The Kedah Kingdom, Let's have some fun discussing the history n origins of Kedah Options

[sonofgunongjerai]

Here is a trailer about Queen Langasuka which is released in Thailand..... I wonder we in Kedah can't reveal our side of history through films yet since we are not advance in filming technology.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2md9iUTNFFU...feature=related

[sonofgunongjerai]

I have found a bit on how Satun becoming a part of Southern Thailand territory. Satun or Setul was actually a part of Kedah before 18th century. Satun being converted into Thailand territory by a Kedahan royal family whose name is Ku Din Ku Meh. Here is his brief story:


Ku Din Ku Meh was born in Anak Bukit, Kedah around 1848. He started his career at 14 as Head of Kedah Prisons. Ku Din was a literary man, fluent in Malay and Thai.

He was known to have transcribed a book of laws in 1894. His diary and some jawi records pertaining to his administration in Setul (Satun) are now kept in the Thai National Archives in Bangkok. In 1897, Sultan Abdul Hamid Halim Shah of Kedah appointed him the High Commissioner of Setul. At the time, Setul, Kayang and Phuket were provinces of Kedah under the domination of Siam. Setul later became a part of southern Thailand under the Treaty of Bangkok in 1909.

Ku Din was highly regarded as an administrator, judging by the various advances which he introduced to Setul in the areas of administration, agriculture, trade and commerce, and education.

In 1902, Ku Din assumed the title 'Raja of Setul' and used the name Tengku Baharuddin bin Tunku Meh. During his time, the local ports of Setul traded actively with Rangoon and Penang. Ku Din himself owned several shipping vessels exporting goods such as birds' nests, timber and coconuts from south Thailand to Penang. Ku Din married a woman from Penang, and had his trading office in this town house on jalan Penang. The Siamese government retained Ku Din Ku Meh in his position until he retired in 1916. He passed away in 1932 and was entombed in Setul.

[sonofgunongjerai]

According to Pastor Joe Johnson of American Reformation Ministries, Cymmerians were an ancient Israelitish people, they were first mentioned by Homer in the ‘ODYSSEY’, XI, 13-19. According to Homer, the Cimmerians lived in a country of fog and darkness on the outskirts of the inhabited world.

The ancient historian Herodotus writes in his book, HISTORY, IV, 11-13, that the Cimmerians were the early inhabitants of southern Russia, then known as Scythia. Herodotus adds that the “Bosporus Cimmerius” (Kerch Strait) and numerous other geographical location are named after the Cimmerians, and this is corroborated by other ancient writers. Eventually they were driven from the Caucasus by the Scythians, their estranged Israelitish kinsmen. Assyrian sources referred to them as the Gimirrai. Greek records refer to these Gimira as "Kimmeroii" which is translated into English as "Cimmerian."

In the records of the Assyrians and the Greeks the Cimmerians are sometimes confused with their blood brothers the Scythians. None the less from these ancient official written records we learn of some notable Cimmerian exploits. It appears that the Kimmerians were a very warfare minded culture that thrived on raids and plundering of any other peoples within their reach and power to attack. Somewhere around 714 BC the Cimmerians assaulted Urartu, now known as Armenia. Incursion and raids were made on their former captors and overlords, the Assyrians.

Then in 705 BC, they were beaten in battle by the Assyrians, in spite of the fact that King Sargon II of Assyria was slain in the contest. The Cimmerians turned their attention to Asia Minor and seized Sinope on the Black sea. Next they defeated Midas and conquered Phrygia in 696 – 695 BC. In the year 679 BC King Esarhaddon of Assyria and his armies drove them back out of and across the Assyrian border. The Cimmerians invaded Lydia, capturing the capital city of Lydia in 652 BC.

They were eventually driven from Lydia by Alyattes in a series of battles sometime in between 637 to 626 BC. At this point many secular scholars claim that the Cimmerians simply disappeared from the stage of history; this of course is not true. Once again we find the true history of our Israelite ancestors by taking note of migrations to new frontiers and subsequent changes in the names they were known by. The Cimmerians moved into what is now known as Europe, and became known as Celts, Gauls and Cimbri, among other names of local clan or tribal groups.

The ancient Kimmerians inhabited the southern regions west of the Black Sea prior to the arrival in that area of their ancient kinsmen, the Scythians. It was these Scythian kinsmen, pushed by the Sarmations that uprooted and pushed the Cimmerians westward. The Cimmerians became commonly known as “Kelts” or “Celts” and “Gauls”. The Romans called them Gauls. Some small bands or clans of Cimmerians merged with some clans of Scythians and are labeled “Celto-Scythiae” by modern historians. However for the most part at this time in history the Cimmerian-Celts and their Scythian estranged kinsman were engaged in a war for territory and plunder. They did not consider each other as kinsmen, their common heritage and Israelite Identity having been temporarily lost and obscured from the memory and knowledge of the common man, or else rendered almost meaningless by the passions and anger of war.

[AwangPembela]

Just a caution. You need to need to be careful when reading from some Israelite or pro-Israelite writers. They have this great aptitude for linking so many ancient nations to ancient Israeli tribes.

If one is to take these category of writers at face value, then virtually all the leading nations of Europe today, as well as the American nation, are descended from the 12 Israelite tribes. I've just come across one who claims that Queen Elizabeth is descended from the tribe of Judah, n that Saxons r descended from Isaac (i.e. Sakh's Sons). These r just claims by writers with wild imaginations. Not facts supported by hard evidence.

Not being anti-Israelite. Just being sensible.

When you say that someone is Israelite (Bani Israel), what that means is that he's ultimately descended from one of the 12 sons of Jacob (Ya'akob), who according to Israelite legend changed his name to Israel the morning after an all-night wrestling session with a mysterious being who asked him his name when they finished.

As for Scythians, since they r descended from Scyth (Ishkuth/Ishkuz), a grandson of Magog (Ma'juj) n thereby a great great grandson of Noah, that level is way, way earlier before the level of Jacob (Ya'akob), who is a grandson of Abraham (Ibrahim).

That just means NOT all Scythians r Israelites.

In fact, Iranian history says that Scythians, Cymmerians n Sarmatians r all Iranian tribes, i.e. guys speaking an Iranian language.

[sonofgunongjerai]

Just a caution. You need to need to be careful when reading from some Israelite or pro-Israelite writers. They have this great aptitude for linking so many ancient nations to ancient Israeli tribes.

If one is to take these category of writers at face value, then virtually all the leading nations of Europe today, as well as the American nation, are descended from the 12 Israelite tribes. I've just come across one who claims that Queen Elizabeth is descended from the tribe of Judah, n that Saxons r descended from Isaac (i.e. Sakh's Sons). These r just claims by writers with wild imaginations. Not facts supported by hard evidence.

Not being anti-Israelite. Just being sensible.

When you say that someone is Israelite (Bani Israel), what that means is that he's ultimately descended from one of the 12 sons of Jacob (Ya'akob), who according to Israelite legend changed his name to Israel the morning after an all-night wrestling session with a mysterious being who asked him his name when they finished.

As for Scythians, since they r descended from Scyth (Ishkuth/Ishkuz), a grandson of Magog (Ma'juj) n thereby a great great grandson of Noah, that level is way, way earlier before the level of Jacob (Ya'akob), who is a grandson of Abraham (Ibrahim).

That just means NOT all Scythians r Israelites.

In fact, Iranian history says that Scythians, Cymmerians n Sarmatians r all Iranian tribes, i.e. guys speaking an Iranian language.

Oh yes Sir, I am not reading the fact carefully, thanks for the reminding. I checked the facts written by that pastor again, I also think that those facts written is not proved clearly and unsensible. Scythians suppose to be the people from Northern Iran, they arrived in India before Buddha Era.

For Cymmerians, many people believe that they might be evolved to be Kurdish people today. Kurdish people have no country and until today they are everywhere in Iran, Armenia, Turkey, Syria, to name some countries inhabited by them. Their language are considered as Iranian in branch but impossible to be related with Hebrew. In myKedah website if I am not mistaken, it is said that the Durbar Raja king 1 is a Kurdish who was accepted by locals in Kedah as the leader around 11th century or may be earlier, he tried to escape from the war in northern Iran and using sea as the way to escape.

I think we need to check the date of the arrival of this Irani leader in Kedah shore because we have two historical sources which is Tarikh Salasilah Negeri Kedah and Hikayat Merong Mahawangsa. Suppose that Kedah becoming a separate kingdom in Langkasuka after 5th century. While Langkasuka was established earlier around 2nd century till 14th century. Hikayat Merong Mahawangsa might be mixed with the arrival of the Irani king in Kedah area shore, it is older than Tarikh Salasilah Negeri Kedah, it may be telling us about the Langkasuka kingdom before the arrival of the Durbar king, who knows. This is merely my assumption, I would like to hear from other friends too.

Cymmerians and Scythians suppose to be different tribes under Irani stock but inhabiting neighboring territory in the past.

Yes, now I recall about Israel story, Abraham is not a Hebrew since the history about Hebrews began during the time of Joseph (Yusuf) and Abraham live earlier than Joseph, the history about Jews began in the time of Moses, that is a way far from the time of Abraham who is earlier. Thanks again.

This post has been edited by sonofgunongjerai: Jun 3 2008, 02:17 PM

[PerisaiLangkasuk...]

Yes, now I recall about Israel story, Abraham is not a Hebrew since the history about Hebrews began during the time of Joseph (Yusuf) and Abraham live earlier than Joseph, the history about Jews began in the time of Moses, that is a way far from the time of Abraham who is earlier. Thanks again.

Abraham (Ibrahim) not only lived earlier than Joseph (Yusuf). He was Yusuf's ancestor.

This post has been edited by PerisaiLangkasuka: Jun 5 2008, 12:25 AM

[sonofgunongjerai]

From what I've read n 'guessnalysed', 'Merong' would've actually been the Malayified version of 'Phra Ong', a title presumably used by Khmer kings of around that time, the Khmer Chenla-Funan empire being the regional power in SEA before the rise of Srivijaya in 685 AD.

Merong means Dragon derived from Boran Khmer (ancient Khmer), Merong means big snake. You can check the word in Kedahan Piama Calender used by Thai speaking community in Kedah ปีมะโรง (pee Mahkrong) translatable in Thai as ปีงูใหญ่ (pee ngu nhyai) means the year of the big snake. Piama calender consists of twelve zodiacs representing 12 ancient Khmer cities in the ancient time begin from ชวด, (Chuot) or Rat ended by the กุน (Kun) or Tortoise.

I agree after talking to a Thai friend that Prahk Ong is a Khmer term and used to address princes of royal families in Thailand, Cambodia, and Malayan Peninsula (northern part) area in ancient times. It is said that Sri Ayuttaya kingdom accepted Khmer-Khom customs in their court and mandala (territory), but Sri Ayuttaya was reported to succeed Sukhothai dynasty in 13th century while Prahk Ong Mahawangsa was the king of Kedah in 11th century where Siam wasn't actually conquering northern Malayan Peninsula area. Kedah is still known as Kedah Tua during 11th century and related to Langkasuka which was inherited by Patani in southern Thailand today.
.

[sonofgunongjerai]

There are eleven cities located in the Malayan Peninsula during ancient time, the area of those cities are located in Narathiwat, Patani, Kelantan, Kedah, Pattalung, Trang, Chumpohn, Krabi, Kanchanadit, Phuket and Kraburi.

Two cities that were missing are Pahang and Glangyao (Gelanggi). Each of these cities were related to each other and depends on each other in assistance during being attacked by enemies, they were represented by 12 zodiacs. They still exist under Sri Ayuttaya dynasty in 13th century. Kedah is represented by Merong or Big Snake. The reference of these Nakon (Nagara) or City-States are mentioned in Nakon Si Thammarat chronicles and Phra Datu Nakon chronicle.

The 12 zodiacs are Choat (Rat), Chalu (Ox), Khan (Tiger), Thok (Deer), Marong (Dragon or Huge Snake), Masing (Tiny Snake), Mahkmih (Horse), Mahkmia (Goat), Wouk (Monkey), Raka (Roaster), Chord (Dog), and Kun (Tortoise) if I am not mistake, I merely use my memory that I recall back during my late maternal grandmother telling us about the Piama calender or the season of harvesting paddy field.

[dreamhunter]

Are you so sure that when when the Srivijayan Malays came invading Langkasuka from Palembang n Jambi, the Langkasukans weren't speaking Malay yet?

If you're quoting that from an Indonesian source, I wouldn't take it at face value, cos they'd always be inclined to be biased in their favour, n our disfavour.

I think it could be likely that when those guys came to Langkasuka, hearing Kedahans, Pattanians n Kelantanese speak their own dialects of Malay for the first time, a confused Srivijayan would just as soon think that is was some local dialect of Mon or Khmer.

I can just imagine a bewildered Srivijayan warrior listening to a Kedahan saying:

1. "Hang pi ambik nyiok muda sebijik bawak mai kat aku la ni" (kau pergi ambil kelapa muda sebiji bawa kepada aku sekarang juga);

2. "Jum makan dan-dan la no" (ayuh makan sekarang juga la kan);

3. "Awat hang tak habaaq?" (kenapa kau tak beritahu?)

or a Pattanian/Kelantanese saying:

1. "Pah nok gi kwano pulok tu?" (habis nak pergi ke mana pula tu?);

2. "Bo bo la we, pade doh tu" (cukup la woi, padan dah tu);

3. "Sleke la make, loh, make sngoti-ngoti" (silakanlah makan, ayuh, makan bersungguh-sungguh);

thinking for all his Srivijayan worth that the locals must be speaking Mon or Khmer.

This post has been edited by dreamhunter: Jun 7 2008, 10:44 AM

[sonofgunongjerai]

^

We are not sure about it, but Langkasuka was once under Phnom-Chenla power before the war with Sriwijaya. The war raged between Langkasuka and Sriwijaya around 7th century, once after Sriwijaya gained their glorious achievement in 638 CE. The source that we cultivate is not from Indonesian, they don't even have any idea about the Langkasuka kingdom. The source is from Patani Palace scribe around 17th century whose name is Syeikh Daud Al-Fathani. Malay maybe a name of a tribe in Sumatera (it is not the context of Malaysia today, this is other story), before Sriwijaya took over the power, there is a kingdom in southern Sumatera called Melayu in Jambi. The tribes in Sumatera maybe of various names such as Mandailing, Achehnese, Batak, Rawa, Minangkabau, etc. Suppose that each kingdom in ancient time have their own language, but those language may be related because of the area is still the same.

This is not about nationality, this is about history. Javanese may say that the whole Indonesia belong to Javanese because Majapahitan conquered or attacked other area and territory, but that doesn't mean that all Indonesian are Javanese, or all people in SEA were evolved from Javanese. This is only an opinion. Others are welcome to express their opinion.

We could make the assumptions that the languages spoken in northern Malaysia and Malaysian East Coast might be influenced whether by Mon or Khmer or maybe the languages are from the same root with the language of Khmer or Mon, not that the language is Khmer or Mon but from the same root or linked. According to Western anthropologists, Khmer and Mon are classified under Austroasian people or the Inlander. Austronesian people are the people in the Islands and Coastal areas.

There is also an article if I am not mistaken in Berita Minggu last year about a grandmother from Yala who was mistaken as died after a Bus crash. She was founded in Chiangmai. She can't even speak any Thai word but only Patanese dialect of Malay, so she was sent to an old folk house in Chiangmai, far from her home in South. She only sing the song in Patanese dialect but people in Chiangmai thought that she is a Mon because Patanese dialect seems like Mon sound, thus she was called Mon Grandma. That grandmother was stucked in Chiangmai for almost 15 years, but fortunately a group of student from Southern Thailand make a visit to the old folk house, they could identify the old grandma as a Malay from South when listening to her singing

[sonofgunongjerai]

Thai spoken after Sri Ayuttaya in 13th century take over power in Siam accepted many Boran Khmer vocabulary, even the vocabulary in Thai doesn't exist anymore in modern Khmer today. Kedah was said to accept Islam formally in 11th century. Thai script too was based from Sakyan Khmer script, Thai script was invented by Ramkhamhaeng of Sukhothai in 12th century. The Sakyan ancient script of Khmer have the same form with Vetteluttu or Pallawa script used to write ancient Malay. So does the script of the Mon, it is still exist and used as Burmese script today.

[sonofgunongjerai]

The Kingdom of Srivijaya in Southern Thailand and Northern Malaysia Peninsula

Little is known about the Srivijaya Kingdom. But its art found in old Srivijayan cities in Southern Thailand tells us much about its people. This art reflects various infusions of style from India, Champa [ Vietnam ] and central Java. It might rather be a reference to all art and architecture in South Thailand in the period 7th - 13th C. The Kingdom was ruled by the Sailendra dynasty of Central Java, which also ruled the Indonesian Archipelago, the Malay Peninsula and Southern Thailand to the Isthmus of Kra. Its capital in Thailand was the City of Chaiya [ then called Grahi ].

In Thailand sculpture and architectural relics confirm that Mahayana Buddhism was predominate. The style reflects close resemblance to Indo-Javanese art also showing influences from India [ Amaravati, Pala and Gupta ]. Most Srivijaya architecture is on the east coastline from Surat Thani Province south to Songkhla Province and comprises religious buildings of Mahayana Buddhism.

Good examples are Phra Borom Mathat at Chaiya in Javanese style made of brick and mortar [ 9th – 10th C ], Wat Kaew Pagoda at Chaiya, also of Javanese form and Wat Long Pagoda. The original Wat Mahathat at Nakhon Si Thammarat [ a Srivijayan city ] was subsequently encased by a larger Sri Lanka styled building.

[sonofgunongjerai]

The history of Kedah, Perlis, Kelantan, and Terengganu is binded with southern Thailand and Sumatera, thus we could make comparison between the history written in Indonesia and Thailand together with Malaysian to see the co-lineal things, whether they are in common or different. Here is the chronology of Southern Thailand, since some portion of Kedah is in Thailand territory today:

History Chronology of South Thailand

This Chronology highlights and puts into historical perspective events in South Thailand:

200-500 Indianised period
500-800 Mon Kingdoms in the north
700-1300 Srivijaya Empire
1100-1300 Khmer Empire in the South
1250 Nakhon Si Thammarat becomes the centre of Theravada Buddhism from the Mahavihara Monastery in Sri Lanka from where it then went to the Khmer Angkor Empire, Lanna, Sukhothai and Lop Buri
1275-99 Islam is introduced into South East Asia
1294 Tai Sukhothai Empire enters the South and a Tai ruling house is installed at Nakhon Si Thammarat from where suzerian and vassal relations are established with Malay Kingdoms
1300's Ayuthaya Empire enters the South
1689 after the 1688 revolution in Ayuthaya and the expulsion of or imprisonment of most Europeans, the French seek to gain access to Phuket for its Tin but are denied entry
1785 Mon Burmese invade Phuket after other victories in South Thailand but at Thalang on Phuket Island, its ancient capital, the Burmese are defeated led by the two sisters whose statue is locted there today
1785 Penang , then part of the Siam Empire is ceded to Britain by the Sultan of Kedah
1897 Anglo-Siamese Convention defines today's modern Southern borders with Malaysia
1909 Siam cedes the Provinces of Kelantan, Kedah, Perlis and Terengganu to the British in the Anglo-Siamese Treaty of 1909

[sonofgunongjerai]

Central Thailand History

The Kingdoms of Central Thailand Over 2000 Years

There have been seven Kingdoms or Empires of political and administrative significance in Central Thailand during the past 2000 years. These include, [ 1 ] the Kingdom of Chenla, [ 2 ] the Dvaravati Kingdom, [ 3 ] the Khmer Empire, [ 4 ] the Kingdom of Lop Buri, [ 5 ] the Sukhothai Kingdom, [ 6 ] the Tai Siamese Kingdom of Ayutthaya and [ 7 ] the Tai Siamese Bangkok Empire. Also we should not forget the efforts of King Taksin [ 1767-82 ]. Each Empire is explained in its link and each had different significance at different times in different neighbouring regions as well as in Central Thailand.

The Kingdom of Chenla
The Dvaravati Kingdom [ 6th - 11th C ] was that of the Mon people who were ethnically separate from the Tai who invaded them from China and the Khmer who also invaded them from Cambodia
The Khmer Empire [ Angkorian ] in Thailand [ 11th C -1436 ] was that of the Hindu believing Khmers of Cambodia who ethnically were austroasians [ as were the Mon ]. The major Khmer settlements in Central Thailand were at, [ 1 ] Prasat Kamphaeng Lang in Phetchaburi Province, [ 2 ] Muang Kosinarayana in Ratchaburi Province, [ 3 ] Muang Singh in Kanchanaburi Province, [ 4 ] Noen Thang Phra in Suphan Buri Province, [ 5 ] Muang Lopburi,[ 6 ] Muang Si Mahosot [ Phra Roth ] in Prachin Buri Province, [ 7 ] Muang Phai and [ 8 ] Prasat Khao Noi, both in Sa Kaeo Province
The Lop Buri Kingdom was at various times Mon, Khmer and Tai ethnically controlled and at times Buddhist and Hindu, its influence only covered part of the Central Region as and when as explained in the link
The Sukhothai Empire [ 1238 -1378 ] was that of the Buddhist Tai Siamese, relatives of the other Tai tribes which originated in China and which formed the various Tai Kingdoms
The Tai Ayutthaya Empire [ 1351-1767 ] and its successor after the Burmese invasion, the Bangkok Empire [ 1782-1932 ] were both of the Tai Siamese, who ruled an amalgam of ethnic groups [ Mon, Tai, Khmer etc ] the ancestors of whom today are what is now referred to as ’’ Thai ’’. The Kingdom of Ayutthaya was a Tai Kingdom formed at Ayutthaya in the Central region. It expanded to conquer most of modern Thailand and some neighbors. In this section we deal with how it started in the Central region and its expanded Empire elsewhere.

The Kingdoms of Bangkok - Following the collapse of the Ayutthaya Kingdom and its Empire, the survivors of its defeat went to Bangkok and established a new administration, first as the Taksin Thonburi Kingdom and subsequently that of the Chakri Dynasty. These Kingdoms not only expelled the Burmese from Central Thailand, but all of Thailand and regained an Empire in Laos, parts of Burma [ Myanmar ] and Malaysia. However in the late 19th C Siam had to retreat from all of Cambodia, Laos and Burma and parts of Malaysia upon pressure from the European imperialists France and Britain.

[sonofgunongjerai]

Here is the link about Thailand history, I just give some portion of the Thailand history with the emphasize on Southern Thailand, in which we can figure some idea about Kedah and Langkasuka in ancient time. So we not only depend on Malaysian sources and Indonesian sources of history, but we can have broader idea about the shrouded mystery in Kedah and other states in the Malayan Peninsula.

http://www.thailandsworld.com/

[dreamhunter]

I have already read much of the stuff you've given.

Let me make it simple.

There was a river called Sungai Malayu in Jambi. Settlements then formed around it, which later became a proper kingdom, called the Malayu kingdom.

Since the people spoke a proper, systematic, coherent language, also called Malayu, which became adopted as the official language of Srivijaya, then to me there must have been a tribe (kaum), if not a nation (bangsa) called Malayu, who gave their name to the river around which they settled.

Now Indos have always said the Malay peoples of Indonesia, which settled mainly in the coastal areas came from somewhere else. The question now is from where?

The most popular theory, especially among Indos, is that they came as island hoppers from Taiwan n southern China, down to Philippines, further down to Borneo n Sulawesi, n on to Java n Sumatra, before they finally sailed up north again to Semenanjung.

Now, I'm saying, it can't be all like that.

Since we came from Yunnan, the majority of Ancient Malays would have gone south via Myanmar, Thailand n Semenanjung, before some of them actually sailed across to Sumatra n Java. It would have been an easier, nearer, n therefore more probable route, wouldn't it?

But Indos being Indos, they always have to be Indonesian-centred, n they'd always favour a theory that said Semenanjung Malays came from Sumatra, rather than another which said that Java n Sumatra Malays came from Semenanjung.

N I say, why can't we accept both theories?

Anyway, just because Langkasuka came under the hegemonies of Khmer Funan-Chenla n Mon Dvaravati during certain periods, that doesn't mean Langkasukans spoke Mon or Khmer. Why couldn't they have kept their original Langkasukan identity?

Similarly, just because Langkasukans came under Javanese Majapahitan hegemony for a while, doesn't mean Kedahans, Pattanians or Kelantanese spoke Javanese.

We have all retained our Kedahan, Pattanian n Kelantanese identity until today, haven't we?

N we haven't absorbed much Javanese into our local dialects at all, have we?

If anything, it is Mon n Khmer which were descended from Pyu n Cham, which in turn were descended from Ancient Malay.

NOT the other way around.

If you want my guess regarding where the name Malayu came from, it is from Marayu (Marayo), first king of Arakan kingdom in ancient Myanmar, around 2275 BC. We are descendants of him n his tribe, who came from Yunnan n transitted in Arakan region for several hundred years, before moving on to the rest of SEA n southern China.

There r also other theories, such as "mala = mountain" (Pali/Sanskrit/Malayalam/Tamil), "mala = flower" (Khmer), "melayu = lari" (Javanese) n "Malayeu = people left behind by General Ma" (Chinese).

But I'd go for king Marayu (Marayo).

This post has been edited by dreamhunter: Jun 9 2008, 08:42 AM

[sonofgunongjerai]

I have already read much of the stuff you've given.

Let me make it simple.

There was a river called Sungai Malayu in Jambi. Settlements then formed around it, which later became a proper kingdom, called the Malayu kingdom.

Since the people spoke a proper, systematic, coherent language, also called Malayu, which became adopted as the official language of Srivijaya, then to me there must have been a tribe (kaum), if not a nation (bangsa) called Malayu, who gave their name to the river around which they settled.

Now Indos have always said the Malay peoples of Indonesia, which settled mainly in the coastal areas came from somewhere else. The question now is from where?

The most popular theory, especially among Indos, is that they came as island hoppers from Taiwan n southern China, down to Philippines, further down to Borneo n Sulawesi, n on to Java n Sumatra, before they finally sailed up north again to Semenanjung.

Now, I'm saying, it can't be all like that.

Since we came from Yunnan, the majority of Ancient Malays would have gone south via Myanmar, Thailand n Semenanjung, before some of them actually sailed across to Sumatra n Java. It would have been an easier, nearer, n therefore more probable route, wouldn't it?

But Indos being Indos, they always have to be Indonesian-centred, n they'd always favour a theory that said Semenanjung Malays came from Sumatra, rather than another which said that Java n Sumatra Malays came from Semenanjung.

N I say, why can't we accept both theories?

Anyway, just because Langkasuka came under the hegemonies of Khmer Funan-Chenla n Mon Dvaravati during certain periods, that doesn't mean Langkasukans spoke Mon or Khmer. Why couldn't they have kept their original Langkasukan identity?

Similarly, just because Langkasukans came under Javanese Majapahitan hegemony for a while, doesn't mean Kedahans, Pattanians or Kelantanese spoke Javanese.

We have all retained our Kedahan, Pattanian n Kelantanese identity until today, haven't we?

N we haven't absorbed much Javanese into our local dialects at all, have we?

If anything, it is Mon n Khmer which were descended from Pyu n Cham, which in turn were descended from Ancient Malay.

NOT the other way around.

If you want my guess regarding where the name Malayu came from, it is from Marayu (Marayo), first king of Arakan kingdom in ancient Myanmar, around 2275 BC. We are descendants of him n his tribe, who came from Yunnan n transitted in Arakan region for several hundred years, before moving on to the rest of SEA n southern China.

There r also other theories, such as "mala = mountain" (Pali/Sanskrit/Malayalam/Tamil), "mala = flower" (Khmer), "melayu = lari" (Javanese) n "Malayeu = people left behind by General Ma" (Chinese).

But I'd go for king Marayu (Marayo).

I can see that the theory Marayu seems acceptable, Marayo almost heard as Merayau or wandering in English. I also agree that the people in Langkasuka may have their own identity including the language, but the languages may be evolved from a single proto (ancient) language. Arakan kindom also seems acceptable as a transit region for these ancient people. But Yunnan seems unacceptable, in my guess, those ancient people might be from Kashmir, because I think that Kashmir is not only the place where Aryan people (the Panditas) came from but the Aryan also used to inter-mingle with the Nagas. My guess is that the Nagas are the ancient people that move down-wards from Kashmir to Myanmar and expand their way downward to SEA plate. They too scattered around India as indigenous tribes apart of the Dravidians.

What do you think about the Nagas? Since Cambodian claimed that they were the descendents of Nagas and a Brahmin from Kambuja tribe. The Nagas had been portrayed in Mahabharata as the aborigines or the natives of Himalaya and Kashmir, mystical people who can turn themselves into snake and becoming human, in Buddhism too Nagas had been mentioned as taking the form of a human because it want to become a monk while animals are prohibited from becoming monk. They too scattered everywhere in India and South East Asia if we take the legends and myths in Malayan Peninsula such as The Naga Tasek Chini? Those legends might be shrouded with myths but we can see some facts such as Nagas are a supernatural race or a race who know magic, well of course a human turning into a snake or a snake turning into a human are ridiculous.

Oh by the way the Jakun and Senoi tribes are considered as Proto-Malays, were they too evolved from Indonesians? or any other theories about them?

[dreamhunter]

Try googling Marayu/Marayo.

The 'Out of Yunnan' theory is still quite plausible, I think.

If the Naga people couldn't transform themselves into a snake, then their magic couldn't have been that fantastic.

My guess is that the Naga people of Funan were Ancient Malays. Maybe related to the Orang Laut (Deutro-Malays), perhaps? Or even Orang Darat (Proto-Malays)?

There is that one story about the Naga princess (Nagi Soma) of Funan 'transforming' herself into a 'nymph' one night, n the Indian (Kambujan?) warrior, Kaundinya, falling in love with her, courting her, n eventually marrying her, thus effecting the merger of his kingdom with his father in law's kingdom.

My simple interpretation of that legend is that the princess simply decided to go out for an evening walkabout in the nude (the Funanese were in the habit of going around naked at that time, as recorded by one ancient Chinese writer), our Kambujan hero saw her n got horny, n ... well ... decided to pursue her.

But she was smart n self-controlled, despite him being almost an exact clone of Amir Khan, n managed to force him to ask for her hand in marriage.

As for Jakun n Senoi, if you ask an Indo, I can already tell you their probable answer.

For me, they're just proto-Malays (Orang Darat) who came from the north into the Semenanjung.

This post has been edited by dreamhunter: Jun 9 2008, 09:55 AM

[sonofgunongjerai]

Try googling Marayu/Marayo.

The 'Out of Yunnan' theory is still quite plausible, I think.

If the Naga people couldn't transform themselves into a snake, then their magic couldn't have been that fantastic.

My guess is that the Naga people of Funan were Ancient Malays. Maybe related to the Orang Laut (Deutro-Malays), perhaps? Or even Orang Darat (Proto-Malays)?

There is that one story about the Naga princess (Nagi Soma) of Funan 'transforming' herself into a 'nymph' one night, n the Indian (Kambujan?) warrior, Kaundinya, falling in love with her, courting her, n eventually marrying her, thus effecting the merger of his kingdom with his father in law's kingdom.

My simple interpretation of that legend is that the princess simply decided to go out for an evening walkabout in the nude (the Funanese were in the habit of going around naked at that time, as recorded by one ancient Chinese writer), our Kambujan hero saw her n got horny, n ... well ... decided to pursue her.

But she was smart n self-controlled, despite him being almost an exact clone of Amir Khan, n managed to force him to ask for her hand in marriage.

As for Jakun n Senoi, if you ask an Indo, I can already tell you their probable answer.

For me, they're just proto-Malays (Orang Darat) who came from the north into the Semenanjung.

I agree with your points and theories, they correspond to my guess, thanks anyway

[ThreddOfDredd]

Just one thing.

Some folks believe that the straight-haired type of Orang Asli (Jakun, if I'm not mistaken, or is it Sakai? ), may belong to the Veddic (with a double 'd') group of people believed to be the original indigenous natives of Sri Lanka, before the Sinhala people came.

Some indigenous tribes in Sarawak, e.g. Dayak, may also belong to this category (Veddic).

This post has been edited by ThreddOfDredd: Jun 9 2008, 12:07 PM