Were the Huns (AKA XiongNu) R1a people? Options

[Tzershinden]

I see that Altaians (north of China) have the highest concentration of R1a in the world. Furthermore, Hungary (founded by the invading Huns) have almost half their population being R1a. Is it true that the Huns were R1a?

[B.ZhangMidshipma...]

I see that Altaians (north of China) have the highest concentration of R1a in the world. Furthermore, Hungary (founded by the invading Huns) have almost half their population being R1a. Is it true that the Huns were R1a?

How did it reach such significant levels in Norway, Sweden, and Iceland??? So did the Germanic tribes who had significant amount of contact with the Huns later migrate to Scandinavia or something???

When they give the broad category of "Altains" who are they referring to??? I thought that Mongols were Altains yet the chart shows that Mongols and "Altains" are quite different from each other.



This post has been edited by B.ZhangMidshipman: Jan 10 2009, 11:42 PM

[lluk]

The Huns, Magyars, Avars were never numerically dominant in Hungary. They captured Slavic and Germanic slaves and they adopted the Magyar language. The original Huns were found to have pretty high level of N group (like the Finns) as well as C (like the Mongols) and Q (Native Americans). Ancient Magyar skeletons also reveal these types of Asian DNA Y markers. Over time, they decreased in Hungary, but language remained. The Szekeler (nomadic Magyars in Romania) have high portion of N.

[B.ZhangMidshipma...]

The Huns, Magyars, Avars were never numerically dominant in Hungary. They captured Slavic and Germanic slaves and they adopted the Magyar language. The original Huns were found to have pretty high level of N group (like the Finns) as well as C (like the Mongols) and Q (Native Americans). Ancient Magyar skeletons also reveal these types of Asian DNA Y markers. Over time, they decreased in Hungary, but language remained. The Szekeler (nomadic Magyars in Romania) have high portion of N.

Are there any diagrams which show the geneology of the Ancient Huns and even ancient Mongols from 800 years ago. Many people from Central Asia: Turkmenstan, Kazakstan, Kyrgistan, Uzbekistan, etc... have told me that modern Mongolians are not the closest descendants of Chingiz Khan. They said the real descendants feld to Central Asia during the period when the Manchurian Qing dynasty occupied the land, and they stayed there and never really returned afterwards. So can you show me more sources on the Ancient Huns and Ancient Mongol DNA makeup???

[B.ZhangMidshipma...]

The Huns, Magyars, Avars were never numerically dominant in Hungary. They captured Slavic and Germanic slaves and they adopted the Magyar language. The original Huns were found to have pretty high level of N group (like the Finns) as well as C (like the Mongols) and Q (Native Americans). Ancient Magyar skeletons also reveal these types of Asian DNA Y markers. Over time, they decreased in Hungary, but language remained. The Szekeler (nomadic Magyars in Romania) have high portion of N.

Are there any diagrams which show the geneology of the Ancient Huns and even ancient Mongols from 800 years ago. Many people from Central Asia: Turkmenstan, Kazakstan, Kyrgistan, Uzbekistan, etc... have told me that modern Mongolians are not the closest descendants of Chingiz Khan. They said the real descendants feld to Central Asia during the period when the Manchurian Qing dynasty occupied the land, and they stayed there and never really returned afterwards. So can you show me more sources on the Ancient Huns and Ancient Mongol DNA makeup???

[baybal]

Hungary speaks Uralic beacause Huns got Mansi as a part of their army. Same for r1a1. Huns got todays Tojick precessors as a part of army.

[excalibure]

The chart shows that there are a small proportion of R1a in the Han Chinese population. I know the Huns used to live in China in large numbers before they were driven out of China by the Han Dynasty, so perhaps in the ancient times before they were driven out R1a accounted for about 20 to 30 percent of the Chinese population? In any case, the small portion of R1a in today's Han Chinese population are likely the remnants of Hunnic descendants. This provides compelling evidence that the ancient Huns were in fact R1a. R1a originated well before the Neolithic, so I wouldn't be surprised that many Asian and European ethnicities shared the R1a marker prior to 500 BC.

[B.ZhangMidshipma...]

The chart shows that there are a small proportion of R1a in the Han Chinese population. I know the Huns used to live in China in large numbers before they were driven out of China by the Han Dynasty, so perhaps in the ancient times before they were driven out R1a accounted for about 20 to 30 percent of the Chinese population? In any case, the small portion of R1a in today's Han Chinese population are likely the remnants of Hunnic descendants. This provides compelling evidence that the ancient Huns were in fact R1a. R1a originated well before the Neolithic, so I wouldn't be surprised that many Asian and European ethnicities shared the R1a marker prior to 500 BC.

Where you get that information from??? The Xiongnu never lived in large numbers inside of the Han China territory before they were driven Westwards by General Ban Chao. The Xiongu lived Northg of Han China and parts of the Tarim Basin. The only places the ancient Xiongnu used to live which coincides with modern China territory is the Tarim Basin which is mostly Uyghur autonomous territory.

The only group which has significant amounts of R1a in China are the Uyghurs, but their story is an interesting one. I'll make a post later about it.

[excalibure]

Where you get that information from??? The Xiongnu never lived in large numbers inside of the Han China territory before they were driven Westwards by General Ban Chao. The Xiongu lived Northg of Han China and parts of the Tarim Basin. The only places the ancient Xiongnu used to live which coincides with modern China territory is the Tarim Basin which is mostly Uyghur autonomous territory.

The only group which has significant amounts of R1a in China are the Uyghurs, but their story is an interesting one. I'll make a post later about it.

I believe most of those who served as "generals" in the Chinese army were Hunnic. I'm talking about around 500 BC, not the Han Dynasty. They usually had named ending with "xie". Anyhow, believe what you want. I got my not-so-complete info from Chinese TV shows about ancient China well before the Han Dynasty.

Anyway, here's something about "Altaians". They spoke a Turkish language quite different from Mongol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altay_people

I think the Huns were Altaians, which were mostly R1a, not Mongol, which were mostly C.

This post has been edited by excalibure: Jan 11 2009, 03:00 PM

[joyzhang]

I believe most of those who served as "generals" in the Chinese army were Hunnic. I'm talking about around 500 BC, not the Han Dynasty. They usually had named ending with "xie". Anyhow, believe what you want. I got my not-so-complete info from Chinese TV shows about ancient China well before the Han Dynasty.

Anyway, here's something about "Altaians". They spoke a Turkish language quite different from Mongol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altay_people

I think the Huns were Altaians, which were mostly R1a, not Mongol, which were mostly C.

Khuton, a mongol tribe living in the west of mongol, have a 70% R1a on their y-snp.
And in history record Xiongnu can divide into yellow Xiongnu/ White Xiongnu.
But the core tribe seemed yellow

[baybal]

There were no such thing as a Xiongnu nation. Xiongnu were just a plain millitary block.

Todays population of pre Altay mountains plains is a product of thousand years reverse migration due to the Altay plains were a historical place for all Central Asian refuges.

[joyzhang]

In fact the R1a of Chinese aren't from Xiongnu, but from aborigines in the Xinjiang ,northwest China.

[B.ZhangMidshipma...]

I believe most of those who served as "generals" in the Chinese army were Hunnic. I'm talking about around 500 BC, not the Han Dynasty. They usually had named ending with "xie". Anyhow, believe what you want. I got my not-so-complete info from Chinese TV shows about ancient China well before the Han Dynasty.

Anyway, here's something about "Altaians". They spoke a Turkish language quite different from Mongol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altay_people

I think the Huns were Altaians, which were mostly R1a, not Mongol, which were mostly C.

"I believe most of those who served as "generals" in the Chinese army were Hunnic."

WTF?!?! You sure you ain't making this up??? I've never heard of that.



Well, the story of the Huns or the Xiongnu is pretty complex. This article here may give you a little insight on it:

http://www.findthelinks.com/history/Huns_T...gin_of_huns.htm

You see the ancient Xiongnu/Huns did infact originate from a man by the name of Chunwei. Chinese sources, Uyghur sources, and many sources confirm this. During the last days of the Xia Dynasty, the ruling family and those who were loyal to them were expelled to regions North, Northwest, and Northeast of modern China. At the time being, the ruling family of the Xia and their followers had genotypes that were virtually the same as the genotypes of modern day Han Chinese people.

But after they were expelled, they had no choice but to interbreed with locals in order to last long. And the Altains were the people whom these ancient Chinese had the most numerous intermarriages with, and modern genetics attests to that. The interbreeding between the exiled Xia (Who were mostly 'O') and the Altains (Who were mostly 'R1a') was what created the first ancient Xiongnu/Huns.

The first Xiongnu/Huns were probably around 40% 'O' and around 40% 'R1a' the 'O' came from the Chinese exiled from Xia and the 'R1a' came from the local Altains whom they Xia people interbred with. Modern day Uyghurs also give the same story, and they also claim descent from a Xia nobelman name Chunwei. Modern Uyghurs have 'R1b' but their earliest ancestors, the first Xiongnu/Huns didn't.

The 'R1b' in modern day Uyghurs I'm not so sure about. Some say that the Uyghurs got 'R1b' from the ancient Yuezhi people who fled the Tarim Basin when the Xiongnu/Huns attacked them. But others claim that the 'R1b' is far more recent and acquired from Russians during the days of Russian Imperialism.

[baybal]

You thought that a Hunnu is a certain nation and these is awesome wrong. R1A* is a pure Arian line it's nohow it could be a native Altaic.

There were a Huge dispute about kurgan hypothesis, but nothing proves that anyhow significant of pre turkic period caucasoid nomads/gypsies population existed to leave significant genetic traces in mongoloids population. These is a work of more recent period 500 AD when Central Asian caucasoids/caspioids began to settle down second time after the thousand castles civilistaion to settled lifestyle. Mongoloids doesn't mixed with Caucasoids/Caspioids during the thousand castles culture period.

This post has been edited by baybal: Jan 12 2009, 06:01 AM

[excalibure]

The first Xiongnu/Huns were probably around 40% 'O' and around 40% 'R1a' the 'O' came from the Chinese exiled from Xia and the 'R1a' came from the local Altains whom they Xia people interbred with. Modern day Uyghurs also give the same story, and they also claim descent from a Xia nobelman name Chunwei. Modern Uyghurs have 'R1b' but their earliest ancestors, the first Xiongnu/Huns didn't.

The 'R1b' in modern day Uyghurs I'm not so sure about. Some say that the Uyghurs got 'R1b' from the ancient Yuezhi people who fled the Tarim Basin when the Xiongnu/Huns attacked them. But others claim that the 'R1b' is far more recent and acquired from Russians during the days of Russian Imperialism.

O and R1b are both central Asian in origin. Those markers could have been established the Huns and the Ughyrs thousands of years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_O_(Y-DNA)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)

In fact, current Russians have very few R1b, much less than the portion in Ughyrs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chrom..._DNA_haplogroup

[Jagger]

I see that Altaians (north of China) have the highest concentration of R1a in the world. Furthermore, Hungary (founded by the invading Huns) have almost half their population being R1a. Is it true that the Huns were R1a?

R1a is far too common for it to be the 'Hun' marker. The R1a haplogroup is commonly found in nearly every population from Iceland to India to the Altay Mountains. The Hunnic invasions were never this far reaching. R1a most likely has prehistoric origins.

This post has been edited by Jagger: Jan 12 2009, 04:45 PM

[excalibure]

R1a is far too common for it to be the 'Hun' marker. The R1a haplogroup is commonly found in nearly every population from Iceland to India to the Altay Mountains. The Hunnic invasions were never this far reaching. R1a most likely has prehistoric origins.

I know. What I meant was, were Huns mostly R1a, as are the majority of Hungarians today?

[Jagger]

In that case, it would be difficult to generalize the Huns. They consisted of a confederation of various different nomadic Central Asian tribes, including Turko-Mongolian and Indo-Iranian tribes, and they were later joined by European tribes as they made their way to Europe. Most of the Central Asian populations today seem to have a common R1a haplogroup, but this particular haplogroup is very limited in the Mongolian population. If it is true that the original Hunnic tribe were the Xiongnu from what is now Mongolia, then they should at least have something in common with the Mongolian population, which has a much higher concentration of the C haplogroup. Therefore, I suspect that the original Hunnic tribe must have had a higher concentration of the C haplogroup rather than R1a, or possibly even both.

This post has been edited by Jagger: Jan 12 2009, 05:35 PM

[B.ZhangMidshipma...]

R1a is far too common for it to be the 'Hun' marker. The R1a haplogroup is commonly found in nearly every population from Iceland to India to the Altay Mountains. The Hunnic invasions were never this far reaching. R1a most likely has prehistoric origins.

It's quite possible that 'R1a' is the Hunnic marker. Neither its occurance in Iceland and India debunks it. Though, I am a littel skeptical about Iceland.

When it comes to India, the ancient Yuezhi people and the Kushan Empire had a lot of contacts with the Xiongu/Huns. The acquirement of the 'R1a' marker may have been more recent from the Mughals. The first Mughals were people of Turko-Mongol ancestrry from the Timurid Empire. They ruled India for over 300 years. When I say 'Turko' I'm not referring to modern day Anatolian-Turks. I mean the Asiatic-Turkic people which include the Altays, people with high portions of 'R1a'

I'm not too familiar with the relationship between the Scandinavians and the Germanic tribes who had significant amounts of contact with the Huns (Gepids, Vandals, Ostrogoth, Visigoth, Alans, etc...) If the ancestors of the Vikings are related to these Germanic tribes, then that may explain why 'R1a' is in Iceland. If not, then the 'R1a' presence in Iceland may serve a big debunker for the Huns = R1a theory. Norse Mythology has a character Atli, derived from the historic Attila: (http://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/norseminor.html#Atli).

[B.ZhangMidshipma...]

In that case, it would be difficult to generalize the Huns. They consisted of a confederation of various different nomadic Central Asian tribes, including Turko-Mongolian and Indo-Iranian tribes, and they were later joined by European tribes as they made their way to Europe. Most of the Central Asian populations today seem to have a common R1a haplogroup, but this particular haplogroup is very limited in the Mongolian population. If it is true that the original Hunnic tribe were the Xiongnu from what is now Mongolia, then they should at least have something in common with the Mongolian population, which has a much higher concentration of the C haplogroup. Therefore, I suspect that the original Hunnic tribe must have had a higher concentration of the C haplogroup rather than R1a, or possibly even both.

I highly disagree here. I agree more with the notion that Huns were Altaic 'R1a' when you make your conclusion that Huns were originally C-predominant, you are making a huge fallacy. It's not really your fault, it's due to something which many people don't know about. Many people say that most modern day Mongolians are not the real descendants of the Xiongu/Huns and Chingiz Kahn. Yes these people live in Mongolian as of now, but a few hundred years ago it was inhabited by people who were mostly of an Asiatic-Turkic background.

The change happened when the Manzhu Qing Dynasty conquered the Dzungars and killed around 70 - 80% of them, and the open space was then filled by people of Buryat, Manchu, and a little bit of Han Chinese people. The Dzungars were the real heirs of the Mongol Empire and were made up of Oyrats (Who are mostly 'R1a').