Mongolian Chat : ), anyone Options

[User1]

this forum had to turn into a chinese history lesson...

(IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif) no shyt.. Just remember that all the "4 squares" usernames are all Chinese nationalists..

I think this one used to go by the name of LTY..

[MING-LOYALIST]

That maybe true, but the Han population so outnumbered the Mongol the Mongol blood would have been haviely diluted, not to mention During the Jin-Mongol wars northern china was devestated and population decrease exponentially, alot of modern northern chinese are actually Han from further south who repopulated northern china later.

if the majority of NuZhen assimilated into the general Northern Han population, then the 20 million member Manchu nation would not have arisen shortly thereafter.
A. plus, despite what southern centric types say, the population of Northern China never dropped below 50 million during the Jin Dynsaty. therefore, 500,000 nuzhen versus 50 million Han, you do the math

I don't know where you get the 20 million Manchu nation from bro. There was only 2 million manchus and even then they were a mix of Jurchen,Mongol,Han.

BTW when I said northern China was repopulated by people further south what I meant was that hebei and liaoning province was devasted and had a huge influx of people from Henan and Shandong not from southern China.

[User1]

According to the nuts on Skadi we're all partly descended from the Indo-European nomads who brought us civilization.. so who cares from what province.. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif)

[擅曲調之]

That maybe true, but the Han population so outnumbered the Mongol the Mongol blood would have been haviely diluted, not to mention During the Jin-Mongol wars northern china was devestated and population decrease exponentially, alot of modern northern chinese are actually Han from further south who repopulated northern china later.

if the majority of NuZhen assimilated into the general Northern Han population, then the 20 million member Manchu nation would not have arisen shortly thereafter.
A. plus, despite what southern centric types say, the population of Northern China never dropped below 50 million during the Jin Dynsaty. therefore, 500,000 nuzhen versus 50 million Han, you do the math

I don't know where you get the 20 million Manchu nation from bro. There was only 2 million manchus and even then they were a mix of Jurchen,Mongol,Han.

BTW when I said northern China was repopulated by people further south what I meant was that hebei and liaoning province was devasted and had a huge influx of people from Henan and Shandong not from southern China.

i've read sources numbering from ten million to 15 million manchus. the two million was their military i believe. i generalized by rounding up to 20 but my point is that not all NuZhen Sinicized, otherwise, the Manchus wouldn't have come into existence

besides, i was actually responding to unregistered user's post

[MING-LOYALIST]

i've read sources numbering from ten million to 15 million manchus. the two million was their military i believe. i generalized by rounding up to 20 but my point is that not all NuZhen Sinicized, otherwise, the Manchus wouldn't have come into existence

besides, i was actually responding to unregistered user's post

That cannot be true there is only 8 million Manchus in China today, I think you got confused with the population of Manchus with the population of a Manchu created Jin empire which had a huge Han population.

And the Manchu banners could hardly exceeded 300,000. even with all the Han troops and Mongol banners the whole Qing army barely reached 2 Million(this is including all the local militia units).

[擅曲調之]

i've read sources numbering from ten million to 15 million manchus. the two million was their military i believe. i generalized by rounding up to 20 but my point is that not all NuZhen Sinicized, otherwise, the Manchus wouldn't have come into existence

besides, i was actually responding to unregistered user's post

That cannot be true there is only 8 million Manchus in China today, I think you got confused with the population of Manchus with the population of a Manchu created Jin empire which had a huge Han population.

And the Manchu banners could hardly exceeded 300,000. even with all the Han troops and Mongol banners the whole Qing army barely reached 2 Million(this is including all the local militia units).

the current manchu population is closer to 10 million. anyway, perhaps you're right, i'm digging through books right now and can't find the passage where i got 10-15 million

the jin empire had 50 million Hans(so much for loser1 and unregistered user's population depletion theory) plus between half a million to a million NuZhen. its no way i got my source from that time period

[MING-LOYALIST]

According to the nuts on Skadi we're all partly descended from the Indo-European nomads who brought us civilization.. so who cares from what province..  (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif)

There are distinct traits in each province.
Ie, Shandong people are taller, Sichuan girls prettier etc(gneralising of couse).

[User1]

i've read sources numbering from ten million to 15 million manchus. the two million was their military i believe. i generalized by rounding up to 20 but my point is that not all NuZhen Sinicized, otherwise, the Manchus wouldn't have come into existence

besides, i was actually responding to unregistered user's post

That cannot be true there is only 8 million Manchus in China today, I think you got confused with the population of Manchus with the population of a Manchu created Jin empire which had a huge Han population.

And the Manchu banners could hardly exceeded 300,000. even with all the Han troops and Mongol banners the whole Qing army barely reached 2 Million(this is including all the local militia units).

Look at how many part Manchu people there are.. I'm part, LTY's part.. Bombs_Over_Tokyo and a whole bunch of others.. that loser Xan/Hung-gate is full..

The Jurchen were 25% of the population according to censuses in their dynasty/state of Jin and their descendents the Manchus was not a small population either..

This post has been edited by User1: Dec 28 2004, 05:42 PM

[MING-LOYALIST]

the current manchu population is closer to 10 million. anyway, perhaps you're right, i'm digging through books right now and can't find the passage where i got 10-15 million

the jin empire had 50 million Hans(so much for loser1 and unregistered user's population depletion theory) plus between half a million to a million NuZhen. its no way i got my source from that time period

I was talking about the Later Jin empire estabilshed by Nurhaci not THE Jin empire estabilished by WanYan Aguda.

[MING-LOYALIST]

Look at how many part Manchu people there are.. I'm part, LTY's part.. Bombs_Over_Tokyo and a whole bunch of others.. that loser Xan/Hung-gate is full..

The Jurchen were 25% of the population according to censuses in their dynasty/state of Jin and their descendents the Manchus was not a small population either..

True but then for every one of you part manchu there are atleast 100 pure Han people.

[User1]

Look at how many part Manchu people there are.. I'm part, LTY's part.. Bombs_Over_Tokyo and a whole bunch of others.. that loser Xan/Hung-gate is full..

The Jurchen were 25% of the population according to censuses in their dynasty/state of Jin and their descendents the Manchus was not a small population either..

True but then for every one of you part manchu there are atleast 100 pure Han people.

25% of the population.. And just think of all the northern nomads that have been absorbed into the fold.. literally hundreds of ethnic groups

[擅曲調之]

i've read sources numbering from ten million to 15 million manchus. the two million was their military i believe. i generalized by rounding up to 20 but my point is that not all NuZhen Sinicized, otherwise, the Manchus wouldn't have come into existence

besides, i was actually responding to unregistered user's post

That cannot be true there is only 8 million Manchus in China today, I think you got confused with the population of Manchus with the population of a Manchu created Jin empire which had a huge Han population.

And the Manchu banners could hardly exceeded 300,000. even with all the Han troops and Mongol banners the whole Qing army barely reached 2 Million(this is including all the local militia units).

Look at how many part Manchu people there are.. I'm part, LTY's part.. Bombs_Over_Tokyo and a whole bunch of others.. that loser Xan/Hung-gate is full..

The Jurchen were 25% of the population according to censuses in their dynasty/state of Jin and their descendents the Manchus was not a small population either..

ROFL, you're part Manchu, now?

anyway, i don't know where you got your source that 25% of the Jin empire was NuZhen. the NuZhens back then unlike their Manchu descendants were full nomads, the Manchus toggled back and forth between nomadic and settled lifestyles allowing their population to grow. however, the NuZhen population never exceeded 1 million. F. W Motte,without a doubt, the westerner with the most knowledge about nomadic groups as well as every other source i've read shows the nuzhen population of the Jin was a bit less than a million vs. 50 million Hans

[User1]

i've read sources numbering from ten million to 15 million manchus. the two million was their military i believe. i generalized by rounding up to 20 but my point is that not all NuZhen Sinicized, otherwise, the Manchus wouldn't have come into existence

besides, i was actually responding to unregistered user's post

That cannot be true there is only 8 million Manchus in China today, I think you got confused with the population of Manchus with the population of a Manchu created Jin empire which had a huge Han population.

And the Manchu banners could hardly exceeded 300,000. even with all the Han troops and Mongol banners the whole Qing army barely reached 2 Million(this is including all the local militia units).

Look at how many part Manchu people there are.. I'm part, LTY's part.. Bombs_Over_Tokyo and a whole bunch of others.. that loser Xan/Hung-gate is full..

The Jurchen were 25% of the population according to censuses in their dynasty/state of Jin and their descendents the Manchus was not a small population either..

ROFL, you're part Manchu, now?

anyway, i don't know where you got your source that 25% of the Jin empire was NuZhen. the NuZhens back then unlike their Manchu descendants were full nomads, the Manchus toggled back and forth between nomadic and settled lifestyles allowing their population to grow. however, the NuZhen population never exceeded 1 million. F. W Motte,without a doubt, the westerner with the most knowledge about nomadic groups as well as every other source i've read shows the nuzhen population of the Jin was a bit less than a million vs. 50 million Hans

"You're part Manchu now?"
Dude just go look up where I introduced myself on CNA half a year ago.. I stated it then plain and simple..
50 million Hans in the whole of China or the area they controlled? (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/sure.gif)
I got my figures out of a Chinese book..

Here's a map of a much earlier time, but it shows how incessant the nomadic peoples were in hoppin the border. Like Mexicans, it accrues over time:
(IMG:http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/third0eye/anthropology/Chinese/nomad_infiltration.jpg)

This post has been edited by User1: Dec 28 2004, 06:20 PM

[擅曲調之]

i've read sources numbering from ten million to 15 million manchus. the two million was their military i believe. i generalized by rounding up to 20 but my point is that not all NuZhen Sinicized, otherwise, the Manchus wouldn't have come into existence

besides, i was actually responding to unregistered user's post

That cannot be true there is only 8 million Manchus in China today, I think you got confused with the population of Manchus with the population of a Manchu created Jin empire which had a huge Han population.

And the Manchu banners could hardly exceeded 300,000. even with all the Han troops and Mongol banners the whole Qing army barely reached 2 Million(this is including all the local militia units).

Look at how many part Manchu people there are.. I'm part, LTY's part.. Bombs_Over_Tokyo and a whole bunch of others.. that loser Xan/Hung-gate is full..

The Jurchen were 25% of the population according to censuses in their dynasty/state of Jin and their descendents the Manchus was not a small population either..

ROFL, you're part Manchu, now?

anyway, i don't know where you got your source that 25% of the Jin empire was NuZhen. the NuZhens back then unlike their Manchu descendants were full nomads, the Manchus toggled back and forth between nomadic and settled lifestyles allowing their population to grow. however, the NuZhen population never exceeded 1 million. F. W Motte,without a doubt, the westerner with the most knowledge about nomadic groups as well as every other source i've read shows the nuzhen population of the Jin was a bit less than a million vs. 50 million Hans

"You're part Manchu now?"
Dude just go look up where I introduced myself on CNA half a year ago.. I stated it then plain and simple..
50 million Hans in the whole of China or the area they controlled? (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/sure.gif)

the Jin had 50 million Hans, Southern Song had 100 million. if you call that population depletion. the population was only depleted compared to the southern song (which by the way, the main areas of settlement wree the areas directedly around the YangZi, provinces like Guangdong wouldn't be fully China proper until as late as the Ming)

the southern centric population depletion theory is bullcrap. its clear during the conquest dynasties that the Han population outnumbered the NuZhen by ALOT. the early NuZhen could care less about the superiority of Han culture, it took many years and a HUGE han population to turn a portion (not all, otherwise, no manchus) of the NuZhen into ethnic Hans

[User1]

the Jin had 50 million Hans, Southern Song had 100 million. if you call that population depletion. the population was only depleted compared to the southern song (which by the way, the main areas of settlement wree the areas directedly around the YangZi, provinces like Guangdong wouldn't be fully China proper until as late as the Ming)

the southern centric population depletion theory is bullcrap. its clear during the conquest dynasties that the Han population outnumbered the NuZhen by ALOT. the early NuZhen could care less about the superiority of Han culture, it took many years and a HUGE han population to turn a portion (not all, otherwise, no manchus) of the NuZhen into ethnic Hans

give me the source for this..
25% of 50 mil is 12 million.. sounds right..

This post has been edited by User1: Dec 28 2004, 06:09 PM

[擅曲調之]

i've read sources numbering from ten million to 15 million manchus. the two million was their military i believe. i generalized by rounding up to 20 but my point is that not all NuZhen Sinicized, otherwise, the Manchus wouldn't have come into existence

besides, i was actually responding to unregistered user's post

That cannot be true there is only 8 million Manchus in China today, I think you got confused with the population of Manchus with the population of a Manchu created Jin empire which had a huge Han population.

And the Manchu banners could hardly exceeded 300,000. even with all the Han troops and Mongol banners the whole Qing army barely reached 2 Million(this is including all the local militia units).

Look at how many part Manchu people there are.. I'm part, LTY's part.. Bombs_Over_Tokyo and a whole bunch of others.. that loser Xan/Hung-gate is full..

The Jurchen were 25% of the population according to censuses in their dynasty/state of Jin and their descendents the Manchus was not a small population either..

ROFL, you're part Manchu, now?

anyway, i don't know where you got your source that 25% of the Jin empire was NuZhen. the NuZhens back then unlike their Manchu descendants were full nomads, the Manchus toggled back and forth between nomadic and settled lifestyles allowing their population to grow. however, the NuZhen population never exceeded 1 million. F. W Motte,without a doubt, the westerner with the most knowledge about nomadic groups as well as every other source i've read shows the nuzhen population of the Jin was a bit less than a million vs. 50 million Hans

"You're part Manchu now?"
Dude just go look up where I introduced myself on CNA half a year ago.. I stated it then plain and simple..
50 million Hans in the whole of China or the area they controlled? (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/sure.gif)

the Jin had 50 million Hans, Southern Song had 100 million. if you call that population depletion. the population was only depleted compared to the southern song (which by the way, the main areas of settlement wree the areas directedly around the YangZi, provinces like Guangdong wouldn't be fully China proper until as late as the Ming)

the southern centric population depletion theory is bullcrap. its clear during the conquest dynasties that the Han population outnumbered the NuZhen by ALOT. the early NuZhen could care less about the superiority of Han culture, it took many years and a HUGE han population to turn a portion (not all, otherwise, no manchus) of the NuZhen into ethnic Hans

give me the source for this..
25% of 50 mil is 12 million.. sounds right..

go get Imperial China 900 Ad-1800 AD by F.W Motte. its over 1000 pages long and has in its bibliography over 600 sources. he is an expert regarding nomadic groups. over the years in college, i've read most of the sources hes listed(i've tracked down 250 articles he used as source regarding the nomadic groups)

the NuZhen population could not have exceeded 1.5 million. they're nomads, its quite difficult to have many kids when you're on a horse hunting and raiding all day. its common sense. also, there is no record of population growth during the Jin of either Han or NuZhen, even you realize this

[User1]

go get Imperial China 900 Ad-1800 AD by F.W Motte. its over 1000 pages long and has in its bibliography over 600 sources. he is an expert regarding nomadic groups. over the years in college, i've read most of the sources hes listed(i've tracked down 250 articles he used as source regarding the nomadic groups)

the NuZhen population could not have exceeded 1.5 million. they're nomads, its quite difficult to have many kids when you're on a horse hunting and raiding all day. its common sense. also, there is no record of population growth during the Jin of either Han or NuZhen, even you realize this

Maybe I remember wrong then..
If not the Jurchen having 12 million, then all the non-Han nomads that lived on their territory. There were a lot of ethnic groups.. You know this.. and 12 million doesn't sound reasonable?

This post has been edited by User1: Dec 28 2004, 06:10 PM

[MING-LOYALIST]

give me the source for this..
25% of 50 mil is 12 million.. sounds right..

Give me source for your claims. If Jin had 25% jurchen pop then Siniszation would have hardly occured.

[User1]

give me the source for this..
25% of 50 mil is 12 million.. sounds right..

Give me source for your claims. If Jin had 25% jurchen pop then Siniszation would have hardly occured.

I read a part of this book in Chinese at my father's friends house..
They moved.. But if it's true, other sources should also say it.

[擅曲調之]

i've read sources numbering from ten million to 15 million manchus. the two million was their military i believe. i generalized by rounding up to 20 but my point is that not all NuZhen Sinicized, otherwise, the Manchus wouldn't have come into existence

besides, i was actually responding to unregistered user's post

That cannot be true there is only 8 million Manchus in China today, I think you got confused with the population of Manchus with the population of a Manchu created Jin empire which had a huge Han population.

And the Manchu banners could hardly exceeded 300,000. even with all the Han troops and Mongol banners the whole Qing army barely reached 2 Million(this is including all the local militia units).

Look at how many part Manchu people there are.. I'm part, LTY's part.. Bombs_Over_Tokyo and a whole bunch of others.. that loser Xan/Hung-gate is full..

The Jurchen were 25% of the population according to censuses in their dynasty/state of Jin and their descendents the Manchus was not a small population either..

ROFL, you're part Manchu, now?

anyway, i don't know where you got your source that 25% of the Jin empire was NuZhen. the NuZhens back then unlike their Manchu descendants were full nomads, the Manchus toggled back and forth between nomadic and settled lifestyles allowing their population to grow. however, the NuZhen population never exceeded 1 million. F. W Motte,without a doubt, the westerner with the most knowledge about nomadic groups as well as every other source i've read shows the nuzhen population of the Jin was a bit less than a million vs. 50 million Hans

"You're part Manchu now?"
Dude just go look up where I introduced myself on CNA half a year ago.. I stated it then plain and simple..
50 million Hans in the whole of China or the area they controlled? (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/sure.gif)

the Jin had 50 million Hans, Southern Song had 100 million. if you call that population depletion. the population was only depleted compared to the southern song (which by the way, the main areas of settlement wree the areas directedly around the YangZi, provinces like Guangdong wouldn't be fully China proper until as late as the Ming)

the southern centric population depletion theory is bullcrap. its clear during the conquest dynasties that the Han population outnumbered the NuZhen by ALOT. the early NuZhen could care less about the superiority of Han culture, it took many years and a HUGE han population to turn a portion (not all, otherwise, no manchus) of the NuZhen into ethnic Hans

give me the source for this..
25% of 50 mil is 12 million.. sounds right..

go get Imperial China 900 Ad-1800 AD by F.W Motte. its over 1000 pages long and has in its bibliography over 600 sources. he is an expert regarding nomadic groups. over the years in college, i've read most of the sources hes listed(i've tracked down 250 articles he used as source regarding the nomadic groups)

the NuZhen population could not have exceeded 1.5 million. they're nomads, its quite difficult to have many kids when you're on a horse hunting and raiding all day. its common sense. also, there is no record of population growth during the Jin of either Han or NuZhen, even you realize this

Maybe I remember wrong then..
If not the Jurchen having 12 million, then all the non-Han nomads that lived on their territory. There were a lot of ethnic groups.. You know this.. and 12 million doesn't sound reasonable?

yes, the NuZhen extended authority over all kinds of groups. not just Han and Qidan. but its clear from the lack of information about these other groups that their populations were not large. The nuzhen (despite pan altaic belief) discriminated against the Qidan (their first major enemy) and other nomad groups. from this, i can infer that these smaller groups did not settle within Huabei but remained on the steppe or Liaodong forrests. it would give these groups absolutely no advantage to live within Huabei