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Democratic Republic of Timor-Leste
islander
post Oct 9 2008, 07:22 PM
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Found out that Timor-Leste has two official languages:

QUOTE
Languages:
Tetum - a local Austronesian language - (official), Portuguese (official),

They also speak Indonesian, English
note: there are about 16 indigenous languages; Tetum, Galole, Mambae, and Kemak are spoken by significant numbers of people


But it seems since 2002 they have been trying to unite all there citizens under the Portuguese language which is the language they used to communicate with when they were fighting the Indonesians.

Brazil is helping them. Brazil also wants to help Timor-Leste economically. Do know Angola which also speaks Portuguese has over the years gotten close to Brazil.

Seems many of Portugals former territories are trying to get close to Brazil.

Read story: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0WDQ/is_/ai_72344520

Edit: Timor-Leste wants Brazil to help them set up a military court in TL.


This post has been edited by islander: Oct 9 2008, 07:52 PM
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JakeCutter
post Oct 9 2008, 09:38 PM
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Keep Tetum as the official language.
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newties21
post Oct 13 2008, 04:28 PM
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Yes, they have established Tetum and Portuguese.

It seems odd to me. I think they made a mistake. In today's world, it is much more useful to learn English. It will be better for business.
Especially for a new country like Timor, still struggling and poor, I think if they master English, they can probably catch up faster and will be having better future.

I hope they wont regret this decision.

In Vietnam I heard they changed French second language teaching to English teaching.

In Poland also they tilt more towards English and less of German.

Everywhere in the world, English is fast becoming a global language for business.

But what to do.....those old guards are sentimentals.....they want to bring back the past.
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DutchEastIndiesM...
post Oct 14 2008, 07:40 AM
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I don't see the problem of them having Portuguese as one of their official language and Brazil helping them....
what does it concerns us Indonesians ?
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Ralf
post Oct 14 2008, 07:57 AM
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Next time I am in the area I think I will check out East Timor for myself.
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DutchEastIndiesM...
post Oct 14 2008, 08:04 AM
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^My dad went there once in 2003/4...to meet Xanana Gusmao.
The best Hotel there was a 3 star hotel lol. He can't call us back in Jakarta at all.
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Ralf
post Oct 14 2008, 08:16 AM
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QUOTE(DutchEastIndiesMan @ Oct 15 2008, 12:04 AM) [snapback]3964546[/snapback]
^My dad went there once in 2003/4...to meet Xanana Gusmao.

Dutch please show us some of your father's photos !
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DutchEastIndiesM...
post Oct 14 2008, 10:22 AM
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^ that trip was strictly business and there was not any formal ceremonies etc, thus he didn't took any pictures.
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Ralf
post Oct 15 2008, 02:01 AM
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QUOTE(DutchEastIndiesMan @ Oct 15 2008, 02:22 AM) [snapback]3964652[/snapback]
^ that trip was strictly business and there was not any formal ceremonies etc, thus he didn't took any pictures.
Serious ?
In that case - Like father, like son.
You didn't make any pix either when you met Suci Kennita.
Mate I'm gonna buy you a camera.
You're our man in the West.
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Kopassus
post Oct 15 2008, 07:45 AM
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QUOTE(JakeCutter @ Oct 9 2008, 09:38 PM) [snapback]3958678[/snapback]
Keep Tetum as the official language.

They should keep their original indigenious languages. Why should they use Portugese? A lot more people speaks Bahasa Indonesia. And if they dont want to use BI, because they were "colonial occupiers", why to use Portugese, also a formal colonial occupier? Its clearly that Portugal and Portugese Timoreses has still a big influance in Tim2.
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DutchEastIndiesM...
post Oct 15 2008, 08:59 AM
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QUOTE(Ralf @ Oct 15 2008, 03:01 PM) [snapback]3965659[/snapback]
Serious ?
In that case - Like father, like son.
You didn't make any pix either when you met Suci Kennita.
Mate I'm gonna buy you a camera.
You're our man in the West.


Ahahahahahah lols i'll be alright........ beerchug.gif biggthumpup.gif
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Suzuka00
post Oct 15 2008, 09:15 AM
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QUOTE(Kopassus @ Oct 15 2008, 07:45 AM) [snapback]3966119[/snapback]
They should keep their original indigenious languages. Why should they use Portugese? A lot more people speaks Bahasa Indonesia. And if they dont want to use BI, because they were "colonial occupiers", why to use Portugese, also a formal colonial occupier? Its clearly that Portugal and Portugese Timoreses has still a big influance in Tim2.

Simple,they want to improve their ties with Brazil.
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Ralf
post Oct 15 2008, 04:34 PM
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QUOTE(Suzuka00 @ Oct 16 2008, 01:15 AM) [snapback]3966279[/snapback]
Simple,they want to improve their ties with Brazil.
I understand the common Portuguese connection with Brazil, but I am curious why Timor-Leste sees such benefits to go to all the trouble of aligning itself with far away Brazil. Are there no geographically closer neighbours who could offer the same benefits to Timor-Leste ?
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anakjakarta84
post Oct 16 2008, 08:27 AM
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Warning! I don't know if what I'm saying in this post is true, but this is what I think (which I think is logical biggthumpup.gif )

@Ralf and Kopassus: I don't think that they're adopting Portuguese solely for the purpose of aligning themselves with Brazil or any other Portuguese speaking ex-colony or Portugal itself. However, I believe that East Timorese feel that the Portuguese language is a part of their heritage. As far as I know, the relationship between the Portuguese and the Flores people wasn't that bad, similar to the relationship of the Dutch in Menado and Ambon and the Dutch heritage in Menado and Ambon (the Dutch language & Protestantism). Then Sukarno (I don't want to say Indonesia Talktohand.gif ) invaded East Timor right after Portugal decided to let go of her colonies one by one and finally let go of East Timor. The Indonesian army also killed without mercy people who even thought of independence (in all of Indonesia, not only East Timor). This is (not 100% sure bout this one, since I have no East Timorese friends to confirm) what made many East Timorese miss the good old days under the Portuguese and what made them want to keep their Portuguese heritage (since it's a way to express what they miss back then).
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Majapahitans
post Oct 16 2008, 08:39 AM
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East Timor can use or learn any language they want.

I heard Indonesian is working functioning language there, especially for trans-national border trade with East Nusatenggara of Indonesia.
Because of this to brigde the ties with East Timorese, Indonesia want to establish Indonesian Cultural Center in East Timor.

QUOTE
Indonesia Segera Bangun Pusat Kebudayaan di Timor Leste

Batugade, Timor Leste (ANTARA News) - Kedutaan Besar Indonesia di Dili, Timor Leste, bekerja sama dengan pemerintah pusat di Jakarta akan membangun Pusat Kebudayaan Indonesia di Dili, sebagai bentuk nyata kerja sama kebudayaan dan hubungan baik di antara kedua negara itu.

"Kami, atas petunjuk Jakarta, memang berniat mewujudkan hal itu. Tentunya, pendirian Pusat Kebudayaan Indonesia itu guna meningkatkan kualitas hubungan baik negara bertetangga ini," kata Konselor Kedutaan Besar Republik Indonesia (KBRI) di Dili, Kiki T. Kusprabowo, saat dihubungi dari Batugade, Timor Leste, Minggu.

Menurut dia, saat ini pemakai atau penutur bahasa Indonesia di Timor Leste berjumlah sangat banyak dan mayoritas penduduk negara itu mampu berkomunikasi lisan dan tulisan dalam bahasa Indonesia secara baik sekali.

Pusat Kebudayaan Indonesia di negara itu, katanya, bukan cuma berfungsi sebagai tempat pengenalan bahasa Indonesia belaka, namun lebih dari itu. "Di sana akan diperkenalkan budaya nasional Indonesia secara lengkap. Baik dari hal bahasa, adat istiadat, hingga yang lain-lain. Saat ini kami masih terus berkoordinasi dengan Jakarta tentang hal ini," katanya.

Sejak Timor Leste merdeka pada 20 Mei tujuh tahun lalu, baru Portugal yang mendirikan Pusat Kebudayaan di negara itu, yang lokasinya berdekatan dengan Kantor Perdana Menteri (Palacio do Governo). Di dalam kompleks pusat kebudayaan itu, Portugal memperagakan dan mengenalkan budaya-budaya negaranya, yang dalam keseharian banyak diserap oleh masyarakat setempat.

Secara resmi, berdasarkan Konstitusi Timor Leste, negara itu memakai tiga bahasa resmi, yaitu bahasa Tetum, bahasa Portugal, dan bahasa Inggris. Dalam berbagai dokumen resmi negara itu, lazim dijumpai naskah yang sama ditulis dalam bahasa Tetum dan bahasa Portugal.

Namun dalam keseharian, banyak generasi tua dan muda negara itu yang memilih untuk berkomunikasi memakai bahasa Tetum dan bahasa Indonesia. Bahasa Tetum merupakan "bahasa persatuan" di Pulau Timor, sekalipun rumpun bahasa Tetum di Timor Leste yang banyak dipengaruhi kosa kata dan bunyi bahasa Portugal agak berbeda ketimbang bahasa Tetum di Pulau Timor bagian Indonesia.

Herman da Silva (26 tahun), warga Dili yang sempat mengecap kuliah di Universitas Diponegoro, Semarang, Jawa Tengah, melalui telepon seluler (ponsel)-nya menyatakan, "Belajar bahasa Portugal itu sulit sekali. Banyak aturan bahasanya dan kami miskin sumber bacaan. Apalagi, sinetron dari televisi swasta Indonesia sangat disukai di sini, diantaranya `Intan` yang populer sekali."

Secara nyata, katanya, banyak kegiatan warga Timor Leste yang bersinggungan dengan bahasa Indonesia. "Kami membeli barang keperluan di toko-toko yang kebanyakan dimiliki warga Indonesia di sini juga memakai bahasa Indonesia. Lagi pula jarang toko atau tempat usaha di sini yang dimiliki orang Portugal, kalau orang Australia cukup banyak," katanya.

Tentang pemakaian bahasa Indonesia dalam keseharian di Timor Leste juga menjadi salah satu tema kampanye Presiden Jose-Manuel Ramos Horta, yang berasal dari kandidat independen. Saat itu, Horta menyatakan, bahasa Indonesia diharapkan bisa kembali menjadi bahasa pergaulan (working language) di Timor Leste.

Janji kampanyenya dipenuhi. Saat mengunjungi Istana Merdeka di Jakarta pada 6 Juni 2007 dalam kunjungan kehormatan perdananya ke luar negeri sebagai Presiden Timor Leste, Horta telah meminta izin kepada Presiden Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, agar bahasa Indonesia bisa menjadi bahasa pergaulan itu.

"Saat ini saya memang belum lancar berbahasa Indonesia, tapi dalam kunjungan berikut ke sini, pasti sudah lebih baik," kata Horta, peraih Nobel Perdamaian pada 1996 itu, sebagaimana dikutip banyak media massa Indonesia dari Jakarta.

Yudhoyono juga telah menyatakan kegembiraannya atas permintaan Horta itu, dan menyanggupi akan membantu sepenuhnya, agar program pemerintah Timor Leste itu bisa terwujud.

Menurut Horta, program kerjanya tentang bahasa Indonesia itu akan dimulai secara penuh pada 20 Mei 2008. Tanggal itu adalah tanggal kemerdekaan Timor Leste yang kedelapan. (*)


This post has been edited by Majapahitans: Oct 16 2008, 08:40 AM
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DutchEastIndiesM...
post Oct 16 2008, 10:48 AM
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QUOTE(anakjakarta84 @ Oct 16 2008, 09:27 PM) [snapback]3968399[/snapback]
Warning! I don't know if what I'm saying in this post is true, but this is what I think (which I think is logical biggthumpup.gif )

@Ralf and Kopassus: I don't think that they're adopting Portuguese solely for the purpose of aligning themselves with Brazil or any other Portuguese speaking ex-colony or Portugal itself. However, I believe that East Timorese feel that the Portuguese language is a part of their heritage. As far as I know, the relationship between the Portuguese and the Flores people wasn't that bad, similar to the relationship of the Dutch in Menado and Ambon and the Dutch heritage in Menado and Ambon (the Dutch language & Protestantism). Then Sukarno (I don't want to say Indonesia Talktohand.gif ) invaded East Timor right after Portugal decided to let go of her colonies one by one and finally let go of East Timor. The Indonesian army also killed without mercy people who even thought of independence (in all of Indonesia, not only East Timor). This is (not 100% sure bout this one, since I have no East Timorese friends to confirm) what made many East Timorese miss the good old days under the Portuguese and what made them want to keep their Portuguese heritage (since it's a way to express what they miss back then).


I'm pretty sure Sukarno had died in 1975 and you got your facts wrong...It was Suharto.
With all due respect how could i believe you that the TNI "killed without mercy people who even thought of independence" if you got your facts wrong already ?? Not that I'm saying it does not happen but my opinion stays with me for the time being.


Back to topic, I'm a little bit skeptical with the Indonesian cultural center idea in East Timor, would not they want to get rid of anything that represent Indonesian occupation ?? Like we did in the 1950s ?
Let the Timorese speak Portuguese, it is really not our necessary to waste our energy and time to debate it. If they feel they would be better off if the Brazilians then it's fine with me as long as it does not go against Indonesia's interest (I'm pretty sure our interest is not = Taking back Timor Timur)

This post has been edited by DutchEastIndiesMan: Oct 16 2008, 10:56 AM
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JoeRagan
post Oct 16 2008, 01:02 PM
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^Sukarno died in 1970 btw., time to remember him in this coming Hari Pahlawan !
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islander
post Oct 16 2008, 02:28 PM
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Seems someone made a mistake. Timor-Leste has been a separate Democratic Republic since 2002. Its Asias newest nation. So how did it get to the Indonesian section. It should have been left in "Other Culture" Section since not many Timorese-Leste members here to give it its own section.

Going back - Even though
QUOTE
The Portuguese administration, language and religion helped to the development of a separate national identity in East Timor.
Timorese Leste citizens really did not care that much for the Portuguese colonial gov't.. They tried various times to overthrow the Portuguese colonial gov't.

Found this story on Portuguese language in TL: http://thelisbongiraffe.typepad.com/diario...ork-times-.html

and this

QUOTE
Languages

East Timor's two official languages are Portuguese and Tetum, a local Austronesian language. Indonesian and English are defined as working languages under the Constitution in the Final and Transitional Provisions without setting a final date. Although the country has only about 1 million inhabitants, another fourteen indigenous languages are spoken: Bekais; Bunak; Dawan; Fataluku; Galoli; Habun; Idalaka; Kawaimina; Kemak; Lovaia; Makalero; Makasai; Mambai; Tokodede and Wetarese.

Under Indonesian rule, the use of Portuguese was banned, but was used by the clandestine resistance, especially in communicating with the outside world. The language gained importance as a symbol for freedom and unity, as a way of differentiating the country from its neighbours and as a link to seven other nations in other parts of the world. It is now being restored as an official language, with the help of Portugal and Brazil (now spoken by 25% of the population - the number more than doubled in the last 5 years), although this has sometimes met with hostility from younger Indonesian-educated people who feel at a disadvantage. East Timor is a member of the CPLP, Community of Portuguese Language Countries, also known as the Lusophone Commonwealth, and also a member of the Latin Union.


Do know Timor-Leste aside from strong ties with Brazil, Angola and Mozambique - (Angolas main political party supported Timor-Leste main group called Freitlin which were fighting the Indonesians. Freitlin also had offices in Mozambique) - has strong ties with the Philippines and China. They did send China half a million dollars last summer after that quake hit China.

This post has been edited by islander: Oct 16 2008, 02:29 PM
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Ralf
post Oct 16 2008, 05:36 PM
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QUOTE(islander @ Oct 17 2008, 06:28 AM) [snapback]3968836[/snapback]
Seems someone made a mistake. Timor-Leste has been a separate Democratic Republic since 2002. Its Asias newest nation. So how did it get to the Indonesian section. It should have been left in "Other Culture" Section since not many Timorese-Leste members here to give it its own section.
No worries. I think we are all happy to have it here because it is very much relavant to Indonesian topics.
Infact we should invite people from Timor-Leste to join AF.
We should be open to their input.

QUOTE(anakjakarta84 @ Oct 17 2008, 12:27 AM) [snapback]3968399[/snapback]
@Ralf and Kopassus: I don't think that they're adopting Portuguese solely for the purpose of aligning themselves with Brazil or any other Portuguese speaking ex-colony or Portugal itself. However, I believe that East Timorese feel that the Portuguese language is a part of their heritage. As far as I know, the relationship between the Portuguese and the Flores people wasn't that bad.
QUOTE
Under Indonesian rule, the use of Portuguese was banned, but was used by the clandestine resistance, especially in communicating with the outside world. The language gained importance as a symbol for freedom and unity, as a way of differentiating the country from its neighbours and as a link to seven other nations in other parts of the world.
OK thanks, that explains why Portuguese is significant to the older generation.

QUOTE(islander @ Oct 17 2008, 06:28 AM) [snapback]3968836[/snapback]
Even though Timorese Leste citizens really did not care that much for the Portuguese colonial gov't.. They tried various times to overthrow the Portuguese colonial gov't.
From my reading I found that there was a history of conflict with the colonial power as well as fighting between various indigenous factions.

QUOTE(DutchEastIndiesMan @ Oct 17 2008, 02:48 AM) [snapback]3968600[/snapback]
I'm pretty sure Sukarno had died.... you got your facts wrong.... It was Suharto.
Ya, it was Suharto who decided to invade East Timor, because of the vacuum left by the Portuguese withdrawal.
I watched a documentary recently and this is how the situation was portrayed :
Suharto believed the social turmoil and civil war in East Timor would spill over into Indonesian territory.
He also wanted to control the mineral, oil and gas resources of East Timor.
He saw it as his job to bring order to the war-torn land.

QUOTE(DutchEastIndiesMan @ Oct 17 2008, 02:48 AM) [snapback]3968600[/snapback]
With all due respect how could I believe you that the TNI "killed without mercy people who even thought of independence". Not that I'm saying it does not happen but my opinion stays with me for the time being.
Suharto and the TNI created an illusion of peace in many troubled provinces. Stability came at the cost of brutal repression.
Even after the fall of the New Order regime, there are those in the elite who have reasons to silence journalists, documentary film makers and prominent anti-corruption activists such as Munir Said Thalib and Lexy Rambadeta.

QUOTE(islander @ Oct 17 2008, 06:28 AM) [snapback]3968836[/snapback]
(Timor-Leste) did send China half a million dollars last summer after that quake hit China.
I am surprised they could spare the money.
The Timor-Leste government is struggling to finance the totally inadequate local infrastructure.
They must be really keen to establish international relations.

We must get genuine Timorese people involved for a fair balance in this discussion.
Those of us who have time, please search the internet for contacts and invite them to join Asia Finest.
I will do my best.
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anakjakarta84
post Oct 17 2008, 10:28 AM
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QUOTE(DutchEastIndiesMan @ Oct 16 2008, 05:48 PM) [snapback]3968600[/snapback]
I'm pretty sure Sukarno had died in 1975 and you got your facts wrong...It was Suharto.
With all due respect how could i believe you that the TNI "killed without mercy people who even thought of independence" if you got your facts wrong already ?? Not that I'm saying it does not happen but my opinion stays with me for the time being.
Back to topic, I'm a little bit skeptical with the Indonesian cultural center idea in East Timor, would not they want to get rid of anything that represent Indonesian occupation ?? Like we did in the 1950s ?
Let the Timorese speak Portuguese, it is really not our necessary to waste our energy and time to debate it. If they feel they would be better off if the Brazilians then it's fine with me as long as it does not go against Indonesia's interest (I'm pretty sure our interest is not = Taking back Timor Timur)


@Dutch: Sorry, lol. Meant to say Suharto. I don’t know why I wrote Sukarno for Suharto and just as I have no idea why I wrote Flores people instead of East Timorese. I mean we are talking about East Timor here and not Flores.

Okay, since you don't believe me, I'll provide you with things that support what I said. I had two lines of ideas why East Timor chose Portuguese as a national language:

1. The good relationship between the Portuguese and East Timorese (not Flores people!)
2. This good relationship is similar to the good relationship between the Dutch and the Ambonese and Menadonese
3. Suharto (not Sukarno!) invaded East Timor brutally
4. The Indonesian army killed without mercy people who even thought of independence during Orde Baru.
5. The good relationship between the East Timorese and the Portuguese makes the East Timorese want to preserve the culture of the Portuguese even after they left and especially after having lived under Suharto's rule. This is why East Timor chose Portuguese.

1. Good relationship between the Portuguese and East Timorese (not Flores people!)

QUOTE
Roman Catholicism was introduced to East Timor by the Portuguese by 1515. However, the 1556 arrival of the Dominican friar, António Taveira, marked officially the commencement of a more widespread missionising effort. The East Timorese were never forced to convert however if a local chief converted many of his people would convert as well...
From: http://www.seasite.niu.edu/easttimor/religion.htm

QUOTE
In addition to Church-State relations, missionising was also curtailed by the long history of East Timorese rebellions against colonial exploitation. From the earliest times, however, the Church has been an important supporter of the native populations against such exploitations. Rebellions against the colonial power structure were often linked to a great variety of revitalization movements throughout history. The Canossian order of nuns returned to Timor in the early 1920s and the Salesian and Jesuit orders returned after the Japanese occupation of WW II. After the Second Vatican council the Portuguese language was replaced by the Tetum language (1981) as the Catholic rites became vernacularized. While this contributed to the Church’s headways in conversion rates, substantial success did not occur until after the post-colonial Indonesian invasion in 1975 when the Catholic Church ceased to a part of the Portuguese Catholic Church. The Catholic Church became the protector of the masses providing physical refuge and moral support against the brutality of the occupation, and thus incidentally becoming the rallying point for resistance.
From: http://www.seasite.niu.edu/easttimor/religion.htm

2. Good relationship between the Dutch and the Ambonese and Menadonese

QUOTE
The Dutch influence flourished as the Minahasans embraced the European goods and Christian religion. … The wholesale conversion of the Minahasans was almost complete by 1860. With the missionaries came mission schools, which meant that, as in Ambon and Roti, Western education in Minahasa started much earlier than in other parts of Indonesia. The Dutch government eventually took over some of these schools and also set up others. Because the schools taught in Dutch, the Minahasans had an early advantage in the competition for government jobs and places in the colonial army.

The Minahasans fought alongside the Dutch to subdue rebellions in other parts of the archipelago, notably in the Java War of 1825-30. They seemed to gain a special role in the Dutch scheme of things and their loyalty to the Dutch as soldiers, their Christian religion and their geographic isolation from the rest of Indonesia all led to a sense of being 'different' from the other ethnic groups of the archipelago. Well-educated in mission and government schools, Minahasans were among the first colonists to seek employment and prestige abroad.
(History of North Sulawesi, Indonesia, http://www.north-sulawesi.org/colonialism.html)

QUOTE
The Dutch exerted a strong influence over the islands (southern Mollucan islands) right up to Indonesia's war of independence in the late 1940s. They recruited Ambonese Christians as soldiers to pacify the rest of Indonesia, and they offered them education. In return, the Ambonese supported the Dutch against the mainly Java-based independence movement.
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/292830.stm)

3.Suharto (and not Sukarno!) invaded East Timor

QUOTE
Australia's two main political parties have come under fire for their actions at the time. Mr Whitlam's Labour party was in office when Indonesia's then president Suharto ordered the invasion, and Malcolm Fraser's Liberal/National coalition was in power by the time Indonesia annexed East Timor in 1976.
(www.guardian.co.uk/world/2000/sep/13/indonesia.easttimor)

QUOTE
Indonesia invades and occupies the former Portuguese colony of East Timor. An estimated 200,000 people—roughly one-third of the country’s population—will be killed in the violence and famine that follow. The invasion was tacitly approved in advance by US President Gerald Ford and Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, the day before during a meeting with Suharto (see December 6, 1975).
December 7, 1976: Indonesia Invades East Timor http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=indonesia_618

QUOTE
East Timor's President Jose Ramos Horta called on people to forgive former Indonesian dictator Suharto, who ordered the invasion of his tiny nation in 1975 and then oversaw decades of brutal rule that left up to 200,000 dead.
(The Australian, Online Newspaper of the Year, http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story...-25837,00.html)
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Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 25th October 2014 - 03:10 PM