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Unified NE Asian Kingdom (Japan + Korea + Mongolia)
Eidolon
post Jun 16 2009, 08:24 PM
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QUOTE (thehorsemen @ Jun 16 2009, 09:20 PM) *
Only a declaration of war if that country feels threatened, because maybe there's reasons that china's neighbors hate her.


The reason is simple: China is no longer a weakling that gets pushed around, but is now ready to defend her own interests. People who grew comfortable with an effeminate and subservient China hate that fact.
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nitama
post Jun 16 2009, 08:25 PM
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QUOTE (thehorsemen @ Jun 16 2009, 09:20 PM) *
Only a declaration of war if that country feels threatened, because maybe there's reasons that china's neighbors hate her.


The choice is between submitting and resisting. Both of these choices have their own implications. It has been the same game for thousands of years, the Mongolians should know something about it.
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thehorsemen
post Jun 16 2009, 08:28 PM
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Yeah, and china should know about paranoia and distorting views as well.
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nitama
post Jun 16 2009, 08:34 PM
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QUOTE (thehorsemen @ Jun 16 2009, 09:28 PM) *
Yeah, and china should know about paranoia and distorting views as well.


Haven't you heard of media spin, it's the newest trend around the world.
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thehorsemen
post Jun 16 2009, 08:36 PM
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Yeah, china would take the gold if it were an olympic sport, and the chinazi's would be stroking their d!cks to the win.
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nitama
post Jun 16 2009, 08:40 PM
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QUOTE (thehorsemen @ Jun 16 2009, 09:36 PM) *
Yeah, china would take the gold if it were an olympic sport, and the chinazi's would be stroking their d!cks to the win.


That belongs to the Americans I'm afraid. Their media network is far more ahead of Chinese ones. A lot can be learned from them.
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thehorsemen
post Jun 16 2009, 08:44 PM
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Yeah because a government controlled media obviously can't be more distorted than free media.
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nitama
post Jun 16 2009, 09:00 PM
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QUOTE (thehorsemen @ Jun 16 2009, 09:44 PM) *
Yeah because a government controlled media obviously can't be more distorted than free media.


Watch zietgiest and money masters, there is a lot more going on then what you see in the "free media". The world is nothing more than just giant a farm. The day that nation states were created we ceased being free. Every country when you think about it is really just a company and it's citizens the workers. You just have the choice of choosing who you work for but in the end you are still just a worker. It would be best if no governments were needed but that would be anarchy. Well there's my rant, have a nice day.

This post has been edited by nitama: Jun 16 2009, 09:00 PM
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thehorsemen
post Jun 16 2009, 09:03 PM
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That doesn't mean that china's safe from it, nor is it right all 'round, but alot of china's is just laughable I.E.: Koreans stealing soymilk, the michael phelps debacle, ect.
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Eidolon
post Jun 16 2009, 09:25 PM
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QUOTE (thehorsemen @ Jun 16 2009, 10:03 PM) *
That doesn't mean that china's safe from it, nor is it right all 'round, but alot of china's is just laughable I.E.: Koreans stealing soymilk, the michael phelps debacle, ect.


Most people in the world, including Chinese, realize that Chinese media is heavily biased and that it serves the interests of the ruling elite.

But they've yet to do the same for Western media.

That's the difference.
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nitama
post Jun 16 2009, 09:42 PM
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QUOTE (thehorsemen @ Jun 16 2009, 10:03 PM) *
That doesn't mean that china's safe from it, nor is it right all 'round, but alot of china's is just laughable I.E.: Koreans stealing soymilk, the michael phelps debacle, ect.



No China is not safe from it. China is just one of the corporations that's competing for control. There are three major "corporations" that are competing for control. You can guess who. Any of the "corporations" gaining an edge over the other would create a monopoly and that's not good for the customers or workers. A balance of power between the three would be the only sensible solution for this situation. All this talk about soy milk and Michael Phelps in the end don't really matter. Culture, ethnic group, customs they are just brands that people buy into. In the end you are you and what matters to you should be yourself and how things that happen will affect you. I feel that people drag too much pride into these discussions. It's better to detach yourself from personal feelings on issues and examine how something can work with you or work against you. If the current form for government can be replace by something better it would be great, but does anyone know how to do it.

This post has been edited by nitama: Jun 16 2009, 10:03 PM
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thehorsemen
post Jun 16 2009, 09:56 PM
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lol Yeah, that's why most beleive that crap.
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Mowgli
post Jun 16 2009, 11:59 PM
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QUOTE (Eidolon @ Jun 17 2009, 10:02 AM) *
Korea and Japan both depend on Western consumers for their wealth. They both depend on China for labor. The whole economic system is interlinked and globalized. With respect to market capitalism, the whole idea of "countering" has long fallen out of favor. Since the political elites of each country depend on the functioning of this system to hold onto power, they're not going to head into any confrontation that might endanger the system.

Militarily speaking, Korea and Japan are not independent nations. They are part of the NATO chain of command, which is headed by the US. This situation may change as US power declines - it depends on what the US does in the coming decades. Either way, I'm not afraid of Korea and Japan forming a military union. They have neither the demographics nor the military advantage to threaten China in an existential sense. This is not the 19th century anymore. Though Korea and Japan are certainly no slouches, China has the capability to ward both of them off. It's the West that we are worried about, because it's the West that has been responsible for both Korea and Japan gaining a technological and military edge on China. Almost all of Japan's advantage during World War II came from purchasing Western technology and scientific expertise. Without such advantages, Japan was never able to so much as gain a foothold in China - see Imjin War.

(Even then, they were helped along by the Portuguese arquebus)


You are contradicting what you described earlier.
You said, it's not 19th century and yet you compare modern Korea and Japan to 16th century.

If China is not worry about Korea-Japan military union then why did you post here at first place?
As I have already posted it before, China is not that strong, even China depends its firearm technology from European (Russia) and American.
The only difference is the Nuke, China have it and SKorea-Japan don't have it.

Korea-Japan union might not be as NATO strength or compared to Russia, but it can easily counter China's military and politics. Like getting Nuke and long distance missiles. This is why there is talk of union not because they like to but have to.

Also, China doesn't have much real war experiences like US led NATO members, we don't know if Chinese made weapons are effective and superior.
We will know for sure if China do have what it claims tobe if Chinese proved themselves in next war.
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Eidolon
post Jun 17 2009, 01:45 AM
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QUOTE (Mowgli @ Jun 17 2009, 12:59 AM) *
You are contradicting what you described earlier.
You said, it's not 19th century and yet you compare modern Korea and Japan to 16th century.

If China is not worry about Korea-Japan military union then why did you post here at first place?
As I have already posted it before, China is not that strong, even China depends its firearm technology from European (Russia) and American.
The only difference is the Nuke, China have it and SKorea-Japan don't have it.

Korea-Japan union might not be as NATO strength or compared to Russia, but it can easily counter China's military and politics. Like getting Nuke and long distance missiles. This is why there is talk of union not because they like to but have to.

Also, China doesn't have much real war experiences like US led NATO members, we don't know if Chinese made weapons are effective and superior.
We will know for sure if China do have what it claims tobe if Chinese proved themselves in next war.


Look, Korea and Japan are already effectively in a military union via the US Pacific Alliance. Both of your countries follow NATO's chain of command and are backed by the US military. This is far more threatening to China than a strictly Korea-Japan military union would be, because the US is far more powerful than both of you combined. If China can get the US out of East Asia in exchange for Korea and Japan entering into an alliance, I think Chinese leaders would accept it, since that would be a step down from now, where it's US + Korea + Japan vs. China.

If you want me to worry about a Korea-Japan union, you'll have to tell me what it would have that the current US-Korea-Japan union doesn't already. Nukes and long distance missiles? The US already has your countries under its nuclear umbrella.
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Mowgli
post Jun 17 2009, 08:32 PM
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QUOTE (Eidolon @ Jun 17 2009, 03:45 PM) *
Look, Korea and Japan are already effectively in a military union via the US Pacific Alliance. Both of your countries follow NATO's chain of command and are backed by the US military. This is far more threatening to China than a strictly Korea-Japan military union would be, because the US is far more powerful than both of you combined. If China can get the US out of East Asia in exchange for Korea and Japan entering into an alliance, I think Chinese leaders would accept it, since that would be a step down from now, where it's US + Korea + Japan vs. China.

If you want me to worry about a Korea-Japan union, you'll have to tell me what it would have that the current US-Korea-Japan union doesn't already. Nukes and long distance missiles? The US already has your countries under its nuclear umbrella.


You have add Australia as well to that special connection.

USA do realize they can't focus on pacific and NATO at same time when they are already war with Islamic fundamentalist motivated terrorist organizations and various military operations around the world. Not long ago, there was some kind of discussion about forging Australia, Japan and South Korea to counter growing China's treat in Asia pacific region.

By going alone for Australia, Japan and South Korea they can't get to control over nuke and other WMDs, so special union between SK-JPN is one of the way.
Combining Naval and airforce operations could effectively utilize not just to counter China, but keeping peace & power balance in Pacific.

US already have several strategic military camps and establishments in Australia that strike any Asian countries, with their subs and aircraft carriers within the region can be sufficient. But both South Korea and Japan also want to produce nuke subs and aircraft carrier. Just imagine with US's and SK-JPN along with Australia. It's another NATO like military alliance in the East.
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thehorsemen
post Jun 17 2009, 08:52 PM
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Can we get to discussing the mongolian side or not, or is the korea vs. china debate more important in the mongolian chat?
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Eidolon
post Jun 17 2009, 10:56 PM
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QUOTE (Mowgli @ Jun 17 2009, 09:32 PM) *
You have add Australia as well to that special connection.

USA do realize they can't focus on pacific and NATO at same time when they are already war with Islamic fundamentalist motivated terrorist organizations and various military operations around the world. Not long ago, there was some kind of discussion about forging Australia, Japan and South Korea to counter growing China's treat in Asia pacific region.

By going alone for Australia, Japan and South Korea they can't get to control over nuke and other WMDs, so special union between SK-JPN is one of the way.
Combining Naval and airforce operations could effectively utilize not just to counter China, but keeping peace & power balance in Pacific.

US already have several strategic military camps and establishments in Australia that strike any Asian countries, with their subs and aircraft carriers within the region can be sufficient. But both South Korea and Japan also want to produce nuke subs and aircraft carrier. Just imagine with US's and SK-JPN along with Australia. It's another NATO like military alliance in the East.


Like I said before, the decline of US power might force you into a military union with the remaining players, but it wouldn't really be more powerful than the one you are in already. Australia is an US ally, so in the event of a major war it is already expected to contribute. China realizes that it's surrounded by a powerful military union of the US and its vassals/allies. Going at it alone will not significantly modify the geopolitical calculations in the area, except that, if your union start to become threatening, there might be an opportunity for China to hook up with a weakening US to counter you. The whole basis of American geostrategy in East Asia is to prevent the rise of a dominant, hegemonic power. They wouldn't create one themselves, at least not willingly. Americans do, I think, still have some lingering worry about the Japanese and their martial culture - Japan is one of the very few countries in history that's dared to attack the US mainland.

To this end, I would expect that Japan will be allowed to re-militarize more and more in the coming years in order to counter China - but this re-militarization will be scrutinized by the Americans to make sure that they're still the ones calling the shots.

Anyways, it feels like we're just repeating the same overall points over and over. As thehorsemen points out, we're no longer even talking about Mongolia anymore so the discussion should really be moved elsewhere.

This post has been edited by Eidolon: Jun 17 2009, 10:59 PM
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SelectivelyObjec...
post Jun 18 2009, 04:07 AM
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Have an ally is fine, but having an ally targeting China is not the smartest thing you can do:

First, in modern warfare, all the three countries are extremely vunearlable to all means of attack, convential or nuclear.

Secondly, currently both Japan and Korea are merely vassal states for the US, both's military force are under strict controlled by the US military, both depend on US military very much, from its structure to its equipments, basically satellite forces.For instance, Japanese' military is sole designed to assistant US force in case of war, so I seriously doubt they can do anything without US's permission or pushing US aside.

And both countries need to pay huge $$$ for the US force occpuied them, as for Mongolia, its too weak to be considered as relevant.

Thirdly, sure the US is on steep decline, however the Japan is on a even steeper decline than the US, so to say Japan can do something if US is weak is simply fantasy.

Actually the past 150 years when Japan is in the leading position in Asia is rather an exception (when the then tech-leader, the west colonial powers enter Asia, this country simply surrend without even put a fight, so they access to the west techs earlier comparing to the rest asian countries) than a generality.

Lastly, an arm race with China is like commite sucide, first China now can access to way more resource than all those countries combined, actually in terms of raw industry output, many key heavy indstury output index in China, like steel, machineary, chemicals, etc, China is already 3-5 times of the US, and account for 40-50% of the entire world's output, secondly, like I mentioned, all those three small countries are extremely vunearlabe in the modern warfare.

For instance, it only take 5-6 short-range nuclear missiles to take out Korea, thanks to the 50+ nuclear reactors in the croward japan, only 5 or so middle range missiles is sufficient to take out Japan.

The warheads we need is far far less than the nuclear warheads needed to maintain a nuclear balance with giant countries like United States (needs huge amount of much more expensive ICBMs) or Russia (need huge amount of expensive Long Range Missiles and some middle range ones).

As for mongolia, the country is irrelevant in a modern war.

So a so-called NE ally to replace the current US military force in Asis is like replacing a devil with an imp, I am sure Chinese leadership will support your actions there.

As for Australia, its simply a tiny country who is all for money, so in case of a war, I dont believe it will pick side, nor it matter much, actually current Austrailia leadership is somehow "pro-China", he has a Chinese name, can speak Chinese and his daughter marry to a Hong Kong business one who has some importan frens in Beijing, so I dont see Austrailia will play an ally role with you, you know the world politcs is simply a brutal power game, the Austraila at the moment dont even want to openly form an ally with US against China even through US is at least 10X more powerful than you, what makes you believe they wil ally with you guys who are way weaker?

You know a famous anglo menaltiy is: If you can not beat your enemy, then join them, thats their mentality, in the future with China's growing and US's countinuing decline, the likelihood that Austrailia form an ally with you is less than it form an ally with China.

So all in all, I like to say, an NE link for pure culture or friendiship or ecnonomy benefits is fine, but to form a military ally against a rising China is pure fantasy and too naive to talk about world politcs and military.
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thehorsemen
post Jun 18 2009, 09:09 AM
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Yeah, and ten years ago, china was (And still is for the most part) too weak to be considered relevant.
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SoonToBeDaddy
post Jun 23 2009, 04:28 PM
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Everything is made in China, or Taiwan. Sure, China is the factory of the world.

But you forget that when people are fighting for a cause they know is right, people will fight even if they know they can not win. Sometimes, due to this, impossible victories end up being forged instead.
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