Mongolian Chat : ), anyone Options

[Adee]

^Did you watch this TV program on BBC2 two weeks ago about this english guy who went and live with a Mongolian family?

What are the cool things to do in Mongolia?

[mongolhuu]

mongolia has the best night clubs in the central asia... (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_smile.gif)

mongolians sure know how to party! alcohol beverages r the best.

[華夏無產]

mongolia has the best night clubs in the central asia... (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_smile.gif)

mongolians sure know how to party! alcohol beverages r the best.

What do you guys drink over there? Vodka? Beer?

[mongolhuu]

anything with alcohol content.

mostly vodka. but i myself prefer beer, there's a mongolian beer selling in the west coast, but not here. we do have imported mongolian premium vodka selling in the liquor stores her in denver. ive tried one, i didnt like the taste.

[華夏無產]

anything with alcohol content.

I should consider spending some time in Mongolia, then.. I drink quite a bit, in fact I'm drinking a beer now... Don't you have this sort of alcoholic beverage made from milk?

[mongolhuu]

oh yes! airag.. made from mares milk.

its very potent actually!! one bowl and u get to warm up quite a bit. lol

they also make vodka from mares milk.

[UnregisteredUser]

unregistered user is a good example of someone who knows how to read but can't think at all

Yet you can neither read nor think. In fact, your replies suggest that you lack a brain for that matter.

1. rape and pillage as a means of spreading genes? lets see the unlikeline3ss of that affecting a population already 50 million in size (Northern China at the time oif the Mongol invasions)

50 million for northern China? Were they all "Han"? Give me a primary or reliable secondary source that supports such a number.

A. the brutality of the rape itself, especially in that era, might just kill the girl altogether
B. Mongols were known to kill the girl right after the rape. by the way, death means no chance of pregnancy
C. females can only become pregnant during a specific cycle during the month. the Mongols did not time their raids to coincide with this =P
D. so basically the only girls that would have Han/Mongol hybrids are the ones who survived the rape itself, were not killed by their rapist, and perfectly coincided with their particular cycle of the month

Oh really? You lived in the 13th century AD and was a direct eye-witness? Or did you just pull that out of your @$$? I think you fit the latter description more.

Do show me primary sources that back up your assumptions and also quote directly from them since it now appears to be unfounded bull$hit.

E. furthermore, there are no identifiable "Mongol Genes", however there is an identifiable Sinid Y chromosome...which is actually found in some Mongols.

Source?

other nomad groups

2. Qidan=first of all, they only controlled the 16 prefectures south of the great wall, they did not control a large chunk of northern China. and once again, they did not intermarry with Hans. Yes, its true that SOME Qidan sinicized and were then thrown into the general northern Population (which is due to the Mongol Yuan law of the second tier of society which included all Northern Han,all NuZhen in Huabei, and Sinicized QiDan but the overwhelming majority did not. in fact, history remembers the Qidan as fiercely resistant to Sinicization much like Mongols.

And I never contested the fact that the Liao Khitans controlled only parts of northern China.

A. Anthropologists have found through genetic testing that the modern Daur 达斡尔 group of present day Inner Mongolia are the Qidan's closest relatives, so much for your idiotic claim that Northerners are Sinicized Qidan

Are you blind or unable to comprehend? When have I claimed that the "Northerners are Sinicized Qidan"?

This is what I had posted:

During the Song Dynasties, the Khitans (a proto-Mongol/Tungusic people) ruled northern China for a while, then came the Jurchens (Tungusic).

All I was suggesting was that there was certainly a possibility that at least some of the Khitans were sinicized and eventually mixed with the "Han" population in the 16 prefectures, meaning that some Han were at least mixed with the Khitans. There was nothing wrong in saying that many Hans (especially northern Han) contain partial blood from steppe nomads since I never indicated that "many" is necessarily proportional to the total population of Hans, given that the population of the PRC today is almost 2 billion. You must be fu-king retarded (which I don't doubt) to think that I proposed that all "Hans" contained Khitan blood, which I never claimed.

3. NuZhen=yes, LOTs of NuZhen became Sinicized into the general Northern Population but not all of them as the claim goes. NuZhen are Manchu ancestors. if the majority of NuZhen assimilated into the general Northern Han population, then the 20 million member Manchu nation would not have arisen shortly thereafter.

It is generally agreed that the Jurchens were the ancestors of the Manchus but it is actually unknown as to what language the Jurchens actually spoke and some anthropological studies in Beijing have shown that they were largely assimilated during Yuan and Ming times (consult warhead for this). Furthermore, I never claimed that all Tungusic peoples moved out of Manchuria and mixed with the "Han" population and it is possible that the Manchus may have descended from other Tungusic peoples living in Manchuria at the time if the theory that they weren't the descendants of the Jurchens is true.

In addition, it was obvious some non-Han adopted Han names and called themselves Han. Many members of the Tang aristocracy were mixed with the Xianbei while Tang Tai Zong relocated 100,000 Tujue to serve for the Tang when he defeated them in 630 AD. You must be stupid if you think that all those 100,000 Tujue just died off or maintained some sort of homogenous caste since there isn't any record of such. Furthermore, it was quite likely that at least some would marry a Han since they served under the Tang and became sinicized themselves. That is not to say that all Han would contain Tujue blood but that some Han people would quite likely carry some of their genes. There are various cases of this sort in Chinese history.

As stated in 直隸總督's post, the 1206 census of the Jin had 48,490,000 people of which about 6 million were considered Jurchens. It is quite likely that the remaining 42,490,000 people that were classifed as "Han" could contain Jurchens as well as Khitans or maybe even some descendants of the Shatuo Tujue of the 5 Dynasties period since they would often call themselves Han on the basis that they adopted Han customs and dress, which indicates that they didn't necessarily have to contain Han blood to be considered Han. In fact, the Jin dynasty was quite supportive of sinicization. As for their numbers, we wouldn't know since the primary sources don't actually give any figure regarding the number of "Han converts".

A. plus, despite what southern centric types say, the population of Northern China never dropped below 50 million during the Jin Dynsaty. therefore, 500,000 nuzhen versus 50 million Han, you do the math

Where did you get 500,000 Jurchens? Source? And just because the "Han" outnumbered the Jurchens, does that necessarily mean that no "Han" would contain Jurchen blood? You seem to be implying that. All I meant when I said that the genetic makeup of the Han population was mixed is that the Han population would contain descendants of the sinicized non-Han that either mixed or didn't mixed with some Han people, yet they still refer to themselves as Han perhaps being ignorant that there is a possibility that some of their ancestors could've been a non-Han. Since we aren't sure of the actual number of these descendants among the Han population since it is apparent that not every person that referred to himself/herself as a Han had DNA testing, it would be unsafe to assume that the entire northern Han population were homogenous and ethnically "pure Han". You seem to be propogating that unfounded assumption, and, if you do, all I can say is that you are indeed a fu-king idiotic extreme Chinese nationalist not worth debating with on a professional level.

And you are forgetting that the "Han" population at the time of the Jurchen Jin dynasty contained people that were descended from earlier non-Han peoples that would include groups from the Five Hu and Eastern Jin - North/South Dynasties Period and later peoples like some sinicized Ashina Tujue, Shatuo Tujue, and sinicized Khitan (again you can't just idiotically assume that they never mixed with some Han and all died off).

This post has been edited by UnregisteredUser: Feb 27 2005, 06:49 AM

[UnregisteredUser]

more nomad groups

1. first off, during the Northern and Southern Dynasties era, Northern China still had the majority population. most sources (both Chinese and western scholarship into this subject) places the ratio 2:1 in population with the North on the top. despite what idiots say, the areas below the YangZi river(Southern China) were at first completely alien to Han Chinese. migration to the areas RIGHTBELOWthe YangZi did not begin at all until this era (i won't even mention deep southern coastal provinces, there are clear records from as late as the Ming that say Guangdong,etc were still minority savage controlled areas)

And once again, I never contested that the population of China Proper at the tiem of the 5 Hu time were largely concentrated in the north. In fact, I've read many sources from books that say that the north still had the larger population. The only unreliable sources I've come across so far about the north-south population controversy are usually many of those on the internet posted by some ignorant people. But you seem to be overreacting on topics like these, which makes me think you are an extreme Chinese nationalist trying to establish some type of "superior northern Han" stance over southern Han by trying to imply that "northern Han" would contain more ethnically "pure Han lineage" than southern Han.

2. the Xianbei at this time were a confederation of different tribes, the most successful were the Tuoba 拓跋 who along with indigenous Han Chinese founded the Northern Wei(this entire era is characterized by hybrid dynasties both in the north and south). not all the other Xianbei were so open to Sinicization.

You haven't given me a single figure from a reliable source regarding the Xianbei and Han populations at this time so you can't even begin to make idiotic assumptions typical of your type about how the majority of the Han people at this time would not have mixed with the Xianbei. While I will not doubt that the Tuoba indeed used Han auxiliaries in their wars of conquest, the ruling elite of the Northern Wei were no doubt the Turkic-speaking Tuoba Xianbei. And the Northern Wei actually greatly encouraged sinicization at this time, and there certainly Xianbei that opposed sinicization, as evidenced by the uprising in 524 AD.

There was also an interesting characteristic of this period which can be called Xianbei-ization in which Han Chinese adopted Xianbei culture,etc. this phenomenon was as common as Sinicization at the time.

What a load of bull$hit. If "Xianbei-ization" was as common as sinicization, then why did the Xianbei die out as a separate existing ethnicity by the end of the North-South Dynasties Period? The fact was that sinicization got the upper-hand and the majority of the Xianbei in the Central Plains at the time were already sinicized so your imaginary numbers of "Xianbei-ized Han" would not have existed in any significant number at all, otherwise there would be mention of entire groups of Xianbei during the Tang and subsequent periods, of which the fact is that there were none.

B. the Xianbei's descendandts are actually found all over east  and central asia. the hazarra of Afghanistan are Xianbei descendants. the Qidan were also a smaller tribe of the Xianbei confederatijon that did not Sinicize

WTF? Hazara were Xianbei? I haven't come across that claim yet but it could somewhat be argued since there is a possibility that the Hazara descended from the Chinggisid Mongols of the 13th century who were descended from the Shi-wei who can be linked to the Xianbei or earlier proto-Mongolic groups that migrated to Central Asia like the Kara-Khitai who were descended from the Liao Khitans, who can also be linked to the Xianbei. But the Hazara are just as likely to have descended from somewhat homogenous Turkic peoples who didn't mix with the local Iranians and Arabs and that who once inhabitted Afghanistan like the Oghuz or the Iranian Seljuks.

3. the Xiong Nu-after the fall of the Han dynasty, then the three kingdoms and finally the shortlived jin晉, the Xiong Nu gained enough power to make it into the central part of Huabei. once again, at this period, the Xiong Nu became two entities. the southern Xiong Nu became Sinicized while the northern Xiong Nu did not.

Again, you haven't given me a single figure from a reliable source regarding the Xiongnu and Han populations at this time so you can't even begin to make idiotic assumptions typical of your type about how the majority of the Han people at this time would not have mixed with the Xiongnu.

B. also interesting, is the fact that a Xiong Nu chief claimed to be the true heir to the Han dynasty royal family because he was descended from a Han princess

That was the Xiongnu-Han hybrid Liu Yuan who overthrew the Western Jin Dynasty.

You had completely ignored other non-Han groups throughout China's history that were sinicized or partially sinicized. In fact, you haven't given any numbers from reliable sources regarding their populations in China Proper so you can't even begin to make your baseless assumptions. These groups would include the Yuezhi and Sogdian minorities in Gansu, Di, Qiang, Ding-ling (I know they couldn't have numbered alot since their presence in the Central Plains was rather minor and the majority became the Gao-che/Tiele tribes on the Central Asian steppe during Sui-Tang times), Jie (they were said to be entirely massacred by Ran Min), some Ashina Tujue, and Shatuo Tujue (yes, their presence in the Central Plains was major since 3 out of the 5 major dynasties of the Central Plains during the time of the 5 Dynasties 10 Kingdoms were established by Shatuo Tujue and there are accounts of whole regiments of Shatuo Tujue serving in the ranks of the 5 Dynasties). There are probably more I didn't bring up now off the top of my head.

In conclusion, you showed yourself to be an idiotic moron who completely misread my posts.

This post has been edited by UnregisteredUser: Feb 27 2005, 07:13 AM

[UnregisteredUser]

go get Imperial China 900 Ad-1800 AD by F.W Motte. its over 1000 pages long and has in its bibliography over 600 sources. he is an expert regarding nomadic groups. over the years in college, i've read most of the sources hes listed(i've tracked down 250 articles he used as source regarding the nomadic groups)

Oh reeally? Do exactly list every single one of those 250 articles you claimed Motte used as a source that you tracked down and verify with justification how every single one of those articles is reliable.

the NuZhen population could not have exceeded 1.5 million. they're nomads, its quite difficult to have many kids when you're on a horse hunting and raiding all day. its common sense.

The population restrictions of the steppe nomads are due to the fact that there was not an abundance of food on the steppes since the land was not suitable for large-scale agriculture and that many would've died off due to constant warfare among the steppe tribes.

[UnregisteredUser]

Then to consider any of Eastern Russia russian is wrong as well, since there are many minorities there.  Furthermore, the word 'Manchuria' wasn't really used until rather recent times.  It was called Liaodong 遼東 in ancient times, Dongsansheng 東三省 during Late Qing and ROC, or Dongbei 東北 in PRC era.

Regarding the Sino-Russian history in that area:
The Treaty of Nerchinsk, which was signed on August 27, 1689 fixed the border between Tsarist Russia and Qing China as running along the watershed of the Stanovoy mountains and the River Ergun.  The Amur river basin also was given to the Chinese.

The Treaty of Aigun was signed on May 16, 1858 in which the Chinese ceded the northern bank of the Amur River and the area between the Ussuri River and the Sea of Japan to Russia. In May 1860, the Chinese were forced to sign a "Special Tianjin Treaty" that enabled the Russians to enjoy the same "favored nation" status that was previously granted to the French and the British. On November 14, 1860, the treaty of Beijing confirmed the Russian the Treaty of Aigun in which Russia now owned the area known today as Vladivostock, free trade, and extra territories including Usuri Province.

According to your logic above, this means that parts of northern Manchuria, including the northern bank of the Amur River and the area between the Ussuri River and the Sea of Japan that had once belonged to the Qing Empire is now "rightfully" Russia's. So you're not contesting that, right? And that also means that in the future if Russia or the US or any other nation conquers the PRC, that means the PRC is rightfully theirs, right? So if this happened, then you can shut your trap if you were to propose that the PRC is Chinese territory, right?

My point in bringing this up? It seems to me you're extremely one-sided and biased, which is not surprising and as expected from your extremely pro-China nationalistic views in which you have showed that you can only spill out loads and loads of extreme Chinese nationalistic trash/bull$hit and nothing else. The fact is that there is no such thing as "this territory is rightfully ours" if "rightfully" means who owned it first since the PRC might as well give up Inner Mongolia, Xinjiang, Tibet, Manchuria, and the region below the Yangzi River since they weren't originally inhabitted by "Han people", who were considered the only "Chinese people" in ancient times (I'm not going by modern political interpretation of "Chinese" so don't spill out your bull$hit). If we go by "might makes right", then the Western conquest of the world is pretty much justified, including the US occupation of Iraq.

Oh yes, and I'm running out of time right now so I'll reply to your other posts later.

This post has been edited by UnregisteredUser: Feb 27 2005, 08:20 AM

[Adee]

^Interesting posts, but you should've pm the guy or make a seperate thread. This is suppose to be a light Mongolian chat thread.

[Mgl_Style]

thank you adee

[PervertBurger]

Please put pics up of:

Mongolian food
Superstar
Model
Clothes

thank (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_redface.gif)

[Red Keshik]

Hellyeah, we are good drinkers! Vodka, parties, all night! Thats Mongolian style right there!

[華夏無產]

Hellyeah, we are good drinkers! Vodka, parties, all night! Thats Mongolian style right there!

lol, I'd like Mongolia then, I can drink half a liter of vodka or more in one night...

[Red Keshik]

You must have Mongolian in you man! I didnt know Chinese drank so much, what minority are you?

[華夏無產]

You must have Mongolian in you man! I didnt know Chinese drank so much, what minority are you?

I'm actually 100% (Northern) Han as far back as I can tell. But some Chinese people do drink a lot, especially those from the rural north.

[blue_sky]

Hello world. Here is an another Mongolian.
I am from Ulaanbaatar, the capital city of Independent Mongolia.

IN MONGOLIAN. Sain uu Mongolhuu and MGL_Style. Ta nar ch nadguigeer neleed uzej taraa shiv. Odoo gurvuulaa alj ognoo.

IN ENGLISH. Ok guys let's talk and chat.

[blue_sky]

Hello world. Here is an another Mongolian.
I am from Ulaanbaatar, the capital city of Independent Mongolia.

IN MONGOLIAN. Sain uu Mongolhuu and MGL_Style. Ta nar ch nadguigeer neleed uzej taraa shiv. Odoo gurvuulaa alj ognoo.

IN ENGLISH. Ok guys let's talk and chat. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_wink.gif) (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/deal.gif) (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif) (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/dragonwelcome.gif) (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/yahoo.gif) (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/victory.gif)

[blue_sky]

reg keshik, turtle, behappy Ta nar ch bas neleed uzjeedee. Odoo bugdeeree uragshaa.
(IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggthumpup.gif) (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif) 2 (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_wink.gif) (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_smile.gif) (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/yahoo.gif) (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/victory.gif)