What do Indonesian surnames say abt their lineage? Options

[tangawizi]

I found this thread in the Thai Chat extremely interesting... someone is saying that the shorter the surname, the more of a higher status they are in the Thai society....or in actual fact, the shorter the surname the more native they are. Which means many chinese thais tend to have seriously long surnames as they are trying to assimilate to the Thai society.. is that more or less the same also in Indonesia??

This post has been edited by tangawizi: Jun 22 2007, 12:32 AM

[Bhaskara]

Err... Surnames mean different things to different ethnicities in Indonesia. For example, surnames of Bataks ethnicities are actually clan names, from which they can trace their lineage back to the tribal times. Most of the times, people can tell your ethnicity just by looking into the surnames. If you are Pasaribu, Sitinjak, Hasibuan, you are a batak. If you are Sahanaya, Lawalata then you are a Manadonese. If you are Mallarangeng, you are a Makasaresse/Buginese.

Clan names are especially unique for Minang people as children belongs to their mother's clan and the father is the only one in a nuclear family with a different clan.

Most Indonesians, however, are Javanese. Javanese doesn't have a tradition of surnames. Some Javanese surnames that you can find usually belong to the noble-blooded people only. There are a lot of ethnicities whose traditions doesn't require surnames either (such as Malay, Sundanese, etc). And Indonesian law doesn't require citizens to have one either.

Sooo.... if you're asking about Chinese-Indonesians, they are not required to have surname either. Some of them do, some just don't feel the need to have one. Some who decided to have Indonesian surnames, though, carefully thought their surnames so they are both meaningful and more often than not, contained their Chinese surname. For example, someone with Chinese surname of "Tam" would choose to have "Tamrin" as his/her surname. Or "Lim" in "Salim", "Ko" in Kohandi, "Chan" in "Chandrawinata", etc.

[singapak2]

Sooo.... if you're asking about Chinese-Indonesians, they are not required to have surname either. Some of them do, some just don't feel the need to have one. Some who decided to have Indonesian surnames, though, carefully thought their surnames so they are both meaningful and more often than not, contained their Chinese surname. For example, someone with Chinese surname of "Tam" would choose to have "Tamrin" as his/her surname. Or "Lim" in "Salim", "Ko" in Kohandi, "Chan" in "Chandrawinata", etc.

Really?? I know abt the Indo celebs like the Miss Indonesia.. she's Nadine Chandrawinata but she's not Chinese. She's Indo-German.

My Chinese Indonesian friend have surnames like Chadra... so their chinese surname Cha, Dra?? lolx.. Jaspadi... Jas, Pa, Di, Padi?? lolz.

dont sound chinese at all..

[han2]

Really?? I know abt the Indo celebs like the Miss Indonesia.. she's Nadine Chandrawinata but she's not Chinese. She's Indo-German.

My Chinese Indonesian friend have surnames like Chadra... so their chinese surname Cha, Dra?? lolx.. Jaspadi... Jas, Pa, Di, Padi?? lolz.

dont sound chinese at all..

Nadine Chandrawinata (born May 8, 1984 in Hannover, Germany) was Puteri Indonesia (Miss Indonesia Universe) 2005, and a delegate representing Indonesia in the 2006 Miss Universe Pageant. She was the second Miss Indonesia to participate in the pageant (preceded by Artika Sari Devi) after a long hiatus in 1996. Her mother is German and her father is Chinese-Indonesian.

here's the link:

Nadine Chandrawinata

hope this helps...

[singapak2]

ok. But my other pure Indo Chinese friends have surnames like Jaspadi, Andra, Agustin, ??????sono, Wijaya(Chinese and Native), Winata...

But those surnames dont sound Chinese. 2 friends with Wijaya as surnames. One is a pure Chinese. Another is a pure Native.

Bye!

[Majapahitans]

In ancient Indonesia people with higher status often had long sanskirt origin name
Pramodhawardhani (Syailendran Princess)
Sri Isyana Tunggawisesa (Isyana King)
Mahendradatta Gunapriyadarmapatni (Balinese Queen)
Dharmodayana Warmadewa (Balinese King)
Tribhuwanottunggadewi Jayawishnuwardhani (Majapahit Queen)
Gayatri Rajapatni (Majapahit Queen)

Oh yeah, higher status Javanese female usually using ending:
"i" like Retno Pudjiastuti, Dewi Sulastri
"um" Ayu Kusumaningrum
"un" Sekar Pembayun

But lower status Javanese women using ending:
"em" Tukiyem, Sariyem, Lasiyem

Oh yeah..., Chinese Indonesian that adopted Indonesian name often using Javanese name or Christian name, but often with Sundanese way of spelling (with "a" not "o"), Gunawan, Setiawan, Waluya, Wijaya, Tanujaya, Kusuma is popular chinese Indonesian name. Often they like to use noble names that sounds really like the name of Sundanese nobles families or descendants of ancient royalties, you know with that "nata" ending. Tommy Winata, Christian Hadinata, etc.
The worst thing is, this chinese Indonesian trends make my real name sounds like I was chinese Indonesian, coz my first name is popular among Javanese or Chinese Indonesian, and my family name has "nata" ending..... although I was native.....

This post has been edited by Majapahitans: Jun 22 2007, 01:24 PM

[pencakarlangit]

I've read somewhere where during suharto era, chinese indonesian must not have a chinese name..they have to change their name that sounds more like indonesian name..for example, 'Lim'(a chinese name) is changed to 'Halim'..something like that I think..and also even all the shops there must have names that sound indonesian.

[Bhaskara]

@majjy: We're talking about surnames here! Focus, focus!!!

@singapak2: Like what I've said earlier, some of them doesn't bother to have Indonesian surname. "Andra" and "Agustin"? Those are not surnames!!! Indonesian who has second, third, fourth, hundredth name even, doesn't necessarily means s/he has a surname. For example: Susi Susanti. "Susanti" is not her surname! Or Kris Dayanti, "Dayanti" is not her surname either! Glen Fredly, God help me, "Fredly" is not definitely his surname!

@pencakarlangit: Indeed, in Suharto's era, Chinese-Indonesians had to take non-Chinese names due to our sour relationship with communist China at that time. I say non-Chinese, because other names are okay (you name it: Christian, Gaelic, Greek, Arabic, Japanese, etc). So in previous era, if someone had a Chinese name, there's a high possibility that he/she was not a citizen of Indonesia.

In surnames' case, though. The government of Indonesia never asks its citizen to have any. So event hough Chinese-Indonesians took names that familiar to Indonesians, surnames are only optional. Susi Susanti is a perfect example, both "Susi" and "Susanti" are given names, none of them is a surname.

[Majapahitans]

@majjy: We're talking about surnames here! Focus, focus!!!

Heey, at first Tanga talk about long or short name, then the surname. (btw, I have one)
I also talk about how chinese Indonesian adopt noble Javanese-Sundanese surname/family name; you know that "nata" things, Tommy Winata, Christian Hadinata, etc.... very similar to my surname.....

[tangawizi]

Thx guys, so it seems that we can summarise as follows :

1. surnames are not used in Indonesia ... and

2. contrary to the Thai custom, the longer one's name is in Indonesia, the more likelihood of noble blood connection there is.. especially with name suffixes llike 'um', 'i' or 'un'.

3. Lower status suffix is 'em'.

4. While chiinese name suffixes tend to be 'wan' or 'nata'

If Indonesian names do not have surnames, howabout the chinese-indonesians? what happened to their original surnames? don't they keep the clan or family surname intact in the conversion of their names to bahasa??

[Bhaskara]

Tangyyy.... I've already explained those points!

1. Surnames are used in Indonesia, but not all of us have them, and the government doesn't require us to have one either. But for those who do have them (like Bataks, Manadonese, some Chinese,etc) wear them proudly.

2. Yeah, something like that. But not always.

3. Same as the above, not always.

4. Not only those suffixes. Like I was saying before, those who have Indonesian surnames incorporated their Chinese surname onto their Indonesian surname.

Examples:
Chinese Surname = Indonesian Surname
Tan = Tanujaya
Lim = Salim
Chan = Chandrawinata

Those are how Chinese Indonesians typically create their Indonesian Surname. Example: Lim Sieo Liong became Sudono Salim.

So, relating to the issue of surnames, there are at least 3 types of Chinese Indonesians:
1. Those who adopt Indonesian name and doesn't care about taking any surnames. Example: Susi Susanti, where Susanti is not a surname.
2. Those who incorporate their Chinese surname onto their Indonesian surname. Example: Sudono Salim, where Salim is derived from Lim.
3. Those who keep their original Chinese surname. Example: Ivana Lie.

[tangawizi]

so Bhas, can we same the same for Indonesia as in the Thai surnames that are short and therefore more authentic? That those indonesian folks like Ivana Lie is more chinese than say Susi Susanti or Agnes Monica?

[Bhaskara]

The answer is no, and no.
1. No, because AFAIK, a surname can be as short or as long as it can be, and all it can give you is the information of the clan they are representing.

2. No, because surnames got nothing to do with the way you interact with your surrounding. I know for real someone with the last name Setianegara (which means "loyal to the country"), yet he is very Chinese-minded. Compare this to Soe Hok Gie, even with his Chinese name he was more of a nationalist than most of the people who call themselves as "native Indonesians".

Of course the opposite might also be true. Like the guy that we love and adore here in AF, purnomor who is a Hokkien/Hakka, and a die-hard nationalist.
Where are you, dude? I miss you!

[peculiar-alien]

Thx guys, so it seems that we can summarise as follows
3. Lower status suffix is 'em'.

i think Madja explained it generally....village people usually have name ended with "em" but it doesnt mean they have lower status, yes, most of them are poor but it doesnt mean they name their children with suffix "em" because they're poor...its just the mater of culture....their ancestor use that kinda name so they use it...is that right majja?

CMIIW,people in some provinces put royal symbol in their name too...like Tengku in Riau or Raden in Java...

[Bhaskara]

I agree with you on the 1st point, peccy. I feel sad that nowadays people avoid altogether using that kind of names, when in reality it's that kind of names which are "truly "Indonesia".

And for the second paragraph of yours.... those are not surnames, those are titles!!! I'm gonna have to ban you!!!

[singapak2]

I have a Singaporean Malay(Bugis ethnic) who has a name star with Daing... everyone in her family have the name.
My grandpa has Syed as the first name and everyone in his family have it.

But lots of people call Syed, Daing, Tengku etc as family names..

[Bhaskara]

Those are actually titles.... not all of those who have "Teuku" in front of their names are related, d'uh!
Actually this discussion doesn't belong here. But in Aceh, Teuku is a noble title for men (Cut Nyak for women, I think), while Tengku is the title for clerics (ulama). Tengku is also used in Malay Riau if I'm not mistaken, and it's used by both women and men.

We have lots and lots of titles in Indonesia, each ethnicity have sets of their own. South Sulawesi, the homeland of Buginese and Makassarese have titles such as Daeng (Makassarese, for men) and Andi (Buginese, both women and men). Ever heard of Andi Meriam Matalatta or Andi Mallarangeng? Andi is their title, and Matalatta and Mallarangeng are their surnames.

[singapak2]

Laden is a father's name... lolx..

[Bhaskara]

Yeah, it annoys me when western people think use "Bin..." as they were surnames. "Mr. Bin Ladin, please shave your beard"

Oh yeah, I know that Muslim Malaysians male use "Bin" (son of), and the female use "Bte". What "Bte" stands for? In Indonesia, we would only know it by "Binti" (daughter of, I presume).

[purple]

my grandfather has a surname, except my mother uses her father's first name as her surname. why?

would it be for reasons like muslim malays and their use of 'binti' and 'bin'?