Chinese allies VS American Allies Options

[d2e]

when did Pakistan became ally of china? they are ally of America, and American military base is also over there.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...icle5762371.ece

This post has been edited by d2e: Oct 10 2009, 12:14 PM

[Titanium]

YAY to revising old threads

But seriously, what BOA said is correct. Technology was not the only factor that gave Japan an advantage over China. China was extremely divided and flat out corrupt during that time period. Some officers even collaborated with the Japanese. China's worst enemy throughout history has always been herself. This is why unification in China is held in such high-regard. A unified strong China is unstoppable, a divided weak and corrupt China may as well be a big piece of meat in a cage filled with lions.

[African]

Hey guys the whole of Africa would back China particularly Kenya, Zimbabwe, Sudan, Libya, Guinea, Senegal,Eritrea, Angola and the rest would also contribute heavily. Only S.Africa, Ghana and Botswana would not be willing to support.

[Red Fox Ace]

I see no reason that any other country would get involved in a US vs. China war, with the faint possibility of *perhaps* Japan and South or North Korea. Everybody else would just sit out on the sidelines, or do things behind the scenes.

[salamat]

The US airforce can use the Philippines to stage airstikes on China's coast..and to use as a naval base to gain stategic position over the Southern CHina Sea

This post has been edited by salamat: Oct 13 2009, 10:47 AM

[Made in China]

How did US invade a landlocked nation like Afghanistan?

Through Pakistan... and Airforce bases located in Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan (borat!)

Even Russia has allowed clearance for US military hardware to be shipped from the Baltics to Afghanistan (US envoy via train through Russian territory)

Also Pakistan has allowed NATO envoy to go through Karachi or Islamabad to Afghanistan.

This sort of clout that US and NATO is unrivaled. I don't see China rivalling the US military hegemony anytime soon.

This post has been edited by Made in China: Oct 13 2009, 10:56 AM

[Red Fox Ace]

The US airforce can use the Philippines to stage airstikes on China's coast

Why wouldn't they just use B-2s staging out of Guam and Diego Garcia?

[Sampanviking]

I see no reason that any other country would get involved in a US vs. China war, with the faint possibility of *perhaps* Japan and South or North Korea. Everybody else would just sit out on the sidelines, or do things behind the scenes.

Read your history books Red Fox. All major wars start as small or local wars. When the big boys become preoccupied the smaller boys take the opportunity to settle scores with each other. Hence if two major powers get into a war all the surrounding countries start their own campaigns which creates a patchwork of local wars. As these wars spread or as the various sides start to support each other against rival camps, the wars wien, intensify and finally join up into major conflagrations.

[Made in China]

Even relations between socialist nations haven't been very good.

Sino-Vietnamese war was a result of small local proxy war between Soviet union and China started by socialist Vietnam's invasion of Cambodia (Pol Pot supported by Mao) in an attempt to gain influence over socialist Laos (and greater Indo-China as a whole) and align herself with the Soviet juggernaut....

Even socialist nations had really bad beef with each other. Soviet Union and China broke off their 25 year alliance just when China invaded Vietnam (which then signed an 30 year alliance with Soviet union)

China doesn't need any allies. haha

[antistormfront]

interesting definition of rogue nations!

I believe SCO and NK are the only formal military allies.

All these alliances are defensive in nature. NATO is the only alliance that can get together to attack somebody, but they are only in Europe not in Asia. China is not going to bomb Haiwaii, so USA is not going to get its allies activated due to treaty requirements. Remember it's USA that has hostile designs in Asia. If Chinese mainland is attacked SCO and North Korea will certainly help out. Very importantly SCO can keep China supplies with essential war materials. North Korea can keep the southern part fearful of pitching in. The other nice thing about NK is the they have the i'm-unpredictable-i-can-randomly-hit-nuke-button threat.

Anyway no one has said what will the fight be about, which is most important for determining which allies will come into play.


I think it would be good for China to ally with Serbia, not because Serbia can fight China's war but because it strengthens the alliance with Russia. It also gives China a foothold in Europe which we currently lack. I'd love to see Chinese spy planes being harassed outside Televiv Also the more allies you have the more USA interests are threatened. For instance if USA attacked China over Taiwan, the Serbian ally can now legally overrun the US base in Kosovo, which they are just itching to do in the first place.

The United States is not going to attack China because it would involve massacring the Chinese people by the billions, something which, considering the endless, belligerent talk spewing from China, would have already been done if the US wanted to.

The US has not used its space-based nuclear missiles, against which China could never respond quickly enough, because the US will let Taiwan defend itself with its own nuclear weapons against China if such a foolish move were ever to occur.

Taiwan has superior technology to the Chinese, meaning their nuclear missiles would be more accurate than the PRC would be able to deal with.

PRC leaders leave Taiwan alone because they are not so foolish as to think that Taiwan does not already possess, itself, adequate submarine-based nuclear missiles to protect its sovereignty and independence.

Talks of American empires or allies and attacking China are for the foolish and weak minded who lack the sophistication to be equal citizens of the world. Mercantilistic Empires only poison their own people in the psychologically insecure pursuit to try and feel superior (and therefore finally adequate enough).

[Made in China]

United States and China cannot go to war... A 10% depreciation in the value of US dollar would wipe several years of Chinese growth in an instant (as China is the largest holder of US currency).

Both are economically interdependent on each other. It would be insane for them to go to war. China will continue to liberalize under the status quo. Once China reaches Taiwanese status, *maybe* Taiwan will be reunited peacefully under the S.A.R. model (a la HK/Macau).

Hopefully Tibet would be made into a S.A.R. with Dalai Lama as a subordinate to CCP but retains "high autonomy" basically equal to a sovereign state minus diplomatic recognition and military defense.

This post has been edited by Made in China: Oct 16 2009, 07:06 PM

[CharlesDarwin]

Hopefully Tibet would be made into a S.A.R. with Dalai Lama as a subordinate to CCP

The Central government exempts Tibet from all taxation and provides 90% of Tibet's government expenditures. Tibet will never have real autonomy, they will always need help from central government because of Tibet geography, to build schools, roads... is very expensive there.

[Machiavelli]

First, China doesn't really have allies, it's sort of a loner. Second, those are some undependable "allies", as is China vice versa, i.e. China won't go to all out war with India over Pakistan, but will gladly use the latter as a proxy, fight India to the last Pakistani they say. Other "allies" would either fold quick or not even get involve if things were to really get hostile with the USA/NATO. All of this doesn't really matter anyways, any major war between the USA and China would eventually go nuclear. Game Over, who ever stayed out wins, or not, depending on the level of global fallout..

This post has been edited by Machiavelli: Oct 20 2009, 02:49 AM

[Made in China]

There will never be nuclear war.

MacArthur threatened to nuke Chinese cities before and Eisenhower fired him. He was the highest ranking general in the Korean war yet he was fired for defying commands to nuke China.

China-US war will never escalate to nuclear weapons. There will be cease fire negotiations or some sort of peace agreement before anything of that sort happens.

The Central government exempts Tibet from all taxation and provides 90% of Tibet's government expenditures. Tibet will never have real autonomy, they will always need help from central government because of Tibet geography, to build schools, roads... is very expensive there.

Your missing the point. Tibetans want to rule themselves (which is completely understandable). They would rather the Chinese not be in their land and territory and would rather live in poverty than be ruled by a communist regime that kicked out their Dalai Lama.

Restore Dalai Lama and Tibet under the SAR model. Tibetan rule Tibetans, CCP retains sovereignty over Tibet with little to zero interference with the Tibet SAR government outside of military defense and diplomatic affairs.

What can go wrong? CCP doesn't have to tax nor pay for anything in Tibet. (Isn't like half the population Han chinese in Tibet (as a means of assimilating the Tibet region into Chinese rule))

This post has been edited by Made in China: Oct 22 2009, 07:52 PM

[Made in China]

Yes CCP is paying a lot for Tibetan modernization and renewal into a more "update" society.

Wouldn't life in poverty be worse for the Tibetans?

Defenders of slavery imposed on black Africans often made a similar point.

"The life of freedom is preferred"

If the Chinese are unable to see this or understand this, the they are making themselves in a true laughing stock of the international community. I'd rather Pro-China supporters just be quiet rather than to justify why Tibet shouldn't be part of China.

This post has been edited by Made in China: Oct 22 2009, 09:36 PM

[BurdenOfAges]

I think almost everyone can agree that they'd rather be free than in bondage, given the two choices in a vacuum. The problem is, there is a price to freedom, and in China this price can, ironically, lead to even more bondage.

The Chinese remember the times when their country was fractured, and how foreign peoples were able to take advantage of this division to sweep in and impose their rule upon China. The "freedom" that Chinese rebels and warlords desired in opposing the imperial court were ultimately traded for bondage of a different sort - only this time, to non-Chinese. This is likely a fate that every Chinese nationalist and CCP supporter has in mind when they oppose separatism in China.

As for your suggestions, I think that there are several subtle but vital disagreements between the TGIE (Tibetan government-in-exile) and Beijing. For one thing, the Dalai Lama seems to want autonomy for all of "Greater Tibet," which he defines as a vast stretch of land from almost all of Qinghai to western Sichuan, or about 1/4th of China's territory:



If the CCP grants this, then the Uyghurs would almost certainly demand the same thing for the whole of Xinjiang, and if they are granted this, then the Mongols, the Manchus, the Zhuangs, the Miaos, the Yis, etc. would probably follow suit. China, in this situation, cannot hope to maintain central power for long. It would have to become a confederation, of sorts, and this may eventually lead to breakup as the ethnic solidarity of Asian peoples tend to be very strong and very exclusive - look at the Koreans, Vietnamese, Japanese, and even Taiwanese. Given that ethnic minorities live upon almost 60% of China's present territory, this would lead to a massive problem.

Indeed, after just a few decades of flagrant de-centralization, new national identities might develop, even within the Han super-ethnicity (Guangdong nationalism, Shanghai nationalism, Fujian nationalism, etc.) None of this is an issue in Western thinking. In fact, this is concordant with both Western ideology and geo-strategy: the former because it jives well with the post-colonial attitudes of Western morality, the latter because smaller countries are easier to divide and exploit. In fact, strategists such as George Friedman of Stratfor predicts that in such a situation, not only Western countries but Eastern countries like Japan would be quick to take advantage of chaos in China to push their own interests in the country.

This is the scenario that the CCP is trying to prevent, I think, and given Chinese history one can partly understand their seeming paranoia. Of course, it is the same scenario that many Asian peoples living in the shadow of the Chinese Empire have historically desired. In this, we can see a fundamental conflict of interests.

This post has been edited by BurdenOfAges: Oct 22 2009, 11:10 PM

[CharlesDarwin]

BurdenOfAges,

in Qinghai Tibetans are only 20% of the population, so even under democracy they can do nothing.

[CharlesDarwin]

Your missing the point. Tibetans want to rule themselves

And?

There is a lot of separatists around the world, but most autonomist and secessionist movements are not tolerated by the countries under which they live.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_activ...onist_movements

[popeye]

[quote name='Made in China' date='Oct 16 2009, 07:04 PM' post='4353974']
United States and China cannot go to war... A 10% depreciation in the value of US dollar would wipe several years of Chinese growth in an instant (as China is the largest holder of US currency).

Both are economically interdependent on each other. It would be insane for them to go to war. quote]

This is utter rubbish !...


China held $696 billion in U.S. Treasury debt as of Dec. 31 2008 , In August 31st 2009 , China held a mere $797 billion of US T-bills ; So a 10% drop in value is a MERE $70 Billion , spare change for China which they can recoup in just 3 months. Conversely , the same 10% drop in the USD would create a massive run on the dollar , & would wipe out US Treasury standing entirely, and destroy its printing press .


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...&refer=news

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-10...ent_8806729.htm

As for their economically interdependent on each other, this is again incorrect . The US exports almost nothing these days, when America goes down into a depression it will hardly raise a ripple anywhere else.

[DevineCarrier]

United States and China cannot go to war... A 10% depreciation in the value of US dollar would wipe several years of Chinese growth in an instant (as China is the largest holder of US currency).

Both are economically interdependent on each other. It would be insane for them to go to war. quote]

This is utter rubbish !...


China held $696 billion in U.S. Treasury debt as of Dec. 31 2008 , In August 31st 2009 , China held a mere $797 billion of US T-bills ; So a 10% drop in value is a MERE $70 Billion , spare change for China which they can recoup in just 3 months. Conversely , the same 10% drop in the USD would create a massive run on the dollar , & would wipe out US Treasury standing entirely, and destroy its printing press .


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...&refer=news

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-10...ent_8806729.htm

As for their economically interdependent on each other, this is again incorrect . The US exports almost nothing these days, when America goes down into a depression it will hardly raise a ripple anywhere else.

If America goes into depression wouldn't China's export tank though...since China's main export is to the US? That would mess up China's economy, I think.