnam,Soviet Union,Japan, and SEA countries.

What is the next claim that China is gonna make China thinks belongs to her? Portugal? Yeah watch China claim Portugal is legitimately Chinese territory next.

If China keeps behaving like this, it will find that most of not all of her neighbours will turn against her. Might does not make it right.
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