Huns: The Ancestors of the Mongols Options

[JuMong]

Ahh, the Nomadic lifestyle

For many decades the study of ancient history of Mongols was subject to ideological directives and politics. And therefore, with the removal of political and ideological restraints after political reforms of 1990, archeology now experiences a boom.

One of the hottest areas is the history of Hunnu, a nomadic tribe that ruled the vast stretches of Central Asian steppes and forced China to go into extreme effort of building the Great China wall in attempt to protect against devastating raids.

The name of Atilla, the Hunnu king who led his men all the way to the walls of Rome and destroyed it to the horror of the Europe an nations probably rings a bell.

Hunnus become known around I-III centuries B.C., around the time armies of Greek Alexander the Great launched their offense against Persia and India.
Felt made carpet found in a Hunnu king graveyard in 1924

The Hunnu kingdom stretched from Baikal Lake in the north to Great Chinese Wall in south, from Yellow Sea to the oases of Central Asia.

The state, ruled by a king or Shanyu elected by assembly of all tribe chieftains- khurultai, was built on the principle of military democracy under which all the nomadic herders were warriors and subjects at the same time.

Chinese historical records noted that each autumn all men and cattle were counted to decide the amount of taxes and army subscripts.

Hunnu army was based on decimal system and was well armed. Rock paintings from that period depict armored knights and horses protected with aprons embroidered with metal plates.

Hunnu domesticated various animals including camels and grew crops. Inside graveyards corn grindstone and parts of plough prove that their grew crops.


Hunnu knew metal works as the amazing number variety of their arms suggest. Each and very Hunnu warrior had various arms for close and distance combat. Plenty of bronze and potter kitchenware proves that Hunnu had well developed craftsmen.

The decline of Hunnu empire began in the first century B.C. starting from the rivalry of two princes, Huhan’e and Zhizhi. After several major battles the younger brother fled, leading his men to West, towards the Caspian Sea.

500 years later, their descendants migrated further reaching Dunai River and setting up own kingdom headed by Atilla.

The remaining and weakened Hunnu fell under the repeated assaults of a neighboring nomadic tribe, Xianbi, which appeared on the eastern flanks of the Hunnu empire.

Recent research suggests that Hunnu did not differ much from modern Mongols in their appearance and may represent their ancestors.

Anthropological studies show that the Mongoloid race or Central Asian type was already well shaped by the time of Hunnu.

This a final conclusion made by Prof. G.Tumen, Chair of the Anthropology and Archeology of the Mongolian National University, after more than 30 years of comparative study of skulls from Stone Age to modern times.

DNA analysis also proved the consistency of genetic lines between Hunnu and modern Mongols. This scientific conclusion implies that Atilla the Hun was indeed an ancestor of Chinggis Khaan.

http://www.mongoliatoday.com/issue/8/hunnu.html

[Subotai]

I would have thought the khurultai was assembled by Chinggis, millenias after the Huns. Supremely heavy cavalry wasn't used in eastern battlefields either ESPECIALLY on the steppes where the nomad archer reigns supreme (renders heavy cavalry pretty much useless). Lightly armoured and fast lancers were common but not heavy knights unless the battle is fought on European soil where such armor would actually find its use.

Interesting source though, but now it's getting confusing

[tujue]

the only heavy cavalary at that time were the samaritans or scytians in CA.

they didn't use the decimal system they introduced it

It is called Tumen and it is still used in modernday millitary.

than agaian The huns were not a single ethnic group or Tribe It was a confederation with various Tribes like the Altaic nomads and even some of the indo-european nomads.

[Subotai]

The article is fu-ked

[JuMong]

The Xiongnu's were Mongols:



The Xiongnu (Chinese: 匈奴; Pinyin: Xiōngnú; Wade-Giles: Hsiung-nu); were a nomadic people from Central Asia, generally based in present day Mongolia and China. From the 3rd century BC they controlled a vast steppe empire extending west as far as the Caucasus. They were active in the areas of southern Siberia, western Manchuria and the modern Chinese provinces of Inner Mongolia, Gansu and Xinjiang. Very ancient (perhaps legendary) historic Chinese records say that the Xiongnu descended from a son of the final ruler of China's first dynasty (Xia Dynasty), the remnants of which were believed by the Chinese of the Spring and Autumn Period to be the people of the state of Qǐ (杞). However, due to internal differences and strife, the Xiongnu fled north and north-west.

Relations between the Han Chinese and the Xiongnu were complicated and included military conflict, exchanges in tribute and trade, and marriage treaties.

The overwhelming amount of information on the Xiongnu comes from Chinese sources. What little is known of their titles and names come from Chinese transliterations. Only about 20 words belonging to the Altaic languages are known[1], and only a single sentence from Chinese documents.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiongnu

[tujue]

^ At that tim the mongolian Tribes didn't lived in Mongolia but nortehrn Manchuria well modern day

[MING-LOYALIST]

The Xiongnu's were Mongols:

Not quite, their names and language don't match. I don't think even one xiongnu name can be matched to mongols.
The xiongnu were absorbed by others and became extinct.

[tujue]

they match with my language and names pretty nice ha?

so said in persian/chinese/european records but you can never be sure

[Dark_Goku]

The Magyars (which is what the Huns called themselves) are not related to Mongolians.

Huns are the ancestors of the Hungarians as shown in this map.



They are related to Finns, Estonians, and Karelians, but they are more closer related to the Khanty and the Mansi.

Khanty



Mansi




This is what present-day Huns look like.





That might have been what they had looked like when they were under the command of Attila.

[tujue]

The Huns were an early confederation of Central Asian equestrian nomads or semi-nomads with a Turkic speaking aristocracy [1]. Some of these Eurasian tribes moved into Europe in the 4th and 5th centuries, most famously under Attila the Hun. Huns remaining in Asia are recorded by neighboring peoples to the south, east, and west as having occupied Central Asia roughly from the 4th century to the 6th century, with some surviving in the Caucasus until the early 8th century


Xiongnu

[MrShao]

The Xiongnu's were Mongols:
The Xiongnu (Chinese: 匈奴; Pinyin: Xiōngnú; Wade-Giles: Hsiung-nu); were a nomadic people from Central Asia, generally based in present day Mongolia and China. From the 3rd century BC they controlled a vast steppe empire extending west as far as the Caucasus. They were active in the areas of southern Siberia, western Manchuria and the modern Chinese provinces of Inner Mongolia, Gansu and Xinjiang. Very ancient (perhaps legendary) historic Chinese records say that the Xiongnu descended from a son of the final ruler of China's first dynasty (Xia Dynasty), the remnants of which were believed by the Chinese of the Spring and Autumn Period to be the people of the state of Qǐ (杞). However, due to internal differences and strife, the Xiongnu fled north and north-west.

Relations between the Han Chinese and the Xiongnu were complicated and included military conflict, exchanges in tribute and trade, and marriage treaties.

The overwhelming amount of information on the Xiongnu comes from Chinese sources. What little is known of their titles and names come from Chinese transliterations. Only about 20 words belonging to the Altaic languages are known[1], and only a single sentence from Chinese documents.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiongnu

Chinese history books (in antiquity) are exclusively sinocentric. Every ancient dynastic founder was portrayed as a hire of earlier handful of Chinese sage kings. No wander it says Xiongnus are from Chinese Xia dynasty. It works like a formula because Chinese practice ancestor worshipping. This unique type of historical recording even influences the ancient Korean historians. That’s why Korean history is also Sage-king based. Of course much of the historical disputes exploded between Chinese and Korean are about these Sage Kings because they used the same formula I spoke the early. As a result, Chinese see Korean used their Sage Kings, and Korean view Chinese stuffs are very Korean. I hope Mongolian folks don’t buy into this Chinese formula.

[RegularAsianGuy]

Chinese history books (in antiquity) are exclusively sinocentric. Every ancient dynastic founder was portrayed as a hire of earlier handful of Chinese sage kings. No wander it says Xiongnus are from Chinese Xia dynasty. It works like a formula because Chinese practice ancestor worshipping. This unique type of historical recording even influences the ancient Korean historians. That’s why Korean history is also Sage-king based. Of course much of the historical disputes exploded between Chinese and Korean are about these Sage Kings because they used the same formula I spoke the early. As a result, Chinese see Korean used their Sage Kings, and Korean view Chinese stuffs are very Korean. I hope Mongolian folks don’t buy into this Chinese formula.

chinese is not a singular ethnic tribe or group , but compromised of many. In the past history china was nothing more than a map of warring factions/groups , and whoever was in control was the "main chinese". China in chinese literally translates to middle kingdom , the center territory of the world. People who don't understand this often get confused when they talk about chinese peoples and history.

This post has been edited by RegularAsianGuy: Dec 14 2007, 06:42 PM

[dude543]

the military units of the hun empire were known as tarkans right? the horse dudes

[tujue]

Tarqan means Hero. Just that nothing more nothing less


Edit: AOE games aren't 100% correct

This post has been edited by tujue: Dec 25 2007, 02:05 PM

[juilikingdom]

The Xiongnu's were Mongols:
The Xiongnu (Chinese: 匈奴; Pinyin: Xiōngnú; Wade-Giles: Hsiung-nu); were a nomadic people from Central Asia, generally based in present day Mongolia and China. From the 3rd century BC they controlled a vast steppe empire extending west as far as the Caucasus. They were active in the areas of southern Siberia, western Manchuria and the modern Chinese provinces of Inner Mongolia, Gansu and Xinjiang. Very ancient (perhaps legendary) historic Chinese records say that the Xiongnu descended from a son of the final ruler of China's first dynasty (Xia Dynasty), the remnants of which were believed by the Chinese of the Spring and Autumn Period to be the people of the state of Qǐ (杞). However, due to internal differences and strife, the Xiongnu fled north and north-west.

Relations between the Han Chinese and the Xiongnu were complicated and included military conflict, exchanges in tribute and trade, and marriage treaties.

The overwhelming amount of information on the Xiongnu comes from Chinese sources. What little is known of their titles and names come from Chinese transliterations. Only about 20 words belonging to the Altaic languages are known[1], and only a single sentence from Chinese documents.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiongnu

the xiongnu or huns are not mongols! wtf are you talking about? xiongnu are from china and moved north to the steppe near mongolia...history, scholars, and articles even confirm that xiongnu were made up of several chinese chiefs and moved north so there's no way xiongnu can be mongols....as far as I know they were a group of miao or yi as confirmed by some scholars.

[tujue]

unlike you guys & me this guy studied at an university for this stuff


Xiongnu Empire

[DutchEastIndiesM...]

didn't the Huns migrated to Europe... ??? well most of them...
correct me if I'm wrong.

[Subotai]

@DutchIndiesMan

The Magyar tribes migrated to Hungary yes, raiding and pillaging before Europe turned their attention to them and threatened them with annihilation. They christenised and founded the nation of Hungary, after their ancestor the Huns. Hungarian kings are also said to be descendant from Attila. They were known as fierce warriors throughout Europe, one Hungarian brother also told me that at that time Europeans had a saying during duels; 'fight like a Hungarian' - out of respect of the steppe warriors.

They were not descendants of Mongols until we invaded in the 13th century, and during this time the Hungarians realised that western european ways were inferior in stopping our invasion. During the battle of Mohi, the Hungarian king raised his sword up and asked his soldiers to remember their roots from Central Asia, their roots as fierce nomadic warriors. They fought hard in this battle, and I am proud of my Hungarian brothers though defeated (in fact we almost lost!) - to have made their stand bravely. Their country was devastated however after that, but when we withdrew the Hungarian King built mighty fortifications to stop our future invasions. We were disunited when we next tried to invade, and though the king did flee from Mohi - he is still regarded as a hero because he rebuilt his country.

In modern times Hungarians have no ill feelings towards us. They claim descendence from us, and for me - when I associate with them, I feel an interesting sense of brotherhood as we all came from the same roots in the end, and both our cultures have left a mark in history. My first girlfriend who although was considered white Australian - her ancestry was Hungarian.

[DutchEastIndiesM...]

@DutchIndiesMan

The Magyar tribes migrated to Hungary yes, raiding and pillaging before Europe turned their attention to them and threatened them with annihilation. They christenised and founded the nation of Hungary, after their ancestor the Huns. Hungarian kings are also said to be descendant from Attila. They were known as fierce warriors throughout Europe, one Hungarian brother also told me that at that time Europeans had a saying during duels; 'fight like a Hungarian' - out of respect of the steppe warriors.

They were not descendants of Mongols until we invaded in the 13th century, and during this time the Hungarians realised that western european ways were inferior in stopping our invasion. During the battle of Mohi, the Hungarian king raised his sword up and asked his soldiers to remember their roots from Central Asia, their roots as fierce nomadic warriors. They fought hard in this battle, and I am proud of my Hungarian brothers though defeated (in fact we almost lost!) - to have made their stand bravely. Their country was devastated however after that, but when we withdrew the Hungarian King built mighty fortifications to stop our future invasions. We were disunited when we next tried to invade, and though the king did flee from Mohi - he is still regarded as a hero because he rebuilt his country.

In modern times Hungarians have no ill feelings towards us. They claim descendence from us, and for me - when I associate with them, I feel an interesting sense of brotherhood as we all came from the same roots in the end, and both our cultures have left a mark in history. My first girlfriend who although was considered white Australian - her ancestry was Hungarian.

ohh ok yeah thx for that....I already knew the story about Hungary but didn't know it relates with what we are talking.

[Subotai]

The Huns settled in the Danube river (Modern day Hungary), lands tributed by the Eastern Roman Empire, it wasn't until Western Roman princess Honoria asked for Attila's hand in marriage that the Huns pushed westward. They defeated the Western Roman armies in modern day France then pushed south to invade Italy - just stopping outside Rome. He didn't take Rome for some reason however, and died on the way back to Hungary. After this the Huns in europe were wiped out from history books until the Magyars took up their name as Hungarians.

This post has been edited by Subotai: Mar 23 2008, 06:31 AM