Philippines: Wealthiest Nation on Earth?, Following Shambhalista's Dubai Philippine gold Options

[matigasngulo]

My condolences, azaz.

hm, those astronomical 600,000 could also be referring to the unrefined ore, right

btw last night a show german tv was making a kind of advertisment (!) for Dubai, specifically for the Sheik / prime ministers book of poetry LOL i don't expect him to recoup the losses by selling it, because the vultures have swept (abu Dhabi & London banks) in to reap in their share.

a look to our neighbour:

http://www.businessmirror.com.ph/home/worl...-time-high.html



China, the world’s largest gold producer, may have record demand and output this year as jewelry consumption soars and miners expand production after prices reached all-time highs, according to the China Gold Association.

The country’s gold demand may be more than 450 metric tons this year, up from 395.6 tons in 2008, and output may climb to 310 tons, compared with 282 tons a year earlier, Zhang Yongtao, deputy secretary-general of the association, said at a conference in Kunming. Annualized growth in China’s gold production was 9.5 percent in the past eight years, he said.

China overtook South Africa to become the world’s largest producer in 2007 and the World Gold Council said in July that the nation may pass India as the biggest consumer. Bullion touched a record of $1,195.13 an ounce November 26 as a weaker dollar drove demand for precious metals as an alternative asset.

“The inflation concern this year has boosted the Chinese consumer demand for things like property, autos and gold,” Zhou Shijian, professor at Tsinghua University, said today from Kunming, capital of the southern Yunnan province.

Bullion, up 34 percent this year, is set for a ninth annual gain as central banks, pension funds and individual buyers seek to protect their assets from potential currency debasement and inflation. Gold may climb to $1,500 an ounce as the dollar falls amid low interest rates, Kenneth Tropin, chairman of Graham Capital Management, told Barron’s in its November 30 issue.

Jewelry sales in China will climb at a “double-digit’’ pace this year as record household savings fuel demand for investment products and wedding gifts, Hong Kong Resources Holdings Ltd. Chairman Kennedy Wong said on October 23. Middle-class buyers in China, who have only just started to buy gold as an investment product, drove a 16 percent gain in gold and silver jewelry sales in the first nine months, said Wong, whose company has 219 jewelry stores in mainland China.

Gold for immediate delivery declined 0.9 percent to $1,177.63 an ounce on November 27 as commodities slumped the most this month after Dubai sought to defer some debt payments, rattling investors and spurring a dollar rally. Bullion found support from International Monetary Fund (IMF) sales to central banks.

Sri Lanka bought 10 metric tons from the IMF for about $375 million, the IMF said, following India and Mauritius. China is “quite a likely” buyer in coming weeks, Ben Westmore, an analyst with National Australia Bank, has said.

“Record prices boosted profitability of Chinese miners, giving them incentive to expand production,” the gold association’s Zhang said in a speech. Shares of Chinese miners have jumped this year with Zijin Mining Group Co., the nation’s largest gold producer, more than doubling, outpacing a 70-percent gain in the benchmark Shanghai Composite Index. Bloomberg

[higaynon]

One person who can still shed light on this matter is the Former First Lady Imelda Romualdez Marcos. A text message sent to me by a well known personality whom I think Trismegistos also know says:

"Imelda Marcos told me personally about that gold and how huge is it. Even showed me documents. Even Swedish psychic Olof Jonsson told me same thing personally"

So, Madame First Lady Imelda Marcos, please tell us more.
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I want to take this opportunity mention that my father, Nicholas A. Achas, passed away last Nov. 27, 2009. I remember an episode in our life, he was in government service and had the power to release trucks of rice from Central Luzon during the rice crisis in early seventies, people were bringing paper bags of money for his approval but only met rejection though we were financially down as my mother was sick (and died in 1978). He died unremembered by most friends, without recognitions, but he will always wear the medals of respect and love from me.

sir condolence. your father deserves a respect for his integrity for he didn't betray the peoples trust.

This post has been edited by higaynon: Dec 1 2009, 09:23 AM

[higaynon]

It seems that 2010 is the last date for claiming the Marcos Gold... Any update on this?

[trismegistos]

It seems that 2010 is the last date for claiming the Marcos Gold... Any update on this?

Will wait for Azaz for any update.

This post has been edited by trismegistos: Dec 4 2009, 05:46 AM

[azaz]

Thank you Higaynon, Matigasngulo, others, Trismegistos, as you are, and others here, I believe that nobility is indigenous to many Filipinos. I have been a witness to their silent suffering. Those who want to have a better country. But it needs the Divine to hold on. Again, thank you.

According to what I read from the Ming forum, deadline is January 2010 for claiming anything related to the Diaz Last Will under the control of the DNP Enterprises. I hope Leyte will make it. I have suggested that Mr. Todd Alphine be the paymaster for Leyte and the Trustees have the moral obligation to conduct the project studies for Leyte. They have a claimant, that is, Ms. Olympia Jolls with a Mayor & Barangay official from Leyte. But everything will depend on the Trustees' decision. I do not know who they are. As for the bulk of Santa Romana/Marcos wealth, I don't think everything is under the control of DNP Enterprises. Some sources say that most are still here buried in the Philippines. If that is so, then that is one other reason I think why Sir Todd cannot leave Ming's forum. Everyone who has influence over those bunkers should consolidate their interest soonest possible. Events, natural or designed, might overrun it in the very near future. Continue to share your mind. This is one of the very few channels in the world where you, your mind as a Filipino, can be read on this matter.

This post has been edited by azaz: Dec 6 2009, 09:17 PM

[matigasngulo]

Gold broke through US$1,200 per ounce last week on rumors that the People's Bank of China might increase the percentage of gold in its reserves. The dollar, the euro, sterling and the yen all have good reasons to weaken, yet in our current global fiat money system, they have nothing to weaken against.

Global foreign exchange reserves are at record highs, but there is nothing solid for central banks to buy. This all raises the interesting question: are we seeing the beginning of the end of the fiat money floating exchange rate system that has prevailed since 1973? And could something closer to a gold standard replace it?

At the extreme, it is very unlikely that in the near future we will go back to a full gold standard. We're unlikely in five years time to be




wandering round with gold sovereigns or double eagles clanking in our pockets. Pity. However, it's quite possible for us to move some considerable distance towards a gold standard without actually getting to the final destination, and there are increasing signs that the world is heading in that direction.

The explosion in global liquidity in the past decade has had an effect on global central bank reserves, which increased 414% between 1998 and the second quarter of 2009 to $6.8 trillion, an annual rate of increase of 14.5%. This is more than three times the rate of increase of nominal gross world product (GWP) of 4.6%. Put another way, central bank reserves increased from 4.2% of GWP to 11.1% during the 10 years 1998-2008.

The world therefore has been flooded with liquidity; former Federal Reserve Alan Greenspan, his successor, Ben Bernanke, and to a lesser extent their counterparts in the European Central Bank, the Bank of England, the Bank of Japan and the People's Bank of China, have a lot to answer for. Effectively, they have by their own actions flooded the globe with paper money and made ordinary currency and short-term securities increasingly undesirable assets. It is thus not surprising that private-sector investors and even central banks themselves are looking for something better. India's purchase in October of 200 tonnes of International Monetary Fund (IMF) gold, at a then value of $6.7 billion, was not a fluke.

The central bank search for an alternative to paper money holdings naturally leads them in the direction of gold. Gold has very few uses, so theoretically could lose its value almost completely if the world's markets decided that holding gold was no more sensible than collecting old tram tickets. However, in practice, even in the disinflationary and economically ebullient 1980s and 1990s, the gold price dropped only to around $250 an ounce, a price equivalent to its extraction cost from the most efficient gold mining operations. (That cost is now around $400 per ounce.) After all, if investors had decided the stuff was of no interest, there's 50 years supply of it just lying around, so there would have been no need to produce any more, and no floor from mining costs on the gold price. In that case, gold would probably have dropped to around the $50 per ounce at which it becomes a plausible substitute for other metals in industrial uses.

So the world has bench-tested the Keynesian theory that gold is a barbarous relic and found it wanting. Even in the 1990s, a time of peace and apparent disinflationary prosperity, investors - including central banks - wanted to keep a certain portion of their reserves in gold. Ideologically driven decisions, such as then UK Chancellor of the Exchequer Gordon Brown's sale of half Britain's gold reserves in 1999-2002, quickly came back to haunt the fanatic, as inflation-free prosperity dissolved and the normal world of economic toil and monetary sloppiness returned.

There are three ways in which the world could move towards a gold standard without actually getting there. First, the world's central banks, particularly the ones like China and Japan with the biggest reserve pools, could increase the percentage of their reserves kept in gold. According to IMF data, that percentage declined from 13.9% to 9.8% during the great increase in central bank reserves from 1998 to 2008 even though the gold price more than trebled during that period.

A return to even the modest 1998 percentage of gold reserves would result in gold purchases of $324 billion, surely enough to shift the gold market a fair whack. A return to a still modest ratio of gold holdings of 20% of reserves, which prevailed as recently as 1994, would result in central bank gold purchases of $867 billion, about eight years' mine supply at current prices, and more than 15% of all the gold now in existence.

Second, the world's monetary authorities could start targeting the gold price as part of their monetary management, aiming to keep it within a certain range, thereby preventing excessive monetary expansion and dampening excessive exchange rate fluctuations. A "hard money" Federal Reserve chairman, for example, worried about the value of the dollar, could seek to keep the gold price between $900 and $1,000. He would sell gold from Fort Knox when, as now, the price was above that range, but would maintain a stated commitment to buying gold if and when the dollar had strengthened sufficiently that the price fell below $900.

Such a policy would have the advantage that it would not result directly in manipulating the value of other currencies through central bank purchases or sales, thus minimizing the chances of protectionist retaliation. That's an especially valuable advantage when, as at present, the world is in a difficult and lengthy recession. Of course, as the United States sold gold from Fort Knox, the dollar might still decline against other currencies even as it rose against gold.

Finally, the world's politicians could decide that unlimited money creation was a thoroughly bad thing, and impose restrictions upon their monetary authorities, attempting to move monetary creation to the kind of automatic, limited mechanism that a gold standard naturally imposes. As the United States moves into its 16th year of Greenspan/Bernanke sloppiness since the monetary relaxation began in February 1995, we hard-money types have come to think nostalgically, not of the gold standard period, which almost nobody now remembers, but of the period of monetary stringency, sound economy and inflation reduction under Fed chairman Paul Volcker and president Ronald Reagan, in the early 1980s.

Since even Volcker (now aged 82) will not live forever, it is necessary to Volckerize the Fed by some artificial statutory means, so whatever expansionary Princeton economics professor a deluded president may appoint to chair the institution, it is forced to follow a sound monetary policy. The best form of such a restriction would be to mandate that the Fed must keep the two-year average of the rates of growth of the M2, MZM and M3 monetary aggregates between 2% and 4% annually.

The average of several aggregates would be used to minimize the distortions from one aggregate or another wandering off in a funny direction through technological change. (For example MZM - the total amount of money available in an economy - increased exceptionally slowly compared to other aggregates during the 1970sm and M2, the narrower aggregate Greenspan occasionally glanced at, rose exceptionally slowly compared to other broad aggregates in 1995-2006.) That would prevent inflation from taking hold, while being sufficiently flexible to allow for technology-driven fluctuations in price levels and sufficiently expansionary to permit normal economic growth without deflation.

Such a program would mimic the gold standard, in which the increase in money supply depended on the rate of discovery of new gold, which fluctuated only slowly except with major gold discoveries such as California in 1849 and the Yukon in 1896-97. However, since the world's gold supply increases by less than 2% annually, an official gold standard may be thought somewhat deflationary - as well as giving apoplexy to the unfortunately numerous Keynesian economists who infest academia, officialdom and the media. A "Volcker Standard", if sufficiently constitutionally embedded that short-termist politicians could not override it, would give the same advantages as a gold standard, without the dangers of deflation or Keynesian heart failure.

In three ways therefore, official gold purchases, gold price currency targeting, and a quasi-gold Volcker Standard, we are likely to approach a gold standard ever closer in the years to come. Inflationists and official opinion will sneer at the possibility. However the markets are already making it inevitable, fueled as they are by the excessive global money creation of the last 15 years, and the money supply explosion since September 2008.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/KL09Dj01.html

This post has been edited by matigasngulo: Dec 8 2009, 06:48 AM

[higaynon]

They are speculating that China will lead the gold backup currency.

Well our ABL is still existing? Can we used that same gold again?

Or that gold that used to back up our ABL or " Ang Bagong Lipunan" currency is already gone?

This post has been edited by higaynon: Dec 8 2009, 07:50 AM

[azaz]

They are speculating that China will lead the gold backup currency.

Well our ABL is still existing? Can we used that same gold again?

Or that gold that used to back up our ABL or " Ang Bagong Lipunan" currency is already gone?

DNP Enterprises or the Diaz umbrella has blocked the redemption of all ABLs around the globe. Only Diaz or SGSR (Severino Garcia Santa Romana) certificates are honored, not exactly for redemption of its full value but for the recovery of those lost certificates. The Diaz umbrella is offering some finders fee for the SGSRs like what Mr. Allan Diggle of Vancouver BC seemed to have achieved. He got the SGSR CD (certificate of deposit) in China which was sold to a Chinese by an unnamed colonel close to Ex-Pres. Marcos.

Below was a message from Mr. Todd Alphine two years ago:

You were discouraged before when none of your media did anything about the tales of Santa Romana or yama$hita gold but what you have failed to realize is that your media is tight controlled to DISCOURAGE any more news about such gold. Your mediamen fail to understand that their own Boss cannot get very much published as such news articles are OFF LIMITS in all of your media in the Philippines. Anyhow, if you been following the MING on-going exposure of that so-called GAIA, you should realize that while it may be TRUE and LEGAL in that old PERU BOND being a debt collected against the U.S. Treasury, the whole story as to how the EKEKRs ended up with it stinks to me. Also I am now checking into RICK MARTIN as He was the man that said that Mr. Herman made his one page, NOT notarized transfer of the asset to RICK MARTIN ( which is actually not his real name ) and this RICK MARTIN just happened to become a VIP in all of this and He travels to many foreign countries selling the GAIA issued deed concept to anyone who would listen, then He and EKKER divorced each other and EKKER made a deal to pay him off, and since EKKER failed to keep the payment promises, then now RICJ MARTIN is maybe going to spill some of his knowledge to the SAMCO agents who are making their investigations in USA etc. Anyhow it would be nice IF YOU or any MADEUP NAME could log on and perhaps give some encouragement to say RONALD KIRZINGER and CENON C. MARCOS and that Professor Jaime Ramirez for them to do the correct and moral thing, that if they find that Prince Julian MORDEN Tallano (who is hiding from Ekkers people) then they could accept the old peace proposal that was acceptable as a quit-claim by the current Sultan Fuad Kiram of Sulu Sultanate, who finally convinced SAMCO that the Sulu Royal families would accept just 220,000 tons out of the 400,000 with the understanding that 90,000 of the remaining 180,000 was to be placed into a special TRUST like escrow for the Filipinos and future generations where the gold should be preserved and not sold off. That Sultan Fuad Kiram was even willing to allow those bad people( that is what I call those Trustees at that Don Julian Benitez Tallano and Don Gregorio Madrigal Acop Foundaion in the Philippines, to manage the other 90,000 for the tagean-Tallano estate. I have to admit it was a decent intelligent decision but SAMCO people did not like it, they wanted to go into the WORLD COURT and even the International Criminal Court and file claims that the 380,000 Mt must be returned immediately back to the Sulu Sultanate and allowed only for 20,000 tons be allowed to be sold by those Trustees, to pay off the real estate land taxes that Tagean-Tallano owned throughout the Philippines. I was the one that LEAKED OUT that agreement and that is why SAMCOGROUP became so upset against me, for posting that proposal and details at MING forum. Anyhow I told SAMCO to go to Hell and shove a golden two by four up their @$$. SAMCOthenstarted to make trouble for me working on contract at VICTORIA, so hat upset me even more, so I resigned. I took over as Managing Director for the ASIA NGO FOUNDATION and now at least SAMCO people have agreed to make up for their own cover-up and try to repair the damages, so they agreed to make endowments or award some large donations of money to the NGO Foundation. Anyhow I am now seeking away to try to get the Prince Tallano to come back and stand up in his own feet, as part of that old peace proposal was that SAMCO was asked by the Sultan Kiram, to sell 20 to 30,000 tons of the gold and lend the money to the tagean-Tallano Estate mainly to allow that estate to pay their damn taxes on the land they claim to have owned all over the Philippines. Anyhow it would have really stimulated your country as the INPUT of so much money would help to climate the poverty for millions of families. Anyhow, it seems the the DEVIL is supportive of the EKKER Group and that is why the Prince went into hiding. Do any of your media know how to contact that prince Julian MORDEN Tallano,as maybe with your help and the help of Ron Kirzinger, we can save at least 90,000 tons of gold for the Philippine people as the longer we do nothing, they will continue to shop out the gold from the BACK DOOR and it will be LOST FOREVER. The good news maybe is that SAMCO just is finishing up making final negotiations for release of s\gold deposits at two large banks in the name of Sultan Fuad Kiram grandfather and his Father other gold account. This however is good news for SAMCO and the Sulu Sultanate, but that is old gold that will be kepted by the Sulu Sultanate and will not be filtered down to the Philippines, as would the separate other deal for 50% of that 180,000 left after 220,000 of that 400,000 had been returned back to Sulu Sultanate, at least 50% of that 180,000 would be the 90,000 for your people and done in such a manner that the Philippine Government cannot steal that asset from the people ever again.

This post has been edited by azaz: Dec 8 2009, 09:31 PM

[African]

This is true without American influence

[matigasngulo]

trismegistos & Suzuka00, in a round-about way the Sundaland theory has received greater scientific scrutiny and credibility

http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=219387

btw if Dubai happens to have had an ABL, who does it go to when they get into serious trouble ?

This post has been edited by matigasngulo: Dec 12 2009, 09:29 AM

[azaz]

Welcome African.
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DNP Enterprises/Diaz umbrella is firming its hold to all Santa Romana assets or assets that originated from Santa Romana around the globe. If Dubai did have ABLs then they are now without value. Maybe ABLs' hope is someday a compromise between the Diaz and Marcos umbrella would come up. But who/what will make this happen?

This post has been edited by azaz: Dec 13 2009, 01:01 AM

[matigasngulo]

So, there are discussions going on in the background ?
that's bad for people like Dubai who suddenly discover that they only have held wealth on paper. btw gold is going down in price and there are rumor of it only being tungsten LOL but i think Mr. Diaz would have been smart enough to know good assayers etc.

[trismegistos]

trismegistos & Suzuka00, in a round-about way the Sundaland theory has received greater scientific scrutiny and credibility

http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=219387

Sundaland theory of Oppenheimer and Solheim is actually more scientific and credible, I find it strange that orthodox academicians continue to patronize obsolete science.

This is another blow to the North to South migration theory.

I respect the ardous task of the linguists to classify and to create a family tree of various languages and dialects. Such an ardous task especially if one will specialized a very challenging field of Austronesian languages.

I have only one or two reservation/s in the "Out of Taiwan Theory" of the linguist Bellwood and that is how did he made an arbitrary origin of Taiwan which is almost like a dead branch. The rest of the divergence I agreed. Another is the timeline. Mitochondrial studies and other genetic studies are proving that much of the migrations happened going into or towards to Taiwan and not out of and these migrations happen earlier than the supposed 3-4,000 years ago initial branching.

So much a better Origin would have to be the next in line in the branch which is the Philippine isles. And what better impetus to fast track maritime technologies for possible migrations than the slowly rising sea levels, volcanic eruptions, tsunami etc afforded by the various inlands swallowed by large bodies of water creating the many islets, islands that we know called the Philippine isles. And this happened during the last rising of sea levels during the melting of the ice caps during the end of the last Ice Age about so 7,000 years ago perhaps.

It is interesting to point that various legends of the Taiwanese aborigenes pointed out that they came from the Nanyang, which means Southern seas. We can say myths are myths but we have to remember they carry some embryonic truths in them embellished in a symbolical metaphorical manner.

From there I have much in agreement with the Linguist theory: Out of Taiwan theory except that it should be Out of Philippines/Indonesia or rather Sundaland theory.

It is interesting to note that the Okinawans have also the word "Mayumi" in their vocabulary which has similar meaning to the local version.

This post has been edited by trismegistos: Dec 13 2009, 05:05 AM

[matigasngulo]

the way i understood it this the genetic studies clarify the migration of people around 10 000 BC right after the ice age, when a greater land mass a.k.a Sundaland can be assumed for SEA, while northern Asia was still covered with glaciers. so it's not impossible that some people moved back south again later in 3000-1000 BC (when ironically sea-levels were even much higher than now), causing the linguistic distribution as it is. but it doesn't exclude the possibility that when the migration into Polynesia started that again a northward movement took place, starting from the Philippines.

[trismegistos]

the way i understood it this the genetic studies clarify the migration of people around 10 000 BC right after the ice age, when a greater land mass a.k.a Sundaland can be assumed for SEA, while northern Asia was still covered with glaciers. so it's not impossible that some people moved back south again later in 3000-1000 BC (when ironically sea-levels were even much higher than now), causing the linguistic distribution as it is. but it doesn't exclude the possibility that when the migration into Polynesia started that again a northward movement took place, starting from the Philippines.

But genetic studies from here... http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/paul-rod...d-spread-taiwan - have showed:

The new theory, published in the journal Molecular Biology and Evolution, is likely to draw bitter criticism from supporters of the old consensus, based on linguistics, that the area is populated today by descendants of a rice-growing people called the Austronesians who expanded from Taiwan just 4,000 years ago. “Some quite forceful archaeologists have been extremely reluctant to accept this,” says Professor Richards. “And I haven’t met a single linguist willing to give up the out-of-Taiwan argument.”

The Austronesians supposedly supplanted the indigenous hunter-gatherers, who first arrived 50,000 years ago yet were considered so insignificant that they have not even been named.

“That was a great mistake,” Professor Richards says. His team is the first to use the full mitochondrial genome rather than fragments, giving it a much more detailed picture of population movements in the distant past. Their results show that the biggest migration went not from Taiwan, but to it, and occurred much earlier.

In the Age of Exploration and Colonization, the reverse direction is true.

As I have said I have much in agreement with the linguist theory except that Taiwan is not the homeland of the Malayo-Polynesians as Bellwood arbitrarily puts it as the various genetic studies confirm. From there the branching of the family tree of various languages and dialects is somewhat scientific.

Various legends of the Chinese and Japanese people puts a souther origin of their homelands...

Japanese linguists have for decades uncovered significant Austronesian influence, mostly interpreted as specifically Malayo-Polynesian influence, in the Japanese language. If we accept Solheim's views that the transfer of Yayoi culture to Japan was a gradual process that took several thousands of years, we must wonder if Japanese mythology and legendary history conveys any information on Southeast Asia's past.

The "other worlds" of Japanese mythology often double as foreign countries in Japanese literature. The most important were known as Takamagahara "Plain of the High Heaven," Nenokuni (also Yominokuni) "Root Country (or 'Motherland') and Tokoyonokuni "Eternal Land."

Since the Meiji Era, Japanese scholars have attempted to connect these fairylands with known foreign geography.

All these locations are associated with the ocean and long sea voyages in the direction of the South. Furthermore in Okinawa and the Ryukyus, these lands are known by names like Niraikanai, Nirai, Nira, Niza, etc. depending on the location. Again, the semi-mythical locations are said placed in the ocean requiring a long journey and tend to be located toward the South.

Japanese legends of fairy lands like Yominokuni, Nenokuni and Tokoyonokuni are linked in the literature with the Chinese locations of the Fusang Tree, the Land of Yellow Springs and Penglai (Horaisan), which were generally envisioned as somewhere beyond the Southeastern Sea of Chinese texts. Japanese scholar Yanagita Kunio suggested that Nenokuni was a type of Japanese "Motherland" from which early Japanese migrated to Japan.

source: http://sambali.blogspot.com/2006/12/japane...ds-article.html

As I have said, myths and legends carry some kernels of truth in a metaphorical manner.

This post has been edited by trismegistos: Dec 13 2009, 08:37 AM

[matigasngulo]

i wonder if Professor Rodgers is connected to the human genome study...

since you are looking into the connection with the Ryu Kyu Islands and Japan, maybe you have noticed the similarites between the legend of

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momotarō

and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biag_ni_Lam-ang fighting against Demons with animal allies LOL

[trismegistos]

Ok. I'll take a look. he he


From the link you have posted... http://www.genomeweb.com/arrays/hugo-pan-a...+%C3%9Cberfeed)

In general, haplotype diversity was highest in southern Asia and dwindled in samples taken further north.

Most East Asian haplotypes — some 90 percent — turned up in Southeast or Central-South Asia. But more of these haplotypes were unique to Southeast Asia: about half of East Asian haplotypes were present only in Southeast Asia, the researchers reported, compared with the five percent of East Asian haplotypes that were found in Central-South Asia alone.

Such patterns indicate that migration from Southeast Asia into East and North Asia, the team explained. They proposed a model whereby ancestors of modern day Asian populations settled in India before migrating to Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, and the Philippines. From there, it appears one or more groups traveled north, mixing with other populations already living in these regions.

Accdg to the Chinese, did they put their homeland in Nanyang, Kunlun, Fusang, Penglai?

[matigasngulo]

No, not that i know of. Kunlun / Shambhala in the West though was the home of Huang Di. Fusang was associated with the far East, so maybe Ryukyus.

Ancient Chinese and Hawaians share a similar Myth of restraining the Sun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houyi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Māui_(Hawaiian_mythology)

[trismegistos]

It's very interesting both legends have dog, pheasant or rooster motiffs which are very common in China, and Southeast Asia. http://sambali.blogspot.com/2006/10/articl...-southeast.html and http://sambali.blogspot.com/2005_01_24_archive.html
connected with Tala or Batala or Bathala or Venus, the saviour of the last deluvial period, the bringer of rice agriculture, deity of maritime austronesians accdg to that links.

The homeland of the Hawaiians is termed as Hawaiiki or Javaiki. Java could mean Java Major which is Borneo or could mean Southeast Asia as a whole just like Suvarnadvipa is.


Kunlun people were said to be dark short people or pygmies as in our local Aetas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunlun_Nu or http://sambali.blogspot.com/2007/02/kunlun-glossary.html .

Kunlun (崑崙) is the name of a mountain and/or island in Chinese literature, usually interpreted as two different locations both known more descriptively as 崑崙山 "Mount Kunlun" (Kunlun-shan).

It is generally proposed that the earlier and "original" Kunlun was a mountain range west of China and found near the home of the "Queen Mother of the West." A later Mount Kunlun is located in the Southern Sea often identified as Pulo Condore off the south coast of Vietnam or more generally with the southeastern archipelago to include the Philippines and Maluku, or Southeast Asia as a whole. However, there is considerable evidence suggesting that the earlier Kunlun is associated also at the same time as the western location with the region southeast of China. I will suggest that in this case Kunlunshan or Mount Kunlun as associated with the cosmic Ruo Tree represents the western counterpart of the Fusang Tree in the double mountain or double-peaked mountain theme.

Fusang accdg to some researcher is California or Mexico accdg to the distance mentioned.
But PKM seemed to indicate Nusantao location.

Fusang tree looks like an entwined Balete fig tree or other similar species.

In the earliest Chinese literature, "Fu Sang" describes a legendary solar tree on which Xihe hangs the Ten Suns to dry after their diurnal journeys. In latter literatures, it is a place where Buddhism is brought in the fifth century.

This latter location has been variously identified by different researchers as North America, Mexico, Peru, Hokkaido, Siberia, southeastern Japan and Taiwan to name a few suggestions. It may be that this place is related to the solar Fusang Tree of earlier legendary history.

"Sang" 桑 refers to the mulberry tree, and "fu" 扶 means "supporting," referring apparently to the large size and interwining and thus self-supporting branches of the Fusang Tree.

Located in the "Southeastern Sea" at the top of a mountain, I believe it should be placed either in Taiwan or Luzon, probably the latter as it appears to be associated with the cosmic mountain where the Suns are born (in other mythologies).

This post has been edited by trismegistos: Dec 13 2009, 10:05 AM

[filipinoy]

Sundaland theory of Oppenheimer and Solheim is actually more scientific and credible, I find it strange that orthodox academicians continue to patronize obsolete science.

This is another blow to the North to South migration theory.

I respect the ardous task of the linguists to classify and to create a family tree of various languages and dialects. Such an ardous task especially if one will specialized a very challenging field of Austronesian languages.

I have only one or two reservation/s in the "Out of Taiwan Theory" of the linguist Bellwood and that is how did he made an arbitrary origin of Taiwan which is almost like a dead branch. The rest of the divergence I agreed. Another is the timeline. Mitochondrial studies and other genetic studies are proving that much of the migrations happened going into or towards to Taiwan and not out of and these migrations happen earlier than the supposed 3-4,000 years ago initial branching.

So much a better Origin would have to be the next in line in the branch which is the Philippine isles. And what better impetus to fast track maritime technologies for possible migrations than the slowly rising sea levels, volcanic eruptions, tsunami etc afforded by the various inlands swallowed by large bodies of water creating the many islets, islands that we know called the Philippine isles. And this happened during the last rising of sea levels during the melting of the ice caps during the end of the last Ice Age about so 7,000 years ago perhaps.

It is interesting to point that various legends of the Taiwanese aborigenes pointed out that they came from the Nanyang, which means Southern seas. We can say myths are myths but we have to remember they carry some embryonic truths in them embellished in a symbolical metaphorical manner.

From there I have much in agreement with the Linguist theory: Out of Taiwan theory except that it should be Out of Philippines/Indonesia or rather Sundaland theory.

It is interesting to note that the Okinawans have also the word "Mayumi" in their vocabulary which has similar meaning to the local version.

the word for inom is closed to the Japanese word for drink too, okinawa is close taiwan maybe there is some contact or trading or maybe they used to be austronesians too

Oppenheimer book is not really that recent genetics as you said since it was published more than a DECADE AGO
The problem stems ultimately from the fact that Oppenheimer is a geneticist, not a linguist, an historian or an archaeologist; he is therefore bound to make errors when trying to interpret linguistic, historical or archaeological evidence. Whilst it is always important to analyse and consider as many different types of evidence as possible when trying to understand an historical or pre-historical period or event, it is also important to recognise that each piece of evidence must be considered on its own terms, and that such different types of evidence which require such different methods of interpretation can very rarely be shoe-horned together in an accurate way
He mixes things from mythical writings like Atlantis or Eden, many myths contradicts with genetics like N.American myths when most research points to the west

looks like Oppemheimer focuses more on polynesians, who are obviously partly originated in E. indonesia

Tho i do believe the aeta & similar groups came from Sundaland before the last ice age

i know NanYang usually refers to SEAsia
does NanYang have two meanings?(Simplified Chinese: (南阳), Traditional Chinese: (南陽); pinyin: Nányáng) 南 Nán-South,阳 yáng-sun (the south side of a mountain, or the north side of a river, which in Chinese is called Yang meaning "sunny").
anyways NanYang is not even an austronesian word, does the taiwan aborigines have their legend in an austronesian language?

Taiwanese Aborigines said they came from the north, myths from aborigine groups is inconsistent with each other
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amis_people#I..._classification



Genetic Evidence of out of taiwan/china(north)theory
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/01/outoftaiwan/
http://www.pnclink.org/pnc2009/english/Pre...pt-MarieLin.pdf (2009 STUDY)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/P...pdf/9837834.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/P...?tool=pmcentrez
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?c...l=pubmed_DocSum
http://www.pnas.org/content/104/12/4834.full
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/323/5913/527
http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2001_v68_p432.pdf
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/8/146
http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-9297%2807%2961626-7
http://www.rogerblench.info/Genetics/Genev...aper%202004.pdf
http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:do...al.pbio.0030281
http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:do...al.pbio.0030247
http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content/full/160/1/289
http://www.shiba-dog.de/dingo-en.htm (dog lolz)


Almost all Austronesian groups are agricultural, rice growers (except some pacific is. where theres really no rice fields available)
archeological evidence shows the first cultivation of rice were around 7-5000BC
Rice came from the north, Wild rice originated from the footsteps of the Himalayas
Some groups in taiwan are not really rice farmers
Terracing techniques in the philippines, indonesia, taiwan & madagascar are the same as those in China, outside SEA & s.China is diffirent
SW.China



Filipinos are Mongoloids, ALL mongoloids came from the north, mongoloids developed their asian characteristics & features because of the ice age/blowing cold weather & some these features changes as they move south, this is also true with the Native american mongoloids

Because groups of people who have didnt come from the north & have always stayed around the equator/tropics will have retain features that they have when they left africa like the Australians, Aetas, Andanamese & Papuans did.


i dont think theres a super-clear answer yet


but it would be nice to see if more evidences comes out proving that sunken parts of the area surrounding the Philippines is the Lost City of ATLANTIS as Oppenheimer said & it is the garden of Eden.
And how he said Civilizations of China, India, Mesopotamia, Egypt and the eastern Mediterranean originated from an area around the Philippines

This post has been edited by filipinoy: Dec 13 2009, 10:00 PM