Author argues Koreans ruled in ancient Japan Options

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It's too bad all of this stuff has to be so personal.

I mean, you can learn a lot from a discussion like this one, but filtering through the personal attacks and ad-homs can be trying... nevermind the likely chance that someone will get frustrated and leave in the middle.

Oh well...

[Corean Ninja Rap...]

after reading through all that, doesn't make some any sense

hi head is making some ridiculous claims (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/confused.gif)

[hi-head]

It's not my fault that this topic got ugly, that chinese faggot came in and started insulting me for no reason. I think this moron is nothing but a little child filled in with the wrong propaganda and misunderstandings. Instead of all this garbage talking full of false assumptions, I'll go straight to the important points.

First off, you should understand that the china back then is not the china today. How many times do i have to emphasize this. The existing identity of china is the Han, because they are the vast majority living there and has always been. Sure, the name Han was established after the Han dynasty, but the people, the race existed long before that, and they are the first inhabitants of southern china. There's a reason why the differentiation of the Han race from others is important; it's a racial identity bounded by similar language, heritage and bloodline, not just history. Now they are scattered all over China and pretty much of the world like infesting bugs, but they used to be just "part" of today's chinese political borders. The china today didn't exist then, but there was surely a racial identity of the chinese long before civilization.
The Han are NOT a warrior rooted people, and they did not invent the bow and cavalry techniques, contrary to the chinese's claims. The northern altaic tribes brought the technique of cavalry archery. Archery was used all over the globe, but the similarity of bows in china and its neighbors indicate how the conquered and subdued chinese learned from their turq/mongol masters of the desiging of efficient bows. Throughout china's history you see the vast numbers of Han people being repeatedly subdued by their northern neighbors, e.g the Shang, Yuan, Qin, Qing, etc, and these conquerors no doubt contribute much to china's rich culture and history.

One thing to clear up here: the term Altaic is largely a linguistic reference, but that's because most of the altaic people spread throughout the world and mixed in with other races, including caucasians, arabs, dravidians, and the han chinese. The altaics share the same fathers along a common bloodline, albeit a corrupted bloodline; they are no longer homogeneous and pure racials such as the europeans, but the altaic peoples today can consider their ties as cultural/racial as well, because our language among other things still bind us together. We share the same fathers, but different mothers. Now is that not enough to bring us all back together? We koreans and japanese are the altaic tribes mixed in with dravidian/jomons and other(polynesian, han chinese), but we still trace much of our identity to our fatherline. This is what westerners don't understand; to say that we are only linguistically related is to say that dudes with the same surnames/clan names aren't related at all.

You tend to rely too much on genetic studies but there is a limit to what that can provide. First of all, genetic engineering is an unreliable science at most. Since all humans have such similar genetic compositions,(all human DNA are 99 % identical), the genes studied for the purpose of anthropological research are mainly of those that determine phenotypes, and these in turn are largly environment-affected. Secondly, there has been so much ethnic mixing going on, and the northern chinese therefore have a lot of northern altaic blood in them. The ethnic composition also varies from person to person in such mixed countries, as some koreans are more purely altaic, some are more southern and some more chinese. Just a kick-in-the-senses: There are genetic studies that have claimed that the closest to koreans in genetic relations are northern chinese, some claimed that it's the japanese, some claimed that it's dravidian, some say tungusic(like yourself), some say turks are the closest...See how it varies so goddamn much? How can one rely on such an immature area of study? I prefer looking down cultural, linguistic lines along with geography, as most modern scholars do(like ramstead).

Archaeology is also occasionally unreliable- cultural influences go around without coherency to migratory patterns. Rather dig this: ancient Iraqi historian writes that koreans are the descendants the amur tribes of eastern Turkey(now from that you can see migratory patterns fit with the Dong Yi, who come from the west, not south), and turqish mythology and folklore are bizzarely identical to that of koreans. Folklore is something that has to be passed from mothers' tongue to their children, and therefore is a reliable indication of ethnic connection.

Go see a map of altaic distributions, this is not the most detailed map but generally outlines the current knowledge of altaic studies scholars.
http://starling.rinet.ru/Images/altaic.gif

Quote: "Turks and Mongols would not arrive in East Asia until 100 A.D when they will displace the native Xiong Nu populations, you fu-king idiot, you can't even understand time frames correctly"
See this tells us that you dont really understand the people of Asia. The Xiong Nu WERE THE TURKS AND MONGOLS, they were the ancestors of later Dolgwol, shanbai, and eventually mongolians. WTF turks and mongols not arrived until 100 A.D.? I hope you're not serious. What did you think the xiong nu were, CHINESE?
To the east of the mongols/turks were the dong-yi, and further east and north the ancestors of manchurians. These four main groups were the subdivisions of the proto-altaic family. The dong-yi were the only agricultural people of the time, as they were a blend of possibly turkics or other altaics and dravidians(dravidians introduced agriculture to asia, not the chinese-just tells us how much the chinese ancient civilization was foreign induced). These dong-yi people founded many tribal states along china's northeastern coast and into the korean penninsula. The dong-yi later found the shanbai, ko-choson, the samhahn states, wa, then koguryo, paekche, shilla, parhae etc. So the dong-yi weren't exactly koreans, because koreans are included in the dong-yi, like the japanese, among many others. Think of the german migration and how it lent to germany, austria, england, swiss... what i mean by dong-yi is that it's our RACIAL identity, just as the german speaking peoples refer to themselves as germanics, or russian/poles/yugoslaves etc as Slavics.
And one can't forget how the dong-yi influenced china as well.

Let me make this clear: i was not serious in the previous post that the Koreans found the shang and chinese civilization; i was merely mocking the chinese' logic and made an assertion that is parallel and not any sillier than what the chinese are doing today. If anything, it'd be the dong-yi who found it(shang) and taught the chinese how to tame the horse for war, the writing system perhaps, among other things, not koreans specifically. The dong-yi later migrated eastward(and this is undisputable fact) and became various different peoples, with the koreans and japanese being amongst them.

I offer this as something we should all agree to: the Dong-yi is certainly part of chinese history, but they are certainly our identity as well as our main history. Please don't steal our ancestors and history away. The dong-yi clearly werent Han.

ANd enough of hostililties

[Corean Ninja Rap...]

i'm proud to be Corean but what is this dong yi, mongol,xio nu,turkish thing? (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/confused.gif)

i notice that really patriotic Koreans spend alot of time talking about relations to other groups instead their own people

[華夏無產]

Since 浪淘音 can't reply, I will post for him.

LOL now Shang and Qin are non-Hans?

at the time, there was NO Han identity OR Han race. Han is an ethnicity, not a race. Han lineage are from diverse branches such as Xia, Dong Yi, and even the western Rong and thousands of years later, even nan man tribes were assimilated. the era in which we talk about is pre-history and long before any type of Chinese identity was formed and especially long before any korean identity formed.

the Dong Yi were only considered "foreigners" during the Xia(2000 B.C), after the Shang over threw the Xia and established their dynasty, they adopted many elements of Xia culture. The Dong Yi and Xia eventually become ONE PEOPLE, HOW THE fu-k COULD THEY SOMEHOW WAKE UP TWO THOUSAND YEARS LATER, SEPERATE THEMSELVES FROM THE XIA AND THEN MOVE TO KOREA(i want you to answer this)after this era, it would BE TWO THOUSAND YEARS BEFORE THE TERM DONG YI WOULD BE RE-USED to refer to koreans.

Since you associate Han with only Xia people, then you're wrong about your "Chinese not being warrior" crap. Xia people were warlike. the Shang did not come up with horse taming, they added the chariot to it. horse taming was already common to the Xia. Xia people btw, are not native to southern China, they came from the inland areas west of the Dong Yi lands

what is wrong you koreans? you think you are a warrior race? you are certainly not and the only connection you have is your pathetic "altaic myth". which by the way, has not beeen proven, Altaic proper consists of Tungusic and Turko Mongol languages, Korean/Japanese are thought be isolated languages. furthermore the culture of these other groups differ from the hermit korean culture

you want to talk about sugjugation, how many years of your history were spent as a vassal state or colony?

"Altaic" nomads did not become fully nomadic until far into the Western Zhou Dynasty, archery and calvalry tactics were introduced to them by the Chinese, this is not purely a Chinese claim, western scholars on the subject also agree on this subject.

unlike you, i dont' read only sources made by my people, all the links you showed were by korean nationalists while i showed you links by everyone from Chinese, Koreans, whites. by the way, that genetic study i showed you was done by Korean scientists (and i'm biased?). the archery link i provided was also written by a korean(and i'm biased?). by the way, it was only called the "Turkish bow" because Xiong Nu/proto-huns adopted it and then eventually moved westward to be encountered by Europeans. I TOLD YOU BEFORE, I PRACTICE ARCHERY AND ALL OF MY ARCHERY INSTRUCTORS MAINTAIN THAT THE FIRST BOW IN ASIA WAS CHINESE.

the Xiong Nu were not Mongols/Turks, they were pushed out and REPLACED by the Xianbei(who btw were known a confederation of different tribes and not a single entity to have pseudo-Caucasoid features such as deep eyes), Turks came from a west to east migration and settled in East Turkestan(present day Xinjiang), Mongols would someday form under Genghis Khan as a confederation of many different tribes but that was not until after 1000 A.D. by the way, in case you were curious, the most direct Xianbei descendants are the Hazara of Afghanistan

your assumption is that the Dong Yi were koreans so therefore, koreans contributed to Chinese culture, so why did Chinese have to bring this culture back to you? did your "Dong Yi" ancestors forget their culture and have to wait for the Chinese who "stole this culture" to bring it back to the koreans (who somehow forgot this culture) I WANT YOU TO DIRECTLY ANSWER THIS QUESTION

once again, since you dont' believe in genetics, lets talk about culture^. i already explained that they're are no cultural trails from the Dong Yi in China to the Korean peninsula. the bird totem was not brought to korea until the Samhaan period. the music played by the Dong Yi had no descendants in Korea, the pottery/sculpture style is not present in pre-Chinese Korea.

also, any dong yi influence in korea was due to the fact that a Shang prince was ordered to rule over lower Dongbei and Korea territories. the Shang tombs have the DECAPITATED skulls of what anthropologists label as "eskimoids" meaning the arctic races that lived north of the Shang territory. the Shang obcviously thought of the natives of lower dongbei/korea to be foreigners while the Shang considered the Xia people to be their "country cousins”

This post has been edited by 華夏無產: Nov 4 2004, 03:19 PM

[qnpfr]

watever...it's pointless arguing with them...
뷁스러운 것들 하고 싸워 봤자 혈압만 오르고 건강에 안 조아여...^^
신경쓰지 맙시다...
浪淘音=뷁
華夏無產=뷁 (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif)

[Corean Ninja Rap...]

watever...it's pointless arguing with them...
뷁스러운 것들 하고 싸워 봤자 혈압만 오르고 건강에 안 조아여...^^
신경쓰지 맙시다...
浪淘音=뷁
華夏無產=뷁  (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif)

the discussion is interesting, you shouldn't make fun of one side just because it doesn't benefit your extreme patriotism

[qnpfr]

watever...it's pointless arguing with them...
뷁스러운 것들 하고 싸워 봤자 혈압만 오르고 건강에 안 조아여...^^
신경쓰지 맙시다...
浪淘音=뷁
華夏無產=뷁  (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif)

the discussion is interesting, you shouldn't make fun of one side just because it doesn't benefit your extreme patriotism

저것들 이게 처음이 아니에요...항상와서 짜증나게 하는 것들이죠...님이야 여기 온지 얼마 안 되서 모르겠지만...

[Corean Ninja Rap...]

watever...it's pointless arguing with them...
뷁스러운 것들 하고 싸워 봤자 혈압만 오르고 건강에 안 조아여...^^
신경쓰지 맙시다...
浪淘音=뷁
華夏無產=뷁  (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif)

the discussion is interesting, you shouldn't make fun of one side just because it doesn't benefit your extreme patriotism

저것들 이게 처음이 아니에요...항상와서 짜증나게 하는 것들이죠...님이야 여기 온지 얼마 안 되서 모르겠지만...

i'm an adopted Korean, i can't read or speak it

but even despite that, the korean extreme patriots i've talked to spend all their time talking about how they are related to this group like mongols or even turkey(wtf?), and they dont' speak of actual korean things

[qnpfr]

watever...it's pointless arguing with them...
뷁스러운 것들 하고 싸워 봤자 혈압만 오르고 건강에 안 조아여...^^
신경쓰지 맙시다...
浪淘音=뷁
華夏無產=뷁  (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif)

the discussion is interesting, you shouldn't make fun of one side just because it doesn't benefit your extreme patriotism

저것들 이게 처음이 아니에요...항상와서 짜증나게 하는 것들이죠...님이야 여기 온지 얼마 안 되서 모르겠지만...

i'm an adopted Korean, i can't read or speak it

but even despite that, the korean extreme patriots i've talked to spend all their time talking about how they are related to this group like mongols or even turkey(wtf?), and they dont' speak of actual korean things

ic...why did u say i made fun of them then? lol
anyways...u should read wat they've post too then...i don't know wat's ur definition of extreme patriotism but im certainly not...i don't care if they claim to be descendants of pure dong yi race or watever lol...but they shouldn't be saying we are this and wat not when they don't know $hit about korean history...

[Corean Ninja Rap...]

watever...it's pointless arguing with them...
뷁스러운 것들 하고 싸워 봤자 혈압만 오르고 건강에 안 조아여...^^
신경쓰지 맙시다...
浪淘音=뷁
華夏無產=뷁  (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif)

the discussion is interesting, you shouldn't make fun of one side just because it doesn't benefit your extreme patriotism

저것들 이게 처음이 아니에요...항상와서 짜증나게 하는 것들이죠...님이야 여기 온지 얼마 안 되서 모르겠지만...

i'm an adopted Korean, i can't read or speak it

but even despite that, the korean extreme patriots i've talked to spend all their time talking about how they are related to this group like mongols or even turkey(wtf?), and they dont' speak of actual korean things

ic...why did u say i made fun of them then? lol
anyways...u should read wat they've post too then...i don't know wat's ur definition of extreme patriotism but im certainly not...i don't care if they claim to be descendants of pure dong yi race or watever lol...but they shouldn't be saying we are this and wat not when they don't know $hit about korean history...

actually, the first time i even heard of Samhaan period was when that Chinese guy mentioned it

[karikari2]

i'm proud to be Corean but what is this dong yi, mongol,xio nu,turkish thing? (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/confused.gif)

i notice that really patriotic Koreans spend alot of time talking about relations to other groups instead their own people

Welcome back (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) Hung-gate = XAN (CNA)

[Adwaregator]

i'm proud to be Corean but what is this dong yi, mongol,xio nu,turkish thing? (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/confused.gif)

i notice that really patriotic Koreans spend alot of time talking about relations to other groups instead their own people

Welcome back (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) Hung-gate = XAN (CNA)

Guess that explains the pro china attitude and knowing so much for an adopted kid (plus all the annoying off topic replys)

[Corean Ninja Rap...]

huh?

[MiSta MujiGe]

busted.

[Corean Ninja Rap...]

busted.

busted on what?

[karikari2]

*delete*

This post has been edited by karikari2: Nov 7 2004, 12:57 AM

[hi-head]

Yeah, it is pointless in arguing with these fools. I don't think i have to waste any more time trying to educate these imbeciles, i think my last post made it clear and final.

One thing is for sure, however: the Chinese suffer from a terrible inferiority complex. Let'em be, cuz they know of their own racial shortcomings well.

Coreanninjarapper, these historical debates are important in figuring out our roots, and finding who we are or once was related to is just as important in figuring out our identity. If we dont make this clear, ignorant beliefs would have it that we are a sub-chinese people, and this cannot be condoned.

There is nothing extreme about this sort of patriotism. In fact, it is the chinese who are pitifully extreme about this, creating history on their own devices and claiming non-chinese people as chinese to make their history less shameful and more grand and rich. Their erroneous sino-centric view must be trashed, as trash is what they are.

This post has been edited by hi-head: Nov 7 2004, 05:03 PM

[華夏無產]

Yeah, it is pointless in arguing with these fools. I don't think i have to waste any more time trying to educate these imbeciles, i think my last post made it clear and final.

One thing is for sure, however: the Chinese suffer from a terrible inferiority complex. Let'em be, cuz they know of their own racial shortcomings well.

Coreanninjarapper, these historical debates are important in figuring out our roots, and finding who we are or once was related to is just as important in figuring out our identity. If we dont make this clear, ignorant beliefs would have it that we are a sub-chinese people, and this cannot be condoned.

There is nothing extreme about this sort of patriotism. In fact, it is the chinese who are pitifully extreme about this, creating history on their own devices and claiming non-chinese people as chinese to make their history less shameful and more grand and rich. Their erroneous sino-centric view must be trashed, as trash is what they are.

So...
Let me get this straight. When koreans revise and distort history, it is acceptable. When a Chinese provides a logical, coherent rebuttal, with sources from China, Korea, and Europe, he's nothing but an insecure, ethnocentric, ignorant, and racist fool? Name calling isn't any way to get your ideas accepted. And I must say, most of what 浪淘音 said IS actually true.

BTW, nobody ever said that Koreans are a Chinese sub-people. At most, their relationship to the modern Chinese clearly shows a divergence between primary and secondary mongoloid types, and also some samoyedic/arctic admixtures.

[Corean Ninja Rap...]

Yeah, it is pointless in arguing with these fools. I don't think i have to waste any more time trying to educate these imbeciles, i think my last post made it clear and final.

One thing is for sure, however: the Chinese suffer from a terrible inferiority complex. Let'em be, cuz they know of their own racial shortcomings well.

Coreanninjarapper, these historical debates are important in figuring out our roots, and finding who we are or once was related to is just as important in figuring out our identity. If we dont make this clear, ignorant beliefs would have it that we are a sub-chinese people, and this cannot be condoned.

There is nothing extreme about this sort of patriotism. In fact, it is the chinese who are pitifully extreme about this, creating history on their own devices and claiming non-chinese people as chinese to make their history less shameful and more grand and rich. Their erroneous sino-centric view must be trashed, as trash is what they are.

i don't think he was trying to say Koerans are a sub-Chinese people. he says their ancestors have nothing to do with ours but you say they are, and he says they're not and so on and on. very long argument. i don't understand some of the links he gave, what is haplotype