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The original names for the Khmer tens: 30-90
preahvihear
post Aug 29 2008, 01:26 AM
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Hi Everyone,

I want to begin with a quote from Applepannic that says
QUOTE
:[Khmer] native words would have likely been compounds. They [Khmers] obviously had a system to count over twenty, but seeing how the word for twenty is m'peah suggest that numbers before one hundred were based on twenty decimals. One hundred divided by twenty is five, the base number for counting Khmer. I base this on my observation that Khmer tends to shorten word with the numeral classifier muy in front to a cluster of just "m". For example, muy pleah (one moment) becomes m'pleah. What the numeral [names] were before you'll have to do some digging."


Diggig I did and I think I have discovered something worth reading. My challenge or project was to figure out the possible original Khmer names for the tens numbers from 30 through 90. At the present, the names for those tens numbers are claimed by others to be borrowed from either the Chinese or the Thais. For example, Penny Edwards, author of "Ethnic Chinese in Cambodia" wrote that the Khmer numerals from thirty to ninety (SAMSEP, SAESEP, HASEP, HOKSEP, CHETSEP, PAETSEP, KAWSEP) were all borrowed from Chinese because it is evident that Cambodia and China had trade relations since 225 AD and the great numbers of Chinese merchants settling in the country in the ancient time. On the contrary, Antonio Graceffo, author of "On Learning the Awful Khmer Language", wrote that from thirty to one-hundred, the Khmer numeral names are the same as in Thai. Thirdly, some maintain that the Thais only came in contact with the Khmer in a much later time and actually got their numbers from the Khmers instead because of the exact copy of the Khmer number symbols and some of the numeral names like sone, roy, pon, mern, saen, and lean. Anyway, that is another issue that needs to be sorted out at another time.

Remember also that unlike in Thai or Chinese (Cantonese) where "samsep = 3 tens; saesep = 4 tens; hasep = 5 tens; hoksep = 6 tens; chetsep = 7 tens; paetsep = 8 tens; kawsep = 9 tens", in Khmer, samsep simply means 30; saesep = 40; hasep = 50; hoksep = 60; chetsep = 70; paetsep = 80; kawsep = 90.

Off the top of my head, I understand that the Khmer number system uses bases 5 and 10 but never a base 20 until Applepannic suggested so. He said, "They [Khmers] obviously had a system to count over twenty, but seeing how the word for twenty is m'peah suggest that numbers before one hundred were based on twenty decimals. One hundred divided by twenty is five, the base number for counting Khmer."

So then I had to consider base 20 in addition to bases 5 and 10. By considering, I mean looking at patterns how symbols in bases 5 and 20 are arranged and pronounced orally. That is really easy because of my accessibility to the Internet. I learned quickly that just like the base 10 system where numbers are grouped into 10's, in bases 5 and 20, numbers are grouped into 5's and 20's accordingly. Here is a visual of what I mean to say: (10, 20, 30,...) vs (5, 10, 15,...) vs (20, 40, 60,...) I had fun learning. For example, the French names of the numbers from 60 through 99 are based on a base-20 system: The number 82 is actually read as "quatre-vingt-deux (literally, four twenty[s] [and] two), while ninety-two is quatre-vingt-douze (literally, four twenty[s] [and] twelve)".

The next thing I had to do is to learn as much as I could about the Khmer various names for their numbers. So I asked here and there and I collected valuable Khmer number names that I had never heard before. Here is a list: Mouy dombor = 4; Mouy loe = 12; Mouy phloan = 40; Mouy kour = 2; Mouy slek = 400 or 10 phloan; 3 slek = 1200; 10 dombor = mouy phloan, 4 dombor = 16; mouy kot = ten million; 10 kot = 1 hundred million.

After that I examined the way our Khmer people say their the names of the numbers. Yep, strangely enough, the Khmers employ a combination of not just one or two but three different bases system. I say strange because our Khmer people alread have each unique symbol for each number from 0 through 9. This means that our number system is already designated to be a base 10 system from the get-go. embarassedlaugh.gif Other people who employed the bases 5 or 20 system only had three symbols the most. They had the one symbol, the five symbol, and the 20 symbol. That was it. Unlike them, we Khmers have had 10 unique symbols. Hahhah. However, when we say the name of each number, then we reveal our complicated geniuses to the world. Here, let me show you what I mean:

0 = sone;
1 = mouy;
2 = pi;
3 = bey;
4 = boun;
5 = bram; Base 5 system -- Observe below:
6 = bram mouy or literally 5+1
7 = bram pi/pil or literally 5+2
8 = bram bey or literally 5+3
9 = bram boun or literally 5+4
10 = dob. Base 10 system now. embarassedlaugh.gif
11 = dob mouy or literally 10+1
12 = dob pi or literally 10+2
13 = dob bey or literally 10+3
14 = dob boun or literally 10+4
15 = dob bram or literally 10+5
16 = dob bram mouy or literally 10+5+1
17 = dob bram pi or literally 10+5+2
18 = dob bram bey or literally 10+5+3
19 = dob bram boun or literally 10+5+9

20 = m'phey. Base 20 system now. embarassedlaugh.gif At this point I'd like to believe that the old Khmers said their number names based on the base 20 system. Why? Because of these biggest surviving clues that still survive in the present-day oral Khmer language. Those number names are "m'phey or 20" and "m'phlone or 40". This is a set of 20 and therefore a base 20 system. If these clues are accepted, then I can just generate or reactivate the old Khmer number names for the tens numbers with ease. If these clues are accepted, then I do believe that the Khmer numberals from 20 through 99 were based on base-20 system. Without further adieu, let me now lift the curtain and reveal the possible true Khmer names for the tens numbers of 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90 before the foreign influences as follows:

20 Mphey (existing evidence)

30 Mphey dob ???? 20+10

40 Mphloan (existing evidence)

50 Mphloan dob ???? 40+10

60 Mphloan Mphey ???? 40 + 20

70 Mphloan Mphey dob??? 40+20+10

80 Mphloan Mphloan??? 40+40

90 Mphloan Mphloan dob??? 40+40+10

100 = mouy roy. Base 10 system again. From 100 on up, the Khmers employ the base 10 system just like everyone else. It is nice to be a part of the world community. biggthumpup.gif

Mouy roy = 100
Mouy ponn = 1,000
Mouy mern = 10,000
Mouy senn = 100,000
Mouy Lean = 1,000,000
Mouy Koat = 10,000,000
100,000,000 Dop Kot

Other interesting Khmer number names that still survive:

mouy Dombor = 4
Mouy kour = 2
Mouy loe = 12
Mouy ploan = 40
Mouy roy = 100
Mouy slek = 400
Mouy ponn = 1,000
Mouy mern = 10,000
Mouy senn = 100,000
Mouy Lean = 1,000,000
Mouy Koat = 10,000,000

In retrospect, I am glad that the Khmer ancestors abandoned their base 20 number names and adopted the foreigner's base 10 number names instead.

I appreciate your input and correction. biggthumpup.gif
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Realpolitik
post Aug 29 2008, 01:31 AM
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hold on meng. i aint reading all that. $hit.
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chakra1
post Aug 29 2008, 09:15 AM
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QUOTE(preahvihear @ Aug 29 2008, 01:26 AM) [snapback]3898662[/snapback]
Hi Everyone,

I want to begin with a quote from Applepannic that says

Diggig I did and I think I have discovered something worth reading. My challenge or project was to figure out the possible original Khmer names for the tens numbers from 30 through 90. At the present, the names for those tens numbers are claimed by others to be borrowed from either the Chinese or the Thais. For example, Penny Edwards, author of "Ethnic Chinese in Cambodia" wrote that the Khmer numerals from thirty to ninety (SAMSEP, SAESEP, HASEP, HOKSEP, CHETSEP, PAETSEP, KAWSEP) were all borrowed from Chinese because it is evident that Cambodia and China had trade relations since 225 AD and the great numbers of Chinese merchants settling in the country in the ancient time. On the contrary, Antonio Graceffo, author of "On Learning the Awful Khmer Language", wrote that from thirty to one-hundred, the Khmer numeral names are the same as in Thai. Thirdly, some maintain that the Thais only came in contact with the Khmer in a much later time and actually got their numbers from the Khmers instead because of the exact copy of the Khmer number symbols and some of the numeral names like sone, roy, pon, mern, saen, and lean. Anyway, that is another issue that needs to be sorted out at another time.

Remember also that unlike in Thai or Chinese (Cantonese) where "samsep = 3 tens; saesep = 4 tens; hasep = 5 tens; hoksep = 6 tens; chetsep = 7 tens; paetsep = 8 tens; kawsep = 9 tens", in Khmer, samsep simply means 30; saesep = 40; hasep = 50; hoksep = 60; chetsep = 70; paetsep = 80; kawsep = 90.

Off the top of my head, I understand that the Khmer number system uses bases 5 and 10 but never a base 20 until Applepannic suggested so. He said, "They [Khmers] obviously had a system to count over twenty, but seeing how the word for twenty is m'peah suggest that numbers before one hundred were based on twenty decimals. One hundred divided by twenty is five, the base number for counting Khmer."

So then I had to consider base 20 in addition to bases 5 and 10. By considering, I mean looking at patterns how symbols in bases 5 and 20 are arranged and pronounced orally. That is really easy because of my accessibility to the Internet. I learned quickly that just like the base 10 system where numbers are grouped into 10's, in bases 5 and 20, numbers are grouped into 5's and 20's accordingly. Here is a visual of what I mean to say: (10, 20, 30,...) vs (5, 10, 15,...) vs (20, 40, 60,...) I had fun learning. For example, the French names of the numbers from 60 through 99 are based on a base-20 system: The number 82 is actually read as "quatre-vingt-deux (literally, four twenty[s] [and] two), while ninety-two is quatre-vingt-douze (literally, four twenty[s] [and] twelve)".

The next thing I had to do is to learn as much as I could about the Khmer various names for their numbers. So I asked here and there and I collected valuable Khmer number names that I had never heard before. Here is a list: Mouy dombor = 4; Mouy loe = 12; Mouy phloan = 40; Mouy kour = 2; Mouy slek = 400 or 10 phloan; 3 slek = 1200; 10 dombor = mouy phloan, 4 dombor = 16; mouy kot = ten million; 10 kot = 1 hundred million.

After that I examined the way our Khmer people say their the names of the numbers. Yep, strangely enough, the Khmers employ a combination of not just one or two but three different bases system. I say strange because our Khmer people alread have each unique symbol for each number from 0 through 9. This means that our number system is already designated to be a base 10 system from the get-go. embarassedlaugh.gif Other people who employed the bases 5 or 20 system only had three symbols the most. They had the one symbol, the five symbol, and the 20 symbol. That was it. Unlike them, we Khmers have had 10 unique symbols. Hahhah. However, when we say the name of each number, then we reveal our complicated geniuses to the world. Here, let me show you what I mean:

0 = sone;
1 = mouy;
2 = pi;
3 = bey;
4 = boun;
5 = bram; Base 5 system -- Observe below:
6 = bram mouy or literally 5+1
7 = bram pi/pil or literally 5+2
8 = bram bey or literally 5+3
9 = bram boun or literally 5+4
10 = dob. Base 10 system now. embarassedlaugh.gif
11 = dob mouy or literally 10+1
12 = dob pi or literally 10+2
13 = dob bey or literally 10+3
14 = dob boun or literally 10+4
15 = dob bram or literally 10+5
16 = dob bram mouy or literally 10+5+1
17 = dob bram pi or literally 10+5+2
18 = dob bram bey or literally 10+5+3
19 = dob bram boun or literally 10+5+9

20 = m'phey. Base 20 system now. embarassedlaugh.gif At this point I'd like to believe that the old Khmers said their number names based on the base 20 system. Why? Because of these biggest surviving clues that still survive in the present-day oral Khmer language. Those number names are "m'phey or 20" and "m'phlone or 40". This is a set of 20 and therefore a base 20 system. If these clues are accepted, then I can just generate or reactivate the old Khmer number names for the tens numbers with ease. If these clues are accepted, then I do believe that the Khmer numberals from 20 through 99 were based on base-20 system. Without further adieu, let me now lift the curtain and reveal the possible true Khmer names for the tens numbers of 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90 before the foreign influences as follows:

20 Mphey (existing evidence)

30 Mphey dob ???? 20+10

40 Mphloan (existing evidence)

50 Mphloan dob ???? 40+10

60 Mphloan Mphey ???? 40 + 20

70 Mphloan Mphey dob??? 40+20+10

80 Mphloan Mphloan??? 40+40

90 Mphloan Mphloan dob??? 40+40+10

100 = mouy roy. Base 10 system again. From 100 on up, the Khmers employ the base 10 system just like everyone else. It is nice to be a part of the world community. biggthumpup.gif

Mouy roy = 100
Mouy ponn = 1,000
Mouy mern = 10,000
Mouy senn = 100,000
Mouy Lean = 1,000,000
Mouy Koat = 10,000,000
100,000,000 Dop Kot

Other interesting Khmer number names that still survive:

mouy Dombor = 4
Mouy kour = 2
Mouy loe = 12
Mouy ploan = 40
Mouy roy = 100
Mouy slek = 400
Mouy ponn = 1,000
Mouy mern = 10,000
Mouy senn = 100,000
Mouy Lean = 1,000,000
Mouy Koat = 10,000,000

In retrospect, I am glad that the Khmer ancestors abandoned their base 20 number names and adopted the foreigner's base 10 number names instead.

I appreciate your input and correction. biggthumpup.gif


i think old khmer number name :
bey' dop = 30
boun' dop=40
bram' dop=50
bram muy' dop=60
bram pil' dop =70
bram bey' dop =80
bram boun' dop =90
i think the reason old khmer abandoned these name because sound like 13 , 14 ...19
most khmer today say ma'dop =11 pi'dop=12 bey'dop =13 ...bram boun'dop=19
today khmer bey'dop =13 old khmer bey'dop =30


This post has been edited by chakra1: Aug 29 2008, 09:22 AM
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thewiseguy
post Aug 29 2008, 09:17 AM
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QUOTE(chakra1 @ Aug 29 2008, 07:15 AM) [snapback]3899185[/snapback]
i think old khmer number name :
bey dop = 30
boun dop=40
bram dop=50
bram muy dop=60
bram pil dop =70
bram bey dop =80
bram boun dop =90
i think the reason old khmer abandoned these name because sound like 13 , 14 ...19
most khmer today say ma'dop =11 pi/dop=12 bey'dop =13 ...bram boun'dop=19



i like that better than what we use now.
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Congradufuckalat...
post Aug 29 2008, 10:37 AM
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Hell I can't even count passed 5 in khmer!
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noyume
post Aug 29 2008, 01:49 PM
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QUOTE(chakra1 @ Aug 29 2008, 09:15 AM) [snapback]3899185[/snapback]
i think old khmer number name :
bey' dop = 30
boun' dop=40
bram' dop=50
bram muy' dop=60
bram pil' dop =70
bram bey' dop =80
bram boun' dop =90
i think the reason old khmer abandoned these name because sound like 13 , 14 ...19
most khmer today say ma'dop =11 pi'dop=12 bey'dop =13 ...bram boun'dop=19
today khmer bey'dop =13 old khmer bey'dop =30


i hear a lot of old khmer ppl including my parents say bey'dop and boun'dop instead of dop'bey or dop'boun. i don't know why they switch it around.
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preahvihear
post Aug 29 2008, 02:37 PM
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QUOTE(chakra1 @ Aug 29 2008, 09:15 AM) [snapback]3899185[/snapback]
i think old khmer number name :
bey' dop = 30
boun' dop=40
bram' dop=50
bram muy' dop=60
bram pil' dop =70
bram bey' dop =80
bram boun' dop =90
i think the reason old khmer abandoned these name because sound like 13 , 14 ...19 most khmer today say ma'dop =11 pi'dop=12 bey'dop =13 ...bram boun'dop=19 today khmer bey'dop =13 old khmer bey'dop =30


Hi Chakra1,

I like your observation. I am glad that you contribute to the thread. I especially like your memory of the Khmer pig Latin (for a lack of a better term) for the spoken Khmer number counting from 11-19. I have overlooked that important aspect of the Khmer number names. I also heard people say for 11 as m'dondop, 12 as pi dondop, 13 as bey dondop, 14 as boun dondop, 15 as pram dondop, 16 as pram mouy dondop, 17 as pram pi dondop, 18 as pram bey dondop, and 19 as pram boun dondop. Your observation also makes me think of other Khmer number names as well. I am trying to consider when do the old Khmer add their numbers and when they multiply their numbers.

Consider:
6 = pram mouy = 5+1
7 = pram pi = 5+2
8 = pram bey = 5+3
9= pram boun = 5+4

11= dop mouy = 10+1 or m'dondop
12= dop pi = 10+2 or pi dondop
13=dop bey=10+3 or bey dondop
14=dop boun=10+4 or boun dondop
15=dop pram=10+5 or bram dondop
16=dop pram mouy=10+5+1 or bram mouy dondop
17=dop pram pi=10+5+2 or bram pi dondop
18=dop pram bey=10+5+3 or bram bey dondop
19=dop pram boun=10+5+4 or bram boun dondop

Saying "bey dondop" is not the same as saying "bey dop" because "bey dondop is just a slang of dop bey which means 10+3, wherease "bey dop" means "3 tens" or 30. Number 13 is not the same as 30. You are following the logic of the Thai/Chinese number system when you say "bey dop or sam sep, boun dop or sae sep, pram dop or har sep, pram mouy dop or hok sep, pram pi dop or chet sep, pram bey dop paet sep, and pram boun dop or kaow sep." It works really well and beautifully because in Chinese and Thais, "sep" means 10. So when a Chinese or a Thai says "sam sep", the person is actually saying that there are a group of 10 three times or 3X10 = 30. I wish the old Khmer would say something like that, but they didn't. OK. You don't believe me. Let me prove it. When the old Khmer borrowed those numberal names of the tens from the Chinese/Thai or whatever, they used those names to mean simply as the tens and that was it. When a Thai or a Chinese say "kaow sep", they actually mean to say there are a group of 10 nine times or 9 tens or 90. When a Khmer person says "Kaow sep", we simply mean the name of this number of 90. That is it. We don't ever mean that there are a group of 10 nine times or stuff like that. Nope. You still don't believe me. Consider this: When a Thai person says "hok", that person simply says the name of the symbol 6. That is it. The name only. There is no meaning after that. However, when a Khmer person says "pram mouy" for the symbol 6, the person is actually saying 5 and 1.

When a Khmer says Kaowsep pram for 95, the person is saying there are a group of 90 and then 5 more. The old Khmer used different grouping concepts such as a group of 5's, a group of 10's, and a group of 20's. When a Thai person says Kaow (9) sep (10) har (5), that person is really saying there are 9 groups of 10 and then 5 more. This shows that the old Khmer Khmer did not exclusively depend only on the grouping of 10's. If they were dependent only on the grouping of 10's, they would never need to borrow those names from the Chinese or Thais because all they had to do is to translate it directly. Those borrowed names sound just as long anyway. For example, Thai "sarm (3) sep (10)" can be translated into Khmer as "bey (3) dop (10)". -- Two syllable words sound just the same, but the old Khmers did not choose that option, but decided to borrow it completely to replace their native number names due to the different conceptual understanding of the number grouping of the old Khmers.

So at the present we are left with these names:

10 (dop) 20 (m'phey) 30 (unknown) 40 (m'phloan) 50 (unknown) 60 (unknown) 70(unknown) 80 (unknown) 90 (unknown) ... 400(m'slek)

These specific surviving number names show that the old Khmers called their tens number based on a grouping of 20's as is evident by specific names of 20 (20 to the 1 power), 40 (20 and 20), and 400 (20 to 2 power).

So I think it was unlikely that the old Khmers used the number names as you suggested above. Again if it is that easy, the old Khmer would have translated and adopted the idea already, but they DIDN'T because the Khmer minds saw number grouping differently.
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preahvihear
post Aug 29 2008, 03:46 PM
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QUOTE(Congradufu-kalations @ Aug 29 2008, 10:37 AM) [snapback]3899291[/snapback]
Hell I can't even count passed 5 in khmer!


Don't feel frustrated, Congrad. Take action now and it is never too late to learn. I will personally teach. It is very easy. Knowing how to say the names of the Khmer numerals will help know what other Khmer-speaking people are saying and it will also help you see the deep history of the Khmer conceptual understanding of number grouping.

Since you already know from 0 to 5, I will now teach you how to say from 6 to 9, then the tens, then the hundreds, the thousands, and the millions.

sone 0
mouy 1
pi 2
bey 3
boun 4
bram 5
-------------------------
bram mouy 6
bram pi 7
bram bey 8
bram boun 9
-----------------------
From numberal 10 on up, the Khmer use a base 10 system like everyone else. This means the Khmer go by groups of 10's.

dob = 10
dob mouy 10+1
dob pi 10 +2
dob bey 10+3
dob boun 10+4
dob bram 10+5
dob bram mouy 10+5+1
dob bram pi 10+4+2
dob bram bey 10+5+3
dob bram boun 10+5+4

m'phey = 20. You count on by adding each number the same way you count the the teen numbers above.

sarmsep = 30.

saesep = 40

harsep = 50

hokesep = 60

chetsep = 70

paetsep = 80

kaowsep = 90
------------------------------------
mouy roy or m'roy = 100
mouy ponn or m'ponn = 1,000
mouy mern or m'mern = 10,000
mouy saen or m'saen = 100,000
-----------------------------------------
mouy lean or m'lean = 1,000,000
mouy kot = 10,000,000

If the number is very large you can just base it on lean or kot. Also remember that some modern Khmer like to translate and speak the number names the way of the Europeans or the Americans. Consider this number 578,890. Typical Khmer would say: Harsep pram pi mern, pram bey ponn, pram bey roy kaowsep. A fashionable Khmer would say like this instead: Pram roy chetsep pram bey ponn, prambey roy kaowsep. This concept is easily understood if you consider the two different ways the Americans read their number of 1200. Some would say just "Twelve hundred", while others say "One thousand, two hundred".

Well that is all there is to it. I know it seems confusing, but it is not that hard. Practice will make perfect. biggthumpup.gif





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chakra1
post Aug 29 2008, 04:42 PM
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QUOTE(preahvihear @ Aug 29 2008, 02:37 PM) [snapback]3899561[/snapback]
Hi Chakra1,

I like your observation. I am glad that you contribute to the thread. I especially like your memory of the Khmer pig Latin (for a lack of a better term) for the spoken Khmer number counting from 11-19. I have overlooked that important aspect of the Khmer number names. I also heard people say for 11 as m'dondop, 12 as pi dondop, 13 as bey dondop, 14 as boun dondop, 15 as pram dondop, 16 as pram mouy dondop, 17 as pram pi dondop, 18 as pram bey dondop, and 19 as pram boun dondop. Your observation also makes me think of other Khmer number names as well. I am trying to consider when do the old Khmer add their numbers and when they multiply their numbers.

Consider:
6 = pram mouy = 5+1
7 = pram pi = 5+2
8 = pram bey = 5+3
9= pram boun = 5+4

11= dop mouy = 10+1 or m'dondop
12= dop pi = 10+2 or pi dondop
13=dop bey=10+3 or bey dondop
14=dop boun=10+4 or boun dondop
15=dop pram=10+5 or bram dondop
16=dop pram mouy=10+5+1 or bram mouy dondop
17=dop pram pi=10+5+2 or bram pi dondop
18=dop pram bey=10+5+3 or bram bey dondop
19=dop pram boun=10+5+4 or bram boun dondop

Saying "bey dondop" is not the same as saying "bey dop" because "bey dondop is just a slang of dop bey which means 10+3, wherease "bey dop" means "3 tens" or 30. Number 13 is not the same as 30. You are following the logic of the Thai/Chinese number system when you say "bey dop or sam sep, boun dop or sae sep, pram dop or har sep, pram mouy dop or hok sep, pram pi dop or chet sep, pram bey dop paet sep, and pram boun dop or kaow sep." It works really well and beautifully because in Chinese and Thais, "sep" means 10. So when a Chinese or a Thai says "sam sep", the person is actually saying that there are a group of 10 three times or 3X10 = 30. I wish the old Khmer would say something like that, but they didn't. OK. You don't believe me. Let me prove it. When the old Khmer borrowed those numberal names of the tens from the Chinese/Thai or whatever, they used those names to mean simply as the tens and that was it. When a Thai or a Chinese say "kaow sep", they actually mean to say there are a group of 10 nine times or 9 tens or 90. When a Khmer person says "Kaow sep", we simply mean the name of this number of 90. That is it. We don't ever mean that there are a group of 10 nine times or stuff like that. Nope. You still don't believe me. Consider this: When a Thai person says "hok", that person simply says the name of the symbol 6. That is it. The name only. There is no meaning after that. However, when a Khmer person says "pram mouy" for the symbol 6, the person is actually saying 5 and 1.

When a Khmer says Kaowsep pram for 95, the person is saying there are a group of 90 and then 5 more. The old Khmer used different grouping concepts such as a group of 5's, a group of 10's, and a group of 20's. When a Thai person says Kaow (9) sep (10) har (5), that person is really saying there are 9 groups of 10 and then 5 more. This shows that the old Khmer Khmer did not exclusively depend only on the grouping of 10's. If they were dependent only on the grouping of 10's, they would never need to borrow those names from the Chinese or Thais because all they had to do is to translate it directly. Those borrowed names sound just as long anyway. For example, Thai "sarm (3) sep (10)" can be translated into Khmer as "bey (3) dop (10)". -- Two syllable words sound just the same, but the old Khmers did not choose that option, but decided to borrow it completely to replace their native number names due to the different conceptual understanding of the number grouping of the old Khmers.

So at the present we are left with these names:

10 (dop) 20 (m'phey) 30 (unknown) 40 (m'phloan) 50 (unknown) 60 (unknown) 70(unknown) 80 (unknown) 90 (unknown) ... 400(m'slek)

These specific surviving number names show that the old Khmers called their tens number based on a grouping of 20's as is evident by specific names of 20 (20 to the 1 power), 40 (20 and 20), and 400 (20 to 2 power).

So I think it was unlikely that the old Khmers used the number names as you suggested above. Again if it is that easy, the old Khmer would have translated and adopted the idea already, but they DIDN'T because the Khmer minds saw number grouping differently.



the old time khmer king employ china man as tax colector that the reason i think why today number name 30 to 90
sound like chinese . i still think khmer number base on 10 .
mouy dombor = 4
mouy ploan = 4 x 10 =40
mouy slek = 40 x 10 = 400
mouy = 1
dop = 1 x10 = 10
roy = 10 x10 =100
ponn = 100 x 10 = 1000
mern = 1000 x10 = 10000
saen = 10000 x 10 = 100000
lean = 100000 x 10 = 1000000
koat = 1000000 x 10 = 10000000
for number 20 khmer have to come up with new name because we can't call 20 dop'dop
will be like mouy roy= 100 (10 x10 )
or call 20 bram'boun ( 5x4=20 ) will be same number 9 ( 5+4=9)
that why i still think old khmer name for number 30 to 90
bey'dop = 30
boun'dop =40
bram'dop =50
brammouy'dop =60
brampi'dop = 70
brambey'dop =80
bramboun'dop = 90


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preahvihear
post Aug 29 2008, 10:19 PM
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QUOTE(chakra1 @ Aug 29 2008, 04:42 PM) [snapback]3899815[/snapback]
the old time khmer king employ china man as tax colector that the reason i think why today number name 30 to 90
sound like chinese . i still think khmer number base on 10 .
mouy dombor = 4
mouy ploan = 4 x 10 =40
mouy slek = 40 x 10 = 400
mouy = 1
dop = 1 x10 = 10
roy = 10 x10 =100
ponn = 100 x 10 = 1000
mern = 1000 x10 = 10000
saen = 10000 x 10 = 100000
lean = 100000 x 10 = 1000000
koat = 1000000 x 10 = 10000000
for number 20 khmer have to come up with new name because we can't call 20 dop'dop will be like mouy roy= 100 (10 x10 )
or call 20 bram'boun ( 5x4=20 ) will be same number 9 ( 5+4=9)
that why i still think old khmer name for number 30 to 90
bey'dop = 30
boun'dop =40
bram'dop =50
brammouy'dop =60
brampi'dop = 70
brambey'dop =80
bramboun'dop = 90


Hello again Chakra1, I agree with you that if the old Khmers were exclusively following the base-10 system, then of course, your suggestion works very well. My problem is that the existing evidence reveals a base 20 instead. Why do they have to create a specific word of "m'phey" for number 20, if they already understood the base-10 system. Why didn't they just say "pi dop" like the Chinese or the Thais? If the old Khmers understood the base-10 really well, then it would not even make sense to say "dop'dop" as you suggested. Remember also that the old Khmers did not say five'five either for number 10. They created a new term called dop for number 10. This shows that they stop using base-5 system. As for number 40, please note that they have their own specific word as well called "M'phloan", not "boun'dop" as you suggested. I don't know, but I am just working with the given evidence. That is all. The more I look at the Khmer numerals, the more I see that the old Khmers seemed to fixate only with sets of numbers.

For example,

A set of five (pram), but not five'five for number 10, but a set of ten (dop) instead, but not ten ten for number 20, but a set of twenty (m'phey) instead, a set of sarmsep or 30 instead of 3 dops, a set of saesep or 40 instead of 4 dops, a set of harsep or 50 instead of 5 dops, and so on and so forth. A set of roy instead of dopxdop, etc.

I don't know, perhaps you are right. However we definitely have different theories or bases to consider as our conclusions diverge.





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thewiseguy
post Aug 29 2008, 10:59 PM
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QUOTE(Congradufu-kalations @ Aug 29 2008, 08:37 AM) [snapback]3899291[/snapback]
Hell I can't even count passed 5 in khmer!



then u aren't a true khmer.
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Point_Dexter
post Aug 29 2008, 11:18 PM
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It was the chinese that taught our merchents the abacus. The abacuse is based on a system of tens, hence the names of tens from 30 on. My grandpa was a rice mill accountant, and used the abacus like a well oiled machine.
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preahvihear
post Aug 29 2008, 11:43 PM
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QUOTE(Point_Dexter @ Aug 29 2008, 11:18 PM) [snapback]3900493[/snapback]
It was the chinese that taught our merchents the abacus. The abacuse is based on a system of tens, hence the names of tens from 30 on. My grandpa was a rice mill accountant, and used the abacus like a well oiled machine.


This is another confirmation that the Khmer borrowed those "names of tens" of 30 and on from the Chinese. Cool. Hey PointDexter, do you think the old Khmers called their names of tens from 30 on based on the base-20 system or the base 10-system? Tell me what you think.


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Point_Dexter
post Aug 30 2008, 12:12 AM
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I would not know, but during the old bartering days, goods were measured in weight, not quantity. Gold had it own units of weight, produce has its own units, water cows pigs chickens ect has it own units, until one day the french came and used the metric system.

This post has been edited by Point_Dexter: Aug 30 2008, 12:14 AM
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P05T312
post Aug 31 2008, 06:39 PM
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very interesting
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applepannic
post Aug 31 2008, 08:19 PM
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Its interesting that Khmer for one hundred may be related to some Phnong languages for ten. I've read in a lingustic journal that Khmer numerals for five through ten was similar to those below.

Pearic
Pear mo:y pa: phe:k pho:n phram kedo:ng kenu:l keti: kensa: kenga:y
Bolyu ma:i 31 mbi 55 pa:i 55 pu:n 53 me 31 pju 53 pei 55 sa:m 53 s;en 53 ma:n 13
Samre mooy paar phee phoon pram kadang kanuul kentey kensaor raay
Chong moj bar pe? poon pram kadoong kaanuul kaatii kaasaal rai

If you're such a purist, just use for times.

Thirty = bei dop

forty = buon dop

Or
look for ancient Khmer numbers, they were recorded they must exist.
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preahvihear
post Aug 31 2008, 09:16 PM
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QUOTE(applepannic @ Aug 31 2008, 08:19 PM) [snapback]3903028[/snapback]
Its interesting that Khmer for one hundred may be related to some Phnong languages for ten. I've read in a lingustic journal that Khmer numerals for five through ten was similar to those below.

Pearic
Pear mo:y pa: phe:k pho:n phram kedo:ng kenu:l keti: kensa: kenga:y
Bolyu ma:i 31 mbi 55 pa:i 55 pu:n 53 me 31 pju 53 pei 55 sa:m 53 s;en 53 ma:n 13
Samre mooy paar phee phoon pram kadang kanuul kentey kensaor raay
Chong moj bar pe? poon pram kadoong kaanuul kaatii kaasaal rai

If you're such a purist, just use for times.

Thirty = bei dop

forty = buon dop

Or
look for ancient Khmer numbers, they were recorded they must exist.


Again, Applepannic, you are resourceful. I wonder what do theses Mon-Khmer language speakers call their tens (10,20,30,40,50,60,70,80,90)? If the Khmer numberal "roy" is possibly related to Mon-Khmer "raay or rai", then what is your opinion about the Thais influencing the Khmer numeral names for the tens? Do you have any resources on the Mon numbers? Can you also lead us to journals that discuss the "ancient Khmer numbers"?


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applepannic
post Aug 31 2008, 10:01 PM
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No, I've tried. Dates were marked in Khmer inscriptions, but they probably used numerals.

Mon is not, I speak NOT CLOSELY related to Khmer. It would be trying to compare Norwegian with English.

Here is all the Austroasiatic numbers.

Austro-Asiatic
Mon-Khmer
Bugan bo 55 bio 31 mtse 31 pau 33 mi 33 pio 33 pou 31 s 33 s;i 33 m 31
North
Viet-Muong
Sino-Viet. nh't nhi tam t' ngu~ luc th't bt cu|'u thp
Proto-Viet-Muong+ *moc *hal *pa *pon *?dm *khw *py *t'am *cin *mel
Vietnamese mt hai ba b'n nm su ba|y tm chn mu''i
Saigon mok. hay ba bng nm s,w by tm cn m`y
Muong mc5 hal2 ba2 bn3 tam2 khaw3 baj4 sam3 cin3 mu'o'l1
May (Ruc, Chut) moic hal pa pn dm rw pa,^,.)y thm cn miy
Thavung (Aheu) muut haal paa pon dam phalu? pih sam cin sip
Tay Pong (Hung) motj hal? pa pn dhm pru pal sam chin mal'
Arem mutj hel' pe pun dhm prau po' tha|m chn mu'o'i
Khasi
Khasi wey ?aar laay saaw san hnriw hnew phra khndaaw khat
Amwi mi o la si san thrau ynthla humphyo hunshia shipho
Palaungic
East
Palaung u: e:r u-a:i p'o:n p'an to:r pu:r ta: t'i:m k:r
Rumai hle a2 o2 p'Un2 p'an2 to2 pu2 ta2 tiim2 ky2
Danau a n wi po:n tho tun pei-ut tsm tsen m-kyen
Riang hk ka:r kwai k`pwon ka:u twl pul pret tim s'kll
West
Lamet mus ar lohe pun pan tal pul ta tim kel
Khamet muei la-a la-oi pn pan tol pool toh teem kel
Plang (Kontoi) keti?2 la?al1 la?oy2 lepun1 lephon1 leh2 hereh1 seti?1 setem1
Tai-loi ka-ti l-l l-oi pun pn
Kem Degne t la loye pne hone l hal leti setine koul
Wa t ra: loi bun pun lich a:lich st' sha:tim kau
Lawa teh la-a la-oei pa-erng puan laeh a-laeh staik staing kua
La (Vo) t'ie ra loi pon p'wan lie a-lie tai tim kow
Phalok (Parauk) ti a: o|i bon pn li ali di dim ko|
Son te: oi wun pu-on lu- -lu- dai dim kau
En tai r loi pun pn li -li-erh pin-dai dim ko
A Mok mo a: we: pun s`en tll n`pwi n't n'tum n'kyu
P'uman yi erh san p'un sa t'ao p'ua t'a t'i ch'ao
Pou Ma leun song sam si ha hok tiet piet kao sip
Hu ?am ka? ka?y ?aphn pathn
Khmuic
Khmu' m:j p:r p? pen h: hk ct pt kw sp
Mal meie-lae piar paeh pn piatee piapaeh jed piapon kao maehlach
Puc mt bil pe pn
Mrabri damoi baer paeh pn terng tn kool teeh gas gul
Yumbri (neremoy) (nakobe)
East
Katuic
So muai ba: bai pon so'ng tapet tapu:n tako:n take machhit
Bru muoi bar pi poun sau'ng tapot tapul takual takh muoi cht
Van Kieu mui bar pi pn so'n tapt tapu:l takul tak: macu':t
Suei moi bar pa:y pon so'n tapat tapol tagol tag mui jit
Na Nhyang muei bar pei puo:n chung thpak thpol thkol thke muchit
Kuy mu:j bi:a paj po:n su:ng thepha:t thepho:l thekhual thekheh ncut
Tareng moi bar b puan son pat po:l ko:l khi michet
Pacoh mi bar pe poan xng tapt tapl tacol takih mucht
Katu mij ?be:r pe puon su:ng sepat tepal teka:l tekieh meghet
Kantu moi bar be: puan son tapat tapol tako:l takhie michet
Ong moy bar p' pan tpat
Ngeq mo'yq baar pe puo'n so'o'ng tapu'at tapl takool takieh mo'chit
Khmer
Old Khmer+ muuej Biier pii puuen pram pram muuej prem Biier prem pii prem puuen tap
Khmer muej piir bej buen pram pram muej pram py'l pram bej pram buen dap
Bahnaric
South
Stieng mui baar p pun pram prau poh phaam sn jo'mo't
Chrau mui var pe pun prm prau ph pham su'n mt
Biat mwoj bar pee puen pram praw poh pham cin jit
Ko'ho dul bar pe poan prm pro poh pham su'n j't
Sre dl br pe pwan pram praw poh phm sin jet
E Mnong ju bar py pun prm prw poh pham sn mt
C Mnong ngwy bar pe pwn prm prw po'h pham sn j't
West
Loven muai bur^ pae puan sang tr^ao poh thaam chiin chet
Lave mui bar^ pae puan sing tr^ao poh thaam chen chit
Sapuan muuj baar pee puan seeng traw pah thaam cin jit
Cheng muuj baar pee pan seeng caw pah thaam cin cit
Suq (Sou) muuj baar pee poon seeng traw puh thaam cin cit
Nyah muei ban p puon so'ng tru pah tham chin chit
Oi mui bar^ pae puan sing tr^ao pah thaam chin chit
Brao mui baar p puon chhng trau pos tham cheu chet
Krung 2 muuj baar pee puan cheeng traw pah thaam ceen cit
Lavi mooj piar pee poon syyng traw pyh thaam ciin cet
Central
Bahnar mi bar2 png3 puan bo'dam to'drou to'po'h to'hngam1 to'sin po'jit
Alak moei bar pei po:n dm tahru poh ham chin jit
Tampuan mao paeng pwan petam trao timpaoh tinghaam chin tsit
North
Cua mui bar pe pon po'qdam ko'dru kapoh tho'm sin ku'l
Rengao mi' br2 p'3 pn2 bo'dam to'dr to'po'ih to'hngam1 to'chin bo'jo't
Jeh muih bal pei puan po'dm to'drau to'ph to'ham to'chin jt
Halang moi bat pe puan dam tarau tape pham chin ajiat
Sedang moi pa pi pn petm tedru tepah teham tochen moi chat
Hr mo:yq bayq piq pun padam tadrw taph nahim hachn hajt
Didra (Todrah) muyq bia pi pudn padabm dadrue tap`yh nihiam tachdn jt
Modra mu`y bar pi pudn padp tandru tapyh tahim tacht j`t
Pearic
Pear mo:y pa: phe:k pho:n phram kedo:ng kenu:l keti: kensa: kenga:y
Bolyu ma:i 31 mbi 55 pa:i 55 pu:n 53 me 31 pju 53 pei 55 sa:m 53 s;en 53 ma:n 13
Samre mooy paar phee phoon pram kadang kanuul kentey kensaor raay
Chong moj bar pe? poon pram kadoong kaanuul kaatii kaasaal rai
South
Monic
Old Mon+ moy ?bar pi? pon msun terow dempoh dencam dencit cos
Mon ma ?ba poe? pon peson kerao hepoh hecam hecit choh
Nyah Kur may baar pii? pan chuun traw mpoh caam ciit cas
Aslian
Semang
Che' Wong ni bi pet pn limeh nem
Kensiu nay duwa? tiga? am
Kenta' Bong nay bye
Mos nai komam fobieh awah uibem mampoh
Jehai ney dwa? tiga? impat (lima)
Menriq nay dewa? tiga?
Bateg Deh ney tiga?
Bateg Nong nay duwa? tiga?
Mintil sa? pusing tiga?
Senoic
Semai nano na:r ni ampa:t lima: anam tudju
Temiar n nl n ampat lima anam tujuh lapan sambilan n-puloh
Lanoh niy na:y tiga:?
Sabum niy ciwel tiga?
Semnam ni:h ?ilwol tiga?
Jah Hut nwey nar tiga:?
Southern
Mah Meri (Besisi) muy hma hmpe? 'mpt lmk nam tujoh d'lapan sambilan sapuloh
Semaq Beri muy hma hmpe? hmpon mesong pru? tempoh gnting gntik mognor
Semelai muy na:r hmpe? hmpon mesong pru? tempoh kitwit kantim kumai
Temoq moi duaq mpeq mpon msong tpru tmpoh lapan smbilan mn gnau
Nicobar Is.
Nicobarese heng ne:t lu:i fe:n tanwi tafu:l sat hewhere macuhtere sam
Nancowry heang a lue fuan tanei lue tafuel ishat nfoan heanghata shaum
Shompen heng au lu:ge fu:at taing lagau aing towe: lung.i te.ya
Car hng n.t l.y f.n tany taf.l st hvher~e machter~e s.n
Munda
Mundari mid baria apia upunia monrea turuia ea rilia area gelea
Bhumij moyon baria apia upunia monea turia satta aitta nota dosta
Ho miad bri ape upuni moi turui ae irili are gele
Korwa mi ba:ri-ta:ng pe:i-ta:ng cha:r pa:ch chha sa:t a:th nau das
Birhor mia barea pea punia panch chhai sat a:t la: d:s
Asuri mi:at' baria: pe:a: upnia: moy: turia: aiya: irli:ya: area: gelea:
Santali mit bar pe pon more turui eae iral are gel
Turi miad' baria pea punia miad' ti miad' ti miad' miad' ti baria miad' ti pea miad' ti punia baran ti
Kurku mi:a: ba:ri: a:pai upu:n mono turu:i: e: ila:r a:re: gel
Kharia moi baria upe ipon moloi tiburu gul t`am tomsing gol
Juang munto bato egota gandami pa:ch chhao sa:ta a:tha nao daso
Gorum (Parenga) boj bag yag ungi monloy turgi gul-gi gal-gi gal-gab al-gab
Sora (Savara) eboy bagu yagi unji monloy tudru gulji tamji tinji gelji
Gutob (Gadaba) mui-ro: ba:r-ju: ig-ro: uun-ro: manle:i tir guligi ba:gu punza ba:gu punza bo:yi galigi
Remo (Bondo) mui 'mba:r ingi:n o: molloi t?i:ri gu: tUma:p som-tin go'
Gta' m-mwing m-bar n-ji malwe tur gu tma sting gwa
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